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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First assumption is that there is somebody to pass command to.

    As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident. And as I have stated, fue to the fasct that of all the officers, I live the farthest from the majority of the district, it's very likely that if I am the only officer on-scene for initial attack, there will be no other officers responding.

    The fact is I want to command the incident from the exterior. I want to be able to face to face with the crew from that AMA engine rather than give them directions via the radio. And I want to not have to worry about changing channels from fireground to page to talk to 911 or fumblwe with a completely different radio to talk to my combo department if they are responding MA while trying to operate interior.

    And yes, i want to see fire conditions for myself from the exterior and walkaround the building a couple of times in the first 5 minutes.

    And yes, that may slow down fire conditions interior, or may preclude interior fire attack due to limited manpower or experience issues until the AMA engine arrives. But that is how I like to run my scenes.

    If you like interior working command, have at it.
    Again , sometimes , if you actually fight fire, "the first five minutes" can be basically "the last five minutes " also. Again , not always by any means, but why fiddlefart around when you can slam the door and stop the fire from turning into a "vest" fire?
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  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually I had already answered most of what you had to say.
    Not at all. Middle of page 11 is the post I'm talking about. No reply?
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    Yes I do. Every single one of us took an oath to protect life and property, not the foundation, and not to stand outside while there are victims trapped inside. No department is FORCED to operate as an exterior department. They choose to do so because of lack of training, which is turn goes to **** poor leadership.

    There are many other factors. lack of funding to safely operate interior. lack of manpower. lack of a pool to draw manpower from. Distance from mutual aid. Lack of a Water suupply or a lack of funding to purchase adequate tankers.

    And yes, lack of leadership. Certainly some of that can be traced to a lack of leadship training as well, which may or may not be available in thier are or through thier state training system.

    So there are plenty of factors that can influence a departments operations. To say that they are controlled by the fire department is ignorant.


    You have gone on and on about rural volunteer departments not being able to do this or that. This is where I prove you wrong. My department is located in northeast Pennsylvania. Our first due coverage area is just over 25 square miles with just over 1,800 residents. During summer the number jumps to around 2,500 with all the vacation homes. Our 2nd due coverage area stretches into 2 other counties in 4 other communities, and 3rd due into 3 other communities, ALL rural departments.

    And that's great.

    What's your budget? You also live in PA, which has a rich history and stromng tradition of volunteer stafferd fire departments. You amy also have a young population.

    There are parts of the counntry that do not have a strong tradition of volunteer firefighting and recruiting members is a constant struggle. There are communtities, such as my volunteer departm,ent's area that has a demographic trenfing towards an older population with a very limited under 40-pool to draw from.

    Again, saying 'we do it in our community and you should be able to do it in your's" is ignorant of the financial, social, demograhic and operational differences from place to place.


    My department has 4 line officers, Chief, Asst. Chief, Captain, and myself the Lieutenant, and 6 active members. Never once did we not attempt an aggressive interior attack, in any of the areas we respond to. We have great leaders, experienced firefighters that help the new guys get experience, and we train our asses off.

    And our officers are good leaders as well. the members, for the most part, work hard to make the department better. But we are limited, and there is no problem with recognizing your limits.

    As far as training most of our members attend training. Many of them go above and beyond. Some don't. Would I like them to? Yup, but I understand that some of them just don't have the commitment to the fire service that I do, or some of our other members do, and that some have family and second-job commitments that limit the amount of scheduled and extra training they can attend. And that is ok as well.

    You may feel comfortable in trying to attack aggressively short staffed. I don't. And many other VFDs don't. And that my friend, is, IMO perfectly acceptable.

    We get one or two new guys a year.


    Somewhere I remember reading you saying something about live fire training facilities are a good distance from you. The closest facility to us is an hour away, others are 3+ hours away. We have a VERY tight operating budget, yet we still manage to make sure our members get the training they need and want.

    So do we.

    But for others it's a significant challenge, and I understand that.

    Again for you to expect that others can do it just because you can't is ignorant.

    I've managed to shsoot down every point you've attempted to make in your nonsense. What it comes down to is you are a **** poor leader, a selfish bastard, and a chicken****.




    Oh and can't forget the fact that we haven't had a LODD or injury in over 10+ years
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.

