Like Tree435Likes

Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #651
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually we have turned down 3 or 4 potential members in the last 2 years due to "quality".

    Why? Were they certified already and it would have messed up your excuses for your VFD never improving?

    No, but not every applicant with certifications will be a fit for every fire department.

    Especially one that doesn't enforce its own training rules. The last thing you want is a newbie coming in knowing more than your experienced stander outsider fire fighters...

    We just terminated one member during their probation because of "quality" issues.

    Yet you keep deadwood that won't come to training. WHY? You can't have rules or standards if you don't enforce them.

    Why?

    Because if you have rules you don't enforce they are as meaningless as your so called training programs when you don't discipline people for non-attendance.

    We had a structure fire this morning. 1 AM

    We had a total of 6 members respond. The Chief, myself, 1 interior member and 3 very experienced "deadwood" drivers/exterior members that have not made a lot of training, but guess what, they got the engines on the air, stretched additional lines and ran the pump while the Chief and 1 other member conducted an exterior attack waiting for the AMA that was about 4 minutes behind the first in engine.


    Why did you need 3 engines and 3 pump operators to have one line pee in a window? You had 2 guys that could have gone interior but chose not to because your "exterior, undertained, don't attend training, members" couldn't go in. Beautiful. I am guessing you think they did a great job...

    Guess they were pretty valuable on this occasion, eh?

    Not really. If 2 of them could have masked up and gone interior the fire may have been out before your AMA that saves your *** by going inside showed up.

    Nope, you retain members who refuse to follow the rules and train according to your rules your standards are meaningless and unenforceable. If you dismissed me for lack of quality I would probably turn around and file a discrimination complaint against your FD and you would lose because of past practices of not equally enforcing your own rules. One of these days someone is going to sue the living schitt out of either one of your FDs and you guys are going to be left hanging like laundry on the line.

    Disagree, but hey ... have fun with that.

    Disagree all you want. Eventually one of your good old boy paid guys is going to say "WTF am I doing going in to fire calls on my off time for no pay?" He is then going to do some research, find you are violating federal law and BAM, the house of cards will all fall down. Frankly, the way you don't even follow your own rules pretty much precludes you from using them to discipline or remove anyone from the department.
    Its all a house of cards, built on a sinking foundation of excuses, poor training,and spotty if at all enforcement o fyour very own department rules...Yeah, that will never cause a problem...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-30-2013 at 12:24 AM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  2. #652
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Was last night the best scenario? No, and I'm not going to say that it was.

    Basically the Chief had to decide if he was going to go interior as working command or remain exterior as fixed command. He choose to remain exterior.

    Had he had one other interior firefighter he may have sent a 2-firefighter crew interior before the arrival of AMA, but once he choose to remain exterior, that was no longer an option, and due to my travel distance, I was not going to arrive before the AMA engine.

    That being said, had he not had the exterior/drivers, he would have had only 1 engine initially and 1tanker on-scene after a few minutes, plus the AMA engine, vs. 3 of our engines initially and a myself with the 5000g tanker. He also would have had just himself and the single interior firefighter until the arrival of the AMA engine and myself.

    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms.

    Best case scenario? Again, no. But certainly far better than without the exterior/driver-only personnel.

    Unfortunately our Deputy Chief and captain were on-shift at the neighboring combo department and even though they came in AMA they were unavailable to us.
    Your reading comprehension really sucks. I wasn't questioning the tactics for the fire or the decisions made. You described an operation using 6 people that my department could accomplish with 3. You claimed that those extra 3 people were "valuable" to the incident. I simply wanted to know what that "value" was that they added since it appeared that having twice as many people wasn't yielding more tasks getting done. Given your history, I suspected that you left something out. Just curious as to what that was.

  3. #653
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Was last night the best scenario? No, and I'm not going to say that it was.

    Yet, my #1 POC FD, with 4 interior firefighters, pulled an interior attack line, an exterior attack line, made a hydrant connection, had a pump operator and went inside and attacked the fire. WITH 4 FIREFIGHTERS ON SCENE INITIALLY.

    Basically the Chief had to decide if he was going to go interior as working command or remain exterior as fixed command. He choose to remain exterior.

    Um, was he fixed exterior command or was he, as you said above operating an exterior handline through a window? Because YOU repeatedly chastised Chenzo for his working command and whether you like it or not, interior or exterior command that is actively involved in fireground activities is NOT a fixed command he is a WORKING COMMAND.

