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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    We went interior on a hoarder fire a while back. The Officer was behind me and I was on the nozzle. The IC was a Senior firefighter with a ton of experience and training. Someone needed to go inside with me and someone needed to stay outside. Worked perfectly. The state fire marshal even said we made a hell of a stop. We could have made excuses and let the thing burn down but I like driving by the house knowing we made a good stop.......as safely as we could. Oh, by the way, LA how do you make an MVA with entrapment on the hiway completely safe? You know so all of your people wont jeopardize participation in the weekend fishing derby? I only ask because you did not answer me a few posts back. I cant see responding to a crash on the hiway with no questions asked and then not be willing to save gramema from burning up because it is too dangerous for your people.
    Fine. You had an IC.

    Legally that officer is till responsible for the scene, and he made a choice to allow that Senior Firefighter to be the IC.

    But you had an exterior IC running the fire from .. The exterior.

    We are a very young department with very only one or two experienced senior men who are not officers. One is a driver only who I would have no issues with having as IC, but he responds infrequently and will likely leave the fire department when he retires from his job with the Village next year. So for us that simply, most of the time, is not an option.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-14-2013 at 12:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup, that's exactly what I said (sarcasm).

    You've implied it repeatedly on these very forums.


    That wouldn't be my call ... I'm a LT.


    So now you're an officer?


    Again, in my VFD LT's do not run post-incident critiques.

    And yes, I likely would discuss the bad things that could have happened and how we would not have been able to deal with them if we operated interior while being short staffed.


    Why not? I just ran a post-incident critique last Monday at our meeting about the fire we had the week before... Seems pretty foolish not to have/let the company officers run a post-incident critique when they are either IC or actually in the sh*t....


    Actually, yes I did. Told him be probably should have waited the extra 30 seconds for the captain to enter w/ SCBa and knock down the fire with the extinguisher (which was the right call to minimize water damage given the fire).

    Don't believe you.

    Given that he had a packed out member 20 seconds from being ready he should have waited, and I told him that.

    Given that there was no significant smoke and he was 2' inside the structure, it may not have been the best call but it certainly wasn't the worst.


    Back to your same old tactics of changing your story...Again...



    As far as chastising, I'm a damn LT.
    Again, don't see your point... What exactly does a Lieutenant do in your department? Because from what you said in this post, it's really not a damn thing other than wear a bugle on their helmet....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    REALLY LA? How do you sleep at night? Why do you even bother in our business? Was McDonald's on a hiring freeze? You clearly have no regard for any life other than your own; do you not understand that our job is the polar opposite of that? Is it that difficult to comprehend? Why even volly if all you wish to do is corrupt the minds of those that want to be us (that's the seasoned guys on this board, clearly not you, and yes, I've been here before...)? Has it not been dumbed down enough for you, thread by thread, post by post, to grasp a simple concept? You're teaching a group of young men and women to become self-centered yardbreathers, and that the basics of the whole reason of why they signed up in the first place, to put their lives on the line for another don't matter, does that not bother you? Get out of my fire service!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I beg to differ. Around here we have real firefighters. We are dedicated to what we do, we are trained, and we get the god damn job done.



    Also, make sure you go back a page and read my nice response to your bull**** responses.
    Not going to comment on how dedicated your members are compared to mine.

    And not going to respond to your previous post as I have already answered it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    REALLY LA? How do you sleep at night? Why do you even bother in our business? Was McDonald's on a hiring freeze? You clearly have no regard for any life other than your own; do you not understand that our job is the polar opposite of that? Is it that difficult to comprehend? Why even volly if all you wish to do is corrupt the minds of those that want to be us (that's the seasoned guys on this board, clearly not you, and yes, I've been here before...)? Has it not been dumbed down enough for you, thread by thread, post by post, to grasp a simple concept? You're teaching a group of young men and women to become self-centered yardbreathers, and that the basics of the whole reason of why they signed up in the first place, to put their lives on the line for another don't matter, does that not bother you? Get out of my fire service!
    No, I am teaching them that there are situations where we cannot change the outcome. I am teaching them to recognize those situations. And yes, I am teaching them that we are priority, and there are situations throughout history where firefighters have been killed and injured when there wqs simply no chance to change the outcome, and that should never happen.

