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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just agreeing to disagree. I'm tired and there is bad weather coming.
    It's funny, you say this, but then keep posting..............
    Have a super sparkly night.
    And you still wonder why we think you have some sort of mental illness?
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Still the IC's decision as to how to act.

    In that case, it would be the IC's decision to take either take defensive exterior actions only, or no action, therefor exposing his personnel to very minimal risk in the case of exterior ops or no risk in the case of no action.

    In the end, the department can determine the risk based on what actions they decide to take.
    Do you even get off the truck or just do a drive by and say that looks bad?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    And you still wonder why we think you have some sort of mental illness?
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny, but in both my volunteer and combo departments it's the command staff - Chiefs - that make that call.
    Nice try, but here's what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If I have to put the members health at risk to mitigate the incident, we will have to find another mitigation technique. Or the incident simply may not be mitigated.
    You have stated in the past several times that you maintain a position of authority and have certain input over administrative and operational control of both of your organizations. Either you do, or you don't. Pick one or the other, not both.

    You have maintained multiple times in the past that you can, have, and will continue to act as a company and department level/executive officer and incident commander. Either you do or you don't. One or the other, not both.

    In this case, I will assume that you do. (Or at least try to be an officer.) Therefore, in the spirit of protecting the health and safety of your members who have not had NFPA physicals (after all, you ARE MISTER NFPA) and you really want to do right by your guys, you don't allow them to get on apparatus at the station or allow them to do anything at the scene, correct?

    Oh, wait....My bad, you already don't allow anyone to do anything at the scene.
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    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    you know a tree could fall on your house and crush you ----------maybe you need to move to the desert. I hear theres a feller named donna in Arizona always looking for recruits, heck , I bet you could even "bunk with ? till you get settled
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    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    Now you know how the citizens that your department serves feel when they're waiting on you to show up and deliberately destroy their homes.
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    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Nice try, but here's what you said:



    You have stated in the past several times that you maintain a position of authority and have certain input over administrative and operational control of both of your organizations. Either you do, or you don't. Pick one or the other, not both.

    You have maintained multiple times in the past that you can, have, and will continue to act as a company and department level/executive officer and incident commander. Either you do or you don't. One or the other, not both.

    In this case, I will assume that you do. (Or at least try to be an officer.) Therefore, in the spirit of protecting the health and safety of your members who have not had NFPA physicals (after all, you ARE MISTER NFPA) and you really want to do right by your guys, you don't allow them to get on apparatus at the station or allow them to do anything at the scene, correct?

    Oh, wait....My bad, you already don't allow anyone to do anything at the scene.
    I manage public education and have limited authority over daily training at my combo gig and there are limited occasions where I act as an IC.

    At my VFD I do function as part of the command staff and manage public education and manage training with the training captain at my VFD.

    That is the scope of my authority.

    I have no say in the implementation of physicals at my combo gig as there are 3 Chiefs and 8 Captains that are over me. My VFD Chief may ask me for input but likely any decision regarding that would be made by the 2 Chiefs and the Chief Administrative Officer.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    you know a tree could fall on your house and crush you ----------maybe you need to move to the desert. I hear theres a feller named donna in Arizona always looking for recruits, heck , I bet you could even "bunk with ? till you get settled
    A feller, eh?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Do you even get off the truck or just do a drive by and say that looks bad?
    Drive by and have the next due officer take command, of course.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is we are a rural VFD that for many years was fairly complacent regarding training and would take anyone who walked through the door, and mandated very little of them.

    New Chief. We have actually declined to offer membership to three folks in the last 2 years as they simply didn't meet his standards. We now enforce training standards which is a significant change and has led to 4 older members being told bye-bye in the last 18 months.

    They getting better, but many times they put stuff ahead of the fire department.
    I sense some sarcasm in you last statement....
    I do not think it would be right to ask a volunteer to give up everything to do the job, heck I wouldn't be much of a provider, husband, and father if I spent as much time as I would like at the firehouse. However, I do not feel that it is right to treat being a volunteer firefighter as a hobby, and expect others in my dept. to make at a gesture of faith. " Hey, we are going to learn how to rescue a victim from a below grade window tonight." "Well, but the big game is on." My eyes start to twitch at the thought.
    While I applaud the weekly training schedule it sounds like you don't demand the dedication the job requires. It all kind of turns into a vicious cycle after a while.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I manage public education and have limited authority over daily training at my combo gig and there are limited occasions where I act as an IC.

    At my VFD I do function as part of the command staff and manage public education and manage training with the training captain at my VFD.

