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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure it's possible. Departments do it every day, and most of the time it works.

    But all it takes is that one time when the IC isn't outside to notice changes is smoke or fire behavior. Or misses a critical radio transmission because he's inside performing fire attack, which is very easy with us as we have different departments coming in often on different frequencies,especially if he is the most experienced and feels that he needs to be on the nozzle.

    Again, I have used it many, many times. I made a decision not to use it a couple of years ago after realizing that fire conditions can change too fast with today's new fires for command to be interior. And my Chief sees the same thing.

    That is how, as a department we have decided to, or not to operate. If you feel safe operating that way, have at it.
    How many LODD's or injuries have come from utilizing working command?

    How many LODD's and injuries have happened while command was present outside?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully understand how flexible it can be. This sin't about that.You have no clue as to how flexible it SHOULD be, big difference.

    It's about me wanting to be able to watch the fire from the outside. Wanting to be able to notice changing fire conditions as they happen so I can pull my crews fast if I feel it's going bad.Took The Art Of Reading Smoke class, did ya? Now you're a pro at this? I wouldn't trust you to keep an eye on my BBQ. Besides, you would not even let the crew enter.

    I want to be able to interface with my mutual aid face-to-face, not via radio. I want to be able to monitor a couple of radios as if I have my combo department coming in I can talk to them (analog v. digital radio systems) without trying to talk on 2 radios and performing fire attack.This is where the flexibility part that "sin't" about this comes in play. Why aren't you assigning the incoming crews while they are enroute? Even if it is to staging, they still should have an idea of what they are going in to before they get there. You should pay attention in class more.

    I want to be able to do my own 360 a minute or two into the fire attack.Your lack of trust in firefighters to complete a walk around and report back to you is embarrassing. How can you possibly pay attention to fire conditions when your'e in the back yard admiring Mrs. Bodeen's agapanthus?
    I don't believe that you can control fire attack operations from the interior. And my VFD Chief agrees.What about your paying job chief? Not as gullible? Nothing says that attack ops has to be on the pipe, nor should be. But they can mask up and go in to check progress and conditions to give Command a better picture and time frame, so rescources can be ordered or canceled. More of that flexibility stuff you are so easy to dismiss.

    Being IC is about being command and control. You can't control the operation from a handline.
    Reread this, it's a free class. And stop using "Command" and "Operations" as if they are one person. They covered that in the ICS class that you took. Weak sauce, dude.
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    What about your paying job chief? Not as gullible? Nothing says that attack ops has to be on the pipe, nor should be. But they can mask up and go in to check progress and conditions to give Command a better picture and time frame, so rescources can be ordered or canceled. More of that flexibility stuff you are so easy to dismiss.

    Paying gig this isn't an issue as command can stay outside 99% of the time due to staffing. It is very rare that we do not have at least 4-5 members (paid staff and volunteers) excluding the pump operator and either the Deputy Chief or Shift Captain during the day or the Shift Captain at night when we start initial operations

    I honestly can't remember the last time the Shift Captain went interior at night and it's been even longer since the Deputy Chief had to go interior during the day.
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    This is where the flexibility part that "sin't" about this comes in play. Why aren't you assigning the incoming crews while they are enroute? Even if it is to staging, they still should have an idea of what they are going in to before they get there. You should pay attention in class more.

    We are assigning them while we they are responding, hence the need to be on multiple channels, and if my combo department responds in mutual aid, multiple radios as my volunteer parish still operates on analog and my combo department is digital.

    As a rule my volunteer parish doesn't use staging very much.
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    One day, I'm gonna be sitting here reading the sh*t drivel LA types, and my head is just gonna freakin' explode.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Wouldn't have "posted my resume" unless somebody questioned my ICS/NIMS training.
    You have been throwing out your 'resume' for a long time. Everytime you take a class, you make sure and wedge it into whatever thread we happen to be on.

    We once had a guy that had EVERY certification that Missouri offered. He would remind us of it quite often. Guess what, he was still dumb as a box of rocks. Don't be that guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully understand how flexible it can be. This sin't about that.

    Kind of it is. Because you are being completely inflexxible.

    It's about me wanting to be able to watch the fire from the outside. Wanting to be able to notice changing fire conditions as they happen so I can pull my crews fast if I feel it's going bad.

    Of course YOU want to watch it from the outside.

    Now let me explain something to you about the fire Chenzo was working command at. He had a nother firefighter outside with an exposure line, and he had the Chief at the pump. They were both more than capable of watching the conditions outside, inclusing changing fire and smoke conditions. Golly kind of shoots your nobody outside watching smoke and fire conditions BS. Further with all your "Exterior only" firefighters why can't one of them in the initial stages keep an eye on that until another officer arrives?


