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  1. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, the tactics a department or incident commander chooses will determine the level of danger and risk by experienced by those members.
    While this statement is predominately true, I think the disconnect in this part of the discussion again centers around what the role of a fire department and firefighter is.

    You seem to think that the most important part of being a fire department and firefighter is the BRT showing up at an incident and anything after that point is a bonus, while the rest of us know that the most important part is what happens after the BRT arrives. This is clearly demonstrated in your cavalier attitude towards the safety of the community you serve and the preservation of their property.

    While some of your statements about matching specific tactics of the incident at hand to the actual abilities of the personnel present has some merit, the main problem is that you continue to try to sell your reality as being "the norm" within the industry and that the rest of us are pushing the envelope with our tactics.

    Maybe if you approached what you post here with the acknowledgement that your area is "the exception" rather than "the rule" for the industry and explain the obstacles you face trying to follow suit rather than trying to assert that you are some sort of progressive trend setter and the rest of us are "dinosaurs", you might not get so much push back and maybe even some acceptance for some of your thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    While this statement is predominately true, I think the disconnect in this part of the discussion again centers around what the role of a fire department and firefighter is.

    You seem to think that the most important part of being a fire department and firefighter is the BRT showing up at an incident and anything after that point is a bonus, while the rest of us know that the most important part is what happens after the BRT arrives. This is clearly demonstrated in your cavalier attitude towards the safety of the community you serve and the preservation of their property.

    While some of your statements about matching specific tactics of the incident at hand to the actual abilities of the personnel present has some merit, the main problem is that you continue to try to sell your reality as being "the norm" within the industry and that the rest of us are pushing the envelope with our tactics.

    Maybe if you approached what you post here with the acknowledgement that your area is "the exception" rather than "the rule" for the industry and explain the obstacles you face trying to follow suit rather than trying to assert that you are some sort of progressive trend setter and the rest of us are "dinosaurs", you might not get so much push back and maybe even some acceptance for some of your thoughts?
    The fact is that minimal response and more often than not, exterior attack only is the norm for the majority of the rural LA volunteer fire service.

    There are places in southern LA where there are large VFDs, often with a significant family and community histories of volunteering, much like the northeast, that can consistently respond with significant resources and mount aggressive interior operations. These often are in areas with small response areas, short response times and quick access to plentiful mutual aid.

    I know that there were some very shorthanded VFDs in Vermont, where I previously lived that had the same issues and more often than not operations were exterior.

    I think this is more of the "norm" in rural fire departments across the country than you think.

    As far as the tactics of interior operation themselves, given the new nature of the contents and the buildings themselves, saying that any fire department should be primarily interior, unless they bring some very significant resources to the table in terms of sheer numbers of firefighters and command staff, experience and training is, in my opinion, pushing the envelope. The simple fact is that today's fires are burning much hotter and faster and the environment itself is far more dangerous and unpredictable than even 10 years ago and making entry is a very different operation with some very harsh consequences if the training, experience and resources are not in place to support it, which is often the case in small community combination and volunteer rural departments.

    This new environment, IMO, requires that we step back from the days of primarily interior operations unless there are viable lives to save an significant portion of the structure.

    The simple fact is the number of fires that a rural VFD can go interior on are shrinking fast, and that reality needs to be recognized when we talk about what firefighters "should be able" to do.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-22-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .....Huh?

    So what do I do when I act as a company officer on-scene?
    Pretty much nothing according to you.
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    I'm only 23. I gained all my certification training on my own time, while working and attending school. I've done all my training outside my department on my own time. I sacrificed personal time, and juggled my work schedule to make sure I was training and learning. Why does that seem like such a struggle for you and your members? Why would you not want to be the best you can?

    That's great, but remember who your father is. we do not have one member who's father ever served on the department, so there is no family tradition of service which is quite common up north.

    The fact is the expectations of firefighters in this area are not the expectations that you experience, nor where the expectation that I experienced during the first 20 years plus of my career up north. They simply do not exist, except in very small pockets down here.

    Call that an excuse, but that's the culture.

    It was a struggle for me to get the guys to train 3 hours on outside drill nights. In most places, the maximum is 2 and many don't even go that long. That is the norm for training for the area.

    The fact is in most places being a firefighter is a part of your life, and being good is often good enough.

    Trust me it's frustrating. Your probably not going to believe me but when it comes to training I am a hard charger. Always have been at the top or near the top in terms of training hours, and still am, by far, with my VFD not counting the training through my combo FT gig. I am struggling with the concept that being good enough is OK.




    Which is where the push for outside training needs to come into play. Okay, you don't have a lot of fires. Why wouldn't you or your members want to commit more time to train and drill and whatever so that when you get those 1 or 2 fires every couple years that the skills are there to implement, instead of just saying "Well, we don't run that many fires so we'll just hope for the best."

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]Now that we have a larger budget, it's an option. More money for hotels so we can travel for training. More use of the LSU training options. Our outside training numbers have increased by 4-5x over the past 18 months.

    There's always something you can do. It just depends on the commitment level of your members, and it sounds like they aren't committed enough to make themselves better for that 1 or 2 fires a year that you might have.

    In terms of real live fire experience, there is nothing we can do.

    Sure live fire is great but it's straw and pallets or propane fed fires vs hydrocarbon based fuels. It's concrete burn buildings vs. combustible structures. It's safety lines and command structure vs. real world staffing.

    Yes, live burns help, but without fires it's like practicing having sex with a blow-up doll.


    We are working to schedule a few more live burns at the neighboring LSU facility, and trying to send them out of town more to classes involving live burns.

    And that's a start.

    Yes, it is.


    Most of the acquired structures that we given, which is infrequent, are too badly deteriorated for interior burns.

    And that happens, but it doesn't mean you have to bury your head in the sand. Use it for search. Find ways to train INSIDE the structure before you have to burn it down. Then, once it comes to that point, use it to your advantage. You claim that most the structure fires you encounter with your VFD are too deteriorated to make an aggressive interior attack, soooooo wouldn't a structure that's too badly deteriorated to do interior burns work to your advantage?

    Sure, but we are pretty good at doing that already.

    Hell, you've got to have someone or multiple people on your department that either work construction or know someone who does. See if you can get donations and reinforce a room or two to do live burns in. Stop making the excuse that it's too badly deteriorated and make do with what you can. Every year at the fire school I help with we have to rebuild and reinforce the trailers we burn, why can't you do the same with an acquired structure?

    Not sure why or why not.


    2-4 years on the department and they're struggling with laddering and basic hose handling skills? Jesus man, you wonder why you get pounded on here about certification classes. If a member is 4 years in, and they can't do basic hose handling and ladder skills, you're "in-house" training really, REALLY needs some work.