    That is the scope of my authority.

    I have no say in the implementation of physicals at my combo gig as there are 3 Chiefs and 8 Captains that are over me. My VFD Chief may ask me for input but likely any decision regarding that would be made by the 2 Chiefs and the Chief Administrative Officer.
    I love how you conveniently avoided the part about what you do when you act as company or executive level officers at incidents.......
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The statement that I made was simply that firefighting is not necessarily an ultra hazardous activity. You disagreed.
    And who knows more about smoking than the good people at the American tobacco industry? They say smoking is safe, why would they lie? If you are dead you cant smoke. Also, who knows more about fire than the good folks at the Carins helmet company? The stickers says it is Ultra Hazardous unavoidably dangerous. Why would they lie? If you are dead you cant buy a new leather helmet. Wait, that did not turn out right.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I love how you conveniently avoided the part about what you do when you act as company or executive level officers at incidents.......
    Hell I'm proud of him for calling it Public Education instead of pubed. Only took 9411 post to get it right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Hell I'm proud of him for calling it Public Education instead of pubed. Only took 9411 post to get it right.
    He'll screw it up again...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I love how you conveniently avoided the part about what you do when you act as company or executive level officers at incidents.......
    .....Huh?

    So what do I do when I act as a company officer on-scene?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    And who knows more about smoking than the good people at the American tobacco industry? They say smoking is safe, why would they lie? If you are dead you cant smoke. Also, who knows more about fire than the good folks at the Carins helmet company? The stickers says it is Ultra Hazardous unavoidably dangerous. Why would they lie? If you are dead you cant buy a new leather helmet. Wait, that did not turn out right.
    You do realize that many of the disclaimers that you see on fire service gear and equipment is for liability, and is put there because the legal department says it has to be?

    Again, the tactics a department or incident commander chooses will determine the level of danger and risk by experienced by those members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You do realize that many of the disclaimers that you see on fire service gear and equipment is for liability, and is put there because the legal department says it has to be?
    So go right ahead and pull the liners out of yours because that statement is just CYA blanket legal jargon. Besides, it'll make you look slimmer in your next pictures of you turned out in your back yard, by your car, the mirror shot in your bedroom...etc.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    So go right ahead and pull the liners out of yours because that statement is just CYA blanket legal jargon. Besides, it'll make you look slimmer in your next pictures of you turned out in your back yard, by your car, the mirror shot in your bedroom...etc.
    Well, I already live on the edge because I routinely cut the tag off any new mattresses.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    so...quick question LAFE; if your combo department is roughly in the same area as your vollie gig, how do your officers (read career) gain the experience to become officers and chiefs? If the fire load is about the same, then your vollies should have the same amount of exp as your combo. Also, why don't your vollies know how to lead if no officer is present? It's a concept of transitional leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire71EMT View Post
    so...quick question LAFE; if your combo department is roughly in the same area as your vollie gig, how do your officers (read career) gain the experience to become officers and chiefs? If the fire load is about the same, then your vollies should have the same amount of exp as your combo. Also, why don't your vollies know how to lead if no officer is present? It's a concept of transitional leadership.
    Not the same animal as all.

    Combo district is a combination of suburban and rural areas with a population of 17K. VFD is quite rural with a population of less than 3K.

    Combo department is much busier in terms of fires of all types - structure, vehicle, brush and trash. They are also busier when it comes to working high-stress MVAs and they run EMS, unlike my VFD. My combo department does 1700-1800 incidents per year compared to about 100 at my VFD, so the vollies on my combo department have the opportunity to go to many more runs to gain experience.

    In addition, we have 14 or so volunteers at my combo gig that work full-time for other FDs, including some very busy companies in one of the neighboring cities.

    And part of leadership is experience and confidence based on that experience. The fact is that overall my VFD is very young beyond the officers with very little real world fire experience. In many cases they are still learning how to perform fireground tasks, much rather learn command ops.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    what is taught during training days? obviously not command stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that overall my VFD is very young beyond the officers with very little real world fire experience. In many cases they are still learning how to perform fireground tasks, much rather learn command ops.
    How young is very young?

    How long into their membership on your VFD are they?

    How are you helping to gain them some sort of experience?

    What fireground tasks are they still learning to perform?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire71EMT View Post
    what is taught during training days? obviously not command stuff.
    Actually we do have them take the roles of the IC as much as possible during training.

    As an example a month or so ago we did a class on initial fireground setup. During each scenario the senior firefighters were tasked with doing the size-up and directing the initial handline setup.