    I am teaching them to train as hard as they can while still taking care of thier famalies. I am teaching them to recognize both the limits of their skills sets and their department's skill sets and resources, and operate safely while doing what we can with the skill sets and resources we have at hand.

    In some cases, that may be quite a bit. in other cases, it may be quite limited. And either way, that's OK as long as they are doing the best that they can both personally and at the department level.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-14-2013 at 12:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The officer will be the one in court if things go bad. So yes, I am the responsible adult who could be sued civilly as I was the legally responsible adult on the fireground.
    Blah blah blah, blah blah blah. If you put the fire out, your problems go away and you don't have to worry about being sued.
    Holy Cow, what a novel concept. Put the fire out....


    Big problem. Fryed has 30 plus years and hundreds of fires under his belt. The kid that you want me to place in command may have one or two ... 1 or 2 .. working fires under his belt. Who would have to justify that in court or with OSHA if things went bad? Me.

    I have no issues with an experienced member being in command. Problem is we have one or two non-officer members that we can honestly can "sorta experienced".
    Don't see a problem, see you making more excuses. Send you guys to school, have them scour the state for training burns, actually hold them to some sort of standard, and stop feeding them your line of horse**** about it being okay to burn houses down.

    You also have 5 folks, which is more than we usually get for a daytime fire until AMA arrives.
    Okay fine, we'll go back down to 4 guys. Guess what, the MPO, and another firefighter will watch the outside while either Fyred or I assume working command until more people show up.

    Here, we'll drop it down to 3 people. The MPO will pump the truck and establish water supply, and either Fyred or I will assume working command and go to work.

    Here, we'll drop it to an MPO and myself. The MPO will pump, and I will find the best way to attack the fire alone. Whether that be find the seat of the fire and stick my head in the nearest window, see where it's at and then aim the nozzle at the fire there, or open the front door, sit on the step outside and hit the seat of the fire from there if possible. Because I know reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, among other things, in this scenario I am NOT making ENTRY to the structure ALONE. "I IS NOT GON' GO TO THE INSIDE OF THAT THAR BUILDING ON FIRE BY MAHSELF." But I'm still gonna kill as much of the fire as I can until more help arrives.

    Not that it matters, because you're gonna say all of that is unsafe regardless of whether or not we stayed outside.


    Just remember that you are the officer, so in the end, YOU are responsible for what happens at that incident.
    Ya don't say? So what happens when there isn't an officer on scene period? Because before I was LT, that happened more times than not, sooooooooo what then super genius?


    If pussifucation means that we reduce firefighter deaths and injuries, even if that means we lose more structures, I'm all in for that.
    Pretty sure aggressive attacks are being done on a daily basis without death and injury.... More excuses and justification for your cowardice
    I can't believe some of the sh*t you post....
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fine. You had an IC.

    Legally that officer is till responsible for the scene, and he made a choice to allow that Senior Firefighter to be the IC.

    But you had an exterior IC running the fire from .. The exterior.

    We are a very young department with very only one or two experienced senior men who are not officers. One is a driver only who I would have no issues with having as IC, but he responds infrequently and will likely leave the fire department when he retires from his job with the Village next year. So for us that simply, most of the time, is not an option.
    Blah blah blah, keep coloring while the adults do the real work.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Again, don't see your point... What exactly does a Lieutenant do in your department? Because from what you said in this post, it's really not a damn thing other than wear a bugle on their helmet....
    I view my role as basically managing the members according to policy as developed by the Chiefs and the captain.

    On the fireground I see myself as a small group leader, fulfilling a command role when needed but that should not be my primary function.

    I am not a leader. And I will never be a leader. And frankly have no real desire to be a leader. Not my style.

    I have been tasked with managing public education and assisting with the planning, development and delivery of training, again, primarily in management vs. leadership role.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not going to comment on how dedicated your members are compared to mine.
    Why? Because ANY one else's members make your members look ridiculous?

    And not going to respond to your previous post as I have already answered it.
    No, you've danced around it like everything else.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I view my role as basically managing the members according to policy as developed by the Chiefs and the captain.