    I want to be able to interface with my mutual aid face-to-face, not via radio. I want to be able to monitor a couple of radios as if I have my combo department coming in I can talk to them (analog v. digital radio systems) without trying to talk on 2 radios and performing fire attack.

    Well, number one, we use radios when we can't face to face interface we radio interface. By the way, I don't need to talk to their chief or even an officer of the mutual aid FD as long as I can talk to whomever is in charge of THEIR first arriving rig.

    Our radios are all the same type in this county as far as frequency and they all comply with the new interface protocol. So I can monitor all I want on my one handy dandy portable radio. Infact, we can interface with any FD in the state with the state protocol VHF channels and even most with 800 radios because of patch systems set up. Sounds like just another Louisiana custer f*** with your radios.


    I want to be able to do my own 360 a minute or two into the fire attack.

    Chenzo did a 360 before he entered the structure. I guess you missed that.

    I don't believe that you can control fire attack operations from the interior. And my VFD Chief agrees.

    YOU probably can't and perhaps your chief can't either. But in the initial stages of fire attack in this part of the country working command is not only not unusual it is very common. The problem a dunderhead like you has is realizing that a working command officer does not maintain command the entire incident, UNLESS he comes back outside and retains command as more help arrives. Otherwise he is relieved by the next due officer. I just don't see why that is so damn hard for you to grasp.

    Being IC is about being command and control. You can't control the operation from a handline.

    Golly, do you want to argue that with Alan Brunicini? My bet is he saw and commanded more fire than you have ever thought about? He describes and advocates working command in his Fire Command ICS classes, when the first due officer can have a bigger impact on the oncident by being physically involved with fireground activities than being a stationary exterior command.

    Again, stop being such an obtuse azz and admit you have no idea what a true working command is and how the transfer of command to the next due rig's officer or senior firefighter occurs. Because everything you post makes me believe you think a working commander never relinquishes command and runs the entire incident from the interior. Frankly, you are making yourself look ignorant and foolish, yet again.
    I suggest you get out the texts from some of your massive list of ICS classes and reread the chapter on working command.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure it's possible. Departments do it every day, and most of the time it works.

    Name one incident, just one, in the history of the fire service where a working command resulted in an injury or an LODD. Otherwise once again all you are doing is making crap up.

    I can name dozens where it happened with an exterior command. So using your convoluted logic exterior command must be flawed and dangerous.

    But all it takes is that one time when the IC isn't outside to notice changes is smoke or fire behavior. Or misses a critical radio transmission because he's inside performing fire attack, which is very easy with us as we have different departments coming in often on different frequencies,especially if he is the most experienced and feels that he needs to be on the nozzle.

    We don't have different frequencies for the fireground in our county, in fact we can set up a multi-county, statewide incident and EVERYONE be on the same channel if we wanted to. Too bad once again your state is in the dark ages.

    Again, working command does not retain command from inside the structure for the entire incident.


    Again, I have used it many, many times. I made a decision not to use it a couple of years ago after realizing that fire conditions can change too fast with today's new fires for command to be interior. And my Chief sees the same thing.

    My guess is you decided not to do it about the same time you decided you prefer to stay outside.

    That is how, as a department we have decided to, or not to operate. If you feel safe operating that way, have at it.

    I do, but then again we have all interior trained, mostly FF1 and some FF2 certified firefighters so we don't look for excuses to hang out by the donut truck at calls. We prefer to go inside and save lives and property when it is safe to do so.
    Just keep showing how little you really do know about ICS and how important it is to fill vests while property is destroyed.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-12-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    You have been throwing out your 'resume' for a long time. Everytime you take a class, you make sure and wedge it into whatever thread we happen to be on.

    We once had a guy that had EVERY certification that Missouri offered. He would remind us of it quite often. Guess what, he was still dumb as a box of rocks. Don't be that guy.
    Too late...
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    Golly, do you want to argue that with Alan Brunicini? My bet is he saw and commanded more fire than you have ever thought about? He describes and advocates working command in his Fire Command ICS classes, when the first due officer can have a bigger impact on the oncident by being physically involved with fireground activities than being a stationary exterior command.

    Again, stop being such an obtuse azz and admit you have no idea what a true working command is and how the transfer of command to the next due rig's officer or senior firefighter occurs. Because everything you post makes me believe you think a working commander never relinquishes command and runs the entire incident from the interior. Frankly, you are making yourself look ignorant and foolish, yet again.


    or



    YOU probably can't and perhaps your chief can't either. But in the initial stages of fire attack in this part of the country working command is not only not unusual it is very common. The problem a dunderhead like you has is realizing that a working command officer does not maintain command the entire incident, UNLESS he comes back outside and retains command as more help arrives. Otherwise he is relieved by the next due officer. I just don't see why that is so damn hard for you to grasp.


