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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    PNB - Pulse, not breathing?
    Probably Pulseless, Not Breathing.

    We would refer to that as a "Code" or "Working a Code".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Doing manual CPR in any sort of effective manor requires one to be in an "unsafe" situation - standing and not wearing a seatbelt while the vehicle is in motion.

    Well, searching for/rescuing victims and squirting water on the fire from the inside is inherently "unsafe" and it's also..............wait for it................................................ .....PART OF THE JOB!!!!!
    Well ..... No

    If there is a code, and we are on-duty, there is a legal requirement to work the code unless they have a DNR or they have injuries or have been down long enough to make resisutation unlikley.

    We do not have a legal requirement to search or make entry into a structure fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    How do you 'fix' that if you're a chief in a small VFD and can either send 2 guys to FF1 or fuel the truck for another week? (Assuming you can convince the guys to drive 4 hours round-trip twice a week for 6 months).
    My state appears to be somewhat similar to what FyredUp stated for Wisconsin. There are a number of fixed site "public" training academies across the state and offer a lot of good training opportunities. However, the vast majority of training takes place at the local level, particularly entry-level training that would prepare one for the FF1 test.

    The instructors and curriculum are "state approved" and the classes are often run thru the Community College system for funding and administration purposes. Most classes are free or have minimal fees (usually for materials used - like some sheets of plywood for the roof simulator in a ventilation class).

    Typically, a FD "hosts" the training classes. Classroom portions are held in the station. Hands on portions are often done there too or somewhere in the community if possible. Sometimes the training is a "closed class" for that department's members if they have enough people attending - like an annual hazmat refresher that everybody needs. Oftentimes, the training is opened up to other FDs in the area if there is still open spots.

    It's pretty common for a couple of VFDs to get together to "host" the 160+ hour entry-level training course since each wouldn't have enough new members in need of the training on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well ..... No

    If there is a code, and we are on-duty, there is a legal requirement to work the code unless they have a DNR or they have injuries or have been down long enough to make resisutation unlikley.

    We do not have a legal requirement to search or make entry into a structure fire.
    And the buffoonery continues. This is nothing but a "straw man" argument.

    You specifically stated that you would provide the CPR because it's "part of the job".

    Searching for/rescuing victims and interior firefighting is also "part of the job" whether or not an actual "legal requirement" exists!!!!

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    Getting many volunteers in our area through 468 hours of training is virtually impossible. Many of our volunteers don't get enough vacation time to miss that many weekends, and if they did, they wouldn't have any left to fight fire. We have absolutely zero protection at our jobs, and many employers will not permit employees to miss work for anything outside of a major, major fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    Getting many volunteers in our area through 468 hours of training is virtually impossible. Many of our volunteers don't get enough vacation time to miss that many weekends, and if they did, they wouldn't have any left to fight fire. We have absolutely zero protection at our jobs, and many employers will not permit employees to miss work for anything outside of a major, major fire.

    Some folks simply refuse the accept this reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    And the buffoonery continues. This is nothing but a "straw man" argument.

    You specifically stated that you would provide the CPR because it's "part of the job".

    Searching for/rescuing victims and interior firefighting is also "part of the job" whether or not an actual "legal requirement" exists!!!!
    No.

    The fact is while doing CPR in the back of an ambo does have some risk, it is limited and can generally be controlled by smooth driving techniques.

    The risk is associatted with entering a burning structure is dependant on a range of factors including the condition of the structure itself and the fire conditions, to the training and experience of the folks on the scene, the amount of manpower on-scene, the water supply, weather (such as snowwload on the roof) and the command structure.

    How safe is it to make entry depends on all of these factors. Entry is not an automatic "part of the job", unlike CPR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    I'd say you have sized up the situation very well. In our case, the Texas Forest Service is our main training provider. They are now the Texas A&M Forest Service, and nearly the vast majority of their trainings are held in College Station. For us, the drive to College Station is the equivalent of driving from Chicago to Detroit. It isn't very practical. We don't have anyone on the department that could afford that kind of training. Our department's budget might not even be able to pay for the fuel, much less room or anything else.

    Add unfunded mandates for us, and we are gone. We don't have a departmental pumper (or structure gear or SCBA for most of our members), so even if we do train for FF1, what exactly are we training for? We have wildland trucks and wildland gear. We don't have any hydrants in our area that can support a pumper if we had one.

    We spend most of our time training for wildland fire and medical assists/medivac landing zones. We do some extraction training. We are equipped for those things, and we have people on the department with enough experience to train for those things. We have tried to get Wildland FF certified, and have been trying to since October, although thus far we have been unable to get the appropriate training local enough for us to become certified. No way the state ever provides us a viable option for FFI.