    And it's getting better. Up until about 2 1/2 years ago training was a major issue. the fact is for some, it is a question about dedication and motivation. For a couple that keep getting passes for work, it's a problem with consistent attendance. And it's still an issue, though lesser than a couple of years ago, about demanding that the members take responsibility for training by the command staff.

    The fact is hit and miss skills is very, very common in the rural parish VFDs throughout the state. Yes, there are exceptions, and some of the combo departments, such *** mine, are more demanding about volunteer members being up to speed, but even in those departments, it's still not always the case.

    As I said, we are better. the majority of our active volunteers have a fairly solid skill core. there are a couple that are hit and miss, in part to their dedication, and I tell that to their faces. And then we have three driver's only -- one does have interior experience -- who attend training randomly and have a limited skill set beyond driving and basic pumping.


    I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, if you answered these questions, it would change my train of thought on your training and staffing issues....

    But unfortunately, it didn't. It's still excuse after excuse.

    Call it excuses if you wish, but that is the nature of the volunteer fire service here. That's the way that it is. And it's a struggle to, in some cases, convince these guys that they need to be better.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm only 23. I gained all my certification training on my own time, while working and attending school. I've done all my training outside my department on my own time. I sacrificed personal time, and juggled my work schedule to make sure I was training and learning. Why does that seem like such a struggle for you and your members? Why would you not want to be the best you can?

    That's great, but remember who your father is. we do not have one member who's father ever served on the department, so there is no family tradition of service which is quite common up north.

    The fact is the expectations of firefighters in this area are not the expectations that you experience, nor where the expectation that I experienced during the first 20 years plus of my career up north. They simply do not exist, except in very small pockets down here.

    Call that an excuse, but that's the culture.

    It was a struggle for me to get the guys to train 3 hours on outside drill nights. In most places, the maximum is 2 and many don't even go that long. That is the norm for training for the area.

    The fact is in most places being a firefighter is a part of your life, and being good is often good enough.

    Trust me it's frustrating. Your probably not going to believe me but when it comes to training I am a hard charger. Always have been at the top or near the top in terms of training hours, and still am, by far, with my VFD not counting the training through my combo FT gig. I am struggling with the concept that being good enough is OK.




    Which is where the push for outside training needs to come into play. Okay, you don't have a lot of fires. Why wouldn't you or your members want to commit more time to train and drill and whatever so that when you get those 1 or 2 fires every couple years that the skills are there to implement, instead of just saying "Well, we don't run that many fires so we'll just hope for the best."

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]Now that we have a larger budget, it's an option. More money for hotels so we can travel for training. More use of the LSU training options. Our outside training numbers have increased by 4-5x over the past 18 months.

    There's always something you can do. It just depends on the commitment level of your members, and it sounds like they aren't committed enough to make themselves better for that 1 or 2 fires a year that you might have.

    In terms of real live fire experience, there is nothing we can do.

    Sure live fire is great but it's straw and pallets or propane fed fires vs hydrocarbon based fuels. It's concrete burn buildings vs. combustible structures. It's safety lines and command structure vs. real world staffing.

    Yes, live burns help, but without fires it's like practicing having sex with a blow-up doll.


    We are working to schedule a few more live burns at the neighboring LSU facility, and trying to send them out of town more to classes involving live burns.

    And that's a start.

    Yes, it is.


    Most of the acquired structures that we given, which is infrequent, are too badly deteriorated for interior burns.

    And that happens, but it doesn't mean you have to bury your head in the sand. Use it for search. Find ways to train INSIDE the structure before you have to burn it down. Then, once it comes to that point, use it to your advantage. You claim that most the structure fires you encounter with your VFD are too deteriorated to make an aggressive interior attack, soooooo wouldn't a structure that's too badly deteriorated to do interior burns work to your advantage?

    Sure, but we are pretty good at doing that already.

    Hell, you've got to have someone or multiple people on your department that either work construction or know someone who does. See if you can get donations and reinforce a room or two to do live burns in. Stop making the excuse that it's too badly deteriorated and make do with what you can. Every year at the fire school I help with we have to rebuild and reinforce the trailers we burn, why can't you do the same with an acquired structure?

    Not sure why or why not.


    2-4 years on the department and they're struggling with laddering and basic hose handling skills? Jesus man, you wonder why you get pounded on here about certification classes. If a member is 4 years in, and they can't do basic hose handling and ladder skills, you're "in-house" training really, REALLY needs some work.

    And it's getting better. Up until about 2 1/2 years ago training was a major issue. the fact is for some, it is a question about dedication and motivation. For a couple that keep getting passes for work, it's a problem with consistent attendance. And it's still an issue, though lesser than a couple of years ago, about demanding that the members take responsibility for training by the command staff.

    The fact is hit and miss skills is very, very common in the rural parish VFDs throughout the state. Yes, there are exceptions, and some of the combo departments, such *** mine, are more demanding about volunteer members being up to speed, but even in those departments, it's still not always the case.

    As I said, we are better. the majority of our active volunteers have a fairly solid skill core. there are a couple that are hit and miss, in part to their dedication, and I tell that to their faces. And then we have three driver's only -- one does have interior experience -- who attend training randomly and have a limited skill set beyond driving and basic pumping.


    I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, if you answered these questions, it would change my train of thought on your training and staffing issues....

    But unfortunately, it didn't. It's still excuse after excuse.

    Call it excuses if you wish, but that is the nature of the volunteer fire service here. That's the way that it is. And it's a struggle to, in some cases, convince these guys that they need to be better.
    Something really jumped out at me -You used the excuse "its the culture" -yet we constantly hear from the everyone goes home crowd "CHANG THE CULTURE" -you get on here and talk about all your safety cliches and how departments far away (both in distance and demographics) need to change. Yet you accept a shade tree attitude in your own back yard and dismiss it as 'its the culture"
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great, but remember who your father is. we do not have one member who's father ever served on the department, so there is no family tradition of service which is quite common up north.

    Regardless of what you may think, that point is irrelevant to my advancement in the fire service. From the day I was born, my dad adamantly refused to push anything fire related onto me until I showed an interest, and it's still that way. If I don't show an interest in learning something or furthering my level of certification, it's not pushed upon me by him. Further, I've never had him as an instructor in any of my cert classes either. So what I'm saying is, the drive has come from me and only me.

    The fact is the expectations of firefighters in this area are not the expectations that you experience, nor where the expectation that I experienced during the first 20 years plus of my career up north. They simply do not exist, except in very small pockets down here.

    Why not? Why is it okay to settle for low expectations? That's the point of this whole discussion.

    Call that an excuse, but that's the culture.

    I'd be working harder to change the culture then.

    It was a struggle for me to get the guys to train 3 hours on outside drill nights. In most places, the maximum is 2 and many don't even go that long. That is the norm for training for the area.