    We have identified that as an issue, and we likely are going to promote one member to Captain and at least one, and possibly 2 to LT this summer through a competetive process.

    We have been holding off due to our low membershiop. the Chief has been very concerned about the officer to member ratio.

    That being said, we have been working for the past year with the senior firefighters in terms of training regarding command and size-up. We have been putting them in the officer role during training as well as at scenes as, I have stated earlier, it's happens periodically that no officers respond and they have to assume that role.

    As you have pointed out severe weather or amajor event can, and has impacted our ability to respond officers.
    Add to all of that the fact that every damn decision one of those junior officers makes will be questioned by YOU.

    I can already hear you saying to them "I would not have committed personnel inside that structure." And the reply..."But Bobby, the house is still standing, and we even saved the family dog. What did we do wrong?"
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    if it went wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Add to all of that the fact that every damn decision one of those junior officers makes will be questioned by YOU.

    I can already hear you saying to them "I would not have committed personnel inside that structure." And the reply..."But Bobby, the house is still standing, and we even saved the family dog. What did we do wrong?"
    The fact that we saved the house and the dog is still alive does mean that entering the structure was always good call or the right call.

    In some cases it simply means that we got lucky and one of the bad things that could have happened didn't.

    After every interior operation there should be a discussion regarding the risks and the potential benefits of the situation. There should be discussion regarding some of the things that could have gone wrong. And there should be discussion regarding if the resources, command structure, training and experience was on scene to deal with the stuff that could have gone wrong if it went wrong.

    In hindsight, it may be decided that making entry was in fact, not a good idea.

    The problem is that for any new officers on my volunteer department, it will be a struggle as there simply are very few real world runs of any real significance for them to garner command experience.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Again , sometimes , if you actually fight fire, "the first five minutes" can be basically "the last five minutes " also. Again , not always by any means, but why fiddlefart around when you can slam the door and stop the fire from turning into a "vest" fire?
    True.

    And that is where the personal preference of the officer comes into play.

    As I said, there have been situations, especially with my 2 previous VFDs in VT, where I have made entry with the crew and commanded the incident from the interior. In all of those situations I knew that I had a strong officer - usually mutual aid - coming in behind me. I told them exactly what I was doing and specifics about the situation before making entry. In that situation there was also a strong framework regarding who was doing what as they arrived on the fireground as part of a pre-arranged plan.

    And yes, there have been situations where my going interior as the initial IC has given the crew enough manpower to knock down the fire. So yes, in some situations, it can work.

    But as I have said, I have changed my mind over the past couple of years, especially as it relates to that type of operation with my VFD.

    Part of that is the change in the fire environment.

    I addition, here with my VFD, there may not be an officer coming in behind me. There is not much in the way of mutual aid training and almost no framework for arrival assignments without specific command by the IC.

    Again, if you feel that commanding from the initial line is for you, great. Have at it. In my current situation, it's simply not for me, and my current Chief agrees.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    if it went wrong

    The fact that we saved the house and the dog is still alive does mean that entering the structure was always good call or the right call.

    You are so right Bobby, better to burn every house down and kill everything inside.

    Frankly, if I was an officer, or a senior firefighter, and I saved the house, AND the family dog, and you started chastising me for it I would tell you to "Kindly GO F*** YOURSELF." and then I would turn and walk away from you.

    It would be quite the spectacle to be brought up on charges at your little VFD for saving a house and dog because you didn't like it. I would enjoy that very much. I would invite the press in to the hearing. How foolish will you look for punishing me for doing my job?


    In some cases it simply means that we got lucky and one of the bad things that could have happened didn't.

    Because no firefighters ever get injured or killed when every single ICS vest is handed out? Right Bobby? Seriously, how can you have such a convoluted view of how to do this job?

    After every interior operation there should be a discussion regarding the risks and the potential benefits of the situation. There should be discussion regarding some of the things that could have gone wrong. And there should be discussion regarding if the resources, command structure, training and experience was on scene to deal with the stuff that could have gone wrong if it went wrong.

    You are right, there should be a critique after every fire incident. BUT, a critique is NOT an inquisition to sell your agenda. It is a look at what went right and what, if anything went wrong. nFrom reading what you have posted here I know EXACTLY what this post incident critique qould look like if you were involved. It would be nothing more than you attacking whatever decisions were made by any officer that decided to go interior with the manpower on hand.