    I'll repeat this again ....

    In more cases than not we have one officer responding. That's especially true given my response time to most of the district from my home .... If I am the first officer on scene, it's more than likely that I will be the ONLY officer responding and I will be the IC for duration of the incident.

    We may get an officer on the AMA engine, or the BC that runs the shift may remain in his district. Even if he was on-scene, my Chief prefers that we retain command.

    Again, I have no desire to be inside of a structure if I'm responsible for the entire operation. Guess what.... That's my call.

    Could I? Sure. But given what we may face today in terms of fire growth that, IMO, is the last place the IC needs to be.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-12-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I'll repeat this again ....

    In more cases than not we have one officer responding. That's especially true given my response time to most of the district from my home .... If I am the first officer on scene, it's more than likely that I will be the ONLY officer on-scene.
    Stay with me here, this is gonna be radical.

    If you're the only officer on scene, assume working command, and then when more units arrive, (wait for it, here's the radical part) GO ASSUME COMMAND OUTSIDE, and send other crews interior.
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    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Stay with me here, this is gonna be radical.

    If you're the only officer on scene, assume working command, and then when more units arrive, (wait for it, here's the radical part) GO ASSUME COMMAND OUTSIDE, and send other crews interior.
    Thinkinggggggggggggggggggggg........... Nope.

    Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?

    Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.

    For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.

    I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?

    In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Thinkinggggggggggggggggggggg........... Nope.

    Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?

    Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.

    For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.

    I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?

    In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.
    Because the chief was the pump operator. He got into the drivers seat at the station, and we had a brief conversation about who would be in charge.

    EDIT: Because we're flexible and that's how we roll? Cuz that's how we decided to do things? Unlike in Lousiana, just because the chief is on scene doesn't mean he has to initially have command. He was working on setting up water supply while I was already attacking the fire.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-12-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Golly, do you want to argue that with Alan Brunicini? My bet is he saw and commanded more fire than you have ever thought about? He describes and advocates working command in his Fire Command ICS classes, when the first due officer can have a bigger impact on the oncident by being physically involved with fireground activities than being a stationary exterior command.

    Again, stop being such an obtuse azz and admit you have no idea what a true working command is and how the transfer of command to the next due rig's officer or senior firefighter occurs. Because everything you post makes me believe you think a working commander never relinquishes command and runs the entire incident from the interior. Frankly, you are making yourself look ignorant and foolish, yet again.


    or



    YOU probably can't and perhaps your chief can't either. But in the initial stages of fire attack in this part of the country working command is not only not unusual it is very common. The problem a dunderhead like you has is realizing that a working command officer does not maintain command the entire incident, UNLESS he comes back outside and retains command as more help arrives. Otherwise he is relieved by the next due officer. I just don't see why that is so damn hard for you to grasp.


    I'll repeat this again ....

    In more cases than not we have one officer responding. That's especially true given my response time to most of the district from my home .... If I am the first officer on scene, it's more than likely that I will be the ONLY officer responding and I will be the IC for duration of the incident.

    Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.

    We may get an officer on the AMA engine, or the BC that runs the shift may remain in his district. Even if he was on-scene, my Chief prefers that we retain command.

    Listen scooter, even if you relinquish command to an outside officer guess who is still ultimately responsible for what happens at an incident in your department's coverage area...That's right...YOUR CHIEF. The corrolary to that is a responding mutual aid company, while being directed what to do by your IC, can refuse an order if they deem it unsafe. Whenever my career FD goes mutual aid we send a command staff officer along to be in contro, of our firefighters.

    Again, I have no desire to be inside of a structure if I'm responsible for the entire operation. Guess what.... That's my call.

    You have no desire to be in the structure whether you are in command or not. Guess what...That is no surprise.

    Could I? Sure. But given what we may face today in terms of fire growth that, IMO, is the last place the IC needs to be.

    And once again proving that you are nothing more than an obtuse azz...In our case, where we almost always have more than one officer on the first rig, and if not we can in the majority of circumstances count on either another officer, or a senior firefighter, to arrive on the second rig. So again, the time frame where the working command officer has overall command is generally 10 minutes or less, usually less.

    To me all your blathering are nothing more than an excuse not to enter, even when your entering with the first arriving crew may mean the difference between saving the building or burning it down.
    Seems like just more of your same old nonsense and excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Thinkinggggggggggggggggggggg........... Nope.

    Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?

    Because standing outside with a vest when helping the first in crew get a line in position and operating may save the structure is just plain F***ing stupid. That's why.

    Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.

    It works for EVERYONE that actually is smart enough to grasp the concept.

    For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.

    I know, the fire is in there and it is scary. Frankly, I wouldn't let you come inside with me.

    I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?

