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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Thinkinggggggggggggggggggggg.. ......... Nope.

    Again why do I want to be interior during the most critical point in the operation ... The first 5-10 minutes?

    Hey man, if you think working command works for you, have at it.

    For me, it simply no longer to make sense from commanding from the inside.

    I do have a question though, and I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but I'm curious. If the Chief was on-scene at that fire, why wasn't he command and were you were not the interior sector officer?

    In both my career and VFD gigs, that is how we would have set it up given a Chief and LT on-scene.
    Why would you want to be inside during the most critical point in the operation? Because sometimes a set of eyes(and sometimes hands) INSIDE do far more good than outside. That critical 5 to 10 minutes can sometimes be shaved down and guess what, then things arent so critical. Dont get me wrong, there are times when being outside and working on the big picture is the thing to do,but in my experence, sometimes "passing command/fast attack" does away with any real need for a command structure to be put in place.
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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure it's possible. Departments do it every day, and most of the time it works.
    It worked ALL the time for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But all it takes is that one time when the IC isn't outside to notice changes is smoke or fire behavior. Or misses a critical radio transmission because he's inside performing fire attack, which is very easy with us as we have different departments coming in often on different frequencies,especially if he is the most experienced and feels that he needs to be on the nozzle.
    See above response. The firefighters in my old dept. were very capable of multi-tasking.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, I have used it many, many times. I made a decision not to use it a couple of years ago after realizing that fire conditions can change too fast with today's new fires for command to be interior. And my Chief sees the same thing.
    Good to know your chief is as pathetic as you. You continue to reinforce what I've believed about many VFD mindsets for several decades. That being you're in it for the glamor and none of the responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is how, as a department we have decided to, or not to operate. If you feel safe operating that way, have at it.
    See above response.
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    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?
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    How much is the fire going to grow in the five to ten that you need to get the ic vest on? Working command can be the difference between a good save and a total loss when shorthanded. However, if you need to practice your investigating skills, by all means let 'er burn down. Hopefully someday the taxpayers wont investigate you for letting gramma burn up in a room and contents fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post

    Good to know your chief is as pathetic as you. You continue to reinforce what I've believed about many VFD mindsets for several decades. That being you're in it for the glamor and none of the responsibility.

    I am glad you changed your hard line anti-volly stance to many instead of all. Remember, it was my local volly FD that did the working command actions that started this branch of the never ending LA argument.
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is how, as a department we have decided not to operate.
    There, I fixed your grammatical errors for you.
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?
    Not surprising. He always ignores the posts when someone proves that he's wrong. He latches onto the posts that he can spin in his favor, even though he's still wrong.
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I love the fact that I shot down every single thing he said 2 pages ago and he totally blew it all off. That ashamed of yourself that you have nothing to say?

    Actually I had already answered most of what you had to say.
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Why would you want to be inside during the most critical point in the operation? Because sometimes a set of eyes(and sometimes hands) INSIDE do far more good than outside. That critical 5 to 10 minutes can sometimes be shaved down and guess what, then things arent so critical. Dont get me wrong, there are times when being outside and working on the big picture is the thing to do,but in my experence, sometimes "passing command/fast attack" does away with any real need for a command structure to be put in place.
    First assumption is that there is somebody to pass command to.

    As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident. And as I have stated, fue to the fasct that of all the officers, I live the farthest from the majority of the district, it's very likely that if I am the only officer on-scene for initial attack, there will be no other officers responding.

    The fact is I want to command the incident from the exterior. I want to be able to face to face with the crew from that AMA engine rather than give them directions via the radio. And I want to not have to worry about changing channels from fireground to page to talk to 911 or fumblwe with a completely different radio to talk to my combo department if they are responding MA while trying to operate interior.

    And yes, i want to see fire conditions for myself from the exterior and walkaround the building a couple of times in the first 5 minutes.

    And yes, that may slow down fire conditions interior, or may preclude interior fire attack due to limited manpower or experience issues until the AMA engine arrives. But that is how I like to run my scenes.

    If you like interior working command, have at it.
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  10. #250
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    Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.

    We have identified that as an issue, and we likely are going to promote one member to Captain and at least one, and possibly 2 to LT this summer through a competetive process.

    We have been holding off due to our low membershiop. the Chief has been very concerned about the officer to member ratio.

    That being said, we have been working for the past year with the senior firefighters in terms of training regarding command and size-up. We have been putting them in the officer role during training as well as at scenes as, I have stated earlier, it's happens periodically that no officers respond and they have to assume that role.

    As you have pointed out severe weather or amajor event can, and has impacted our ability to respond officers.
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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First assumption is that there is somebody to pass command to.