    Just curios Bobby, did you chastise your chief for his free lancing use of a fire extinguisher on a stove fire? You know the one where no back up line was in place, command was inside the building, and no scba was used. If you didn't, you are the worst kind of hypocrite. Chastise the underlings and suck the butt of the boss.


    In hindsight, it may be decided that making entry was in fact, not a good idea.

    Yeah, unless it is your chief then you come on these forum and brag about what a great job he did. While violating all the safety rules you expect everyone else to follow.

    The problem is that for any new officers on my volunteer department, it will be a struggle as there simply are very few real world runs of any real significance for them to garner command experience.

    Frankly, why would any of them want to be an officer anyways? Knowing that you will chastise anything they do other than standing outside and spraying water in from the exterior?
    More of the same bovine scatological nonsense from you.
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  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Oh and can't forget the fact that we haven't had a LODD or injury in over 10+ years
    Um, let's see here.

    In the 87 years of Department number 1, I can't think of a single LODD the department suffered.... If it happened, it happened more than 30 years ago....

    Before I came along, they operated interior with less than stellar trucks and less than stellar gear, and everyone still went home....

    So keep patting yourself on the back and b*tching at others... It seems to be all you know how to do anyway.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There are many other factors. lack of funding to safely operate interior. lack of manpower. lack of a pool to draw manpower from. Distance from mutual aid. Lack of a Water suupply or a lack of funding to purchase adequate tankers.

    And yes, lack of leadership. Certainly some of that can be traced to a lack of leadship training as well, which may or may not be available in thier are or through thier state training system.

    So there are plenty of factors that can influence a departments operations. To say that they are controlled by the fire department is ignorant.

    Training is totally controlled by the department itself. If you have trained senior firefighters, it is their job to make sure the rookies are up to par and learning. You also said back a few pages that your department has no problem paying for training when members want it. Fail number 1 for you.

    And that's great.

    What's your budget? You also live in PA, which has a rich history and stromng tradition of volunteer stafferd fire departments. You amy also have a young population.

    There are parts of the counntry that do not have a strong tradition of volunteer firefighting and recruiting members is a constant struggle. There are communtities, such as my volunteer departm,ent's area that has a demographic trenfing towards an older population with a very limited under 40-pool to draw from.

    Again, saying 'we do it in our community and you should be able to do it in your's" is ignorant of the financial, social, demograhic and operational differences from place to place. [/COLOR]

    We receive around an average is $17,000 from our township each year, which is less than half of our operating costs.

    Are you kidding me? Not counting the 2 junior members we have, I am the youngest firefighter in my department. Everyone else is 30+ years old. The average age in our first due is 35 years old.


    And our officers are good leaders as well. the members, for the most part, work hard to make the department better. But we are limited, and there is no problem with recognizing your limits.

    Good leaders and good firefighters wouldn't stand there while someone's home burns to the ground because you "don't go interior" for your **** poor excuses. You don't even make an attempt.

    As far as training most of our members attend training. Many of them go above and beyond. Some don't. Would I like them to? Yup, but I understand that some of them just don't have the commitment to the fire service that I do, or some of our other members do, and that some have family and second-job commitments that limit the amount of scheduled and extra training they can attend. And that is ok as well.

    This job, volunteer or career, REQUIRES dedication. We have members that work 2 jobs and still make training, calls, meetings, fundraisers, etc. We have another that work a full time job, runs his own business, has time with his family, and still manages to be an active officer in the company and take state and national level training. If you would like your members to go above and beyond in training, make it happen. There is no room for half assing things in this job.

    You may feel comfortable in trying to attack aggressively short staffed. I don't. And many other VFDs don't. And that my friend, is, IMO perfectly acceptable.

    That is far from acceptable. Making an attempt and having to back out is acceptable. Knowing you and your crew gave it your all to do possible to save that person's home or that person's life is acceptable. Standing back and doing nothing is FAR from acceptable.

    We get one or two new guys a year.

    We haven't had a new member in over 3 years. Poor excuse once again.

    So do we.

    But for others it's a significant challenge, and I understand that.

