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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    These are YOUR WORDS.. Bobby.

    Look in the mirror when you do, because it fits you better than a Speedo on a fat man.
    Hey, we have the staffing to do what we can do.

    If you want to call us hayseeds, have at it.
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    You called Chenzo a hayseed. I would take a sack of "hayseeds" like Chenzo who have the the heart, the souls and the balls to do the job as opposed you who's only schtick is to make excuse after excuse after excuse for not doing it, yet openly criticize the operations of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    You called Chenzo a hayseed. I would take a sack of "hayseeds" like Chenzo who have the the heart, the souls and the balls to do the job as opposed you who's only schtick is to make excuse after excuse after excuse for not doing it, yet openly criticize the operations of others.
    Where did I call Chenzo a hayseed?

    This was my post:

    Hey, we have the staffing to do what we can do.

    If you want to call us hayseeds, have at it.


    I was clearly referring to myself and my VFD.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-24-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In some cases, that's very true.
    Such as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as I have admitted, there are times that our staffing is quite minimal.

    So what is your solution, beyond bashing volunteers?
    Establishing the same standards for vollies that exist for professionals. If no one in that community is capable of performing the duties the townfolk at least know they are not protected and can address solutions accordingly.

    Which isn't the case now.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    So I guess that makes most firefighters and most fire departments non-professional?
    Yup. I'm sure there are VFD companies that are committed to functioning at the same standards as career personnel, but I'm also sure they are the exception while your VFD is more the more typical.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-25-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Where did I call Chenzo a hayseed?

    This was my post:

    Hey, we have the staffing to do what we can do.

    If you want to call us hayseeds, have at it.


    I was clearly referring to myself and my VFD.
    You didn't. I was wrong. I went back re-read the posts. SC stated that.

    However... if you would preface any post where you are quoting someone else with "posted by____" and learn to use the quote feature, there would be no confusion.
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    A couple of points........

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    SC

    According to the USFA, most firefighters are volunteer .... 756,000 as compared to 344,00 career.
    Those statistic are in all likelihood, substantially flawed. I know there is a tendency equate the number of firefighters a VFD has to the number of members it has. As such, there is a tendency to overstate the number of personnel that are actually responding to calls.

    Most fire departments are all volunteer or primarily volunteer .... 87% compared to 13% all career or primarily career.

    So I guess that makes most firefighters and most fire departments non-professional?
    Yes, in the same way that most athletes are non-professional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hey, we have the staffing to do what we can do.

    If you want to call us hayseeds, have at it.
    No, I think coward is more fit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    No, I think coward is more fit.
    More so is enabler...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Believing that a bunch of pathetic hayseeds like yourself should drive the mindset for the rest of the real firefighters in America is more of your self delusion that you actually believe you know anything about the fire service. Especially as it relates to suppression

    The problem is that I, nor any other rural firefighter is driving anything. The problem is that some of the posters here simply don't understand the reality of the rural fire service and are trying to drive there " a fire department must be able to ......" agenda where the resources and manpower don't exist to support it.
    Actually, there are a couple of problems, but not necessarily the ones you think.

    1) We know that the rural fire service is not the industry driver, however you don't seem to understand that you have a propensity for telling the rest of us that we should be operating more like you.

    2) Many of us do understand the reality of the rural fire service. We understand there are real limitations on what they can reasonably provide. We understand that they are in many cases, doing the best they can and possibly "better than nothing".

    There's nothing wrong with pushing a person or organization to "improve". The problem is your inability or unwillingness to comprehend our actual message. A Fire Department should be able to perform, at minimum, the core function of victim search and interior fire attack in support of that search effort. Our contention is that if the reality of a particular organization is that they are consistently unable to do this, then they are not an actual "Fire Department", but rather something more akin to a modern day bucket brigade since they lack that ability to perform one of the most important and core functions expected of a Fire Department.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 05-25-2013 at 09:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Actually, there are a couple of problems, but not necessarily the ones you think.

    1) We know that the rural fire service is not the industry driver, however you don't seem to understand that you have propensity for telling the rest of us that we should be operating more like you.

    2) Many of us do understand the reality of the rural fire service. We understand their are real limitations on what they can reasonably provide. We understand that they are in many cases, doing the best they can and possibly "better than nothing".