    To be completely blunt, that's pathetic, and I would have an issue operating with someone who bucks training like that. Take the time to be proficient, or find something else to do. I'd rather have 6 competent guys that I trust my life with, than 26 who I wouldn't trust to tie there own shoe, let alone put my life in their hand.

    The fact is in most places being a firefighter is a part of your life, and being good is often good enough.

    That's just not acceptable to me. Don't get me wrong, we have members like that up here too, but that is NOT the majority as you've made it seem down there. This isn't bowling or softball. If you miss softball practice someone isn't going to die. If you skip and skimp on training in the fire service, someone is gonna get hurt, and it leads to your department burning houses down.

    Trust me it's frustrating. Your probably not going to believe me but when it comes to training I am a hard charger. Always have been at the top or near the top in terms of training hours, and still am, by far, with my VFD not counting the training through my combo FT gig. I am struggling with the concept that being good enough is OK.
    I believe that training is important to you PERSONALLY, if for no other reason than to have more certificates listed on your resume, but I have a hard time believing that you're making training a priority or you're trying very hard to make training a priority in your department. You seem to think that because they don't want to train because of other obligations, that it's acceptable to conduct exterior operations and burn houses down. TRAIN them to FIGHT the fire and SAVE peoples property. Once they realize that the training they bucked so hard because it took away from bowling league actually helped them save something, and gives them that sense of doing something good, they'll want to keep training...

    Now that we have a larger budget, it's an option. More money for hotels so we can travel for training. More use of the LSU training options. Our outside training numbers have increased by 4-5x over the past 18 months.

    It's a start. You can't change the world in one day, but you have to start somewhere

    In terms of real live fire experience, there is nothing we can do.

    If this is your answer, you're not trying hard enough.

    Sure live fire is great but it's straw and pallets or propane fed fires vs hydrocarbon based fuels. It's concrete burn buildings vs. combustible structures. It's safety lines and command structure vs. real world staffing.

    That's why you set things up to be as realistic as possible. Yeah, it may sound hard but I think it would be MUCH easier than what you're painting it out to be.

    Yes, live burns help, but without fires it's like practicing having sex with a blow-up doll.
    Something I'm sure your intimately familiar with.

    Sure, but we are pretty good at doing that already.

    There has to be something, among many things, that as a department you can use an acquired structure for to better your training even if conditions don't allow you to conduct live fire.

    Not sure why or why not.

    Perhaps then, that's something that you should look into doing.

    And it's getting better. Up until about 2 1/2 years ago training was a major issue. the fact is for some, it is a question about dedication and motivation. For a couple that keep getting passes for work, it's a problem with consistent attendance. And it's still an issue, though lesser than a couple of years ago, about demanding that the members take responsibility for training by the command staff.

    Then set attendance standards and enforce them. 2-4 years on and not being able to do basic hose handling or laddering skills is pathetic. How much of an asset is someone who can't do the BASICS of the job?

    The fact is hit and miss skills is very, very common in the rural parish VFDs throughout the state. Yes, there are exceptions, and some of the combo departments, such *** mine, are more demanding about volunteer members being up to speed, but even in those departments, it's still not always the case.

    You're not talking about above-basic skills, you're not talking about something that's hit and miss here, you're talking about the basics of doing the job, hose handling.

    As I said, we are better. the majority of our active volunteers have a fairly solid skill core. there are a couple that are hit and miss, in part to their dedication, and I tell that to their faces. And then we have three driver's only -- one does have interior experience -- who attend training randomly and have a limited skill set beyond driving and basic pumping skills.

    Dedication issues is a **** poor excuse. Find the time, or get off the fire department. Simple as that. Why is this such an issue in the fire service? If someone signs up to be on a softball team, then doesn't show up to any games or practices, THEY GET KICKED OFF THE TEAM. Why would you not want to enforce the same standards for something that involves life safety and property conservation?

    Call it excuses if you wish, but that is the nature of the volunteer fire service here. That's the way that it is. And it's a struggle to, in some cases, convince these guys that they need to be better.

    It's real simple to convince them. If you want to be on the fire department, show up to training. If you want to be on the fire department, take some classes. If your dedication lies somewhere else, and you're going to be a fair weather firefighter with no training and experience, turn in your pager and find a different activity, because you're essentially useless when needed.
    Not only is it the members responsibility to make sure there dedication lies in the right spot, but it's your job as a lieutenant in your VFD to PUSH THEM HARDER to want to be the best they can be, not consistently tell them that what they're doing is okay, and that it's okay they don't want to try any harder.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-26-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Something really jumped out at me -You used the excuse "its the culture" -yet we constantly hear from the everyone goes home crowd "CHANG THE CULTURE" -you get on here and talk about all your safety cliches and how departments far away (both in distance and demographics) need to change. Yet you accept a shade tree attitude in your own back yard and dismiss it as 'its the culture"
    And where have I accepted anything?

    I supported increased training attendance requirements at my VFD 2 years ago even though I knew it would mean losing folks. I pushed for even greater training attendance requirements at my VFD within the last 12 months even though they were not supported by all of the officers, and I got some of what I wanted.

    I pushed for the development of a rookie class and got it implemented.

    I pushed along with the training captain for a bigger training budget.

    And right now I'm pushing to have a couple of members supported by a couple of the officers to get kicked off the department for training attendance.
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    Regardless of what you may think, that point is irrelevant to my advancement in the fire service. From the day I was born, my dad adamantly refused to push anything fire related onto me until I showed an interest, and it's still that way. If I don't show an interest in learning something or furthering my level of certification, it's not pushed upon me by him. Further, I've never had him as an instructor in any of my cert classes either. So what I'm saying is, the drive has come from me and only me.

    But he is still a role model. The fact is that much of what you have learned about the fire service and it's traditions, and the dedication he displayed, rubbed off on you.

    That type of thing is simply not seen very much in this area as there is little in the way of family traditions.

    And being from an area with those sort of traditions, I know that there have been others at the firehouse that have affected your attitudes




    Why not? Why is it okay to settle for low expectations? That's the point of this whole discussion.

    And if it was my choice, I wouldn't. But I don't make the decisions about who stays and who goes, and who gets the pass if they don't make the requirements.

    I have pushed for higher standards at my combo department. The three Chief officers and most of the captains oppose it.

    I constantly push at my VFD for some of the chronic training offenders to go, however, they have folks supporting them. it is my choice? No. A couple of those folks have experience and skills, but don't show up for training, and honestly, don't show up for many calls, but when they do, they do contribute.

    The other problem is simply numbers. like it or not you can't run a VFD on 8 guys, which if we enforced the type of training standards you support, that is what most departments in this area would have. And some of those departments cover 200 or 300 square miles.

    That's the way that it is. And likely that is the way that it will stay. Increased training requirements will not make the situation better. It will only make it worse. So even though I may not like that reality, that is firefighting in the rural world, and I will support those departments because in many cases it's the best they can do. And yes, and in some cases, weather I like it or not it is the best they CHOOSE to do but no matter how I feel about it, it's not going to make it change.