    You see Bobby, because he was running the pump, and we like to keep the pump operator at the pump, we are kind of funny that way, there is NO WAY IN HELL HE COULD HAVE DONE THE 360 THAT CHENZO DID. Seriously, you can't be this damn dumb.

    In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.

    Well good for you. Even in circumstances where the LT or Captain has initial command and the Chief or AC arrives they may allow that junior officer to continue to run the incident after checking in and checking on tactics. You see that is how junior officers get experience in command. If the Chief feels that the junior officer is doing a good job he will leave them in command. he may stick close to assist or he may go to work as a firefighter. You can do those types of things when you actually train your officers and firefighters to do the job. I know all of that is something your FDs would enver consider, let alone actually do.
    Golly, it must suck to see that not all volly FDs are as bad off as yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Thinkinggggggggggggggggggggg........... Nope.

    Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?

    Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.

    For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.

    I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?

    In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.
    Why would you want to be inside during the most critical point in the operation? Because sometimes a set of eyes(and sometimes hands) INSIDE do far more good than outside. That critical 5 to 10 minutes can sometimes be shaved down and guess what, then things arent so critical. Dont get me wrong, there are times when being outside and working on the big picture is the thing to do,but in my experence, sometimes "passing command/fast attack" does away with any real need for a command structure to be put in place.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure it's possible. Departments do it every day, and most of the time it works.
    It worked ALL the time for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But all it takes is that one time when the IC isn't outside to notice changes is smoke or fire behavior. Or misses a critical radio transmission because he's inside performing fire attack, which is very easy with us as we have different departments coming in often on different frequencies,especially if he is the most experienced and feels that he needs to be on the nozzle.
    See above response. The firefighters in my old dept. were very capable of multi-tasking.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, I have used it many, many times. I made a decision not to use it a couple of years ago after realizing that fire conditions can change too fast with today's new fires for command to be interior. And my Chief sees the same thing.
    Good to know your chief is as pathetic as you. You continue to reinforce what I've believed about many VFD mindsets for several decades. That being you're in it for the glamor and none of the responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is how, as a department we have decided to, or not to operate. If you feel safe operating that way, have at it.
    See above response.
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    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?
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    How much is the fire going to grow in the five to ten that you need to get the ic vest on? Working command can be the difference between a good save and a total loss when shorthanded. However, if you need to practice your investigating skills, by all means let 'er burn down. Hopefully someday the taxpayers wont investigate you for letting gramma burn up in a room and contents fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post

    Good to know your chief is as pathetic as you. You continue to reinforce what I've believed about many VFD mindsets for several decades. That being you're in it for the glamor and none of the responsibility.

    I am glad you changed your hard line anti-volly stance to many instead of all. Remember, it was my local volly FD that did the working command actions that started this branch of the never ending LA argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is how, as a department we have decided not to operate.
    There, I fixed your grammatical errors for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?
    Not surprising. He always ignores the posts when someone proves that he's wrong. He latches onto the posts that he can spin in his favor, even though he's still wrong.
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?

    Actually I had already answered most of what you had to say.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Why would you want to be inside during the most critical point in the operation? Because sometimes a set of eyes(and sometimes hands) INSIDE do far more good than outside. That critical 5 to 10 minutes can sometimes be shaved down and guess what, then things arent so critical. Dont get me wrong, there are times when being outside and working on the big picture is the thing to do,but in my experence, sometimes "passing command/fast attack" does away with any real need for a command structure to be put in place.
    First assumption is that there is somebody to pass command to.

    As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident. And as I have stated, fue to the fasct that of all the officers, I live the farthest from the majority of the district, it's very likely that if I am the only officer on-scene for initial attack, there will be no other officers responding.

    The fact is I want to command the incident from the exterior. I want to be able to face to face with the crew from that AMA engine rather than give them directions via the radio. And I want to not have to worry about changing channels from fireground to page to talk to 911 or fumblwe with a completely different radio to talk to my combo department if they are responding MA while trying to operate interior.

    And yes, i want to see fire conditions for myself from the exterior and walkaround the building a couple of times in the first 5 minutes.

    And yes, that may slow down fire conditions interior, or may preclude interior fire attack due to limited manpower or experience issues until the AMA engine arrives. But that is how I like to run my scenes.

    If you like interior working command, have at it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #250
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    Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.

    We have identified that as an issue, and we likely are going to promote one member to Captain and at least one, and possibly 2 to LT this summer through a competetive process.

    We have been holding off due to our low membershiop. the Chief has been very concerned about the officer to member ratio.

    That being said, we have been working for the past year with the senior firefighters in terms of training regarding command and size-up. We have been putting them in the officer role during training as well as at scenes as, I have stated earlier, it's happens periodically that no officers respond and they have to assume that role.

    As you have pointed out severe weather or amajor event can, and has impacted our ability to respond officers.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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