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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #21
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I'll be heading out taking a class on helo water drop crew disagreement mitigation.
    Finally! I won't be the ONLY one...
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I don't give a hoot where you were, respond to the thread. How is it possible that one teenager died, and another were injured in a VACANT building?

    Come on LA, explain it. Justify why you don't search vacant buildings. I'm not letting you walk away from this, because you've adamantly opposed operating interior, let alone on a vacant structure. Where's your logic and reasoning? Come on, back up your position.
    My department is not in Vegas. We don't have the problem of abandoned or vacant buildings being occupied by squatters. We also don't have a significant issue with abandoned or vacant buildings being utilized by kids to hangout in.

    In our area there is simply NO reason to commit interior to abandoned buildings to conduct searches. life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.

    If you want to drive down here, and find a reason why I need to be concerned about this in either my combination or volunteer districts, I'll put you up in my spare bedroom and feed you, but you'll be wasting your time because you simply will not find this to be an issue.

    That, my friend, is the reason.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #23
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My department is not in Vegas. We don't have the problem of abandoned or vacant buildings being occupied by squatters. We also don't have a significant issue with abandoned or vacant buildings being utilized by kids to hangout in.

    In our area there is simply NO reason to commit interior to abandoned buildings to conduct searches. life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.

    If you want to drive down here, and find a reason why I need to be concerned about this in either my combination or volunteer districts, I'll put you up in my spare bedroom and feed you, but you'll be wasting your time because you simply will not find this to be an issue.

    That, my friend, is the reason.
    Until the day it happens and you burn to death a group of kids for not even taking a look...
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  4. #24
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My department is not in Vegas.
    Thank god for Vegas.
    We don't have the problem of abandoned or vacant buildings being occupied by squatters. We also don't have a significant issue with abandoned or vacant buildings being utilized by kids to hangout in.
    Until it happens. Until you reach the day where there is a squatter, or a couple kids, hanging out in a vacant house and cause a fire. What happens that day? Do you shake your heads and say "NO, that's not possible, it's never happened before so how could it happen now?

    In our area there is simply NO reason to commit interior to abandoned buildings to conduct searches. life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.
    So... Let me get this straight. Saving property; not important. Saving Live; not important.... What exactly do you do then?
    If I recall correctly, the mission of the fire service is to "Protect lives and save property" is it not? Sooo...What exactly do you do then? If property and lives are unimportant to you, WHAT DO YOU DO?


    If you want to drive down here, and find a reason why I need to be concerned about this in either my combination or volunteer districts, I'll put you up in my spare bedroom and feed you, but you'll be wasting your time because you simply will not find this to be an issue.
    Give it time, it will happen. Do you think West Texas expected that fertilizer plant to blow up? Do you think Boston expected two bombs to be set off during a marathon? Do you think anyone expected 9/11? That's why you don't get it, man. It's not about what you have encountered. It's about what's POSSIBLE, not what always happens or has never happened.

    That, my friend, is the reason.
    I'm not, will not, nor have I ever been, your friend.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  5. #25
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    Thank god for Vegas.

    Vastly different community where squatting and utilizing empty buildings for this type of thing is the norm.

    Also vastly different resource set where likely they put at least 15-20 members on scene on the first alarm within 6-8 minutes.



    So... Let me get this straight. Saving property; not important. Saving Live; not important.... What exactly do you do then?
    If I recall correctly, the mission of the fire service is to "Protect lives and save property" is it not? Sooo...What exactly do you do then? If property and lives are unimportant to you, WHAT DO YOU DO?

    Yes, both of those are important. I have no issues committing to save lives when viable and necessary. At this time it's simply not necessary to commit to interior operations on abandoned buildings, or even vacant buildings to protect lives as the risk does not exist at a statistically significant level.

    As far as property we've discussed this before. i will not commit members to abandoned buildings with unknown structural issues, that the owner has decided to not maintain. Our lives are simply too valuable.

    Vacant property which is till maintained has a higher value, and given viable savable property in association with the correct training, experience, manpower, resources and water supply for the structure, I have no issues committing interior manpower. Given problems in any of those areas, again, our lives are too valuable to commit interior simply to save property,


    Give it time, it will happen. Do you think West Texas expected that fertilizer plant to blow up? Do you think Boston expected two bombs to be set off during a marathon? Do you think anyone expected 9/11? That's why you don't get it, man. It's not about what you have encountered. It's about what's POSSIBLE, not what always happens or has never happened.

    As far as West, given they had pressurized tanks on site combined with fertilizer, they should have considered that possibility.

    Given Boston, I am sure that they were very well aware that they were a possible target and have no doubt that they had plans for such an event. I am very sure that they knew that it was simply a matter of time.

    Funny thing is that my combo department covers a miliatary facility with a civilian explosives manufacturing component, and my VFD is the primary mutual aid department. My combo department covers a refinery with significant potential, and my VFD is the primary mutual aid department for a much more volatile low-flash point refinery in the district to our north.. And both my combo and VFD covers a very busy interstate, so we know all about planning and preparing for "possibilities".