    On the fireground I see myself as a small group leader, fulfilling a command role when needed but that should not be my primary function.

    I am not a leader. And I will never be a leader. And frankly have no real desire to be a leader. Not my style.

    I have been tasked with managing public education and assisting with the planning, development and delivery of training, again, primarily in management vs. leadership role.

    Sooooooo.... Nothing then. You just get to wear a bugle on your helmet and feel special. Gotcha.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not going to comment on how dedicated your members are compared to mine.

    And not going to respond to your previous post as I have already answered it.
    Exactly. Tuck your tail between your legs and walk away.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I am teaching them that there are situations where we cannot change the outcome. I am teaching them to recognize those situations. And yes, I am teaching them that we are priority, and there are situations throughout history where firefighters have been killed and injured when there wqs simply no chance to change the outcome, and that should never happen.
    Soooooo... You're teaching them to be self-centered yardbreathers... Gotcha

    I am teaching them to train as hard as they can while still taking care of thier famalies. I am teaching them to recognize both the limits of their skills sets and their department's skill sets and resources, and operate safely while doing what we can with the skill sets and resources we have at hand.
    No, you're teaching them that they can settle for burning houses down. If you'd work to get them a higher level of training, the sky would be the limit for their skills. But you're okay with telling them that doing their best whether civilians died or the house burned down is good enough, and to settle for the resources they have instead of working to better their situation.

    In some cases, that may be quite a bit. in other cases, it may be quite limited. And either way, that's OK as long as they are doing the best that they can both personally and at the department level.
    And there's the problem. You're okay with saying "You did your best. Grandma died and the house is in the basement, but you did your best." Sorry, if my best was burning houses down, I'd be trying a hell of a lot more to make my best better.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Blah blah blah, blah blah blah. If you put the fire out, your problems go away and you don't have to worry about being sued.
    Holy Cow, what a novel concept. Put the fire out....

    Maybe.


    Don't see a problem, see you making more excuses. Send you guys to school, have them scour the state for training burns, actually hold them to some sort of standard, and stop feeding them your line of horse**** about it being okay to burn houses down.

    Funny as we are doing that. just sent members to TX to attend 2 days of live fire training. Using the burn building at the nearby LSU facility next week and my combo departments burn building this week. Have a live car fire burned panned 3 weeks from now.

    Not much live fire training scheduled in the state right now.

    And yes, it os OK to burn houses down if that means we are not getting hurt.



    Okay fine, we'll go back down to 4 guys. Guess what, the MPO, and another firefighter will watch the outside while either Fyred or I assume working command until more people show up.

    If you are ok with that, have at it. I'm probably not as department experience level would probably not allow for that.

    Here, we'll drop it down to 3 people. The MPO will pump the truck and establish water supply, and either Fyred or I will assume working command and go to work.

    See above.


    Here, we'll drop it to an MPO and myself. The MPO will pump, and I will find the best way to attack the fire alone. Whether that be find the seat of the fire and stick my head in the nearest window, see where it's at and then aim the nozzle at the fire there, or open the front door, sit on the step outside and hit the seat of the fire from there if possible. Because I know reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, among other things, in this scenario I am NOT making ENTRY to the structure ALONE. "I IS NOT GON' GO TO THE INSIDE OF THAT THAR BUILDING ON FIRE BY MAHSELF." But I'm still gonna kill as much of the fire as I can until more help arrives.

    Sounds like our transitional attack. Hit it from the exterior.


    Not that it matters, because you're gonna say all of that is unsafe regardless of whether or not we stayed outside.

    Exterior operations only in a limited manpower situation is fine. See above.



    Ya don't say? So what happens when there isn't an officer on scene period? Because before I was LT, that happened more times than not, sooooooooo what then super genius?

    Happens a fair amount here too. Not really sure what the legal ramifications woulds be in that case.

    Pretty sure aggressive attacks are being done on a daily basis without death and injury.... More excuses and justification for your cowardice

    FF deaths and injuries have not changed significantly even though we are, as a service responding to fewer fires. I guess that would sorta discount your statement about attacks being made on a daily basis without death and injury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    Exactly. Tuck your tail between your legs and walk away.
    No ..

    You insist that because your department can do it, any department can, and that simply is not thecase.

