How many LODD's and injuries have happened while command was present outside?
What about your paying job chief? Not as gullible? Nothing says that attack ops has to be on the pipe, nor should be. But they can mask up and go in to check progress and conditions to give Command a better picture and time frame, so rescources can be ordered or canceled. More of that flexibility stuff you are so easy to dismiss.
Paying gig this isn't an issue as command can stay outside 99% of the time due to staffing. It is very rare that we do not have at least 4-5 members (paid staff and volunteers) excluding the pump operator and either the Deputy Chief or Shift Captain during the day or the Shift Captain at night when we start initial operations
I honestly can't remember the last time the Shift Captain went interior at night and it's been even longer since the Deputy Chief had to go interior during the day.
This is where the flexibility part that "sin't" about this comes in play. Why aren't you assigning the incoming crews while they are enroute? Even if it is to staging, they still should have an idea of what they are going in to before they get there. You should pay attention in class more.
We are assigning them while we they are responding, hence the need to be on multiple channels, and if my combo department responds in mutual aid, multiple radios as my volunteer parish still operates on analog and my combo department is digital.
As a rule my volunteer parish doesn't use staging very much.
One day, I'm gonna be sitting here reading the sh*t drivel LA types, and my head is just gonna freakin' explode.
We once had a guy that had EVERY certification that Missouri offered. He would remind us of it quite often. Guess what, he was still dumb as a box of rocks. Don't be that guy.
Golly, do you want to argue that with Alan Brunicini? My bet is he saw and commanded more fire than you have ever thought about? He describes and advocates working command in his Fire Command ICS classes, when the first due officer can have a bigger impact on the oncident by being physically involved with fireground activities than being a stationary exterior command.
Again, stop being such an obtuse azz and admit you have no idea what a true working command is and how the transfer of command to the next due rig's officer or senior firefighter occurs. Because everything you post makes me believe you think a working commander never relinquishes command and runs the entire incident from the interior. Frankly, you are making yourself look ignorant and foolish, yet again.
YOU probably can't and perhaps your chief can't either. But in the initial stages of fire attack in this part of the country working command is not only not unusual it is very common. The problem a dunderhead like you has is realizing that a working command officer does not maintain command the entire incident, UNLESS he comes back outside and retains command as more help arrives. Otherwise he is relieved by the next due officer. I just don't see why that is so damn hard for you to grasp.
I'll repeat this again ....
In more cases than not we have one officer responding. That's especially true given my response time to most of the district from my home .... If I am the first officer on scene, it's more than likely that I will be the ONLY officer responding and I will be the IC for duration of the incident.
We may get an officer on the AMA engine, or the BC that runs the shift may remain in his district. Even if he was on-scene, my Chief prefers that we retain command.
Again, I have no desire to be inside of a structure if I'm responsible for the entire operation. Guess what.... That's my call.
Could I? Sure. But given what we may face today in terms of fire growth that, IMO, is the last place the IC needs to be.
Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?
Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.
For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.
I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?
In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.
EDIT: Because we're flexible and that's how we roll? Cuz that's how we decided to do things? Unlike in Lousiana, just because the chief is on scene doesn't mean he has to initially have command. He was working on setting up water supply while I was already attacking the fire.
I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?
How much is the fire going to grow in the five to ten that you need to get the ic vest on? Working command can be the difference between a good save and a total loss when shorthanded. However, if you need to practice your investigating skills, by all means let 'er burn down. Hopefully someday the taxpayers wont investigate you for letting gramma burn up in a room and contents fire.
As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident. And as I have stated, fue to the fasct that of all the officers, I live the farthest from the majority of the district, it's very likely that if I am the only officer on-scene for initial attack, there will be no other officers responding.
The fact is I want to command the incident from the exterior. I want to be able to face to face with the crew from that AMA engine rather than give them directions via the radio. And I want to not have to worry about changing channels from fireground to page to talk to 911 or fumblwe with a completely different radio to talk to my combo department if they are responding MA while trying to operate interior.
And yes, i want to see fire conditions for myself from the exterior and walkaround the building a couple of times in the first 5 minutes.
And yes, that may slow down fire conditions interior, or may preclude interior fire attack due to limited manpower or experience issues until the AMA engine arrives. But that is how I like to run my scenes.
If you like interior working command, have at it.
Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.
We have identified that as an issue, and we likely are going to promote one member to Captain and at least one, and possibly 2 to LT this summer through a competetive process.
We have been holding off due to our low membershiop. the Chief has been very concerned about the officer to member ratio.
That being said, we have been working for the past year with the senior firefighters in terms of training regarding command and size-up. We have been putting them in the officer role during training as well as at scenes as, I have stated earlier, it's happens periodically that no officers respond and they have to assume that role.
As you have pointed out severe weather or amajor event can, and has impacted our ability to respond officers.