    As I have stated it's quite common for us to have a single officer responding. In fact it happens periodically that we have no officers respond to an incident. And as I have stated, fue to the fasct that of all the officers, I live the farthest from the majority of the district, it's very likely that if I am the only officer on-scene for initial attack, there will be no other officers responding.

    The fact is I want to command the incident from the exterior. I want to be able to face to face with the crew from that AMA engine rather than give them directions via the radio. And I want to not have to worry about changing channels from fireground to page to talk to 911 or fumblwe with a completely different radio to talk to my combo department if they are responding MA while trying to operate interior.

    And yes, i want to see fire conditions for myself from the exterior and walkaround the building a couple of times in the first 5 minutes.

    And yes, that may slow down fire conditions interior, or may preclude interior fire attack due to limited manpower or experience issues until the AMA engine arrives. But that is how I like to run my scenes.

    If you like interior working command, have at it.
    Again , sometimes , if you actually fight fire, "the first five minutes" can be basically "the last five minutes " also. Again , not always by any means, but why fiddlefart around when you can slam the door and stop the fire from turning into a "vest" fire?
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    ?

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually I had already answered most of what you had to say.
    Not at all. Middle of page 11 is the post I'm talking about. No reply?
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  13. #253
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    Yes I do. Every single one of us took an oath to protect life and property, not the foundation, and not to stand outside while there are victims trapped inside. No department is FORCED to operate as an exterior department. They choose to do so because of lack of training, which is turn goes to **** poor leadership.

    There are many other factors. lack of funding to safely operate interior. lack of manpower. lack of a pool to draw manpower from. Distance from mutual aid. Lack of a Water suupply or a lack of funding to purchase adequate tankers.

    And yes, lack of leadership. Certainly some of that can be traced to a lack of leadship training as well, which may or may not be available in thier are or through thier state training system.

    So there are plenty of factors that can influence a departments operations. To say that they are controlled by the fire department is ignorant.


    You have gone on and on about rural volunteer departments not being able to do this or that. This is where I prove you wrong. My department is located in northeast Pennsylvania. Our first due coverage area is just over 25 square miles with just over 1,800 residents. During summer the number jumps to around 2,500 with all the vacation homes. Our 2nd due coverage area stretches into 2 other counties in 4 other communities, and 3rd due into 3 other communities, ALL rural departments.

    And that's great.

    What's your budget? You also live in PA, which has a rich history and stromng tradition of volunteer stafferd fire departments. You amy also have a young population.

    There are parts of the counntry that do not have a strong tradition of volunteer firefighting and recruiting members is a constant struggle. There are communtities, such as my volunteer departm,ent's area that has a demographic trenfing towards an older population with a very limited under 40-pool to draw from.

    Again, saying 'we do it in our community and you should be able to do it in your's" is ignorant of the financial, social, demograhic and operational differences from place to place.


    My department has 4 line officers, Chief, Asst. Chief, Captain, and myself the Lieutenant, and 6 active members. Never once did we not attempt an aggressive interior attack, in any of the areas we respond to. We have great leaders, experienced firefighters that help the new guys get experience, and we train our asses off.

    And our officers are good leaders as well. the members, for the most part, work hard to make the department better. But we are limited, and there is no problem with recognizing your limits.

    As far as training most of our members attend training. Many of them go above and beyond. Some don't. Would I like them to? Yup, but I understand that some of them just don't have the commitment to the fire service that I do, or some of our other members do, and that some have family and second-job commitments that limit the amount of scheduled and extra training they can attend. And that is ok as well.

    You may feel comfortable in trying to attack aggressively short staffed. I don't. And many other VFDs don't. And that my friend, is, IMO perfectly acceptable.

    We get one or two new guys a year.


    Somewhere I remember reading you saying something about live fire training facilities are a good distance from you. The closest facility to us is an hour away, others are 3+ hours away. We have a VERY tight operating budget, yet we still manage to make sure our members get the training they need and want.

    So do we.

    But for others it's a significant challenge, and I understand that.

    Again for you to expect that others can do it just because you can't is ignorant.

    I've managed to shsoot down every point you've attempted to make in your nonsense. What it comes down to is you are a **** poor leader, a selfish bastard, and a chicken****.




    Oh and can't forget the fact that we haven't had a LODD or injury in over 10+ years
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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  14. #254
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Perhaps it is time to rethink the logic of having the entire officer corps of your Volly FD working out of town as career firefighters. If they are on overtime, or are called back for a major incident, and you are involved at your paid job with an incident there is a real possibility you will have absolutely no officers at all to respond to an incident. Maybe it is time to reward some of your vollies that have shown some initiative by getting certified by making them officers so at least you can have a higher possibility of at least one officer responding or multiple officers to run an incident. Because frankly your current system lacks sufficient command and control counting on one officer to be command, safety, and operations for the entire incident. By lacking command and control it is severely lacking in overall firefighter safety.