    Had he had one other interior firefighter he may have sent a 2-firefighter crew interior before the arrival of AMA, but once he choose to remain exterior, that was no longer an option, and due to my travel distance, I was not going to arrive before the AMA engine.

    Whatever...if the mutual aid engine less than 4 minutes out why did he choose to stay outside?

    That being said, had he not had the exterior/drivers, he would have had only 1 engine initially and 1tanker on-scene after a few minutes, plus the AMA engine, vs. 3 of our engines initially and a myself with the 5000g tanker. He also would have had just himself and the single interior firefighter until the arrival of the AMA engine and myself.

    So do tell why he needed more than one engine to spray water in a window with one handline?

    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms.

    How much LESS damage would have been done had they gone inside right away and cut off the fire versus spraying water in a window.

    Best case scenario? Again, no. But certainly far better than without the exterior/driver-only personnel.

    How so? Tell me exactly what the benefit was? How did they help extinguish the fire DIRECTLY?

    Unfortunately our Deputy Chief and captain were on-shift at the neighboring combo department and even though they came in AMA they were unavailable to us.

    Golly another example of a HUGE flaw in your officer corps. Since they are seemingly out of town more than in town they are of little value the majority of the time.
    Just more blather from you LA.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  4. #654
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Its all a house of cards, built on a sinking foundation of excuses, poor training, and spotty if at all enforcement of your very own department rules...Yeah, that will never cause a problem...
    1 short post summing up the situation very well.
    Chenzo likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #655
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Yet, my #1 POC FD, with 4 interior firefighters, pulled an interior attack line, an exterior attack line, made a hydrant connection, had a pump operator and went inside and attacked the fire. WITH 4 FIREFIGHTERS ON SCENE INITIALLY.


    MY combo department does that all the time. Biggest difference between mt VFD and combo department is the experience level. More experience means that they can do more.

    Funny thing is that we could have done that here as well but the IC decided that he didn't want to be IC from the interior and tied to the handline. 2 of 3 exterior members were quite experienced and likely could have managed to run the event until the AMA Duty Chief showed up with the AMA engine.


    Um, was he fixed exterior command or was he, as you said above operating an exterior handline through a window? Because YOU repeatedly chastised Chenzo for his working command and whether you like it or not, interior or exterior command that is actively involved in fireground activities is NOT a fixed command he is a WORKING COMMAND.

    The one interior firefighter on scene plus the 2 non-interior members were stretching and operating the line, not the Chief. I suspect he was doing a 360 while they were doing that. The third non-interior member also assisted when he arrived with the third engine. By the way bro, this was in an area with no hydrants.

    And by the way, there is a major difference between the IC performing tasks exterior and being on the handline interior.


    Whatever...if the mutual aid engine less than 4 minutes out why did he choose to stay outside?

    Because that is his operational philosophy. He wants the IC exterior. from what I understand, much of the fire was knocked down by the exterior transitional line prior to the arrival of the AMA engine.


    So do tell why he needed more than one engine to spray water in a window with one handline?

    They didn't, but they needed multiple engines enroute due to the fact that the area was non-hydranted. That is how having multiple non-interior drivers and exterior firefighters/drivers works out for us and makes sense for most rural VFDs.

    How much LESS damage would have been done had they gone inside right away and cut off the fire versus spraying water in a window.

    Actually, no.

    Fire already had control of the master bedroom and hallway on arrival. Dispatch time to arrival was about 12 minutes, which is typical for this part of our district. AMA arrived about 4 minutes later.

    As I stated above, from what I have been told, much of the fire was knocked down with an exterior line through 2 windows prior to the arrival of the AMA crew.



    How so? Tell me exactly what the benefit was? How did they help extinguish the fire DIRECTLY?

    Stretched lines, Assisted operating the exterior lines. Ran pumps. Ran supply engines. Grabbed tools. All pretty much part of the DIRECT fire suppression operation.


    Golly another example of a HUGE flaw in your officer corps. Since they are seemingly out of town more than in town they are of little value the majority of the time.

    So should we then pick the 2 guys that work 80 hours a week in the gasfields. Maybe the guy that works M-F daytime and is on-call 4 nights a week and can't respond during that time. or maybe the guy that spends half of his time being sent around the country to work.