    I'd be working harder to change the culture then.

    It takes more than one to change the culture. The fact is at my VFD there are 3 or 4 that are following me - Going to more outside training, taking certification tests and the like. But there are several others that are being told by others on the department that it is ok to slack and just be average.

    The fact is again, in many places good is good enough.


    To be completely blunt, that's pathetic, and I would have an issue operating with someone who bucks training like that. Take the time to be proficient, or find something else to do. I'd rather have 6 competent guys that I trust my life with, than 26 who I wouldn't trust to tie there own shoe, let alone put my life in their hand.

    I feel the same way. I believe that training should be 3 hours. Most here disagree and when you drag them beyond 2 they complain. That's why the boys .. well many of the boys .. hate it when I train because the know that it's not going to be get 'er done in an hour and go home.

    Believe it or not I am very old school about training. Sweat. Be tired. Be dirty. And do the evolutions more than once. But that simply is not the way that the departments down here are used to training, and though I have seen my VFD Chief give somewhat, he still tells me that often I push them too hard.

    Do I have any control over what other departments do? No. And I know that they will not train as hard as I would like but that's not my call. So like it or not, I know what we'll be getting mutual aid and what we'll be getting into when we run mutual aid. So yes, I settle... because that's the way that it is.

    And that is why I have the expectations I have, and why I accept the fact that we will lose structures that either my combo department or my VFD up north could have saved. It's my job to keep them alive, working within the skills et that they possess.


    The fact is in most places being a firefighter is a part of your life, and being good is often good enough.

    That's just not acceptable to me. Don't get me wrong, we have members like that up here too, but that is NOT the majority as you've made it seem down there. This isn't bowling or softball. If you miss softball practice someone isn't going to die. If you skip and skimp on training in the fire service, someone is gonna get hurt, and it leads to your department burning houses down.

    Trust me it's frustrating. Your probably not going to believe me but when it comes to training I am a hard charger. Always have been at the top or near the top in terms of training hours, and still am, by far, with my VFD not counting the training through my combo FT gig. I am struggling with the concept that being good enough is OK.

    I believe that training is important to you PERSONALLY, if for no other reason than to have more certificates listed on your resume, but I have a hard time believing that you're making training a priority or you're trying very hard to make training a priority in your department.

    I can do what I can do. My training officer is dedicated to training, but I have told him point balk that he simply is not demanding enough. he wants to be their friend and at the same time tell them what they need to do though they may not want to. he is too willing to accept excuses, and he is the final word on training, not me.

    I post classes. I push taking classes. I push them every night physically. I wish that we were tougher, though we are tougher than most VFDs in the area, I wish we went farther.

    We are doing promotions soon and we will be using specific certs as a minimum criteria for Captain and LT. That should be interesting.


    You seem to think that because they don't want to train because of other obligations, that it's acceptable to conduct exterior operations and burn houses down.

    That is the reality bro. As I have stated in another post, we have not burned abuilding down in 2 years, except for one which was on the ground on arrival and another that was almost there.

    Fact is we are not a bad department, but we could be a whole lot better, within the realistic limits of our response area and experience. Funny as that sounds it would actually mean letting some members go, which would actually hurt our rating on paper.


    TRAIN them to FIGHT the fire and SAVE peoples property. Once they realize that the training they bucked so hard because it took away from bowling league actually helped them save something, and gives them that sense of doing something good, they'll want to keep training...

    We do, but staffing is as staffing is. And no, I'm not going take the chances and risks some of you advocate to save property if I feel that it puts them at significant risk. the property simply isn't that important to me. They are.

    Training is fine, but there are situations that training can't overcome. You need numbers, and that is something that we will likely not have very often.

    Take last night .. Smoke in a structure. I rolled with 2 engines and 3 members total including myself as the only officer. My normal AMA was on a call. The department I called instead gave me a tanker (I asked for an engine and tanker) and 3 more members, including one Chief. Only 1 was interior excluding the Chief Officer. Had it been anything (was electrical wiring which went out when we killed the power), the building would have burned. The manpower, more often than not, just isn't there.


    It's a start. You can't change the world in one day, but you have to start somewhere

    Yes, it is a start.


    If this is your answer, you're not trying hard enough.

    We are talking about real world fire events. There is nothing that we can do to create real world fire calls.

    Well there is , but that's called arson, and not a good thing for firefighters to engage in.




    Something I'm sure your intimately familiar with.

    Going to let the blow-up doll comment pass.


    Sure, but we are pretty good at doing that already.

    There has to be something, among many things, that as a department you can use an acquired structure for to better your training even if conditions don't allow you to conduct live fire.

    We do when we get them, but as I said, it's very rare.


    And it's getting better. Up until about 2 1/2 years ago training was a major issue. the fact is for some, it is a question about dedication and motivation. For a couple that keep getting passes for work, it's a problem with consistent attendance. And it's still an issue, though lesser than a couple of years ago, about demanding that the members take responsibility for training by the command staff.

    Then set attendance standards and enforce them. 2-4 years on and not being able to do basic hose handling or laddering skills is pathetic. How much of an asset is someone who can't do the BASICS of the job?

    That is the question, and I don't see eye to eye with some members of the command staff at either my combo or VFD when that's the issue. But until their feelings change on that, I work with the hand that I am dealt.


    You're not talking about above-basic skills, you're not talking about something that's hit and miss here, you're talking about the basics of doing the job, hose handling.

    Bro, I think you would be shocked if you came down here and watched some of the operations in this area.

    It's discouraging at times. And scary. But most departments know their limits and don't try anything beyond exterior. That is the reality.

    Dedication issues is a **** poor excuse. Find the time, or get off the fire department. Simple as that. Why is this such an issue in the fire service? If someone signs up to be on a softball team, then doesn't show up to any games or practices, THEY GET KICKED OFF THE TEAM. Why would you not want to enforce the same standards for something that involves life safety and property conservation?

    Preaching to the choir.


    It's real simple to convince them. If you want to be on the fire department, show up to training. If you want to be on the fire department, take some classes. If your dedication lies somewhere else, and you're going to be a fair weather firefighter with no training and experience, turn in your pager and find a different activity, because you're essentially useless when needed.

    And that needs to come from the top. Bottom line that in most places, it won't.


    Not only is it the members responsibility to make sure there dedication lies in the right spot, but it's your job as a lieutenant in your VFD to PUSH THEM HARDER to want to be the best they can be, not consistently tell them that what they're doing is okay, and that it's okay they don't want to try any harder.

    You can only push so hard, and I've been told that I shouldn't push any harder as it may cause them to quit.

