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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Again, don't see your point... What exactly does a Lieutenant do in your department? Because from what you said in this post, it's really not a damn thing other than wear a bugle on their helmet....

    I view my role as basically managing the members according to policy as developed by the Chiefs and the captain.

    On the fireground I see myself as a small group leader, fulfilling a command role when needed but that should not be my primary function.

    I am not a leader. And I will never be a leader. And frankly have no real desire to be a leader. Not my style.
    If this is the case, then you seriously need to resign as a Lieutenant because being a leader is exactly what a fire officer at any rank is supposed to be!!!
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  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No ..

    You insist that because your department can do it, any department can, and that simply is not thecase.

    Regions of the country differ in terms of dedication to the volunteer fire service. regions differ in terms of how many folks have a desire to be volunteer firefighters. Training resources differ widely from state to state.

    The fact is volunteer firefighting, and the community support of volunteer departments through membership is very different in the northeast than it is in the south.

    Until you realize that not every department CAN be like yours, there is little point to the discussion.
    It's really not a matter of if one department can do it, all should be able to do it.

    It's more of a matter of a Fire Department should be able to do certain things, like being able to go inside and rescue victims and put the fire out. If an organization is not able to do those core functions, then maybe they really aren't a Fire Department and shouldn't be referred to as such.

    This doesn't mean that fire protection in these rural areas have to be an all or nothing situation. If all the community can muster and support is a handful of guys that can only lob water from the outside so be it, but that organization should "labeled" to reflect that. You don't call a medical clinic a "hospital" because that's all the community will support. You call it a clinic because that's what it is.

    Even if you do realize this, there's still little point to any discussion with you.
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  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I really don't but I'm not like some of those running around quoting NFPA standards to support the fact that they want FFI as the national standard.

    Fine ... If they want FFI then they need to agree that it is unsafe to use 3 or 4 members for initial attack as NFPA states a fire requires 16 members.
    First, firefighting is inherently "unsafe" no matter how many members are on scene. "Unsafe" on the fireground can often be a very relative and subjective thing.

    Second, NFPA 1710's RECOMMENDATION is for 15-17 firefighters to be on scene within 9 minutes of notification of the alarm. It DOES NOT specify that all of these people must be on scene in order for an interior fire attack to be initiated.

    Third, initial fire attack with only 4 members on scene is an acceptable practice per OSHA's 2in/2out rules. In life threatening situations, initial fire attack with less than 4 members is an acceptable practice per OSHA's 2in/2out rule.

    Fourth, the presence of additional members on scene (i.e. RIT) does not specifically make the fire conditions more "safe" or less "risky". Bad stuff still happens while they are there. Their presence simply increases the possibility that one might be pulled to safety should something happen.
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    LA, I think I know what's happening here...

    Back when I was a teen, and had just started driving, my Mom was terrified of driving in the snow...to the point of refusing to even try to drive in the snow. She was determined that I not drive in the snow either and would have loved it if I was as terrifieds of it as she was. And yes, she said she did this to keep me from getting hurt...you know for my safety.

    I truly think you're scared of fire...and you are determined to transfer that fear to your volunteer members, and any other young firefighters that allow you to do so. For their safety of course.

    I didn't stop driving in the snow...and your attitude will not stop the vast majority of firefighters from going inside to fight fire, and make rescues unless conditions absolutely rule it out. And when I say conditions absolutely rule it out I'm talking heavily to fully involved, near backdraft conditions and/or obviously imminent or ongoing structural collapse. Not 'There's fire showing from a couple of windows'.
    Last edited by fotowun; 05-18-2013 at 07:09 PM.

  5. #425
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    He should change his screen name to "LA scared of fire educator"...
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    That's cold, that's just ****ing cold.

    Does your family know this is how you feel?
    So it's not cold that I should put the needs of myself over the needs of my brother firefighter's families?

    Really?

    And yes, my wife knows how I feel about risking firefighter's lives.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Okay, what about an MVA with entrapment on a busy hiway with no shoulder. Maybe just as dangerous as operating interior at a fire, maybe more dangerous if you look at the LODD's. I guess we cant leave them to rot away on the hiway as easily as we let them burn up in a house fire. I know I have asked this before but LA never answered it. Maybe it was not "apt".
    Pretty easy .... Put a blocking vehicle, or maybe evn two blocking vehicles to block the working lanes.

    Or maybe even shut down the highway.

    The primary source of risk is easily identifiable, and correctable.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    It's really not a matter of if one department can do it, all should be able to do it.

    It's more of a matter of a Fire Department should be able to do certain things, like being able to go inside and rescue victims and put the fire out. If an organization is not able to do those core functions, then maybe they really aren't a Fire Department and shouldn't be referred to as such.

