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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Will there be a day that we may have victims in a vacant or abandoned building when we arrive? Likely, yes. When will that day be? Who knows. But I do know that at this time, it's an unlikely possibility, and i will not commit members interior on abandoned building fires based on that outside possibility without some external reason to prompt me too. We simply are too valuable.
    Which is your way of continuing to avoid during your job.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That''s too bad. I'm a lot of fun at parties.
    When I was in high school, you were the person we invited because they were always good at helping to clean up while the rest of us went home with the girls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.
    Ever. Occupied or vacant, known or unknown entrapment.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, both of those are important. I have no issues committing to save lives when viable and necessary.
    Life safety and property protection aren't "important," there the purpose of the fire department. The fire department isn't supposed to show up in shiny trucks to watch your house burn down. The fire department shows up, puts the needs of OTHERS in front of the needs of their own, and with calculated risk does what needs to be done.

    AND AGAIN, your definition of viable and necessary is simply outrageous, and not the norm in the rest of the fire service.

    I sincerely hope your community knows that their fire department is run by elitists who refuse to do their job if it puts them at risk of ANYTHING.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I was at an LSU-FETI officer's training class Friday night and Saturday.

    Amazing given that I don't give a hoot about training.
    Training is only worthwhile if you intend to use it.

    You've made it very clear you have no intention of doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Life safety and property protection aren't "important," there the purpose of the fire department. The fire department isn't supposed to show up in shiny trucks to watch your house burn down. The fire department shows up, puts the needs of OTHERS in front of the needs of their own, and with calculated risk does what needs to be done.

    AND AGAIN, your definition of viable and necessary is simply outrageous, and not the norm in the rest of the fire service.

    I sincerely hope your community knows that their fire department is run by elitists who refuse to do their job if it puts them at risk of ANYTHING.
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My department is not in Vegas. We don't have the problem of abandoned or vacant buildings being occupied by squatters. We also don't have a significant issue with abandoned or vacant buildings being utilized by kids to hangout in.

    In our area there is simply NO reason to commit interior to abandoned buildings to conduct searches. life safety is simply NOT an operational issue.

    If you want to drive down here, and find a reason why I need to be concerned about this in either my combination or volunteer districts, I'll put you up in my spare bedroom and feed you, but you'll be wasting your time because you simply will not find this to be an issue.

    That, my friend, is the reason.
    But you admittedly do have vacant and abandoned buildings, therefore the potential for someone to be in there exists. Much more potential than a plane crash or a train derailment.
    They don't have to be labled "squatters", or any other descriptive tag for that matter. I get the feeling that your disdain for anyone being in someone elses property in "your" berg constitutes a reason to not render aid to them should things go bad.

    Signs should be posted at every entrance to town that "squatters, mischievous kids, curious land and property speculators, historical preservationists, amatuer or professional photographers, used brick dealers, or even you vermin just passin through, a lookin fer a place tu pee, will not be eligible for life safety privileges in this here town".
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    e·lit·ism
    n.
    1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups (You and your fire departments) deserve favored treatment(From your community) by virtue of their perceived superiority, (The fact that you drive big red trucks with flashing lights) as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

    Yeah, sounds about right.

    People call the fire department for HELP, not to have another 10 guys to stand in the yard and watch the house burn down, not to look at them and say "Oh sorry, we're not saving gramma today, we only have 6 guys, not 12."

    It is the primary job of every officer to make sure, to the best of their ability, that everyone goes home. That does not mean, however, that we don't aggressively try to save lives, and even property. That's what you seem to fail to understand.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.

    So tell me who here says "Gosh darn it, screw these firefighters, they are expendable, and the sooner they realize it the better? Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead! Run into that fully involved building, run into that collapsing structure. BANZAI!!" Well, tell me who has made any claim that safety is not important? The truth is you are not about safety, you are about control and your means of exercising control is to be this ridiculously zealous safety monitor. The hard truth is people expect the fire department to arrive and make the situation better, in order to do that you have to at least attempt to extinguish the fire or make a search...WHEN POSSIBLE! Your ridiculous comments in the garage fire topic about how you would very possibly lose that house show your complete willingness to just stand back and say "Oh Well. It ain't mine." But then again you need a conscience to feel anything when bad things happen to others and since nothing causes you to lose sleep it is clear you have none.