    We have identified that as an issue, and we likely are going to promote one member to Captain and at least one, and possibly 2 to LT this summer through a competetive process.

    We have been holding off due to our low membershiop. the Chief has been very concerned about the officer to member ratio.

    That being said, we have been working for the past year with the senior firefighters in terms of training regarding command and size-up. We have been putting them in the officer role during training as well as at scenes as, I have stated earlier, it's happens periodically that no officers respond and they have to assume that role.

    As you have pointed out severe weather or amajor event can, and has impacted our ability to respond officers.
    Add to all of that the fact that every damn decision one of those junior officers makes will be questioned by YOU.

    I can already hear you saying to them "I would not have committed personnel inside that structure." And the reply..."But Bobby, the house is still standing, and we even saved the family dog. What did we do wrong?"
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  15. #255
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    if it went wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Add to all of that the fact that every damn decision one of those junior officers makes will be questioned by YOU.

    I can already hear you saying to them "I would not have committed personnel inside that structure." And the reply..."But Bobby, the house is still standing, and we even saved the family dog. What did we do wrong?"
    The fact that we saved the house and the dog is still alive does mean that entering the structure was always good call or the right call.

    In some cases it simply means that we got lucky and one of the bad things that could have happened didn't.

    After every interior operation there should be a discussion regarding the risks and the potential benefits of the situation. There should be discussion regarding some of the things that could have gone wrong. And there should be discussion regarding if the resources, command structure, training and experience was on scene to deal with the stuff that could have gone wrong if it went wrong.

    In hindsight, it may be decided that making entry was in fact, not a good idea.

    The problem is that for any new officers on my volunteer department, it will be a struggle as there simply are very few real world runs of any real significance for them to garner command experience.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Again , sometimes , if you actually fight fire, "the first five minutes" can be basically "the last five minutes " also. Again , not always by any means, but why fiddlefart around when you can slam the door and stop the fire from turning into a "vest" fire?
    True.

    And that is where the personal preference of the officer comes into play.

    As I said, there have been situations, especially with my 2 previous VFDs in VT, where I have made entry with the crew and commanded the incident from the interior. In all of those situations I knew that I had a strong officer - usually mutual aid - coming in behind me. I told them exactly what I was doing and specifics about the situation before making entry. In that situation there was also a strong framework regarding who was doing what as they arrived on the fireground as part of a pre-arranged plan.

    And yes, there have been situations where my going interior as the initial IC has given the crew enough manpower to knock down the fire. So yes, in some situations, it can work.

    But as I have said, I have changed my mind over the past couple of years, especially as it relates to that type of operation with my VFD.

    Part of that is the change in the fire environment.

    I addition, here with my VFD, there may not be an officer coming in behind me. There is not much in the way of mutual aid training and almost no framework for arrival assignments without specific command by the IC.

    Again, if you feel that commanding from the initial line is for you, great. Have at it. In my current situation, it's simply not for me, and my current Chief agrees.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-13-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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  17. #257
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    if it went wrong

    The fact that we saved the house and the dog is still alive does mean that entering the structure was always good call or the right call.

    You are so right Bobby, better to burn every house down and kill everything inside.

    Frankly, if I was an officer, or a senior firefighter, and I saved the house, AND the family dog, and you started chastising me for it I would tell you to "Kindly GO F*** YOURSELF." and then I would turn and walk away from you.

    It would be quite the spectacle to be brought up on charges at your little VFD for saving a house and dog because you didn't like it. I would enjoy that very much. I would invite the press in to the hearing. How foolish will you look for punishing me for doing my job?


    In some cases it simply means that we got lucky and one of the bad things that could have happened didn't.

    Because no firefighters ever get injured or killed when every single ICS vest is handed out? Right Bobby? Seriously, how can you have such a convoluted view of how to do this job?

    After every interior operation there should be a discussion regarding the risks and the potential benefits of the situation. There should be discussion regarding some of the things that could have gone wrong. And there should be discussion regarding if the resources, command structure, training and experience was on scene to deal with the stuff that could have gone wrong if it went wrong.

    You are right, there should be a critique after every fire incident. BUT, a critique is NOT an inquisition to sell your agenda. It is a look at what went right and what, if anything went wrong. nFrom reading what you have posted here I know EXACTLY what this post incident critique qould look like if you were involved. It would be nothing more than you attacking whatever decisions were made by any officer that decided to go interior with the manpower on hand.