    Regions of the country differ in terms of dedication to the volunteer fire service. regions differ in terms of how many folks have a desire to be volunteer firefighters. Training resources differ widely from state to state.

    The fact is volunteer firefighting, and the community support of volunteer departments through membership is very different in the northeast than it is in the south.

    Until you realize that not every department CAN be like yours, there is little point to the discussion.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Hate to cut short out fun and games, but I'm tired.

    I taught at FFI class tonight at another department.

    And tomorrow I'll be in the schools all day doing a pubed program, and then have to take one of those "valueless" certification tests, so I need my rest.

    Obviously I'm spending my time doing nothing to contribute to my community or the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No ..

    You insist that because your department can do it, any department can, and that simply is not thecase.

    Regions of the country differ in terms of dedication to the volunteer fire service. regions differ in terms of how many folks have a desire to be volunteer firefighters. Training resources differ widely from state to state.

    The fact is volunteer firefighting, and the community support of volunteer departments through membership is very different in the northeast than it is in the south.

    Until you realize that not every department CAN be like yours, there is little point to the discussion.

    Then explain to me how countless guys on here, from ALL over the country, volunteers and career, small departments and large departments, have all told you the same exact thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hate to cut short out fun and games, but I'm tired.

    I taught at FFI class tonight at another department.

    And tomorrow I'll be in the schools all day doing a pubed program, and then have to take one of those "valueless" certification tests, so I need my rest.

    Obviously I'm spending my time doing nothing to contribute to my community or the fire service.
    Considering you teach people to place themselves above those in need and that it is okay to let people die or their home burn to the ground, you are doing nothing to contribute to the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    Then explain to me how countless guys on here, from ALL over the country, volunteers and career, small departments and large departments, have all told you the same exact thing?
    Actually the folks I run into from other parts of LA, TX, ARK and even Mississippi and Missouri, where I taught NFA classes the last couple of months, are telling me how difficult it is to recruit and retain members, train the members and have enough members on scene to operate safely.

    Funny thing is I still communicate with my previous VFD in VT and they are saying that it is still a battle up there as well.

    Night night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe.
    No maybe. If you aggressively attack the fire, and put the fire out, you've taken 99% of the danger out of it.... No one is gonna get burned, because the fire is out. It's not gonna collapse on you because you made an aggressive attack and stopped it before it compromised building integrity... Medical issues after the fires out? Be in better shape. This is a physically demanding job. And no, I am not considered by anyone to be "in shape." I'm 6', 260lbs, but I'm not out of shape, nor am I gonna drop dead of a heart attack after a call, because I'm in shape to do the job.

    Funny as we are doing that. just sent members to TX to attend 2 days of live fire training. Using the burn building at the nearby LSU facility next week and my combo departments burn building this week. Have a live car fire burned panned 3 weeks from now.

    Not much live fire training scheduled in the state right now.

    And yes, it os OK to burn houses down if that means we are not getting hurt.


    Sounds to me like you're changing your story again. Which is it? You can get sufficient training, or you can't?

    If you train, you won't have to worry about getting hurt, AND you won't burn the house down.


    If you are ok with that, have at it. I'm probably not as department experience level would probably not allow for that.

    I am okay with that, and we will continue to put the fire out while you stand in the yard.



    See above.


    See above.


    Sounds like our transitional attack. Hit it from the exterior.

    That's nice, except I'm not talking about standing outside and trying to lob water at it. I'm talking about directly hitting the seat of the fire and putting the fire out before it consumes the whole house.



    Exterior operations only in a limited manpower situation is fine. See above.

    Exterior operations for you are fine in any situation, so you're point is moot.


    Happens a fair amount here too. Not really sure what the legal ramifications woulds be in that case.
    See, when you're concerned about putting the fire out, and not getting sued, you don't have to worry about legal rammifications.


    FF deaths and injuries have not changed significantly even though we are, as a service responding to fewer fires. I guess that would sorta discount your statement about attacks being made on a daily basis without death and injury.
    In 2009, we lost 93 FF's to LODD's, in 2010 it was 87, in 2011 it was 81, in 2012 it was 83. Seems like a declining trend to me...Are any of those an acceptable number? Of course not. But are we supposed to curl up in a ball and not do our damn job because we might die? I could walk out of my house, get in my truck, and get sh*tsmoked by a milk truck on my road. Does that mean I don't leave my house? No.
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    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No ..