    Yes, our officers are out of town and unavailable quite a bit. Very common in this area as non of our members, except for one who works days for the village, work in town and many work jobs that eat up 70-80 hours a week.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-30-2013 at 11:27 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #656
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Your reading comprehension really sucks. I wasn't questioning the tactics for the fire or the decisions made. You described an operation using 6 people that my department could accomplish with 3. You claimed that those extra 3 people were "valuable" to the incident. I simply wanted to know what that "value" was that they added since it appeared that having twice as many people wasn't yielding more tasks getting done. Given your history, I suspected that you left something out. Just curious as to what that was.
    What value ....

    Well without them there would have been 2 responders initially .. the Chief and the one interior member rather than 5.

    The 3 exterior members operated the pump, stretched the line with the firefighter while the Chief did a 360, set up the supply line for the next truck, set up a fan for PPV operations, set up a tool cache at the door and set up lighting.

    I would say all and all some pretty valuable stuff.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #657
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yet, my #1 POC FD, with 4 interior firefighters, pulled an interior attack line, an exterior attack line, made a hydrant connection, had a pump operator and went inside and attacked the fire. WITH 4 FIREFIGHTERS ON SCENE INITIALLY.


    MY combo department does that all the time. Biggest difference between mt VFD and combo department is the experience level. More experience means that they can do more.

    Funny thing is that we could have done that here as well but the IC decided that he didn't want to be IC from the interior and tied to the handline. 2 of 3 exterior members were quite experienced and likely could have managed to run the event until the AMA Duty Chief showed up with the AMA engine.


    So which version of this fantasy tale is true Bobby? The one you say in this post or your original post? You know this one:

    We had a total of 6 members respond. The Chief, myself, 1 interior member and 3 very experienced "deadwood" drivers/exterior members that have not made a lot of training, but guess what, they got the engines on the air, stretched additional lines and ran the pump while the Chief and 1 other member conducted an exterior attack waiting for the AMA that was about 4 minutes behind the first in engine.
    You see Bobby that's the problem with making schitt up, you have to remember every lie you told otherwise you keep getting caught tripping on your own delusions.


    Um, was he fixed exterior command or was he, as you said above operating an exterior handline through a window? Because YOU repeatedly chastised Chenzo for his working command and whether you like it or not, interior or exterior command that is actively involved in fireground activities is NOT a fixed command he is a WORKING COMMAND.

    The one interior firefighter on scene plus the 2 non-interior members were stretching and operating the line, not the Chief. I suspect he was doing a 360 while they were doing that. The third non-interior member also assisted when he arrived with the third engine. By the way bro, this was in an area with no hydrants.

    Not what you said originally. So which lie is real?

    And by the way, there is a major difference between the IC performing tasks exterior and being on the handline interior.

    Not really, if he is actively involved in fireground tactical activities, whether inside or outside, he is a working command. Once again, may I recommend that you actually go take a command class and pay attention this time.


    Whatever...if the mutual aid engine less than 4 minutes out why did he choose to stay outside?

    Because that is his operational philosophy. He wants the IC exterior. from what I understand, much of the fire was knocked down by the exterior transitional line prior to the arrival of the AMA engine.

    Sure, sure, then why in the hell did he go interior, without proper PPE, with no back up line, to extinguish a stove fire? Surely he was command at that incident too...

    You see Bobby, when you have no considtency in what you do, and you continually make up nonsense to justify it, the results are you look like a complete bumble F***.


    So do tell why he needed more than one engine to spray water in a window with one handline?

    They didn't, but they needed multiple engines enroute due to the fact that the area was non-hydranted. That is how having multiple non-interior drivers and exterior firefighters/drivers works out for us and makes sense for most rural VFDs.

    Oh? Why? They certainly weren't pumping their engines for anything, including water supply, if they were stretching and operating an exterior hoseline. Or is that version of your fantasy the lie?

    How much LESS damage would have been done had they gone inside right away and cut off the fire versus spraying water in a window.

    Actually, no.

    Fire already had control of the master bedroom and hallway on arrival. Dispatch time to arrival was about 12 minutes, which is typical for this part of our district. AMA arrived about 4 minutes later.

    As I stated above, from what I have been told, much of the fire was knocked down with an exterior line through 2 windows prior to the arrival of the AMA crew.


    Okay, upon arrival the fire was in the master bedroom and hallway...by the time the EXTERIOR line knocked down the fire the fire had spread to 3 other rooms with heavy smoke and heat damage to 2 bedrooms on the other side of the house. Do tell how essentially gutting the inside of the house constitutes a good stop? Unless you are basing it on not burning down all the surrounding buildings. With fire in ONE room and in the hall way this seems like a classic scenario for a single line interior attack. At least it would be on almost any FD that I am aware of.