    That's how our state generally works. Currently, the state sees us as expendable. It is easier for us to get accidental death/disability insurance reimbursed from the state than it is to get training or PPE. With a view like that, why would we want these same people regulating us?
    Thanks for the explanation.. I don't envy your position in the slightest.
    It does beg a follow-up question, though: What is your town's perception of your departments capabilities. Are they aware that you're primarily equipped and trained for EMS/wildland and that your structural firefighting capabilities are lagging? (please don't read that the wrong way). If the FD has been upfront about their capabilities, and the citizens are alright with it, then at least everyone is aware.. It's when departments don't acknowledge, or actively hide, these deficiencies and lead the public to think they are more then they really are that everyone should be concerned.

    Training-wise, as others have mentioned.. Working with other VFD's in the area can help with the cost and distance associated with training can would be a good way to get a big chunk of your area up to some semblance of certification. Though training may not be your first priority if just getting adequate PPE for your members is a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well ..... No

    If there is a code, and we are on-duty, there is a legal requirement to work the code unless they have a DNR or they have injuries or have been down long enough to make resisutation unlikley.

    We do not have a legal requirement to search or make entry into a structure fire.
    You may not a legal obligation but you for sure should have a moral obligation to do the job. Everyone has raised their hand and said pick me to do this job be it volunteer or career. Everyone also knew going in that there are dangers to the job. Your statement is pretty damn thin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    Getting many volunteers in our area through 468 hours of training is virtually impossible. Many of our volunteers don't get enough vacation time to miss that many weekends, and if they did, they wouldn't have any left to fight fire. We have absolutely zero protection at our jobs, and many employers will not permit employees to miss work for anything outside of a major, major fire.
    Here, at least, there are usually options when it comes to taking long course like FF1 or EMT. Usually they'll have one track that is during the evening twice a week and another that is a single weekend day.. both usually take 6 months. Sometimes there are quicker-paced options like 5-days a week or every Sat/Sun.. for those that can schedule it.

    Even the twice-weekly or weekend type courses suck, I'll be honest. It's a long time to give up two weeknights or a weekend day.. but at least it doesn't require burning vacation. I'm also lucky that we have two fire academies in close proximity that offer a wide range of courses (with good participation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    Getting many volunteers in our area through 468 hours of training is virtually impossible. Many of our volunteers don't get enough vacation time to miss that many weekends, and if they did, they wouldn't have any left to fight fire. We have absolutely zero protection at our jobs, and many employers will not permit employees to miss work for anything outside of a major, major fire.

    Where do you get 468 hours from? I know in California Volunteer Firefighter 1 is 80 hours, and to the best of my knowledge NFPA, IFSAC and Proboard also follow this. First responder medical is 40 hours, EMT 120 hours, Hazmat Awareness 8 hours, Operational 16-24 hours, and the NWCG basic wildland firefighter which nearly everybody certifies under is 32-40 hours.

    Assuming you met all of this training you are looking at somewhere around 250 hours of training easily broken up into managable chunks. Assuming a more reasonable level of First Responder Medical instead of EMT then it is under 200 hours. Easily obtainable within a year of one 4 hour training day per week.

    The training can easily be broken into modules based on response type, wildland, medical, structure fire or hazmat, so not even needed to do it all within a single year while still allowing that member to be a useful member of the department to the level of training.

    I understand instructors can be an issue, but it is much easier to get a local firefighter trained up to instruct than to send all your firefigheters elsewhere.

    I understand that Texas may not be currently set up to support this type of system (I simply don't know your cert system), but that seems a reasonable issue to pursue as part of a minimum training requirement rather than fighting the idea of minimum standards.
    Last edited by Here and there; 05-07-2013 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Bad math

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No.

    The fact is while doing CPR in the back of an ambo does have some risk, it is limited and can generally be controlled by smooth driving techniques.

    The risk is associatted with entering a burning structure is dependant on a range of factors including the condition of the structure itself and the fire conditions, to the training and experience of the folks on the scene, the amount of manpower on-scene, the water supply, weather (such as snowwload on the roof) and the command structure.
    The risk in the ambulance may be "limited", but you can still be killed in a collision nonetheless. While "smooth driving techniques" can be beneficial, there are many other factors that it doesn't address. Factors like the mechanical condition of the ambulance, weather conditions, road issues like potholes, training and experience of the driver of the ambulance plus the "wild card" - other drivers.


    How safe is it to make entry depends on all of these factors. Entry is not an automatic "part of the job", unlike CPR.
    Now you're trying to change the argument to defend your position.

    Nobody has said that entry is an "automatic 'part of the job'". We have clearly and consistently stated that offensive operations are conditional and include the things you listed above.