    Again, I work with the hand that I have been dealt and like it or not, support the top with the troops

    And yes, I have some significant disagreements with the top in private.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-22-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that minimal response and more often than not, exterior attack only is the norm for the majority of the rural LA volunteer fire service.

    And you are now the official spokeman for all of rural Louisiana Fire Departments?

    There are places in southern LA where there are large VFDs, often with a significant family and community histories of volunteering, much like the northeast, that can consistently respond with significant resources and mount aggressive interior operations. These often are in areas with small response areas, short response times and quick access to plentiful mutual aid.

    I know that there were some very shorthanded VFDs in Vermont, where I previously lived that had the same issues and more often than not operations were exterior.

    I think this is more of the "norm" in rural fire departments across the country than you think.

    Nope, sorry, I disagree. I taught full time in a far more rural area than I am in now and those FDs didn't settle for anything. they did massive fundraisers, had decent equipment, strict training, and were amazingly proficient.

    As far as the tactics of interior operation themselves, given the new nature of the contents and the buildings themselves, saying that any fire department should be primarily interior, unless they bring some very significant resources to the table in terms of sheer numbers of firefighters and command staff, experience and training is, in my opinion, pushing the envelope. The simple fact is that today's fires are burning much hotter and faster and the environment itself is far more dangerous and unpredictable than even 10 years ago and making entry is a very different operation with some very harsh consequences if the training, experience and resources are not in place to support it, which is often the case in small community combination and volunteer rural departments.

    So which is it now? You said not too many posts ago the very FEW light weight constructed buildings you had in your area were bsuinesses, now you are making it sound like you have tons of light weight constructed buildings. Contents made of plastic do burn hotter and faster, but that doesn't mean every building burns down because of it.

    Train your guys instead of spending your time defending why they will always be sub par.


    This new environment, IMO, requires that we step back from the days of primarily interior operations unless there are viable lives to save an significant portion of the structure.

    Nonsense. Either step up and do the job, or stop pretending. Because frankly, fire departments, large and small, city and rural, are putting out the fires and saving buildings that you won't fight or enter. So how do they do it? And why if they aren't follow your complete lack of knowledge and inexperienced based panic monger style of command aren't there thousands of LODDs every year?

    The simple fact is the number of fires that a rural VFD can go interior on are shrinking fast, and that reality needs to be recognized when we talk about what firefighters "should be able" to do.

    Maybe in your area where it sounds like you can't get anyone to respond or respond in a timely manner. I would respectfully request that when you want to paint the picture of how bad things are in YOUR area you stop using the broadstroke brush that all rural volly FDs are as bad off as yours.
    I know you believe in what you believe in, but it doesn't make it right for anyone else in the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where have I accepted anything?

    I supported increased training attendance requirements at my VFD 2 years ago even though I knew it would mean losing folks. I pushed for even greater training attendance requirements at my VFD within the last 12 months even though they were not supported by all of the officers, and I got some of what I wanted.

    I pushed for the development of a rookie class and got it implemented.

    I pushed along with the training captain for a bigger training budget.

    And right now I'm pushing to have a couple of members supported by a couple of the officers to get kicked off the department for training attendance.
    I thought you said that you have no say in anything at either department? Huh. Interesting. Must hhave been another Lafsucksasafirefighter.

    So in this reversed "yes I do have a say and do push for certain things attitude", you wont push for fit-for-duty physicals (an NFPA reccomendation) even though you are Mister NFPA?

    And you still havn't answered my question about being a company level or IC and what you do to protect the health and safety of your members and do you allow those who have never had a fit-for-duty physical (especially obese members) even to board the apparatus at the station if you are the officer- or if the IC on the fireground do you allow them to do anything? I mean, after all.....If you truly want to protect their safety and health, and they have not had physicals- the right thing to do would be to tell them to go sit down, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that minimal response and more often than not, exterior attack only is the norm for the majority of the rural LA volunteer fire service.
    I don't debate that's the case, but that makes them the fire service equivalent of a medical clinic rather than a hospital. They may provide a valuable service, but they shouldn't be presented as the equivalent to "real" fire departments.

    There are places in southern LA where there are large VFDs, often with a significant family and community histories of volunteering, much like the northeast, that can consistently respond with significant resources and mount aggressive interior operations. These often are in areas with small response areas, short response times and quick access to plentiful mutual aid.

    I know that there were some very shorthanded VFDs in Vermont, where I previously lived that had the same issues and more often than not operations were exterior.

    I think this is more of the "norm" in rural fire departments across the country than you think.
    It very well may be the case, but the rural fire departments are not the pace setters for the entire fire service.

    As far as the tactics of interior operation themselves, given the new nature of the contents and the buildings themselves, saying that any fire department should be primarily interior, unless they bring some very significant resources to the table in terms of sheer numbers of firefighters and command staff, experience and training is, in my opinion, pushing the envelope. The simple fact is that today's fires are burning much hotter and faster and the environment itself is far more dangerous and unpredictable than even 10 years ago and making entry is a very different operation with some very harsh consequences if the training, experience and resources are not in place to support it, which is often the case in small community combination and volunteer rural departments.

    This new environment, IMO, requires that we step back from the days of primarily interior operations unless there are viable lives to save an significant portion of the structure.
    Like I said, your reality might dictate the need to take that step back because you don't have the resources and ability to do otherwise, but you're pretty much out of line to tell the rest of us that we specifically need to do the same. Most of us are well aware that the fire environment has changed and we have made adjustments to address that, but interior operations in most cases is still very much appropriate.

    The simple fact is the number of fires that a rural VFD can go interior on are shrinking fast, and that reality needs to be recognized when we talk about what firefighters "should be able" to do.
    We can have that conversation if you want, but if we do, the conversation needs to be about the rural fire service only and you can't comment on the urban/suburban fire service during it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I thought you said that you have no say in anything at either department? Huh. Interesting. Must hhave been another Lafsucksasafirefighter.

    So in this reversed "yes I do have a say and do push for certain things attitude", you wont push for fit-for-duty physicals (an NFPA reccomendation) even though you are Mister NFPA?

    And you still havn't answered my question about being a company level or IC and what you do to protect the health and safety of your members and do you allow those who have never had a fit-for-duty physical (especially obese members) even to board the apparatus at the station if you are the officer- or if the IC on the fireground do you allow them to do anything? I mean, after all.....If you truly want to protect their safety and health, and they have not had physicals- the right thing to do would be to tell them to go sit down, right?
    I'm not going to get into a discussion on the merits and problems with requiring NFPA physicals in volunteer departments, and especially small rural VFDs. We have had that discussion before.

    Neither of my departments require NFPA physicals for the volunteers, hence it's not my place to demand that they have such as a company officer to ride the apparatus or operate at the scene.

    That's a command level decision.