    Will there be a day that we may have victims in a vacant or abandoned building when we arrive? Likely, yes. When will that day be? Who knows. But I do know that at this time, it's an unlikely possibility, and i will not commit members interior on abandoned building fires based on that outside possibility without some external reason to prompt me too. We simply are too valuable.


    I'm not, will not, nor have I ever been, your friend.

    That''s too bad. I'm a lot of fun at parties.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #26
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Will there be a day that we may have victims in a vacant or abandoned building when we arrive? Likely, yes. When will that day be? Who knows. But I do know that at this time, it's an unlikely possibility, and i will not commit members interior on abandoned building fires based on that outside possibility without some external reason to prompt me too. We simply are too valuable.
    Which is your way of continuing to avoid during your job.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That''s too bad. I'm a lot of fun at parties.
    When I was in high school, you were the person we invited because they were always good at helping to clean up while the rest of us went home with the girls.
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  7. #27
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.
    Ever. Occupied or vacant, known or unknown entrapment.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  8. #28
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, both of those are important. I have no issues committing to save lives when viable and necessary.
    Life safety and property protection aren't "important," there the purpose of the fire department. The fire department isn't supposed to show up in shiny trucks to watch your house burn down. The fire department shows up, puts the needs of OTHERS in front of the needs of their own, and with calculated risk does what needs to be done.

    AND AGAIN, your definition of viable and necessary is simply outrageous, and not the norm in the rest of the fire service.

    I sincerely hope your community knows that their fire department is run by elitists who refuse to do their job if it puts them at risk of ANYTHING.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  9. #29
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I was at an LSU-FETI officer's training class Friday night and Saturday.

    Amazing given that I don't give a hoot about training.
    Training is only worthwhile if you intend to use it.

    You've made it very clear you have no intention of doing so.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Life safety and property protection aren't "important," there the purpose of the fire department. The fire department isn't supposed to show up in shiny trucks to watch your house burn down. The fire department shows up, puts the needs of OTHERS in front of the needs of their own, and with calculated risk does what needs to be done.

    AND AGAIN, your definition of viable and necessary is simply outrageous, and not the norm in the rest of the fire service.

    I sincerely hope your community knows that their fire department is run by elitists who refuse to do their job if it puts them at risk of ANYTHING.
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #31
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My department is not in Vegas. We don't have the problem of abandoned or vacant buildings being occupied by squatters. We also don't have a significant issue with abandoned or vacant buildings being utilized by kids to hangout in.

    In our area there is simply NO reason to commit interior to abandoned buildings to conduct searches. life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.

    If you want to drive down here, and find a reason why I need to be concerned about this in either my combination or volunteer districts, I'll put you up in my spare bedroom and feed you, but you'll be wasting your time because you simply will not find this to be an issue.

    That, my friend, is the reason.
    But you admittedly do have vacant and abandoned buildings, therefore the potential for someone to be in there exists. Much more potential than a plane crash or a train derailment.
    They don't have to be labled "squatters", or any other descriptive tag for that matter. I get the feeling that your disdain for anyone being in someone elses property in "your" berg constitutes a reason to not render aid to them should things go bad.

    Signs should be posted at every entrance to town that "squatters, mischievous kids, curious land and property speculators, historical preservationists, amatuer or professional photographers, used brick dealers, or even you vermin just passin through, a lookin fer a place tu pee, will not be eligible for life safety privileges in this here town".
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  12. #32
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    e∑lit∑ism
    n.
    1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups (You and your fire departments) deserve favored treatment(From your community) by virtue of their perceived superiority, (The fact that you drive big red trucks with flashing lights) as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

    Yeah, sounds about right.

    People call the fire department for HELP, not to have another 10 guys to stand in the yard and watch the house burn down, not to look at them and say "Oh sorry, we're not saving gramma today, we only have 6 guys, not 12."

    It is the primary job of every officer to make sure, to the best of their ability, that everyone goes home. That does not mean, however, that we don't aggressively try to save lives, and even property. That's what you seem to fail to understand.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  13. #33
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.

    So tell me who here says "Gosh darn it, screw these firefighters, they are expendable, and the sooner they realize it the better? Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead! Run into that fully involved building, run into that collapsing structure. BANZAI!!" Well, tell me who has made any claim that safety is not important? The truth is you are not about safety, you are about control and your means of exercising control is to be this ridiculously zealous safety monitor. The hard truth is people expect the fire department to arrive and make the situation better, in order to do that you have to at least attempt to extinguish the fire or make a search...WHEN POSSIBLE! Your ridiculous comments in the garage fire topic about how you would very possibly lose that house show your complete willingness to just stand back and say "Oh Well. It ain't mine." But then again you need a conscience to feel anything when bad things happen to others and since nothing causes you to lose sleep it is clear you have none.