    Again for you to expect that others can do it just because you can't is ignorant.
    Nothing in this line if work is easy. Like I said though, if you have dedication and members that WANT to do their job and be proficient in their craft, they will train. They will find ways to make it happen. The day where you don't need training and can sit around the station all day treating it like a social club are over. The public depends on us in their time of need, no matter what your location is like. They expect us to be at our best every time we step foot off the apparatus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You also live in PA, which has a rich history and strong tradition of volunteer staffed fire departments.
    Grab a pen and paper, come on up, and take some notes. We will gladly show you how it's done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    Grab a pen and paper, come on up, and take some notes. We will gladly show you how it's done.
    Thats what he's afraid of.............
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    Grab a pen and paper, come on up, and take some notes. We will gladly show you how it's done.
    When you're done in PA, buy yourself another pad of paper, and another pen, and head on up to WI and we can show you how to do the job too.
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    I am not sure we have as much to offer in Montana as you guys, but we are getting there.......Slowly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First assumption is that there is somebody to pass command to.

    As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident.
    So if you supposedly have no one to pass command to when only one officer responds, what happens when no officers respond? Is there no IC for the incident?

    If a non-officer can command that incident, then they could take command of the other incident until the officer is relieved inside.
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    We went interior on a hoarder fire a while back. The Officer was behind me and I was on the nozzle. The IC was a Senior firefighter with a ton of experience and training. Someone needed to go inside with me and someone needed to stay outside. Worked perfectly. The state fire marshal even said we made a hell of a stop. We could have made excuses and let the thing burn down but I like driving by the house knowing we made a good stop.......as safely as we could. Oh, by the way, LA how do you make an MVA with entrapment on the hiway completely safe? You know so all of your people wont jeopardize participation in the weekend fishing derby? I only ask because you did not answer me a few posts back. I cant see responding to a crash on the hiway with no questions asked and then not be willing to save gramema from burning up because it is too dangerous for your people.
    Last edited by conrad427; 05-13-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I am not sure we have as much to offer in Montana as you guys, but we are getting there.......Slowly.
    The way LA talks on here, everyone has something to offer that jackass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So if you supposedly have no one to pass command to when only one officer responds, what happens when no officers respond? Is there no IC for the incident?

    We have a seniority list. The senior man will take command.

    If it is a structure call, he will pass command to the senior officer of the first arriving mutual aid department, which generally will be the AMA engine from the eneighbotring city. if it is an MVA with entrapment, they will also roll to perform extrication, and once again, he will pass command to the senior officer from that agency when they arrive.




    If a non-officer can command that incident, then they could take command of the other incident until the officer is relieved inside.
    As far as taking command while the officer is inside, I would have issues with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    Grab a pen and paper, come on up, and take some notes. We will gladly show you how it's done.
    Learned my craft up north.

    I doubt there is very much that you could offer me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as taking command while the officer is inside, I would have issues with that.
    Why? What is that a problem for you? Because if you're the officer that means you actually have to go inside, or what?

    What fu*king difference does it make how many bugles are on commands helmet? Say I have a call on department 1. We'll say for sh*t's and gigs, that we have a driver, myself as LT in the officers seat, 2 firefighters, and Fyred in the back. Keep in mind, Fyred isn't an officer. Fyred has, sh*t 30+ years more than me in the fire service.... So we decide that he will be IC, outside, and I, as the LT, will go inside with another firefighter.... Where's the problem?

    Exactly, it's more f*cking excuses from you to justify your pussificiation of the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Learned my craft up north.

    I doubt there is very much that you could offer me.
    Based on your posts here, the sh*t I took at the fire station earlier could offer you more than you bring to the table.
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    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Learned my craft up north.

    I doubt there is very much that you could offer me.
    I beg to differ. Around here we have real firefighters. We are dedicated to what we do, we are trained, and we get the god damn job done.



    Also, make sure you go back a page and read my nice response to your bull**** responses.
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    You are so right Bobby, better to burn every house down and kill everything inside.

    Yup, that's exactly what I said (sarcasm).

    Frankly, if I was an officer, or a senior firefighter, and I saved the house, AND the family dog, and you started chastising me for it I would tell you to "Kindly GO F*** YOURSELF." and then I would turn and walk away from you.

    It would be quite the spectacle to be brought up on charges at your little VFD for saving a house and dog because you didn't like it. I would enjoy that very much. I would invite the press in to the hearing. How foolish will you look for punishing me for doing my job?