    CPR is, as you correctly stated, a "part of the job" for EMS however, it IS NOT an automatic part of the job - as in you don't do CPR on every patient. Similarly, entry into a burning building for search/rescue/fire attack is "part of the job" for a Firefighter, but it IS NOT an automatic course of action for every fire. The decision to enter will be largely based on fire conditions and such allowing for interior operations.

    A task, procedure, skill, etc. does not have to be performed all of the time in order for it to be considered "part of the job".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PNBs?
    Pulseless non-breather, Code, Working Code, etc. Whatever it's called in your area. A person without a pulse, that's not breathing, that you need to perform CPR on.

    And yes, I have performed CPR many times while transporting.
    Why do you perceive this as safe versus making an aggressive interior attack, searching a premise, and essentially ending the emergency thus ending the danger?
    Why ... Because it was part of the job.
    Just as interior search, fire suppression, life safety and saving properties are part of the job of firefighting. How can you say that standing up unbelted in the back of a moving ambulance doing CPR is okay because it's part of the job, but then in the same breath advocate against aggressive attack? That's part of the job too...
    Quite honestly, I feel more unsafe in the back of a moving ambulance doing CPR than I do making entry into a smoke filled structure with one other guy on the line with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    You may not a legal obligation but you for sure should have a moral obligation to do the job. Everyone has raised their hand and said pick me to do this job be it volunteer or career. Everyone also knew going in that there are dangers to the job. Your statement is pretty damn thin.
    LA has no morals, remember? He's the guy who said he would let a child burn to death in a car because he didn't have proper PPE and whatever other excuses he could come up with, and as also said that he would write victims off and have no problem sleeping that night.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation.. I don't envy your position in the slightest.
    It does beg a follow-up question, though: What is your town's perception of your departments capabilities. Are they aware that you're primarily equipped and trained for EMS/wildland and that your structural firefighting capabilities are lagging? (please don't read that the wrong way). If the FD has been upfront about their capabilities, and the citizens are alright with it, then at least everyone is aware.. It's when departments don't acknowledge, or actively hide, these deficiencies and lead the public to think they are more then they really are that everyone should be concerned.

    Training-wise, as others have mentioned.. Working with other VFD's in the area can help with the cost and distance associated with training can would be a good way to get a big chunk of your area up to some semblance of certification. Though training may not be your first priority if just getting adequate PPE for your members is a problem.
    Our capabilities are no secret. We can and have effectively fought structure fires. But we aren't known for that and that isn't something we have lots of training and experience with, nor or we particularly well equipped for. We are known for fighting wildfire. We train for that, have lots of experience there, and are generally well-equipped for that. We are also a popular mutual aid partner for fighting wildfires. As far as fire calls go, that's 95%+ of our call volume every year. So we spend a lot of our time building, equipping, and maintaining our brush trucks and training for fighting wildfires.

    Coordination with other VFD's could definitely be better. No doubt about that. The old thinking of "we take care of our own" needs to go away, and it is starting to, but change is a slow process. For the longest time, people used to complain when the local VFD would respond out of area on mutual aid if that tells you anything. We've tried to do some training through the Texas Forest Service a couple of times, but they have been very hesitant to actually commit to much. Ourselves and everyone around is kind of seen as out of sight, out of mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Here, at least, there are usually options when it comes to taking long course like FF1 or EMT. Usually they'll have one track that is during the evening twice a week and another that is a single weekend day.. both usually take 6 months. Sometimes there are quicker-paced options like 5-days a week or every Sat/Sun.. for those that can schedule it.

    Even the twice-weekly or weekend type courses suck, I'll be honest. It's a long time to give up two weeknights or a weekend day.. but at least it doesn't require burning vacation. I'm also lucky that we have two fire academies in close proximity that offer a wide range of courses (with good participation).
    If we had to go through training like that, we probably wouldn't have any fire departments in this part of the state left. Not enough people would be willing to give up that much time from work or family for no pay. Then we would go from having what we have to having nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    Where do you get 468 hours from? I know in California Volunteer Firefighter 1 is 80 hours, and to the best of my knowledge NFPA, IFSAC and Proboard also follow this. First responder medical is 40 hours, EMT 120 hours, Hazmat Awareness 8 hours, Operational 16-24 hours, and the NWCG basic wildland firefighter which nearly everybody certifies under is 32-40 hours.

    Assuming you met all of this training you are looking at somewhere around 250 hours of training easily broken up into managable chunks. Assuming a more reasonable level of First Responder Medical instead of EMT then it is under 200 hours. Easily obtainable within a year of one 4 hour training day per week.

    The training can easily be broken into modules based on response type, wildland, medical, structure fire or hazmat, so not even needed to do it all within a single year while still allowing that member to be a useful member of the department to the level of training.

    I understand instructors can be an issue, but it is much easier to get a local firefighter trained up to instruct than to send all your firefigheters elsewhere.