    You are a blight, a poison, and the worst of this so called new wave of safety culturists who should have sought a different career or volunteer agency to be involved in.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-06-2013 at 01:23 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Elitists? Wow .. That's a new one.

    So because my primary concern is that every single one of my responding firefighters walks off the scene so that they can go to work the next day and provide for thier famalies, I am a elitist?

    To me , that is the primary job of every officer.
    My crews all went home. Many times after doing interior attack with only three people. I guess we were just that much better than the pathetic souls you call firefighters in your neck of the woods.
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    Maybe the fault here isn't on the firefighters. Maybe it isn't even on LA. Maybe it is on the leadership that actually makes decisions for the FD.

    Does anyone here remember the kid in the neighborhood when you were growing up whose parents always shot him down? The kid who wanted to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a soldier, or whatever and his parents told them over and over you aren't smart enough, tough enough, skilled enough, to be those people and you never will be. Eventually, like the beat dog, most of those kids give up on their dream and become just another mindless wage earning drone like their loser parents were. I am just wondering how long it takes telling your firefighters that they suck, alway will suck, and nothing they do will even put a dent in their suckiness, before they finally hang their heads and say "WE SUCK!" and quit trying with any enthusiasm to not suck.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Maybe the fault here isn't on the firefighters. Maybe it isn't even on LA. Maybe it is on the leadership that actually makes decisions for the FD.

    Does anyone here remember the kid in the neighborhood when you were growing up whose parents always shot him down? The kid who wanted to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a soldier, or whatever and his parents told them over and over you aren't smart enough, tough enough, skilled enough, to be those people and you never will be. Eventually, like the beat dog, most of those kids give up on their dream and become just another mindless wage earning drone like their loser parents were. I am just wondering how long it takes telling your firefighters that they suck, alway will suck, and nothing they do will even put a dent in their suckiness, before they finally hang their heads and say "WE SUCK!" and quit trying with any enthusiasm to not suck.
    You bring up a valid point, but with the way that most VFD's or POC departments elect leadership, don't you think after a year or two of "You guys suck" that the members would have had enough and voted different people in?

    Or is it that the department has run into the situation where either 1. Nobody else is willing to do it or 2. No one else is qualified or ready to do it, so that leaves the leaders in there that just roam around telling their guys that they suck?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    My crews all went home. Many times after doing interior attack with only three people. I guess we were just that much better than the pathetic souls you call firefighters in your neck of the woods.
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    So... What's my excuse then? When I took Wisconsin's Entry-Level Firefighter class, I was in my senior year of high-school, going to school full time, working 25-35 hours a week as well.

    When I took Firefighter I and Firefighter II, I was working 40+ hours a week, and going to other college part time for some general education credits.

    When I took FADO, I was working part time (15-20hrs a week), and running 250+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-B, I was running 350-400+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-IT, I was working 35 hours a week, and running 250-350+ hours on the ambulance.

    I have a wife, and daughter, and bills too.

    I don't/didn't/won't make excuses not to train, because excuses don't end emergencies, training does.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-06-2013 at 03:28 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    You bring up a valid point, but with the way that most VFD's or POC departments elect leadership, don't you think after a year or two of "You guys suck" that the members would have had enough and voted different people in?

    Look in our area. There are chiefs that have been chief for decades. Sometimes you just keep voting the same people in because it is easy.


    Or is it that the department has run into the situation where either 1. Nobody else is willing to do it or 2. No one else is qualified or ready to do it, so that leaves the leaders in there that just roam around telling their guys that they suck?

    Look they don't tell their guys they suck. They say things like "We can't afford that fancy training, or equipment, or new trucks..." But they never offer any viable alternatives or solutions to those issues. They just roll along with training like driving the trucks, standing in the parking lot spraying water, maybe laying out the folding tank... Nothing new, nothing challenging, nothing to put energy back into the department. Seriously, how much has the RIT TRAINING part of what we have done for training cost?