    You insist that because your department can do it, any department can, and that simply is not thecase.

    Regions of the country differ in terms of dedication to the volunteer fire service. regions differ in terms of how many folks have a desire to be volunteer firefighters. Training resources differ widely from state to state.

    The fact is volunteer firefighting, and the community support of volunteer departments through membership is very different in the northeast than it is in the south.

    Until you realize that not every department CAN be like yours, there is little point to the discussion.
    Until you realize that your tactics and strategies don't embody some "new wave fire service," and that they embody cowardice, self-centeredness, and elitism, there will always be this discussion because myself and several others won't allow you to poorly and improperly influence new members.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hate to cut short out fun and games, but I'm tired.

    I taught at FFI class tonight at another department.

    And tomorrow I'll be in the schools all day doing a pubed program, and then have to take one of those "valueless" certification tests, so I need my rest.

    Obviously I'm spending my time doing nothing to contribute to my community or the fire service.
    Stroke you're ego a little bit more you egotistical self centered coward.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually the folks I run into from other parts of LA, TX, ARK and even Mississippi and Missouri, where I taught NFA classes the last couple of months, are telling me how difficult it is to recruit and retain members, train the members and have enough members on scene to operate safely.

    Funny thing is I still communicate with my previous VFD in VT and they are saying that it is still a battle up there as well.

    Night night.
    Perhaps, and this might be a WAY out there in right field thought, but perhaps if you offered more to your members than the opportunity to ride in a big shiny truck, and stand in the yard, there wouldn't be member recruitment and retention issues. Perhaps if you put forth more of an effort to actually HELP people and put the fire out, more people would be willing to join. Have you ever thought that people don't want to be part of an organization that settles for burning houses down and justifying it by saying everyone got to go home? What about that homeowner? They're never going home, not even to salvage some of the irreplaceable family heirlooms and pictures...

    People don't want to be part of a FAILED organization. Other than yourself, the rest of us got in the fire service to HELP people. When people our at their worst, we want to HELP them to salvage whatever we can to make their worst day a little better. People don't sign up to burn houses down, they sign up to put fire out and help their community. If they just wanted to burn houses down they'd be a damn arsonist.
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fine. You had an IC.

    Legally that officer is till responsible for the scene, and he made a choice to allow that Senior Firefighter to be the IC.

    But you had an exterior IC running the fire from .. The exterior.

    We are a very young department with very only one or two experienced senior men who are not officers. One is a driver only who I would have no issues with having as IC, but he responds infrequently and will likely leave the fire department when he retires from his job with the Village next year. So for us that simply, most of the time, is not an option.
    Listen LA. Save the smugness because I did not prove your point. Yes we had your magical "exterior IC" in place but he was not "running the fire". He was not "running" SH$T. We called him the IC so he could talk to dispatch and act as a look out. The Cap was inside as working command of operations. He was running the silly little thing of putting the fire out and saving the property of the citizens you seem to disdain. The Cap had enough confidence to put him in charge of certain things so we could concentrate on putting the FIRE OUT. You know that whole flexibility thing you know so much about. Putting people into positions to gain experience is better than sheltering them to feed your ego. Yes, yes, young membership, people have jobs, work out of town, family time, fishing derby, weekends, blah, blah, blah. We all have issues in our departments. Some of us B!@#^ and some of us do our jobs. You should be happy about a young membership, although you will probably brainwash them into thinking inaction and excuses are okay.

  24. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe.

    But I have never worried about being especially courageous.
    Let me see, I have a comment here that succinctly explains how I feel about this post of yours.

    DUH?
    Chenzo likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  25. #300
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    Okay, okay. I am calming down. I hate to let him get to me but MAN ALIVE! How is it that where ever this guy is everything that is good about the fire service gets sucked into a black hole. I am starting to think his problem is not the community he lives in but the fact that he lives in the community. I can see the advertisement now...."Tired of having fire protection in your town? Hire this guy!"
    slackjawedyokel likes this.

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