    There's nothing wrong with pushing a person or organization to "improve". The problem is your inability or unwillingness to comprehend our actual message. A Fire Department should be able to perform, at minimum, the core function of victim search and interior fire attack in support of that search effort. Our contention is that if the reality of a particular organization is that they are consistently unable to do this, then they are not an actual "Fire Department", but rather something more akin to a modern day bucket brigade since they lack that ability to perform one of the most important and core functions expected of a Fire Department.
    agreed ---------
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Actually, there are a couple of problems, but not necessarily the ones you think.

    1) We know that the rural fire service is not the industry driver, however you don't seem to understand that you have a propensity for telling the rest of us that we should be operating more like you.

    No, what I am saying is that "operating like you" should not be an expectation.


    2) Many of us do understand the reality of the rural fire service. We understand there are real limitations on what they can reasonably provide. We understand that they are in many cases, doing the best they can and possibly "better than nothing".

    There's nothing wrong with pushing a person or organization to "improve". The problem is your inability or unwillingness to comprehend our actual message. A Fire Department should be able to perform, at minimum, the core function of victim search and interior fire attack in support of that search effort. Our contention is that if the reality of a particular organization is that they are consistently unable to do this, then they are not an actual "Fire Department", but rather something more akin to a modern day bucket brigade since they lack that ability to perform one of the most important and core functions expected of a Fire Department.
    And again, you view that as a core function. I see the "core function" as confining the fire to the building of origin.

    In a perfect world every department would have the manpower, training and experience to perform interior operations. Problem is that's a lot more complicated function than it sounds for an underfunded, understaffed, under-experienced, and in more cases than not through no fault of their own, under trained rural VFD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, you view that as a core function. I see the "core function" as confining the fire to the building of origin.

    And this is why everyone disagrees with you. Confining the fire to the building and letting it burn to the ground so long as it doesn't spread anywhere is not the core function of the fire department.

    In a perfect world every department would have the manpower, training and experience to perform interior operations. Problem is that's a lot more complicated function than it sounds for an underfunded, understaffed, under-experienced, and in more cases than not through no fault of their own, under trained rural VFD.

    And we don't live in a perfect world. That's why you improvise, adapt, and overcome. Train hard, fight hard. Don't lean on the crutch that you're a poor underfunded ill-trained poorly equipped department. Friggin' do something to change it!
    I've been on these forums for 5 years now. For FIVE YEARS I've watched you hide behind the same facade that your department is just too understaffed, ill-trained, and improperly equipped. But then you post on here and play the "whoa is me card." Claiming that you're trying to make changes but you're getting resistance from the members and from the chief officers, so there's "nothing you can do." And you wash your hands of it all and go back to pretending to be a fire department.

    You're a hack, LA. Face it, you're a hack. If the things that you claim you are trying to change were truly that important to you, you would either find a way to make change and not just kick dirt and pretend you tried, or you'd be off the department looking for another.
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1370241]And again, you view that as a core function. I see the "core function" as confining the fire to the building of origin.

    It is a core function. I would love to ask the citizens of your VFDs area what they expect the FD to do when they arrive at their house fire. Despite what you have said repeatedly, my bet is they will save put out the fire and some will say rescue my family members. You have said the citizens know that your FD is not willing to do that, my bet is that is nonsense. Until the day you stand up at a public meeting and say "We do not have the staffing, the training, the equipment, or the experience to do interior firefighting or to go inside and rescue people if your house is on fire" it is all heresay.

    You could confine the fire to the building of origin with one guy and dynamite...blow up the neighboring buildings to create a firebreak. Less staffing, less equipment costs. Seems ideal for you operations.

    Frankly, if confining to the building of origin is what you consider a core function then that explains so very much about why your VFD, 2 years later, doesn't seem to have progressed more than a baby crawl. What is the need? Your idea of a good job is not burning down the neighborhood.


    In a perfect world every department would have the manpower, training and experience to perform interior operations. Problem is that's a lot more complicated function than it sounds for an underfunded, understaffed, under-experienced, and in more cases than not through no fault of their own, under trained rural VFD.

    Golly LA, I am a member of what was in 1977 when I became a member an underfunded (our equipment budget was $500 and we weren't supposed to spend it!), understaffed (we had about 20 guys on the roster, most over 50 years old, and most inactive other than the meetings and card parties), under experienced (We didn't then, and even today, don't run a lot of actual fire calls in a year on my #1 POC FD), under trained (most guys didn't have a lick of training outside the inhouse stuff and believe me that wasn't much).