    We trained here in the metro with a 1950 and a 1937 engine and a 1949 Tender. Did we give up because we didn't have shiny and new? NO, we didn't. The truth is it is less about those tangible items and more about yur internal motivation. Hell, we did interior attacks from a 1950, and then 1960, 500 front mount pump engine, 1 1/2 inch bumper pre-connects, and our Scott II-a scba, and saved homes. Supposedly we should have surrendered. But we didn't. We ad strong leadership that just wouldn't take no for an answer and he made us better.
    It is the make-up of the department that matters and good leaders can take a rabble with junk and turn them into a firefighting force to be reckoned with. Or they can sit in the corner and weep and go on as a nothing forever. The choice is their's.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-06-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And likely your crews worked a lot more fires.

    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.

    But hey, that's just me.
    Losers make excuses.

    Carry on.

    There is no difference in the commitment to being a vollie firefighter as there is a reserve LEO.

    In CA, reserve LEO's go through the same training and are required to maintain the same certs as professionals. Many do that while holding down a full time job and taking care of their families.

    It's obvious you want the glamor of being a firefighter without the actual responsibility.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-06-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    So... What's my excuse then? When I took Wisconsin's Entry-Level Firefighter class, I was in my senior year of high-school, going to school full time, working 25-35 hours a week as well.

    When I took Firefighter I and Firefighter II, I was working 40+ hours a week, and going to other college part time for some general education credits.

    When I took FADO, I was working part time (15-20hrs a week), and running 250+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-B, I was running 350-400+ hours a month on the ambulance.

    When I took EMT-IT, I was working 35 hours a week, and running 250-350+ hours on the ambulance.

    I have a wife, and daughter, and bills too.

    I don't/didn't/won't make excuses not to train, because excuses don't end emergencies, training does.


    And you are the top 10% of the volunteer fire service.

    That is not a reasonable expecation for most volunteers. Sorry, it isn't.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is the make-up of the department that matters and good leaders can take a rabble with junk and turn them into a firefighting force to be reckoned with. Or they can sit in the corner and weep and go on as a nothing forever. The choice is their's.
    ^This is more what I was getting at. I wasn't trying to say that their is department leadership looking guys in the eyes at their meetings saying "You all suck."
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And you are the top 10% of the volunteer fire service.

    That is not a reasonable expecation for most volunteers. Sorry, it isn't.
    I beg to differ. Maybe in your area, settling for less than the best, is the norm. But that's not how it is up here. People don't want to settle, they want to be the best they can be, and if that means sacrificing a little bit of personal time to take a class or go to training, they will do it.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And you are the top 10% of the volunteer fire service.

    That is not a reasonable expecation for most volunteers. Sorry, it isn't.
    Actually it is a reasonable expectation for those who choose to strive for it.

    Your pathetic group sounds like it is okay with being in the bottom 10% or worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And you are the top 10% of the volunteer fire service.

    That is not a reasonable expecation for most volunteers. Sorry, it isn't.
    Well, 100% volunteer department that runs both fire and ambulance. We require first responder within the first 2 years, but are discussing changing that to EMT-B. We also require FF1 in order to pack up. That is on top of CPR and BBP. All fire apparatus drivers have to have FF1 as well as EVOC and pumps.

    It's not an unreasonable expectation here. I took FF1 while working full time with a 2 and 4 year old at home. FF1 is the starting point for all of the fire departments in the county (all volunteer). Granted, we have a good deal with MFRI offering night classes at least 4 times a year in our region, and day classes as well. There is no shortage of classes available.
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    LA, and anyone else in LA's position as far as training and certification, are any of you working to change this? Are you striving to make training and certification more accessible to your members? Or are you sitting on your hands saying woe is me and doing nothing to fix it?

    If you're sitting on your hands, why? Why aren't you working to make things better for you, your members, your department, and most importantly, your community?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    LA, and anyone else in LA's position as far as training and certification, are any of you working to change this? Are you striving to make training and certification more accessible to your members? Or are you sitting on your hands saying woe is me and doing nothing to fix it?