    This doesn't mean that fire protection in these rural areas have to be an all or nothing situation. If all the community can muster and support is a handful of guys that can only lob water from the outside so be it, but that organization should "labeled" to reflect that. You don't call a medical clinic a "hospital" because that's all the community will support. You call it a clinic because that's what it is.

    Even if you do realize this, there's still little point to any discussion with you.
    We have discussed what a fire department should do.

    The reality is that there are many places that fire departments will never have the funding to purcahse apparatus, tools, equipment, SCBA and PPE to do this, have access to training to do this, have enough manpower physically capable of doing this or have response times that make this possible.

    You can say should ... should .. should ... all day long but it's not going to change the reality.

    By the way, do you have any name suggestions?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun View Post
    LA, I think I know what's happening here...

    Back when I was a teen, and had just started driving, my Mom was terrified of driving in the snow...to the point of refusing to even try to drive in the snow. She was determined that I not drive in the snow either and would have loved it if I was as terrifieds of it as she was. And yes, she said she did this to keep me from getting hurt...you know for my safety.

    I truly think you're scared of fire...and you are determined to transfer that fear to your volunteer members, and any other young firefighters that allow you to do so. For their safety of course.

    Scared? No. But understanding the current limitations of my VFD in terms of total manpower, training and experience vs. the affects of fire on the structure and the possible affects on the manpower does IMO, put limitations on our operations.

    I didn't stop driving in the snow...and your attitude will not stop the vast majority of firefighters from going inside to fight fire, and make rescues unless conditions absolutely rule it out. And when I say conditions absolutely rule it out I'm talking heavily to fully involved, near backdraft conditions and/or obviously imminent or ongoing structural collapse. Not 'There's fire showing from a couple of windows'.
    Don't really care directly about the majority of firefighters. I'm primarily concerned about the crew on my VFD and my combo department.

    If you think that we should be entering buildings with near heavily to fully involved, near backdraft conditions and/or obviously imminent or ongoing structural collapse, you, my friend ar a complete idiot and hope that you never get anywhere near anywhere of my men.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is bovine scatology and you know it. You'd be screaming at them to get in there and save your family.

    It's easy to say what you would do while typing on an obscure message board from the comfort of whatever confines you wrote this piece of trash.
    No, I wouldn't.

    People die in fires. Always have. Always will. And many times we in the fire service cannot change that.

    And that could include my family, my parents and my friends.

    The fact is expect firefighters to perform rescue operations up to the point where they become injured. At that point, the obligation to those in the home end and the obligation to their families, especially volunteers without significant financial protection for their families, begins.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Pretty easy .... Put a blocking vehicle, or maybe evn two blocking vehicles to block the working lanes.

    Or maybe even shut down the highway.

    The primary source of risk is easily identifiable, and correctable.

    The primary source of risk at a fire scene is just as identifiable and correctable.

    Get your *** in there and put the fire out.
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    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Pretty easy .... Put a blocking vehicle, or maybe evn two blocking vehicles to block the working lanes.

    Or maybe even shut down the highway.

    The primary source of risk is easily identifiable, and correctable.
    So what do you say about the guys that did everything right and still got killed or hurt?
    Also, if the primary risk is fire in a structure, haven't you already identified the risk? How would you ever correct that risk? Run away or perhaps stretch a line and put the danged fire out? Gee, if you put the fire out, have you not then taken action to mitigate the risk to the citizens and firefighters? You said shut down the hiway, easier said than done, thus mitigating the risk. Would not removing victims from a fire also be mitigating the risk to them? You can take steps to mitigate on a hiway and you can take steps to mitigate at a structure fire.
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  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    The primary source of risk at a fire scene is just as identifiable and correctable.

    Get your *** in there and put the fire out.
    Difference is there Jr. is that at an mVA, I can block the working lanes with 2 vehicles and eliminate the vast majority of the danger.

    I can close the road and block it, and eliminate the entire risk package posed by traffic hazard.

    Can't do that with rapid fire spread, structural collapse or any other identifiable hazard at a structure fire.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    So what do you say about the guys that did everything right and still got killed or hurt?

    Like it or not, many of those incidents were not blocked correctly. The NIOSH reports are pretty clear about that.

    Also, if the primary risk is fire in a structure, haven't you already identified the risk? How would you ever correct that risk? Run away or perhaps stretch a line and put the danged fire out?

    Assuming that the training, experience, manpower, resources and command structure in in place to manage and mitigate all the risks posed by that incident.

    Gee, if you put the fire out, have you not then taken action to mitigate the risk to the citizens and firefighters?

    Assuming you can do that without putting your members at undue risk due to a lack of experience, training, manpower, resources, command structure or water supply.

    You said shut down the hiway, easier said than done, thus mitigating the risk. Would not removing victims from a fire also be mitigating the risk to them?