    Just curios Bobby, did you chastise your chief for his free lancing use of a fire extinguisher on a stove fire? You know the one where no back up line was in place, command was inside the building, and no scba was used. If you didn't, you are the worst kind of hypocrite. Chastise the underlings and suck the butt of the boss.


    In hindsight, it may be decided that making entry was in fact, not a good idea.

    Yeah, unless it is your chief then you come on these forum and brag about what a great job he did. While violating all the safety rules you expect everyone else to follow.

    The problem is that for any new officers on my volunteer department, it will be a struggle as there simply are very few real world runs of any real significance for them to garner command experience.

    Frankly, why would any of them want to be an officer anyways? Knowing that you will chastise anything they do other than standing outside and spraying water in from the exterior?
    More of the same bovine scatological nonsense from you.
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  18. #258
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Oh and can't forget the fact that we haven't had a LODD or injury in over 10+ years
    Um, let's see here.

    In the 87 years of Department number 1, I can't think of a single LODD the department suffered.... If it happened, it happened more than 30 years ago....

    Before I came along, they operated interior with less than stellar trucks and less than stellar gear, and everyone still went home....

    So keep patting yourself on the back and b*tching at others... It seems to be all you know how to do anyway.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There are many other factors. lack of funding to safely operate interior. lack of manpower. lack of a pool to draw manpower from. Distance from mutual aid. Lack of a Water suupply or a lack of funding to purchase adequate tankers.

    And yes, lack of leadership. Certainly some of that can be traced to a lack of leadship training as well, which may or may not be available in thier are or through thier state training system.

    So there are plenty of factors that can influence a departments operations. To say that they are controlled by the fire department is ignorant.

    Training is totally controlled by the department itself. If you have trained senior firefighters, it is their job to make sure the rookies are up to par and learning. You also said back a few pages that your department has no problem paying for training when members want it. Fail number 1 for you.

    And that's great.

    What's your budget? You also live in PA, which has a rich history and stromng tradition of volunteer stafferd fire departments. You amy also have a young population.

    There are parts of the counntry that do not have a strong tradition of volunteer firefighting and recruiting members is a constant struggle. There are communtities, such as my volunteer departm,ent's area that has a demographic trenfing towards an older population with a very limited under 40-pool to draw from.

    Again, saying 'we do it in our community and you should be able to do it in your's" is ignorant of the financial, social, demograhic and operational differences from place to place. [/COLOR]

    We receive around an average is $17,000 from our township each year, which is less than half of our operating costs.

    Are you kidding me? Not counting the 2 junior members we have, I am the youngest firefighter in my department. Everyone else is 30+ years old. The average age in our first due is 35 years old.


    And our officers are good leaders as well. the members, for the most part, work hard to make the department better. But we are limited, and there is no problem with recognizing your limits.

    Good leaders and good firefighters wouldn't stand there while someone's home burns to the ground because you "don't go interior" for your **** poor excuses. You don't even make an attempt.

    As far as training most of our members attend training. Many of them go above and beyond. Some don't. Would I like them to? Yup, but I understand that some of them just don't have the commitment to the fire service that I do, or some of our other members do, and that some have family and second-job commitments that limit the amount of scheduled and extra training they can attend. And that is ok as well.

    This job, volunteer or career, REQUIRES dedication. We have members that work 2 jobs and still make training, calls, meetings, fundraisers, etc. We have another that work a full time job, runs his own business, has time with his family, and still manages to be an active officer in the company and take state and national level training. If you would like your members to go above and beyond in training, make it happen. There is no room for half assing things in this job.

    You may feel comfortable in trying to attack aggressively short staffed. I don't. And many other VFDs don't. And that my friend, is, IMO perfectly acceptable.

    That is far from acceptable. Making an attempt and having to back out is acceptable. Knowing you and your crew gave it your all to do possible to save that person's home or that person's life is acceptable. Standing back and doing nothing is FAR from acceptable.

    We get one or two new guys a year.

    We haven't had a new member in over 3 years. Poor excuse once again.

    So do we.

    But for others it's a significant challenge, and I understand that.

    Again for you to expect that others can do it just because you can't is ignorant.
    Nothing in this line if work is easy. Like I said though, if you have dedication and members that WANT to do their job and be proficient in their craft, they will train. They will find ways to make it happen. The day where you don't need training and can sit around the station all day treating it like a social club are over. The public depends on us in their time of need, no matter what your location is like. They expect us to be at our best every time we step foot off the apparatus.
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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You also live in PA, which has a rich history and strong tradition of volunteer staffed fire departments.
    Grab a pen and paper, come on up, and take some notes. We will gladly show you how it's done.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-17-2003, 04:52 PM
  5. y no one's been to my site?
    By TFD-JC06 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-27-2002, 11:34 AM

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