    If you're sitting on your hands, why? Why aren't you working to make things better for you, your members, your department, and most importantly, your community?

    Ummmmmmmmmmmm... let's think...................

    Have taught at least 2 Awareness and 2 Ops classes for my VFD. I have taught 2 FFI classes for my combo department plus a FFII class. I am currently helping 2 neighboring districts teach a FFI class. Helped one of those districts teach a FFI class 2 years ago.

    And that's not even counting the 14 or 15 or so Smoke reading classes I have done for other departments throughout 4 parishes, the 8 or 9 Large Vehilce Fire Operations classes and the 3 or 4 12-hour Search and rapid Intervention classes I have done in the past 3 years for other departments, in addition to teaching every other week at my VFD and 8 or 9 times a year at my combo department.

    Nope .. Just sitting on my hands.

    Any questions?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-07-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    Well, 100% volunteer department that runs both fire and ambulance. We require first responder within the first 2 years, but are discussing changing that to EMT-B. We also require FF1 in order to pack up. That is on top of CPR and BBP. All fire apparatus drivers have to have FF1 as well as EVOC and pumps.

    It's not an unreasonable expectation here. I took FF1 while working full time with a 2 and 4 year old at home. FF1 is the starting point for all of the fire departments in the county (all volunteer). Granted, we have a good deal with MFRI offering night classes at least 4 times a year in our region, and day classes as well. There is no shortage of classes available.
    What is the population of your district?

    Problem is that in many places in this country there is a shortage of classes and there may not be qualified instructors locally, or they may not have the time to plug the gaps in state training.

    Marylnad seems to fund fire training well. Seems like it's the same with Fryed in Wisconsin. In many states that's not the case and the funding will simply never be there.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    LA, and anyone else in LA's position as far as training and certification, are any of you working to change this? Are you striving to make training and certification more accessible to your members? Or are you sitting on your hands saying woe is me and doing nothing to fix it?

    If you're sitting on your hands, why? Why aren't you working to make things better for you, your members, your department, and most importantly, your community?
    Training in NJ is basically free. Many courses offered by county academies, some local academies, and some community colleges. The state of NJ requires FF1 for all firefighters. Volunteer through full paid...it's the same FF1. I have been teaching parts of it for about 15 years now and have had people of all types in the classes....and yes, mostly volunteer but also paid guys. MOST paid departments will then put their FF's through additional training.

    There is a slew of training available in many topics/areas's of the fire service.

    Availability and/or cost is not the issue around here......time is. Between work hours, family time, and whatever else people are doing with their time....they have less time available to get themselves trained. For them...it's just not a high enough priority in their life list. There are a few who make the time, but they are a very low minority.

    As for what "we" are doing about it.....we are now up to 7 or 8 instructors in the department so "we" can offer more trainings at more times. But we can't make people show up. We post catalogs, send out notices, encourage trainings....but can't make people go. We have minimum training standards for the department already...and we make sure they are met.

    If I had the power to make 30 hours in a day instead of 24....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What is the population of your district?

    Problem is that in many places in this country there is a shortage of classes and there may not be qualified instructors locally, or they may not have the time to plug the gaps in state training.

    Marylnad seems to fund fire training well. Seems like it's the same with Fryed in Wisconsin. In many states that's not the case and the funding will simply never be there.
    Not sure of the population, but we cover about 40 sq miles with a power plant in the first due and a LNG plant that we are 2nd due to. We run just over 2000 calls a year.

    I understand that not every place has the training opportunities that we have in Maryland. We are very fortunate. I still say in general that it's not unreasonable to expect volunteers to meet the FF1 and EMT standards. If they want to be a firefighter, they can find the time. The fact that the infrastructure isn't in place in some areas is a little bit of a different issue, but I will admit that it affects volunteers more than it would paid departments.

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    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-08-2004, 06:35 AM
  4. Really Big Brass One's!!!!
    By Jim917 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-17-2003, 04:52 PM
  5. y no one's been to my site?
    By TFD-JC06 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-27-2002, 11:34 AM

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