    Far fewer factors to consider at an MVA. Shut down the highway and block it. Pretty simple. There are far more factors at a structure fire requiring far more manpower, training and experience to manage if you are going to reduce the risk to responders.

    You can take steps to mitigate on a hiway and you can take steps to mitigate at a structure fire.
    Again, see above. Two very different incidents.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Don't really care directly about the majority of firefighters. I'm primarily concerned about the crew on my VFD and my combo department.

    Um, DUH?

    If you think that we should be entering buildings with near heavily to fully involved, near backdraft conditions and/or obviously imminent or ongoing structural collapse, you, my friend ar a complete idiot and hope that you never get anywhere near anywhere of my men.

    This kind of absolute, nonsensical, made up from the depths of your delusional mind, is exactly why I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, stop countering the barrage of horse schitt that you spread here. Tell me where anyone here said we would enter under those conditions? Find one quote, find one, from anyone and repost it here. Otherwise, just like you know it is, this is just another diversion to take the light off from your cowardly refusal to even enter a building simply because of its construction type.

    NO ONE, other than you in your delusional lies, is saying anything close to this..."If you think that we should be entering buildings with near heavily to fully involved, near backdraft conditions and/or obviously imminent or ongoing structural collapse." Further, if you are not a command officer, and you have said over and over you aren't, even this part of your comment is a lie... "you, my friend are a complete idiot and hope that you never get anywhere near any of my men."

    The bald face, slap you in the face, make you realize what you really are, truth is this...While you look at every fire, every incident, every call for help, as a reason NOT to act, the rest of the fire service looks at every fire, every incident, every call for help, as an opportunity to, when appropriate, use our knowledge, experience, skills, and courage to do our job and save lives and property. That does not mean being suicidal. That does not mean running into fully involved, collpasing structures. But it certainly does mean taking appropriate risks to do the job. Something you clearly have no concept, no backbone, and no conscience, to allow you to do.

    I wonder if you could ever post something that was factual about what others have said. Or is it you realize finally how pathetic you sound and have to do anything you can to divert from that?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-18-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Difference is there Jr. is that at an mVA, I can block the working lanes with 2 vehicles and eliminate the vast majority of the danger.

    I can close the road and block it, and eliminate the entire risk package posed by traffic hazard.

    Can't do that with rapid fire spread, structural collapse or any other identifiable hazard at a structure fire.
    And when the jackass driver plows into the blocker and send a piece of fire apparatus flying across the roadway then what? Duck and cover?
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I wouldn't.

    You are either a liar or so pathetically devoid of human emotion that you are beyond all hope. Will yu not lose one moment of sleep that hypothetical night?

    People die in fires. Always have. Always will. And many times we in the fire service cannot change that.

    Blah blah blah...The odds are higher that they will when before you have even arrived on scene you have already written the structure and its contents off.

    And that could include my family, my parents and my friends.

    You see this is where you and I are cut from different cloth. Those on scene would have to kick my ***, or kill me, to stop me from trying to enter to save my family. You may not like that but that is how I roll. I am not going to stand by and just go "Oh well, just another fire death. No matter, I won't lose any sleep tonight over it."

    The fact is expect firefighters to perform rescue operations up to the point where they become injured. At that point, the obligation to those in the home end and the obligation to their families, especially volunteers without significant financial protection for their families, begins.

    Nonsense...When we enter we enter using all of our skills, experience, and training. You use nonsense, inability, and fear, to find excuses not to enter. Risk versus reward must be our guide. If you are not willing to risk anything you are a joke, and a poison to the fire service. AND being willing to take risks does not mean you are looking to be injured or killed.
    Just more blather from you.
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    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, I wouldn't.

    People die in fires. Always have. Always will. And many times we in the fire service cannot change that.

    And that could include my family, my parents and my friends.

    The fact is expect firefighters to perform rescue operations up to the point where they become injured. At that point, the obligation to those in the home end and the obligation to their families, especially volunteers without significant financial protection for their families, begins.

    Not only is Bobby narcissistic, he also exhibits sociopathic disassociation as evidenced by this post.
    Chenzo and RyanK63 like this.
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  19. #439
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    his kind of absolute, nonsensical, made up from the depths of your delusional mind, is exactly why I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, stop countering the barrage of horse schitt that you spread here.

    I take that statement back, I misread the posters statement.


    Tell me where anyone here said we would enter under those conditions? Find one quote, find one, from anyone and repost it here.

    See above, I misread the posters statement.
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  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    And when the jackass driver plows into the blocker and send a piece of fire apparatus flying across the roadway then what? Duck and cover?
    Pssssssssssssst .. Notice how I said 2 blockers?

    The fact is that if you look at situations where blockers, including multiple blockers, were effectily deployed, there have been a minimum of responder injuries.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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