    We had a 1950 Ford 500 gpm pumper, a 1937 500 gpm pumper, and a 1949 Mack EFU converted fuel hauler as a tender, we had 2 SCBA, we had 6 trun out coats, 6 helmets, no boots, and work gloves. Did it discourage us? NO, we set about doing more training, fundraising to fill in the equipment gaps, went to our village board and explined our needs for PPE and more SCBA. The funding came slow but it increased. We now have state of the art PPE, SCBA we got with a grant a few years back, a 2005 engine we got with a grant, a tender we got new in 1992 (next to be replaced), a 1985 used engine we bought last year, and a 1984 5/4 Chevy brush truck. We have great equipment, I would say better than some of our neighbors, but it didn't come from sitting on our hands,telling ourselves we suck and always will. It took hard work, determination, eliminating deadwood members, and a vision of what we wanted to be, not what we would never be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    We have great equipment, I would say better than some of our neighbors, but it didn't come from sitting on our hands,telling ourselves we suck and always will. It took hard work, determination, eliminating deadwood members, and a vision of what we wanted to be, not what we would never be.
    This. Right here LA, this.

    To say it can't be done is an abysmal lack of trying on your departments part, on your chief officers parts, and on your part.

    This is why I keep repeatedly saying that regardless of what you think it can be done. But if you didn't have anything to whine about, or senseless drivel to blather all over the internet, what kind of life would you have?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Actually, there are a couple of problems, but not necessarily the ones you think.

    1) We know that the rural fire service is not the industry driver, however you don't seem to understand that you have a propensity for telling the rest of us that we should be operating more like you.

    No, what I am saying is that "operating like you" should not be an expectation.
    Setting aside the fact that the statement you were replying to was actually about YOU trying to tell the rest of that we should be the ones "operating like you", it really isn't a matter of expecting that they should "operate like us".

    The expectation is that they operate "like a Fire Department" if they are "advertising" that they are a Fire Department.



    2) Many of us do understand the reality of the rural fire service. We understand there are real limitations on what they can reasonably provide. We understand that they are in many cases, doing the best they can and possibly "better than nothing".

    There's nothing wrong with pushing a person or organization to "improve". The problem is your inability or unwillingness to comprehend our actual message. A Fire Department should be able to perform, at minimum, the core function of victim search and interior fire attack in support of that search effort. Our contention is that if the reality of a particular organization is that they are consistently unable to do this, then they are not an actual "Fire Department", but rather something more akin to a modern day bucket brigade since they lack that ability to perform one of the most important and core functions expected of a Fire Department.

    And again, you view that as a core function. I see the "core function" as confining the fire to the building of origin.
    I guess in a certain sense, you could make the argument that "confining the fire to the building of origin" is a core function.

    However, one of the other core functions for a Fire Department absolutely IS victim search & rescue supported by interior fire attack. I bet if you asked every civilian in your community, they'd all agree its a core function too.

    Thinking it's not is buffoonery at its finest.

    In a perfect world every department would have the manpower, training and experience to perform interior operations. Problem is that's a lot more complicated function than it sounds for an underfunded, understaffed, under-experienced, and in more cases than not through no fault of their own, under trained rural VFD.
    And that has been acknowledged more than once.
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    LA,

    The other side of my #1 POC FDs story is the training aspect. From having no minimum standard at all to now requiring FF1 and Driver Operator and encouraging members to go to outside training. We have roughly half of our FD as FF1, a third as FF2, a third as Driver Operator, and all the rest as Entry Level FF working towards FF1. We haven't lost a single member due to training requirements. NOT ONE. We have gained members because of our training requirements. How can that be? By your comments we should have lost members by the score, just the opposite happened.

    Most people prefer to belong to organizations that move forward, not those that stagnate and accept low standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    LA,

    The other side of my #1 POC FDs story is the training aspect. From having no minimum standard at all to now requiring FF1 and Driver Operator and encouraging members to go to outside training. We have roughly half of our FD as FF1, a third as FF2, a third as Driver Operator, and all the rest as Entry Level FF working towards FF1. We haven't lost a single member due to training requirements. NOT ONE. We have gained members because of our training requirements. How can that be? By your comments we should have lost members by the score, just the opposite happened.

