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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #626
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    We had that discussion at our dept. We recently changed the rules to state that you have to make 10 percent of the calls. Some hollered they would quit. We were worried until someone chimed in "what the hell good are you to us then?" We quit worrying after that. Usually people don't want to be part of a great dept. because of low training standards and low run numbers, weather the dept. is a rural VFD or a huge urban career dept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No, in fact you won't. You will maintain those turds because they are your excuse for not going interior, for saying that the core responsibility of your VFD is to only burn down the original home and not the entire town.

    No, LA, you will do nothing because it is easier. Which is your main motivator.
    Actually only 1 of that 40% are interior firefighters, so their existence has nothing to do with my reluctance to operate interior in many situations.

    The remainder are exterior members and a driver-only.

    That one interior member is only an issue because he does not attend our training, but does attend most of the trainings at the neighboring city combo department, where he is a volunteer. He is also a member of another neighboring VFD where he makes training periodically. He is competent and experienced, and remains well trained through his other departments, but his not making our training is an issue with me as he hurts us on the rating as we only get 1/2 credit for his outside training and he is not up to date on some of our more recent protocol and operational changes.

    While none of the 40% are critical, as most of them only make a call now and then, when they do, it helps, especially since they primarily drive.

    In a perfect world, would I like to have enough staffing to let them go since they don't make training very often? Yup. But with our staffing, this isn't, and likely never will be that perfect world.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-28-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll pass on to my leadership of my VFD that 6 firefighters on the Firehouse Forum, out of 1.1 million in this country ,believe that we should hack off 40% of our fire department and run with 8-10 members because they think that those 40% train enough and are deadwood and ain't worth a schitzzzz.

    And I'll pass it on the most of the other rural VFDs in northern and central LA as well.

    I'll see what they think about the idea and get back to you.
    While you should do that, we all know you won't. You'd rather keep the firefighters on your membership roll that will ensure it maintaining its pathetic status.

    The departments you believe will support you should not. If they do, that is another indicator how pathetic VFDs are in your locale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, you view that as a core function. I see the "core function" as confining the fire to the building of origin.
    Have you ever thought about setting your goals just a tad bit higher?
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  5. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Have you ever thought about setting your goals just a tad bit higher?
    If you routinely can roll in to a "room and contents" that is still confined to the room of origin and it's contents, yeah - one should set one's goals higher.

    But when your initial size-up is usually "fully involved," as it often is out here in the sticks, keeping it to the building of origin becomes the only practical goal. Between balloon construction in the old farmhouses and the toothpick and cardboard components being used for new construction, you're usually behind the eight ball even before you're dispatched.
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  6. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually only 1 of that 40% are interior firefighters, so their existence has nothing to do with my reluctance to operate interior in many situations.

    The remainder are exterior members and a driver-only.

    Sure it does. Because if they were interior firefighters they would be worth keeping. As it is they are half firefighters helping you maintain the sad level of service you have now.

    That one interior member is only an issue because he does not attend our training, but does attend most of the trainings at the neighboring city combo department, where he is a volunteer. He is also a member of another neighboring VFD where he makes training periodically. He is competent and experienced, and remains well trained through his other departments, but his not making our training is an issue with me as he hurts us on the rating as we only get 1/2 credit for his outside training and he is not up to date on some of our more recent protocol and operational changes.

    If you have rules then enforce them. If you aren't going to enforce them then why have them? They are nothing but a farce.

    While none of the 40% are critical, as most of them only make a call now and then, when they do, it helps, especially since they primarily drive.

    If they only make a call now and then they are worse than useless. They are keeping up with any operational changes or changes in equipment. At some point they will be more of a hindrance than a help.

    In a perfect world, would I like to have enough staffing to let them go since they don't make training very often? Yup. But with our staffing, this isn't, and likely never will be that perfect world.

    So you accept, and infact encourage, an atmosphere of complacency, poor attendance, and lack of training. Yep, it is even more clear here why your VFD is and will always be a joke. The leadership, you included, accepts all of the things that impede change.
    Yes indeed Bobby, you, and your VFD leadership, are the perfect example of the "part of the problem" type of leadership that looks at the number of bodies on a roster and not the QUALITY of personnel on the roster.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-28-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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  7. #632
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    Default """Free Burn""

    """Free Burn"""


    May 28--No injuries were reported following an extra-alarm fire that broke out in the potato chip aisle of a grocery store in west suburban Stone Park late this morning, authorities said.

