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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Come on Bobby...show some stones and post your reply to me.. I need a good laugh.
    Just decided that it wasn't worth it.

    Frankly I don't care who you would and would not be willing to work an incident with.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If only one officer responds, he is obviously command and remains exterior per policy.
    I would be adamantly opposed, and advocating for change, of this policy.

    With already limited manpower, how in the hell can your department justify committing, what you've said yourself is, a trained and experienced member to standing outside?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In a perfect world, we could have our experienced members fulfill those roles, but the problem is they are officers and may need to remain exterior to fulfill critical ICS/NIMS functions, especially given that typical response is 1-2.
    So again, filling your vests is more important than putting out the fire.... Those are your words this time, not mine.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  3. #183
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just decided that it wasn't worth it.

    Frankly I don't care who you would and would not be willing to work an incident with.
    Here's a hint, it's not you.
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  4. #184
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    So LA,Let me get this straight.

    You don't have the money to train in live fire at a training facility and you don't get to do many, if any, acquired structure training burns, AND you don't want your less experienced guys to go interior at a structure fire...SO, where are they supposed to gain any experience at live fire firefighting skills?
    Chenzo and conrad427 like this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Psssstt .. Even operating defensive from the get go is still fighting fires.
    I think this says it all right here.

    Name:  430414_398506630163452_100000123548928_1679873_137962965_n.jpg
Views: 91
Size:  22.6 KB
    FyredUp likes this.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    SO, where are they supposed to gain any experience at live fire firefighting skills?
    I'm beginning to think that they aren't supposed to, and that's all part of LA's agenda to murder the fire service as we know it.

    "Fill the vest, f**k the rest. The fire will go out eventually."
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  7. #187
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I think this says it all right here.

    Attachment 22873
    Where did you find that classified picture of LA's department in action?

    I'll bet you there's more visible fire outside than actually inside the building....
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So LA,Let me get this straight.

    You don't have the money to train in live fire at a training facility and you don't get to do many, if any, acquired structure training burns, AND you don't want your less experienced guys to go interior at a structure fire...SO, where are they supposed to gain any experience at live fire firefighting skills?
    That is the problem.

    Once every couple of years we will get a building and be ale to do burns, assuming that it is structurally sound enough.

    We are now are able to do burns at the LSU facility just down the road 3 times per year. Previously, you were not able to utilize your training nights doing burns at their facility, but that policy has just changed.

    Problem is for the other 99.5% of the rural departments who are no where near the LSU facility or nowhere near a burn building of any type that they can use, they don't have this option.

    We are also doing a burn at my combo departments facility this Thursday night. They have agreed to let us come twice a year at no charge. Much of that is because of my dual membership.

    Again, most rural VFDs are not within 50 or more miles of a burn facility.

    We also have had our training budget doubled for this upcoming year so we will be able to travel to training significantly more.

    I have no issues with my less experienced guys going interior at fires as long as there is an experienced member with them. The problem is that given many of our calls get a single officer responding, that often is not possible.

    We now are lucky enough to have some options that most rural VFDs will never have.

    It should increase our abilities, but training fire is still not even close to structural fire.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I would be adamantly opposed, and advocating for change, of this policy.

    With already limited manpower, how in the hell can your department justify committing, what you've said yourself is, a trained and experienced member to standing outside?

    My volunteer Chief is a strong believer that command needs to be outside of the structure. You will have to debate him to change that.

    I agree with him. Command cannot function inside the structure.

    That being said, he will allow command to function interior if absolutely needed in a viable rescue situation.




    So again, filling your vests is more important than putting out the fire.... Those are your words this time, not mine.
    I guess if you calling filling the role of Incident Command as a vest.

    I used to believe that command could function interior. I now believe that it is not the case.

    Command must have a view of the entire scene and structure. Command can not be in control if they are on a handline inside the structure.

    And yes, there are times, especially at commercial buildings where there needs to be a sector officer exterior on the rear during the initial operation. That is not "a vest". And there are situations where there absolutely needs to be a safety officer from the get-go. Again, that is not "a vest".