    So what do I do at the company officer level to protect the health and safety of my members while responding? Make sure they are belted up when I am in the position of the member responsible for the rig. Monitor speed and driving. Make sure that they receive all pertinent information while enroute. Make sure they have all the PPE. Conduct an effective size-up. Make the right choices for their safety when determining offensive/defensive. Make sure that they have the right training for any assignments I give or receive. Request adequate resources for the incident or the assigned task. Monitor fire and structural conditions. Pull out my crews when it's clear that we are not changing the outcome. Make sure that all the members get rehabbed ....................
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I don't debate that's the case, but that makes them the fire service equivalent of a medical clinic rather than a hospital. They may provide a valuable service, but they shouldn't be presented as the equivalent to "real" fire departments.

    Disagree, and likely always will. They are "real" fire departments in every sense of the word.

    What about an engine company, or even an entire fire department (and I do know of one fairly large one as I taught a class there) that runs just BLS first response? Are they "real" medical providers?

    It very well may be the case, but the rural fire departments are not the pace setters for the entire fire service.

    No, but they do likely represent the majority of the fire departments in this country and would bet you that they also represent the majority of the firefighters.

    The simple fact is that the majority of the fire departments in this country face the issue of limited manpower and training challenges, and sometimes, often or always face significant challenges in mounting interior operations.


    Like I said, your reality might dictate the need to take that step back because you don't have the resources and ability to do otherwise, but you're pretty much out of line to tell the rest of us that we specifically need to do the same. Most of us are well aware that the fire environment has changed and we have made adjustments to address that, but interior operations in most cases is still very much appropriate.

    Injury stats don't tell me that we have stepped back from anything.

    If you want to believe that the nature of interior ops have changed and we are far closer to an LODD or injury every time we mount one compared to 10 or 15 years ago, fine, but I still believe that in many places the resources, training and experience just are not there, and there should be no expectation by anyone in the fire service that interior operations "should" be the norm or the expectation by any other firefighter when discussing the operations of another for any fire department.



    We can have that conversation if you want, but if we do, the conversation needs to be about the rural fire service only and you can't comment on the urban/suburban fire service during it.
    I have many years of experience in the suburban service as well in both NY and VT, so I do feel qualified to discuss it. In addition, there is a chunk of our district that is more suburban than rural, even though the majority of our district is rural.

    The fact is that many volunteer and small combination 1suburban departments are feeling the same pressures in terms of manpower and response. An example would be a suburban combi department in a neighboring parish that has 8 members on per shift, however it's not uncommon for at least 4, and at times 6, of them to be on ambulance runs and unavailable for fires at any given time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I don't debate that's the case, but that makes them the fire service equivalent of a medical clinic rather than a hospital. They may provide a valuable service, but they shouldn't be presented as the equivalent to "real" fire departments.

    Disagree, and likely always will. They are "real" fire departments in every sense of the word.
    No, they really aren't!

    As I've acknowledged, they may be doing the best they can and be "better than having nothing" in terms of fire protection for their community, but "real" fire departments consistently have the ability to go inside to rescue victims and put fires out. For comparison, a security guard may look like a police officer and may be able to do some of the same things police officers do and serve an important role in the community, but the fact remains that they simply aren't a police officer and their employer isn't a police department.

    What about an engine company, or even an entire fire department (and I do know of one fairly large one as I taught a class there) that runs just BLS first response?
    If all they run for calls is BLS first response, then they would appear to be an EMS agency rather than a fire department.

    Are they "real" medical providers?
    Well, I guess that would depend on whether or not they possess the necessary EMS certifications and EMS equipment to provide medical care.

    It very well may be the case, but the rural fire departments are not the pace setters for the entire fire service.

    No, but they do likely represent the majority of the fire departments in this country and would bet you that they also represent the majority of the firefighters.
    I guess that depends on what one considers to be "rural" and even if that is the actual case, they still don't represent the majority of fire responses in this country and in no way should they be the "yardstick" by which we measure a fire department.


    The simple fact is that the majority of the fire departments in this country face the issue of limited manpower and training challenges, and sometimes, often or always face significant challenges in mounting interior operations.
    Yet many are still able to actually do their job rather than make excuses about why they can't.

    Like I said, your reality might dictate the need to take that step back because you don't have the resources and ability to do otherwise, but you're pretty much out of line to tell the rest of us that we specifically need to do the same. Most of us are well aware that the fire environment has changed and we have made adjustments to address that, but interior operations in most cases is still very much appropriate.

    Injury stats don't tell me that we have stepped back from anything.
    What would be the source of your injury stats? Did you do an in depth analysis of those injury stats to weed out all of the injuries that are not the direct of result of interior fire ground operations? If not, then any conclusion you draw from those stats is nothing but pure speculation.

    If you want to believe that the nature of interior ops have changed and we are far closer to an LODD or injury every time we mount one compared to 10 or 15 years ago, fine, but I still believe that in many places the resources, training and experience just are not there, and there should be no expectation by anyone in the fire service that interior operations "should" be the norm or the expectation by any other firefighter when discussing the operations of another for any fire department.
    You really should proof read before you post because I'm sure this statement is not saying what you probably intended it to say.

    As myself and others have said, if you hang out a sign saying you are a fire department, then you better damn well be capable of providing at minimum, the core services of victim rescue and fire attack to support that.

    We can have that conversation if you want, but if we do, the conversation needs to be about the rural fire service only and you can't comment on the urban/suburban fire service during it.

    I have many years of experience in the suburban service as well in both NY and VT, so I do feel qualified to discuss it. In addition, there is a chunk of our district that is more suburban than rural, even though the majority of our district is rural.

    The fact is that many volunteer and small combination 1suburban departments are feeling the same pressures in terms of manpower and response. An example would be a suburban combi department in a neighboring parish that has 8 members on per shift, however it's not uncommon for at least 4, and at times 6, of them to be on ambulance runs and unavailable for fires at any given time.
    I too have experience in the urban, suburban and rural areas of the fire service and am qualified to discuss the matter. However, you wanted to discuss the rural fire service, so using a suburban combo department as an example tells me that you aren't prepared to have that discussion.

    As far as the example goes, if it is that common to have most of the on-duty staffing out staffing the ambulances, then unless there is a sizable volunteer component trained and able to consistently respond, it sounds like they may need additional paid staff on-duty for the fire side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, but they do likely represent the majority of the fire departments in this country and would bet you that they also represent the majority of the firefighters.
    They may represent the majority of the FD's in the country. However, the majority of Americans are protected by professionals.

    The majority of responses are handled by professionals.

    That is what matters.

    Believing that a bunch of pathetic hayseeds like yourself should drive the mindset for the rest of the real firefighters in America is more of your self delusion that you actually believe you know anything about the fire service. Especially as it relates to suppression.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-24-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They may represent the majority of the FD's in the country. However, the majority of Americans are protected by professionals.

    The majority of responses are handled by professionals.