    The five-alarm blaze started about noon in the 1600 block of North Mannheim Road, according to a spokeswoman for Stone Park police.

    As of about 1 p.m., the blaze was mostly out, but smoke and some flames were still visible from the 2-story brick building, which houses the Durango Supermercado on the first level and about four apartments on the upper level.

    No injuries have been reported and the blaze burned through its roof, causing a partial collapse of the building.

    Thick, black smoke roiled from the building at one point and about 15-20 fire departments remained on the scene.

    Firefighters were pouring water on its roof and through one apartment window using two tower ladders. Several onlookers were standing outside gawking and it appeared that all occupants of the building had escaped.

    Manager Jose Rivera was in his office doing paperwork when he heard the smoke alarm go off but he said it's "very sensitive" so he thought it could just have been cooking smoke that activated it.

    When he went to check it out, he found the potato chip aisle was on fire, and the chips were burning.

    Rivera sprang into action, grabbed the fire extinguisher and tried to put it out.

    "I ran for the extinguisher and managed to control it,'' Rivera said.

    He then raced through the rest of the store, telling the eight customers to "drop their possessions and leave,'' Rivera said.

    Rivera went back inside but the fire had worsened and there was nothing left in the extinguisher. Rivera said he knew he had to leave at that point.Fire officials on the scene said they were letting the fire burn, in a "free burn'' and would not be able to go inside until it was safe.

    Rivera's mother, Imelda Rivera, who is the owner of the store, was outside and appeared very shaken up.

    Occupants of the second-story apartments on the building's south side escaped without being hurt.

    Rivera does not know what started the blaze.

    Fire department officials said they were performing a "free burn'' and will not go inside until it's safe.

  8. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    """Free Burn"""


    May 28--No injuries were reported following an extra-alarm fire that broke out in the potato chip aisle of a grocery store in west suburban Stone Park late this morning, authorities said.

    The five-alarm blaze started about noon in the 1600 block of North Mannheim Road, according to a spokeswoman for Stone Park police.

    As of about 1 p.m., the blaze was mostly out, but smoke and some flames were still visible from the 2-story brick building, which houses the Durango Supermercado on the first level and about four apartments on the upper level.

    No injuries have been reported and the blaze burned through its roof, causing a partial collapse of the building.

    Thick, black smoke roiled from the building at one point and about 15-20 fire departments remained on the scene.

    Firefighters were pouring water on its roof and through one apartment window using two tower ladders. Several onlookers were standing outside gawking and it appeared that all occupants of the building had escaped.

    Manager Jose Rivera was in his office doing paperwork when he heard the smoke alarm go off but he said it's "very sensitive" so he thought it could just have been cooking smoke that activated it.

    When he went to check it out, he found the potato chip aisle was on fire, and the chips were burning.

    Rivera sprang into action, grabbed the fire extinguisher and tried to put it out.

    "I ran for the extinguisher and managed to control it,'' Rivera said.

    He then raced through the rest of the store, telling the eight customers to "drop their possessions and leave,'' Rivera said.

    Rivera went back inside but the fire had worsened and there was nothing left in the extinguisher. Rivera said he knew he had to leave at that point.Fire officials on the scene said they were letting the fire burn, in a "free burn'' and would not be able to go inside until it was safe.

    Rivera's mother, Imelda Rivera, who is the owner of the store, was outside and appeared very shaken up.

    Occupants of the second-story apartments on the building's south side escaped without being hurt.

    Rivera does not know what started the blaze.

    Fire department officials said they were performing a "free burn'' and will not go inside until it's safe.
    How dare they allow it to burn!

    Blasphemy I tell you.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yes indeed Bobby, you, and your VFD leadership, are the perfect example of the "part of the problem" type of leadership that looks at the number of bodies on a roster and not the QUALITY of personnel on the roster.
    '

    Actually we have turned down 3 or 4 potential members in the last 2 years due to "quality".

    We just terminated one member during their probation because of "quality" issues.

    I guess you are incorrect again sir.
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  10. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    '

    Actually we have turned down 3 or 4 potential members in the last 2 years due to "quality".

    We just terminated one member during their probation because of "quality" issues.

    I guess you are incorrect again sir.
    How could they possibly be more pathetic than you?
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  11. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    If you routinely can roll in to a "room and contents" that is still confined to the room of origin and it's contents, yeah - one should set one's goals higher.