    You are a blight, a poison, and the worst of this so called new wave of safety culturists who should have sought a different career or volunteer agency to be involved in.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-06-2013 at 01:23 PM.
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  14. #34
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    My crews all went home. Many times after doing interior attack with only three people. I guess we were just that much better than the pathetic souls you call firefighters in your neck of the woods.
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  15. #35
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Maybe the fault here isn't on the firefighters. Maybe it isn't even on LA. Maybe it is on the leadership that actually makes decisions for the FD.

    Does anyone here remember the kid in the neighborhood when you were growing up whose parents always shot him down? The kid who wanted to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a soldier, or whatever and his parents told them over and over you aren't smart enough, tough enough, skilled enough, to be those people and you never will be. Eventually, like the beat dog, most of those kids give up on their dream and become just another mindless wage earning drone like their loser parents were. I am just wondering how long it takes telling your firefighters that they suck, alway will suck, and nothing they do will even put a dent in their suckiness, before they finally hang their heads and say "WE SUCK!" and quit trying with any enthusiasm to not suck.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  16. #36
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Maybe the fault here isn't on the firefighters. Maybe it isn't even on LA. Maybe it is on the leadership that actually makes decisions for the FD.

    Does anyone here remember the kid in the neighborhood when you were growing up whose parents always shot him down? The kid who wanted to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a soldier, or whatever and his parents told them over and over you aren't smart enough, tough enough, skilled enough, to be those people and you never will be. Eventually, like the beat dog, most of those kids give up on their dream and become just another mindless wage earning drone like their loser parents were. I am just wondering how long it takes telling your firefighters that they suck, alway will suck, and nothing they do will even put a dent in their suckiness, before they finally hang their heads and say "WE SUCK!" and quit trying with any enthusiasm to not suck.
    You bring up a valid point, but with the way that most VFD's or POC departments elect leadership, don't you think after a year or two of "You guys suck" that the members would have had enough and voted different people in?

    Or is it that the department has run into the situation where either 1. Nobody else is willing to do it or 2. No one else is qualified or ready to do it, so that leaves the leaders in there that just roam around telling their guys that they suck?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    My crews all went home. Many times after doing interior attack with only three people. I guess we were just that much better than the pathetic souls you call firefighters in your neck of the woods.
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    So... What's my excuse then? When I took Wisconsin's Entry-Level Firefighter class, I was in my senior year of high-school, going to school full time, working 25-35 hours a week as well.

    When I took Firefighter I and Firefighter II, I was working 40+ hours a week, and going to other college part time for some general education credits.

    When I took FADO, I was working part time (15-20hrs a week), and running 250+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-B, I was running 350-400+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-IT, I was working 35 hours a week, and running 250-350+ hours on the ambulance.

    I have a wife, and daughter, and bills too.

    I don't/didn't/won't make excuses not to train, because excuses don't end emergencies, training does.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-06-2013 at 03:28 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  19. #39
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    You bring up a valid point, but with the way that most VFD's or POC departments elect leadership, don't you think after a year or two of "You guys suck" that the members would have had enough and voted different people in?

    Look in our area. There are chiefs that have been chief for decades. Sometimes you just keep voting the same people in because it is easy.


    Or is it that the department has run into the situation where either 1. Nobody else is willing to do it or 2. No one else is qualified or ready to do it, so that leaves the leaders in there that just roam around telling their guys that they suck?

    Look they don't tell their guys they suck. They say things like "We can't afford that fancy training, or equipment, or new trucks..." But they never offer any viable alternatives or solutions to those issues. They just roll along with training like driving the trucks, standing in the parking lot spraying water, maybe laying out the folding tank... Nothing new, nothing challenging, nothing to put energy back into the department. Seriously, how much has the RIT TRAINING part of what we have done for training cost?

    We trained here in the metro with a 1950 and a 1937 engine and a 1949 Tender. Did we give up because we didn't have shiny and new? NO, we didn't. The truth is it is less about those tangible items and more about yur internal motivation. Hell, we did interior attacks from a 1950, and then 1960, 500 front mount pump engine, 1 1/2 inch bumper pre-connects, and our Scott II-a scba, and saved homes. Supposedly we should have surrendered. But we didn't. We ad strong leadership that just wouldn't take no for an answer and he made us better.
    It is the make-up of the department that matters and good leaders can take a rabble with junk and turn them into a firefighting force to be reckoned with. Or they can sit in the corner and weep and go on as a nothing forever. The choice is their's.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-06-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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  20. #40
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    Losers make excuses.

    Carry on.

    There is no difference in the commitment to being a vollie firefighter as there is a reserve LEO.

    In CA, reserve LEO's go through the same training and are required to maintain the same certs as professionals. Many do that while holding down a full time job and taking care of their families.

    It's obvious you want the glamor of being a firefighter without the actual responsibility.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-06-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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