    That is what matters.

    Believing that a bunch of pathetic hayseeds like yourself should drive the mindset for the rest of the real firefighters in America is more of your self delusion that you actually believe you know anything about the fire service. Especially as it relates to suppression.
    According to the USFA 63% of the population is protected by all career or primarily career departments, so you are correct.

    However, not all of them are professional.

    And some of the volunteer and primarily volunteer combo departments that protect the other 37% are.

    So what's your point?
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    I believe LA is right on track. From what he describes, his department (vollie) in no way should be attempting agressive interior ops. The reasons why things are the way they are there is not a factor on the fireground. If the IC believes he can't accomplish the task with any degree of safety for his people, then he should act accordingly. This means exterior ops only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But he is still a role model. The fact is that much of what you have learned about the fire service and it's traditions, and the dedication he displayed, rubbed off on you.

    That type of thing is simply not seen very much in this area as there is little in the way of family traditions.

    And being from an area with those sort of traditions, I know that there have been others at the firehouse that have affected your attitudes

    Sounds like you have a bigger problem then. Perhaps some of your more seasoned members need to start being better role models.....It doesn't have to be family that is the role model. One of my best friends joined the fire department, and there was no family other than him on anywhere at that time. He went on to get his Associates Degree in Fire Science, and has been aggressively training ever since, and just got on a busy POC department south of me.


    And if it was my choice, I wouldn't. But I don't make the decisions about who stays and who goes, and who gets the pass if they don't make the requirements.

    Then you're not trying hard enough, or you're going about it the wrong way, to institute change and a change in thinking on your department. Regardless of what you may think, change CAN come from the bottom if the driving force is there and the right tactics are used.

    I have pushed for higher standards at my combo department. The three Chief officers and most of the captains oppose it.

    See above.

    I constantly push at my VFD for some of the chronic training offenders to go, however, they have folks supporting them. it is my choice? No. A couple of those folks have experience and skills, but don't show up for training, and honestly, don't show up for many calls, but when they do, they do contribute.

    See above.

    The other problem is simply numbers. like it or not you can't run a VFD on 8 guys, which if we enforced the type of training standards you support, that is what most departments in this area would have. And some of those departments cover 200 or 300 square miles.

    Disagree. While it wasn't ideal, Dept. #1 ran the department with 6-8 guys for years, making aggressive attacks, stoping fires, and saving people/houses/possessions. Just because YOU can't run a VFD with 8 guys doesn't mean it isn't possible.

    That's the way that it is. And likely that is the way that it will stay. Increased training requirements will not make the situation better. It will only make it worse. So even though I may not like that reality, that is firefighting in the rural world, and I will support those departments because in many cases it's the best they can do. And yes, and in some cases, weather I like it or not it is the best they CHOOSE to do but no matter how I feel about it, it's not going to make it change.

    Disagree. Increased training requirements has had no effect in membership on either of my departments. It's not the training requirements that determine whether people will stay or go, it's the caliber of the person you assign those training requirements. If someone can't give an extra hour per training night, or an extra day per week to attend the class, are they really the caliber of people you want on your department anyway?

    It takes more than one to change the culture. The fact is at my VFD there are 3 or 4 that are following me - Going to more outside training, taking certification tests and the like. But there are several others that are being told by others on the department that it is ok to slack and just be average.

    If there is you and 3-4 OTHER guys, that's more than enough to change the culture. Command staff wont use training nights to work harder? Set up something on your own. Take yourself and the 3-4 guys, go down to the FD, and train on something. When people start catching on to what you're doing, more likely than not, they'll join you. Instead of making the excuse that 4 people can't change the culture, take those 4 people and do it on your own, soon enough people will follow and wonder why in the hell you're not training more on your regular nights. And those that don't, well, do you really want them anyway?

    The fact is again, in many places good is good enough.

    I would be finding somewhere else then. If the efforts of Fyred, myself, and a slim few others hadn't worked at Dept. 1, I would no longer be a member. But because change can come from the bottom, we've made, and are working on making, gigantic strides in the way we do some things.

    I feel the same way. I believe that training should be 3 hours. Most here disagree and when you drag them beyond 2 they complain. That's why the boys .. well many of the boys .. hate it when I train because the know that it's not going to be get 'er done in an hour and go home.

    Then freakin' run it for 3. Hell there's training and meeting nights I'm at the FD for 4 hours. EMS training is never shorter than 3 hours. Run it for as long as you feel is necessary until the membership has shown compatence in what you're training on. Those that don't like it won't show up anymore. And if they won't train, are they REALLY an asset on the fireground anyway?

    Believe it or not I am very old school about training. Sweat. Be tired. Be dirty. And do the evolutions more than once. But that simply is not the way that the departments down here are used to training, and though I have seen my VFD Chief give somewhat, he still tells me that often I push them too hard.

    Then perhaps it's time to elect/appoint/knight/whatever a new chief, because he sounds like he's hindering the department just as bad as you are.

    Do I have any control over what other departments do? No. And I know that they will not train as hard as I would like but that's not my call. So like it or not, I know what we'll be getting mutual aid and what we'll be getting into when we run mutual aid. So yes, I settle... because that's the way that it is.

    That's the most bullschitt cop-out I've ever heard. "I settle because that's the way it is." Fu*king work to CHANGE IT THEN. Take the ones who aren't content training for 2 hours a night once a month and do some extra training on your own damn time. Do you think if the colonists would have just handed over there muskets in 1775 and said "Well, the British want our guns, that's just the way it is" we'd be the country we are today? God forbid some extra work be done to execute change.

    And that is why I have the expectations I have, and why I accept the fact that we will lose structures that either my combo department or my VFD up north could have saved. It's my job to keep them alive, working within the skills et that they possess.

    Another bullschitt, cop-out, excuse. Don't work on keeping them alive with the skill set they possess, work on BETTERING their skill set so that they can effectively do their job, AND stay alive, uninjured, and go home to their family. An 16 poorly trained firefighters are more of a danger than 4 well trained firefighters.

    The fact is in most places being a firefighter is a part of your life, and being good is often good enough.

    Being good enough in the fire service is NEVER good enough. Being good enough get's you killed. Once you think you can stop training or you don't have to train, get the hell out before you get someone killed.

    I can do what I can do. My training officer is dedicated to training, but I have told him point balk that he simply is not demanding enough. he wants to be their friend and at the same time tell them what they need to do though they may not want to. he is too willing to accept excuses, and he is the final word on training, not me.

    Then maybe it's time for a new training officer who doesn't care if he angers the members, because he knows he's teaching them skills that might one day save their life.

    I post classes. I push taking classes. I push them every night physically. I wish that we were tougher, though we are tougher than most VFDs in the area, I wish we went farther.

    Push harder, be tougher, go farther. Just because you're "only a Lieutenant" doesn't mean that there isn't a core group of people who also want to train more, be better, and go further.