    That wouldn't be my call ... I'm a LT.

    Would I express my issues with the Officer involved? Yes. With the Chief? Possibly depending on my discussion with the officer or senior man, but what, if anything happened from there would be his call.


    Because no firefighters ever get injured or killed when every single ICS vest is handed out? Right Bobby? Seriously, how can you have such a convoluted view of how to do this job?

    Never said that, but certainly the less command structure you have the more likely something will be missed or a mayday/firefighter rescue situation will not be properly managed.

    You are right, there should be a critique after every fire incident. BUT, a critique is NOT an inquisition to sell your agenda. It is a look at what went right and what, if anything went wrong. nFrom reading what you have posted here I know EXACTLY what this post incident critique qould look like if you were involved. It would be nothing more than you attacking whatever decisions were made by any officer that decided to go interior with the manpower on hand.

    Again, in my VFD LT's do not run post-incident critiques.

    And yes, I likely would discuss the bad things that could have happened and how we would not have been able to deal with them if we operated interior while being short staffed.


    Just curios Bobby, did you chastise your chief for his free lancing use of a fire extinguisher on a stove fire? You know the one where no back up line was in place, command was inside the building, and no scba was used. If you didn't, you are the worst kind of hypocrite. Chastise the underlings and suck the butt of the boss.

    Actually, yes I did. Told him be probably should have waited the extra 30 seconds for the captain to enter w/ SCBa and knock down the fire with the extinguisher (which was the right call to minimize water damage given the fire).

    Yeah, unless it is your chief then you come on these forum and brag about what a great job he did. While violating all the safety rules you expect everyone else to follow.


    Given that he had a packed out member 20 seconds from being ready he should have waited, and I told him that.

    Given that there was no significant smoke and he was 2' inside the structure, it may not have been the best call but it certainly wasn't the worst.



    Frankly, why would any of them want to be an officer anyways? Knowing that you will chastise anything they do other than standing outside and spraying water in from the exterior?

    Ya, once again that is exactly what I have been saying (sarcasm again).

    There is a time and a place for interior attack. Those times can be quite frequent or quite rare depending on training, experience, resources, manpower, command leadership and structure, water supply, response time and access to mutual aid.

    In places like my combo department and previous VFD, those times are much more frequent than in my VFD. I don't apologize for that. That is the reality and IMO that is the way that I feel I need to operate to make sure that every one of my volunteers can go to work the next day and collect a full paycheck.

    As far as chastising, I'm a damn LT.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Learned my craft up north.

    I doubt there is very much that you could offer me.
    Any of my one-year Junior Firefighters could run circles around you in knowledge, skills, abilities, but most importantly, in courage and dedication.
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Why? What is that a problem for you? Because if you're the officer that means you actually have to go inside, or what?

    The officer will be the one in court if things go bad. So yes, I am the responsible adult who could be sued civilly as I was the legally responsible adult on the fireground.

    What fu*king difference does it make how many bugles are on commands helmet? Say I have a call on department 1. We'll say for sh*t's and gigs, that we have a driver, myself as LT in the officers seat, 2 firefighters, and Fyred in the back. Keep in mind, Fyred isn't an officer. Fyred has, sh*t 30+ years more than me in the fire service.... So we decide that he will be IC, outside, and I, as the LT, will go inside with another firefighter.... Where's the problem?

    Big problem. Fryed has 30 plus years and hundreds of fires under his belt. The kid that you want me to place in command may have one or two ... 1 or 2 .. working fires under his belt. Who would have to justify that in court or with OSHA if things went bad? Me.

    I have no issues with an experienced member being in command. Problem is we have one or two non-officer members that we can honestly can "sorta experienced".

    You also have 5 folks, which is more than we usually get for a daytime fire until AMA arrives.

    Just remember that you are the officer, so in the end, YOU are responsible for what happens at that incident.


    Exactly, it's more f*cking excuses from you to justify your pussificiation of the fire service.
    If pussifucation means that we reduce firefighter deaths and injuries, even if that means we lose more structures, I'm all in for that.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Any of my one-year Junior Firefighters could run circles around you in knowledge, skills, abilities, but most importantly, in courage and dedication.
    Maybe.

    But I have never worried about being especially courageous.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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