    I understand that Texas may not be currently set up to support this type of system (I simply don't know your cert system), but that seems a reasonable issue to pursue as part of a minimum training requirement rather than fighting the idea of minimum standards.
    The TCFP requires 468 hours for career firefighters. That's the only state standard we have to reference. And I disagree with your last statement completely. Unless a training system is set up to support the standard, the state does not need to be setting a standard.

    The state is just putting the finishing touches on removing 75% of our state-level funding. This is the funding we use to get training from the state, PPE, and our one truck grant (starting truck round 2 this November). This is will barely leave enough to provide each department with a cost share grant for 2 sets of structural turnouts a year IF it is not used for training, trucks, wildland gear, or emergency grants for fuel and tires. They charge us against that fund for training as well (normally $500-$600/student per 40 hour class). There will be a lot of us in a bad way come wildfire season.
    Last edited by WVFD705; 05-07-2013 at 03:46 PM.

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    http://www.teex.com/teex.cfm?pageid=...14&navdiv=ESTI

    Here is our current option for getting trained to the current state requirements, although I think some college campuses around here offer the course as well. The course costs $5100 per student. Our annual budget is $10,000-$20,000. The state will allow us to apply for training grants (up to $595 per trainee). So it would cost us half to a quarter of our entire annual budget to train one firefighter to the current state standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    http://www.teex.com/teex.cfm?pageid=...14&navdiv=ESTI

    Here is our current option for getting trained to the current state requirements, although I think some college campuses around here offer the course as well. The course costs $5100 per student. Our annual budget is $10,000-$20,000. The state will allow us to apply for training grants (up to $595 per trainee). So it would cost us half to a quarter of our entire annual budget to train one firefighter to the current state standard.
    So then be happy with your brush fire fighting, but stop going to structure fires if you aren't trained or equipped for that. Unless the extent of your structure firefighting is to hose down the smoldering remains.

    The thing most of you fail to recognize is that YOU are the reason there is no training money available, no equipment money available, and you struggle on with nothing forever. If just once, one of your FDs would say "NO MORE!" Give us the training we need, and at least the basic equipment we need, or we will shut this down, and then DO IT, if they don't support you. Then what will they do? It seems one of two things will happen, either they will figure out a way to fund and support a fire department, or they didn't really want one in the first place. What if ALL the rural volly FDs in Texas made that stand? How could it be ignored?
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    How could it be ignored. . . . .because the vast majority of the population lives in urban/suburban areas that are covered by either paid or well funded volley departments. With the bulk of the population goes the political power to get funding.

    That is the simple truth of politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    http://www.teex.com/teex.cfm?pageid=...14&navdiv=ESTI

    Here is our current option for getting trained to the current state requirements, although I think some college campuses around here offer the course as well. The course costs $5100 per student. Our annual budget is $10,000-$20,000. The state will allow us to apply for training grants (up to $595 per trainee). So it would cost us half to a quarter of our entire annual budget to train one firefighter to the current state standard.

    There are shovels of money available from FEMA for basic firefighting training. Trainingdivision.com offers for $2500 FFI, FFII, Awareness and ops. A lot less than $5100,00.

    That includes food and lodging.

    Scads of money available from FEMA.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It seems one of two things will happen, either they will figure out a way to fund and support a fire department, or they didn't really want one in the first place. What if ALL the rural volly FDs in Texas made that stand? How could it be ignored?
    That happened.. South Fulton.. They did the right thing, they were upfront that they would no longer protect non-subscribers. And when a non-subscriber's house burned down those departments got dragged through the coals.

    I don't disagree with your statement.. but it's rarely as simple as saying 'we're not doing it' and there are usually many painful steps between A and B.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    That happened.. South Fulton.. They did the right thing, they were upfront that they would no longer protect non-subscribers. And when a non-subscriber's house burned down those departments got dragged through the coals.

    I don't disagree with your statement.. but it's rarely as simple as saying 'we're not doing it' and there are usually many painful steps between A and B.
    It is UNBELIEVABLY simple if you are a volunteer fire department that is under funded, with crappy equipment. CLOSE THE DOORS! Everyone resigns. What is the recourse of the community? There is no legal action that can be taken to FORCE people to volunteer. If the entire FD in one fell swoop says "NO MORE!" what can the community do to them? The community then can decide to fund and equip the FD properly, hire another FD to cover the area, or not have any fire protection at all.

    While I defend that subscription FD for its stance it is hardly the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    There are shovels of money available from FEMA for basic firefighting training. Trainingdivision.com offers for $2500 FFI, FFII, Awareness and ops. A lot less than $5100,00.

    That includes food and lodging.

    Scads of money available from FEMA.....
    Is there money outside of AFG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVFD705 View Post
    Is there money outside of AFG?
    I would be curious to find out where all this money is.
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