    Most people prefer to belong to organizations that move forward, not those that stagnate and accept low standards.
    That has not been the experience of neither my VFD or any other department in my volunteer parish that have increased training requirements.

    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.

    Who would ever have thought removing the bottom of the barrel was a bad thing? Simply stunning that our society now has to cater to the do-nothings, hand it to me I don't want to work for it, breathing is too much work for me types amongst us for standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That has not been the experience of neither my VFD or any other department in my volunteer parish that have increased training requirements.

    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.
    You should be saying, "good riddance." If the point in time comes where the minimal standards you claim to embrace don't support your pathetic VFD, the citizens will at least know they have nothing and might do something about it. That isn't the case now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That has not been the experience of neither my VFD or any other department in my volunteer parish that have increased training requirements.

    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.
    With this opinion and desire to keep your department at the level of the least common denominator will continue to paint you and your department as nothing more than posers and a fraud. The fact you will come on a public forum, in a position of leadership in your departments and argue, condone, and make excuses for this behavior is sickening.
    The core of a fire department is to save the lives and property of the citizens it serves. Been that way since day one. For you and your merry band of hicks to preach otherwise, not with any statistical evidence, or data other than you enjoy mediocrity, is truly sad.
    It really must have been tough to never get off the bench in your entire life....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That has not been the experience of neither my VFD or any other department in my volunteer parish that have increased training requirements.

    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.
    The truth is those people are the "dead wood members," I said in an earlier post, we got rid of. They take up room on the roster, love being called a "Fireman," but refuse to learn enough to be anything more than a peripheral, get in the way of progress, member. As my esteemed colleague said, you should be saying "good riddance" to those that stand in the way of progress. Honestly, you are better off without them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That has not been the experience of neither my VFD or any other department in my volunteer parish that have increased training requirements.

    Just becaue that hasn't been YOUR experience with your "fire department" and the other little hovels in your neck of the woods, doesn't mean that it's not commonplace elsewhere. As was stated by Fyred, we didn't lose a SINGLE member when we increases our training requirements. Furthermore, at both departments, it was just implemented and reinforced by the officers that no one with facial hair will be allowed to put on an SCBA. Period. Drills, Calls, NOTHING. You know how many members that lost? NONE. From either department. Do you know how many went home and shaved their goatee's off? All but one, including the Fire Chief of Department 2 who has had a goatee for 20+ years. Your experience, with anything apparently, is far from the norm.

    Every time that we have increased our training requirements over the past 18 months, we have lost a member here and a member there. It has also been the same with a couple of other departments in the parish that have increased training requirements.
    What does that tell you about them? Well you personally, probably nothing. Me? That they weren't worth a schitt to begin with.
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    I'll pass on to my leadership of my VFD that 6 firefighters on the Firehouse Forum, out of 1.1 million in this country ,believe that we should hack off 40% of our fire department and run with 8-10 members because they think that those 40% train enough and are deadwood and ain't worth a schitzzzz.

    And I'll pass it on the most of the other rural VFDs in northern and central LA as well.

    I'll see what they think about the idea and get back to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll pass on to my leadership of my VFD that 6 firefighters on the Firehouse Forum, out of 1.1 million in this country ,believe that we should hack off 40% of our fire department and run with 8-10 members because they think that those 40% train enough and are deadwood and ain't worth a schitzzzz.

    And I'll pass it on the most of the other rural VFDs in northern and central LA as well.

    I'll see what they think about the idea and get back to you.
    No, in fact you won't. You will maintain those turds because they are your excuse for not going interior, for saying that the core responsibility of your VFD is to only burn down the original home and not the entire town.

    No, LA, you will do nothing because it is easier. Which is your main motivator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll pass on to my leadership of my VFD that 6 firefighters on the Firehouse Forum, out of 1.1 million in this country ,believe that we should hack off 40% of our fire department and run with 8-10 members because they think that those 40% train enough and are deadwood and ain't worth a schitzzzz.

    And I'll pass it on the most of the other rural VFDs in northern and central LA as well.

    I'll see what they think about the idea and get back to you.

    8-10 members who know what they're doing beats the hell out of 50 guys who don't know how to wipe after taking a dump.
    FWDbuff and conrad427 like this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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