    But when your initial size-up is usually "fully involved," as it often is out here in the sticks, keeping it to the building of origin becomes the only practical goal. Between balloon construction in the old farmhouses and the toothpick and cardboard components being used for new construction, you're usually behind the eight ball even before you're dispatched.
    I hear you Tree. We don't have much modern construction in our area but we are quite rural, Response area of 2040 square miles. A good deal of the calls are fully involved. But are you saying that I am wasting my time by trying to get the boys interior certified because MOST of what we run is fully involved? Even if 99% of what MY department runs was fully involved I would still want to be able to go interior and make a good stop and maybe pull someone out if needed on the 1%. Just my 2 cents.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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  12. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    """Free Burn"""


    May 28--No injuries were reported following an extra-alarm fire that broke out in the potato chip aisle of a grocery store in west suburban Stone Park late this morning, authorities said.

    The five-alarm blaze started about noon in the 1600 block of North Mannheim Road, according to a spokeswoman for Stone Park police.

    As of about 1 p.m., the blaze was mostly out, but smoke and some flames were still visible from the 2-story brick building, which houses the Durango Supermercado on the first level and about four apartments on the upper level.

    No injuries have been reported and the blaze burned through its roof, causing a partial collapse of the building.

    Thick, black smoke roiled from the building at one point and about 15-20 fire departments remained on the scene.

    Firefighters were pouring water on its roof and through one apartment window using two tower ladders. Several onlookers were standing outside gawking and it appeared that all occupants of the building had escaped.

    Manager Jose Rivera was in his office doing paperwork when he heard the smoke alarm go off but he said it's "very sensitive" so he thought it could just have been cooking smoke that activated it.

    When he went to check it out, he found the potato chip aisle was on fire, and the chips were burning.

    Rivera sprang into action, grabbed the fire extinguisher and tried to put it out.

    "I ran for the extinguisher and managed to control it,'' Rivera said.

    He then raced through the rest of the store, telling the eight customers to "drop their possessions and leave,'' Rivera said.

    Rivera went back inside but the fire had worsened and there was nothing left in the extinguisher. Rivera said he knew he had to leave at that point.Fire officials on the scene said they were letting the fire burn, in a "free burn'' and would not be able to go inside until it was safe.

    Rivera's mother, Imelda Rivera, who is the owner of the store, was outside and appeared very shaken up.

    Occupants of the second-story apartments on the building's south side escaped without being hurt.

    Rivera does not know what started the blaze.

    Fire department officials said they were performing a "free burn'' and will not go inside until it's safe.
    Let me see if I have this right. A civilian with an extinguisher almost had the fire controlled when the extinguisher ran out. So then the fire department shows up, with full PPE, SCBA, and fire hoses, and won't enter the building? Um, why did they even bother to show up? They burned the building down and destroyed the contents. I assume the same would have occurred without their assistance.

    I have NEVER in 37 years as a firefighter ever heard of "performing a free burn" other than in the case of hazardous materials where extinguishing the fire created more of a hazard than letting it burn.
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  13. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How dare they allow it to burn!

    Blasphemy I tell you.
    More idiotic remarks from you Bobby. Tell me how a fire that was ALMOST extinguished with a fire extinguisher before it went empty becomes a burn it down fire once the fire department arrives?
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  14. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    '

    Actually we have turned down 3 or 4 potential members in the last 2 years due to "quality".

    Why? Were they certified already and it would have messed up your excuses for your VFD never improving?

    We just terminated one member during their probation because of "quality" issues.

    Yet you keep deadwood that won't come to training. WHY? You can't have rules or standards if you don't enforce them.

    I guess you are incorrect again sir.

    Nope, you retain members who refuse to follow the rules and train according to your rules. So your standards are meaningless and unenforceable. If you dismissed me for lack of quality I would probably turn around and file a discrimination complaint against your FD and you would lose because of past practices of not equally enforcing your own rules. One of these days someone is going to sue the living schitt out of either one of your FDs and you guys are going to be left hanging like laundry on the line.
    Just more of your consistent nonsensical blathering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I hear you Tree. We don't have much modern construction in our area but we are quite rural, Response area of 2040 square miles. A good deal of the calls are fully involved. But are you saying that I am wasting my time by trying to get the boys interior certified because MOST of what we run is fully involved? Even if 99% of what MY department runs was fully involved I would still want to be able to go interior and make a good stop and maybe pull someone out if needed on the 1%. Just my 2 cents.
    Are you a Fire Department?