    That may mean waiting for another company or mutual aid to arrive before tarting interior operations. And that may mean the loss of the structure. But again, it is all about us coming home, and if a strong ICS needs to be set up initially using your first in officers, it's worth it.


    This is especially true with a very inexperienced department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-11-2013 at 11:04 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I think this says it all right here.

    Attachment 22873
    And you have a problem with departments that may choose or are forced to operate primarily exterior?

    You don't think they are fireman?

    Ignorant.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm beginning to think that they aren't supposed to, and that's all part of LA's agenda to murder the fire service as we know it.

    "Fill the vest, f**k the rest. The fire will go out eventually."

    Damn, you figured me out.

    That's right ... You now know my evil plan.

    If you want your IC interior, fine, but it simply isn't, and never will be safe.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #192
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Damn, you figured me out.

    That's right ... You now know my evil plan.

    If you want your IC interior, fine, but it simply isn't, and never will be safe.
    And you have never actually taken an Incident Command class or were just too damn stupid to understand the concept of "Working Command." Working command is a viable option for the FIRST ARRIVING OFFICER if they believe that tactically they can have a greater effect on the outcome of the incident by being actively involved in fireground work. Note that that says FIRST ARRIVING OFFICER. Generally the next arriving officer, or senior firefighter if there is no officer, takes command.

    Sorry that that doesn't fit into your surround and drown belief in command.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess if you calling filling the role of Incident Command as a vest.
    When you believe command can serve no function but to stand outside, observe, and give out orders, then yeah, it is filling a vest.

    I used to beleive that command could function interior. I now believe that it is not the case.
    So... you weren't always a dumb***** then?

    Command must have a view of the entire scene and structure. Command can not be in control if they are on a handline inside the structure.
    Disagree. It's been proven over and over again, day after day, that command can effectively function interior and still fullfill the role of command.

    And yes, there are times, especially at commercial buildings where there needs to be a sector officer exterior on the rear during the initial operation. That is not "a vest". And there are situations where there absolutely needs to be a safety officer from the get-go. Again, that is not "a vest".
    Little bit different when we're talking about commercial buildings. Pretty sure for the sake of this discussion, we're talking about residential fires. But nice diversionary tactic in an attempt to justify your position.
    This is especially true with a very inexperienced department.
    Blah blah blah, make some more excuses not to do your job.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And you have never actually taken an Incident Command class or were just too damn stupid to understand the concept of "Working Command." Working command is a viable option for the FIRST ARRIVING OFFICER if they believe that tactically they can have a greater effect on the outcome of the incident by being actively involved in fireground work. Note that that says FIRST ARRIVING OFFICER. Generally the next arriving officer, or senior firefighter if there is no officer, takes command.

    Sorry that that doesn't fit into your surround and drown belief in command.
    I have taken a whole range of IC/NIMS classes, and not only am I very familiar with the concept of "working command", but I have used it many times.

    That being said, the Chief is my boss, and the Chief does not want his IC inside the structure, so we do not use "working command" unless the IC must make entry to effect a rescue.

    Again, I have used it. And again, I until recently, had no issues, but given the changes in both fire behavior and building construction, I now believe that somebody operating interior cannot safely operate as the IC.

    We are the priority.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And you have a problem with departments that may choose or are forced to operate primarily exterior?

    You don't think they are fireman?

    Ignorant.
    When it appears as simple as going inside, poking some holes in the ceiling, and putting the fire out, yeah, I have a bit of a problem with departments that choose to operate exterior because they're quasi-wanna-be Pubed officer has convinced them that going interior is too scary and dangerous.

    I see three guys in that picture, and I'm gonna guess there's at least one (running the pump) if not two (IC based on the way you do things) more guys on scene with them. There's no fire coming out the windows, not even the highest window near the fire, there's no smoke angrily coming from any of the soffet or anything, not even the soffet that has some fire showing through it.