    We are doing promotions soon and we will be using specific certs as a minimum criteria for Captain and LT. That should be interesting.

    So. certs aren't helpful in your area, but you're requiring certs for promotion?

    That is the reality bro. As I have stated in another post, we have not burned abuilding down in 2 years, except for one which was on the ground on arrival and another that was almost there.

    Not the reality. It's the reality you accept personally, and as a department.

    Fact is we are not a bad department, but we could be a whole lot better, within the realistic limits of our response area and experience. Funny as that sounds it would actually mean letting some members go, which would actually hurt our rating on paper.

    Then don't throw quarters in the wishing well and hope to be a whole lot better. PUSH them. If the members that don't want to meet the limits would be pushed off, then LET THEM GO. Have you ever thought that perhaps there are people in your community who would join if they didn't think your fire department was a joke?

    We do, but staffing is as staffing is. And no, I'm not going take the chances and risks some of you advocate to save property if I feel that it puts them at significant risk. the property simply isn't that important to me. They are.

    If you're members are struggling with basic hose handling skills after 2-4 years on the department, there are deeper issues stemming from within that need to be changed.

    Training is fine, but there are situations that training can't overcome. You need numbers, and that is something that we will likely not have very often.

    Any training is better than no training and standing in the yard....

    Take last night .. Smoke in a structure. I rolled with 2 engines and 3 members total including myself as the only officer.
    Why 2 Engines? Three guys and you took 2 trucks?
    My normal AMA was on a call. The department I called instead gave me a tanker (I asked for an engine and tanker) and 3 more members, including one Chief.
    Sometimes that's the cards you're dealt, and you have to make do. That doesn't mean standing in the yard.
    Only 1 was interior excluding the Chief Officer.
    There's the problem with exterior only members....
    Had it been anything (was electrical wiring which went out when we killed the power), the building would have burned. The manpower, more often than not, just isn't there.
    For "smoke in the building" there was more than enough manpower on scene to investigate, and extinguish, and fire that you came across.

    Yes, it is a start.

    Keep going, push harder, stopp settiling because "that's just the way it is."

    We are talking about real world fire events. There is nothing that we can do to create real world fire calls.

    Well there is , but that's called arson, and not a good thing for firefighters to engage in.

    No one is advocating arson, but there are definitely non-traiditional trainings, coupled with classroom training on what to look for, that can get you as close as possible without an actual fire.

    Going to let the blow-up doll comment pass.
    Where's the fun in that?

    Sure, but we are pretty good at doing that already.

    We do when we get them, but as I said, it's very rare.

    And it's getting better. Up until about 2 1/2 years ago training was a major issue. the fact is for some, it is a question about dedication and motivation. For a couple that keep getting passes for work, it's a problem with consistent attendance. And it's still an issue, though lesser than a couple of years ago, about demanding that the members take responsibility for training by the command staff.

    I feel like a broken record.... With persistance, change can come from the bottom.



    That is the question, and I don't see eye to eye with some members of the command staff at either my combo or VFD when that's the issue. But until their feelings change on that, I work with the hand that I am dealt.

    Working with the hand you're dealt is a cop out. If that's your attitude, you're definitely not working as hard as you try to make it sound to change things.

    Bro, I think you would be shocked if you came down here and watched some of the operations in this area.

    Thank god I don't live down there.

    Its discouraging at times. And scary. But most departments know their limits and don't try anything beyond exterior. That is the reality.

    Then they aren't trying hard enough to promote change either. The fire departments job isn't to show up, say sorry we only have the 3rd stringers today, and watch the house burn down. If that was the case, the DPW workers could do that.

    Preaching to the choir.

    I have my doubts, unless you're talking about the OTHER members of this forum.

    And that needs to come from the top. Bottom line that in most places, it won't.

    No it doesn't. Change can be initiated from the bottom, you just have to want it bad enough

    You can only push so hard, and I've been told that I shouldn't push any harder as it may cause them to quit.

    If pushing them to conduct basic operations is going to cause them to quit, then they weren't really worth a **** in the first place, were they.

    Again, I work with the hand that I have been dealt and like it or not, support the top with the troops
    And yes, I have some significant disagreements with the top in private.

    For someone who JUST said they are a hard charging traditionalist when it comes to training, how can you support a command staff that disagrees with pushing it's members to traing? It's one thing to show the respect necessary for the position, it's another to idly sit on your hands and say OH WELL because the command staff doesn't want to push the members any harder beacuse they don't want to lose them or hurt their delicate little feelings.
    To sum it all up, whether you think so or not, change CAN come from the bottom.
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Believing that a bunch of pathetic hayseeds like yourself should drive the mindset for the rest of the real firefighters in America is more of your self delusion that you actually believe you know anything about the fire service. Especially as it relates to suppression

    The problem is that I, nor any other rural firefighter is driving anything. The problem is that some of the posters here simply don't understand the reality of the rural fire service and are trying to drive there " a fire department must be able to ......" agenda where the resources and manpower don't exist to support it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    According to the USFA 63% of the population is protected by all career or primarily career departments, so you are correct.

    However, not all of them are professional.

    And some of the volunteer and primarily volunteer combo departments that protect the other 37% are.

    So what's your point?
    You really can't be THAT dense....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    You really can't be THAT dense....
    We now know that basic math escapes him.

    So, YES, he is.
    Chenzo likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    According to the USFA 63% of the population is protected by all career or primarily career departments, so you are correct.

    However, not all of them are professional.

    And some of the volunteer and primarily volunteer combo departments that protect the other 37% are.

    So what's your point?
    The real point is that rural VFD's like yours are a joke.

    Wrapping oneself in the flag of Americana as it relates to VFD's like yours is a facade for the ignorant who think they have protection when all they really have is an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    Weruj1 and Chenzo like this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The real point is that rural VFD's like yours are a joke.

    Wrapping oneself in the flag of Americana as it relates to VFD's like yours is a facade for the ignorant who think they have protection when all they really have is an umbrella that melts in the rain.
    In some cases, that's very true.

    And as I have admitted, there are times that our staffing is quite minimal.

    So what is your solution, beyond bashing volunteers?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Believing that a bunch of pathetic hayseeds like yourself should drive the mindset for the rest of the real firefighters in America is more of your self delusion that you actually believe you know anything about the fire service. Especially as it relates to suppression
    These are YOUR WORDS.. Bobby.

    Look in the mirror when you do, because it fits you better than a Speedo on a fat man.
    Jasper 45 likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    SC

    According to the USFA, most firefighters are volunteer .... 756,000 as compared to 344,00 career.

    Most fire departments are all volunteer or primarily volunteer .... 87% compared to 13% all career or primarily career.

    So I guess that makes most firefighters and most fire departments non-professional?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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