    If yes, then it's never a "waste of time" to train your personnel to be able to go interior for fire attack and rescue, even if you can only do it 1% of the time. The ability to do so is what the public expects from a Fire Department.

    The only way it would be a "waste of time" is if the training itself was conducted in such a fashion where the members would not get any actual benefit from it.

  16. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I hear you Tree. We don't have much modern construction in our area but we are quite rural, Response area of 2040 square miles. A good deal of the calls are fully involved. But are you saying that I am wasting my time by trying to get the boys interior certified because MOST of what we run is fully involved? Even if 99% of what MY department runs was fully involved I would still want to be able to go interior and make a good stop and maybe pull someone out if needed on the 1%. Just my 2 cents.
    There is a difference between wanting and be able to sorry.

    Sorry, but to quote the insurance commercial, "not everything can be a nickel".

    Resources. Manpower. Access to live fire training facilities and instructors. They all may or may not be available for interior operations, and as much as a department may "want" them to exist, in many places they simply do not.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #642
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    Actually we have turned down 3 or 4 potential members in the last 2 years due to "quality".

    Why? Were they certified already and it would have messed up your excuses for your VFD never improving?

    No, but not every applicant with certifications will be a fit for every fire department.

    We just terminated one member during their probation because of "quality" issues.

    Yet you keep deadwood that won't come to training. WHY? You can't have rules or standards if you don't enforce them.

    Why?

    We had a structure fire this morning. 1 AM

    We had a total of 6 members respond. The Chief, myself, 1 interior member and 3 very experienced "deadwood" drivers/exterior members that have not made a lot of training, but guess what, they got the engines on the air, stretched additional lines and ran the pump while the Chief and 1 other member conducted an exterior attack waiting for the AMA that was about 4 minutes behind the first in engine.

    Guess they were pretty valuable on this occasion, eh?


    Nope, you retain members who refuse to follow the rules and train according to your rules your standards are meaningless and unenforceable. If you dismissed me for lack of quality I would probably turn around and file a discrimination complaint against your FD and you would lose because of past practices of not equally enforcing your own rules. One of these days someone is going to sue the living schitt out of either one of your FDs and you guys are going to be left hanging like laundry on the line.

    Disagree, but hey ... have fun with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have NEVER in 37 years as a firefighter ever heard of "performing a free burn" other than in the case of hazardous materials where extinguishing the fire created more of a hazard than letting it burn.
    I wouldn't label it a "free burn", but my department has on some occasions allowed an heavily involved abandoned building to "burn itself out" so to speak. Our city has a long history of burned out buildings not being torn down. If the fire reaches the point where the entire building is on fire and clearly beyond the point where we can not save it, has no exposures issues and will likely pose a hazard to the public after the fire, we have shifted to a more passive role and essentially allowed it to burn itself out.

    We don't just stand around watching it burn. We continue to flow water and look like we are fighting the fire, but do so in a fashion that further minimizes any risk to our personnel. Additionally, we've typically only done this at night when the public's not around to watch and truthfully it's a somewhat infrequent occurrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We had a structure fire this morning. 1 AM

    We had a total of 6 members respond. The Chief, myself, 1 interior member and 3 very experienced "deadwood" drivers/exterior members that have not made a lot of training, but guess what, they got the engines on the air, stretched additional lines and ran the pump while the Chief and 1 other member conducted an exterior attack waiting for the AMA that was about 4 minutes behind the first in engine.

    Guess they were pretty valuable on this occasion, eh?
    I guess that depends on what you define as "valuable"?

    My department can do what you just described with 3 firefighters. Just last night, our two-man engine had a kitchen fire knocked down before the units from our other station arrived.

    BTW, what were YOU doing while the Chief and interior guy were making that exterior attack and the other guys were running the pump and stretching additional lines? You seem to have forgotten to mention that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I guess that depends on what you define as "valuable"?

    My department can do what you just described with 3 firefighters. Just last night, our two-man engine had a kitchen fire knocked down before the units from our other station arrived.

    BTW, what were YOU doing while the Chief and interior guy were making that exterior attack and the other guys were running the pump and stretching additional lines? You seem to have forgotten to mention that.
    I was sent to a nearby station to respond with a tanker. Upon arrival, I was committed to fire attack and interior operations with the AMA engine crew.

    As I have stated previously, I live about 3 miles from the district line, so I have a slightly extended response time.