    Go inside, pull some ceiling, squirt some water, and go home. There's no need to conduct exterior operations on this house, even with only 4 or 5 guys.
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Damn, you figured me out.
    Doesn't take much to see that you're a spineless coward.

    That's right ... You now know my evil plan.


    If you want your IC interior, fine, but it simply isn't, and never will be safe.
    Yeah... I disagree. Shocker, I know. There's no reason, ESPECIALLY on a fire like the picture above, that command can't be interior.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have taken a whole range of IC/NIMS classes, and not only am I very familiar with the concept of "working command", but I have used it many times.
    I don't believe you.

    That being said, the Chief is my boss, and the Chief does not want his IC inside the structure, so we do not use "working command" unless the IC must make entry to effect a rescue.
    As I said I would be working to change that. No reason that the initial officer can't conduct interior operations when property conservation is a viable option. No need to burn the whole house down

    Again, I have used it. And again, I until recently, had no issues, but given the changes in both fire behavior and building construction, I now believe that somebody operating interior cannot safely operate as the IC.
    Again, I don't believe you. And Again, more excuses.

    We are the priority.
    But that doesn't mean that we have to stand in the yard. Why do you put yourself above the public who calls us for HELP?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    When you believe command can serve no function but to stand outside, observe, and give out orders, then yeah, it is filling a vest.

    You're right. There's really no need to observe changing smoke, fire and structural conditions. There's no need to be able to assign multiple apparatus operating on different frequencies, talk to dispatch and communicate with EMS on multiple radio frequencies. There's no need to be in a position to deal with water supply issues.

    You're right. Standing outside is just a vest.


    I used to beleive that command could function interior. I now believe that it is not the case.
    So... you weren't always a dumb***** then?

    I also used to believe that most fires should be attacked interior. I also used to believe that the public was the priority. I used to believe that we had to drive fast and bust through intersections to get there quickly. I have evolved.


    Disagree. It's been proven over and over again, day after day, that command can effectively function interior and still fullfill the role of command.

    And there have also been plenty of LODD and injury reports where command not functioning outside the structure but instead going interior has been identified either as a major factor or as a contributing factor in the LODD.

    Again, if you want to believe that if things go bad you can manage the problem from a handline inside the structure, have at it. I would suspect that many folks would not agree with you.


    And yes, there are times, especially at commercial buildings where there needs to be a sector officer exterior on the rear during the initial operation. That is not "a vest". And there are situations where there absolutely needs to be a safety officer from the get-go. Again, that is not "a vest".
    Little bit different when we're talking about commercial buildings. Pretty sure for the sake of this discussion, we're talking about residential fires. But nice diversionary tactic in an attempt to justify your position.

    So you don't agree that there are times that you need 2 command officers outside of a residential structure from the get-go? I disagree. They may be infrequent, but they happen.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    When it appears as simple as going inside, poking some holes in the ceiling, and putting the fire out, yeah, I have a bit of a problem with departments that choose to operate exterior because they're quasi-wanna-be Pubed officer has convinced them that going interior is too scary and dangerous.

    I see three guys in that picture, and I'm gonna guess there's at least one (running the pump) if not two (IC based on the way you do things) more guys on scene with them. There's no fire coming out the windows, not even the highest window near the fire, there's no smoke angrily coming from any of the soffet or anything, not even the soffet that has some fire showing through it.

    Go inside, pull some ceiling, squirt some water, and go home. There's no need to conduct exterior operations on this house, even with only 4 or 5 guys.

    And that is your opinion.

    There are many FDs out there, that for whatever reasons, have decided that they do want to conduct interior operations the majority of the time. That is their decision. And as much as you don't want to hear it... That is their right to decide how they will conduct operations.

    And that decision is just as valid as your department's decision to function as a primarily interior operation.

    I'm sorry that seems to bother you that much, but get over it. It's their call.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you want your IC interior, fine, but it simply isn't, and never will be safe.
    We had interior commands all the time. Everyone went home.
    Chenzo likes this.
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