    Just a couple of weeks ago we did an inside class on initial sizeup.

    There are other times that we also put them into those situations during training.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-22-2013 at 11:50 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    How young is very young?

    Most of our non-officers are under the age of 25. We have a couple of older hands that have been around 10-15 years, but neither of them are able to be at training very much and make very few calls. Also neither one of them are interior, and one is likely to leave us in a few months when he retires from his job with the village.

    We have one member who is a little over 40 but has minimal fire experience as he just joined 6-8 months ago, though he has been very aggressive in terms of attending outside live fire training opportunities and has a made of couple of fires with the neighboring city where he also volunteers. We also have another older guy who has a couple of years on as a driver-only and just took on another older guy who just joined 2 months ago as a driver only.


    How long into their membership on your VFD are they?

    2-4 years. Problem is during that time they may have responded to a whooping 0,1 2or 3 building fires including mutual aid, a few vehicle fires and a handful of brush fires.

    They may only have 1, or maybe 2 interior entries during that time simply due to the low number of fires and the relatively high number of buildings fully involved on arrival.


    How are you helping to gain them some sort of experience?

    Really not much that we can do.

    We are working to schedule a few more live burns at the neighboring LSU facility, and trying to send them out of town more to classes involving live burns.

    Most of the acquired structures that we given, which is infrequent, are too badly deteriorated for interior burns.


    What fireground tasks are they still learning to perform?
    Depending on the members ..... A few of them can perform some basic skills such as laddering and very basic hose handling a fire attack. A few struggle.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-22-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our non-officers are under the age of 25. We have a couple of older hands that have been around 10-15 years, but neither of them are able to be at training very much and make very few calls. Also neither one of them are interior, and one is likely to leave us in a few months when he retires from his job with the village.

    I'm only 23. I gained all my certification training on my own time, while working and attending school. I've done all my training outside my department on my own time. I sacrificed personal time, and juggled my work schedule to make sure I was training and learning. Why does that seem like such a struggle for you and your members? Why would you not want to be the best you can?

    We have one member who is a little over 40 but has minimal fire experience as he just joined 6-8 months ago, though he has been very aggressive in terms of attending outside live fire training opportunities and has a made of couple of fires with the neighboring city where he also volunteers. We also have another older guy who has a couple of years on as a driver-only and just took on another older guy who just joined 2 months ago as a driver only.

    2-4 years. Problem is during that time they may have responded to a whooping 0,1 2or 3 building fires including mutual aid, a few vehicle fires and a handful of brush fires.
    They may only have 1, or maybe 2 interior entries during that time simply due to the low number of fires and the relatively high number of buildings fully involved on arrival.

    Which is where the push for outside training needs to come into play. Okay, you don't have a lot of fires. Why wouldn't you or your members want to commit more time to train and drill and whatever so that when you get those 1 or 2 fires every couple years that the skills are there to implement, instead of just saying "Well, we don't run that many fires so we'll just hope for the best."

    Really not much that we can do.

    There's always something you can do. It just depends on the commitment level of your members, and it sounds like they aren't committed enough to make themselves better for that 1 or 2 fires a year that you might have.

    We are working to schedule a few more live burns at the neighboring LSU facility, and trying to send them out of town more to classes involving live burns.

    And that's a start.

    Most of the acquired structures that we given, which is infrequent, are too badly deteriorated for interior burns.

    And that happens, but it doesn't mean you have to bury your head in the sand. Use it for search. Find ways to train INSIDE the structure before you have to burn it down. Then, once it comes to that point, use it to your advantage. You claim that most the structure fires you encounter with your VFD are too deteriorated to make an aggressive interior attack, soooooo wouldn't a structure that's too badly deteriorated to do interior burns work to your advantage?

    Hell, you've got to have someone or multiple people on your department that either work construction or know someone who does. See if you can get donations and reinforce a room or two to do live burns in. Stop making the excuse that it's too badly deteriorated and make do with what you can. Every year at the fire school I help with we have to rebuild and reinforce the trailers we burn, why can't you do the same with an acquired structure?


    Depending on the members ..... A few of them can perform some basic skills such as laddering and very basic hose handling a fire attack. A few struggle.

    2-4 years on the department and they're struggling with laddering and basic hose handling skills? Jesus man, you wonder why you get pounded on here about certification classes. If a member is 4 years in, and they can't do basic hose handling and ladder skills, you're "in-house" training really, REALLY needs some work.
    I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, if you answered these questions, it would change my train of thought on your training and staffing issues....

    But unfortunately, it didn't. It's still excuse after excuse.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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