    As far as your operations that's great, but we had pump operator and a couple of experienced hands to perform some exterior tasks. I guess to me, that's a very good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was sent to a nearby station to respond with a tanker. Upon arrival, I was committed to fire attack and interior operations with the AMA engine crew.

    As I have stated previously, I live about 3 miles from the district line, so I have a slightly extended response time.

    As far as your operations that's great, but we had pump operator and a couple of experienced hands to perform some exterior tasks. I guess to me, that's a very good thing.
    Additional experienced personnel are almost always a welcome addition on the fireground, even if they are not "full-duty" personnel.

    My comment was based on what you wrote. You specifically stated that with 6 guys, 3 of which were exterior only, the fire trucks arrived, the pump was operated, 2 people performed exterior fire attack (not sure if that means 1 or 2 hoses in use) and additional lines were stretched. As I stated, my department can accomplish all of that (using 2 hoses) with 3 guys. So what did those 3 additional guys do that you didn't mention that made them "valuable" to the operation because, as written, it doesn't seem like they added any value (comparatively), unless you, your chief and that interior FF would not have been able to accomplish the tasks listed without those three additional guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Additional experienced personnel are almost always a welcome addition on the fireground, even if they are not "full-duty" personnel.

    My comment was based on what you wrote. You specifically stated that with 6 guys, 3 of which were exterior only, the fire trucks arrived, the pump was operated, 2 people performed exterior fire attack (not sure if that means 1 or 2 hoses in use) and additional lines were stretched. As I stated, my department can accomplish all of that (using 2 hoses) with 3 guys. So what did those 3 additional guys do that you didn't mention that made them "valuable" to the operation because, as written, it doesn't seem like they added any value (comparatively), unless you, your chief and that interior FF would not have been able to accomplish the tasks listed without those three additional guys?
    Was last night the best scenario? No, and I'm not going to say that it was.

    Basically the Chief had to decide if he was going to go interior as working command or remain exterior as fixed command. He choose to remain exterior.

    Had he had one other interior firefighter he may have sent a 2-firefighter crew interior before the arrival of AMA, but once he choose to remain exterior, that was no longer an option, and due to my travel distance, I was not going to arrive before the AMA engine.

    That being said, had he not had the exterior/drivers, he would have had only 1 engine initially and 1tanker on-scene after a few minutes, plus the AMA engine, vs. 3 of our engines initially and a myself with the 5000g tanker. He also would have had just himself and the single interior firefighter until the arrival of the AMA engine and myself.

    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms.

    Best case scenario? Again, no. But certainly far better than without the exterior/driver-only personnel.

    Unfortunately our Deputy Chief and captain were on-shift at the neighboring combo department and even though they came in AMA they were unavailable to us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is a difference between wanting and be able to sorry.

    Sorry, but to quote the insurance commercial, "not everything can be a nickel".

    Resources. Manpower. Access to live fire training facilities and instructors. They all may or may not be available for interior operations, and as much as a department may "want" them to exist, in many places they simply do not.
    And as long as you make excuses and maintain members that can't even comply with your woefully inadequate training they will NEVER exist where you are.
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  24. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I hear you Tree. We don't have much modern construction in our area but we are quite rural, Response area of 2040 square miles. A good deal of the calls are fully involved. But are you saying that I am wasting my time by trying to get the boys interior certified because MOST of what we run is fully involved? Even if 99% of what MY department runs was fully involved I would still want to be able to go interior and make a good stop and maybe pull someone out if needed on the 1%. Just my 2 cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Are you a Fire Department?

    If yes, then it's never a "waste of time" to train your personnel to be able to go interior for fire attack and rescue, even if you can only do it 1% of the time. The ability to do so is what the public expects from a Fire Department.

    The only way it would be a "waste of time" is if the training itself was conducted in such a fashion where the members would not get any actual benefit from it.
    I agree. I was asking Tree why it would not make sense to raise the bar higher even if most of the calls are to fully involved structures. I have to think that a dept. should be ready for the 1% regardless.
    By the way, I have no idea how I got two quotes to work but I will take it!
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  25. #650
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    LA, we have depts. in the area that complain about man power and training and money and we all have a similar budget. We don't call them for mutual aid because we don't need a bunch of people standing in the yard. Depts. in the area that do all the complaining call us a lot for mutual aid because they cant seem to train, oh the excuses go on and on. Some of us have taken to calling it Mooch-ual Aid, and it fits pretty well.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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