    "
    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms."
    How so? Tell me exactly what the benefit was? How did they help extinguish the fire DIRECTLY?

    Stretched lines, Assisted operating the exterior lines. Ran pumps. Ran supply engines. Grabbed tools. All pretty much part of the DIRECT fire suppression operation.

    Everything except going inside to a single room and contents fire and saving the majority of the house and contents. So again, what did they do that led to a positive outcome other than burning doen the neighborhood. I surely would not use this fire as a shining example of how good your volly FD is because frankly what you had upon arrival, the immediate actions taken, and the end results, lead me to no ther conclusion than this was absolutely pathetic.

    Golly another example of a HUGE flaw in your officer corps. Since they are seemingly out of town more than in town they are of little value the majority of the time.


    So should we then pick the 2 guys that work 80 hours a week in the gasfields. Maybe the guy that works M-F daytime and is on-call 4 nights a week and can't respond during that time. or maybe the guy that spends half of his time being sent around the country to work.

    Yes, our officers are out of town and unavailable quite a bit. Very common in this area as non of our members, except for one who works days for the village, work in town and many work jobs that eat up 70-80 hours a week.


    Remind me again of what you are doing to correct this problem? Frankly, it sounds like you need some officers that want to be firefighters and go inside and fight the damn fire. Add to that an organization that supports, pushes, and desires quality trained members that will follow the organizations rules and regs. All any of us here from you, over and over, is excuses and pitiful rationalizations for sub par performance.
    Your example of the 1 am house fire proves the point I am making and so many others are making about your VFD. Thanks for posting it.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-30-2013 at 01:36 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  8. #658
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Not really, if he is actively involved in fireground tactical activities, whether inside or outside, he is a working command. Once again, may I recommend that you actually go take a command class and pay attention this time.

    He may or may not have had his hands on the exterior line for a very short time. I really didn't ask him but I assumed that he was on the line because he was in full PPE on my arrival.

    If you want to call that working command, fine.

    If you want to say that is the same thing as being in an SCBA operating interior, that's fine as well.


    Whatever...if the mutual aid engine less than 4 minutes out why did he choose to stay outside?

    Because that is his operational philosophy. He wants the IC exterior. He does not want the IC operating interior on fire attack. It's really that simple. From what I understand, much of the fire was knocked down by the exterior transitional line prior to the arrival of the AMA engine.

    Sure, sure, then why in the hell did he go interior, without proper PPE, with no back up line, to extinguish a stove fire? Surely he was command at that incident too...

    I think there is a major difference between going interior 2' in minimal smoke conditions, looking at the fire, and then operating an extinguisher from the door almost 20' from the fire for 15 seconds as a backup lined manned by an officer with SCBA was being stretched, and then backing out for the remainder of the incident as IC, as compared to having to operate interior in an SCBA as part of a 2-firefighter handline, like he would have had to do in this case.

    But if you want to continue to argue that there isn't, fine.


    You see Bobby, when you have no considtency in what you do, and you continually make up nonsense to justify it, the results are you look like a complete bumble F***.

    You are right. No consistency.

    So do tell why he needed more than one engine to spray water in a window with one handline?

    No hydrants. if the fire wasn't knocked down would have likely been a 3000-5000g fire. Our policy is 3 engines and a tanker on any structure fire outside of the village, which is the only place we have water. We actually prefer to get all 3 of our big engines out (1500g) and our tanker (5000g) plus the AMA (1000g) engine, which is what we got out of the door that night.

    In this case we used about 2500g. That is how having multiple non-interior drivers and exterior firefighters/drivers works out for us and makes sense for most rural VFDs.

    Oh? Why? They certainly weren't pumping their engines for anything, including water supply, if they were stretching and operating an exterior hoseline. Or is that version of your fantasy the lie?

    One of the drivers of the first 2 engines on scene were pumping the attack engine 2nd due was was assisting in either stretching the handline or stretching it and assisting in manning it. The third due engine arrived about 3 minutes later just before the AMA engine. As I understand it he then put a third handline on the ground as a safety line and pumped that line from his engine. So all of the exterior members/drivers had tasks and assignments.

    How much LESS damage would have been done had they gone inside right away and cut off the fire versus spraying water in a window.

    Actually, no.

    Fire already had control of the master bedroom and the laundry room and was in the hallway.

    Fire never spread beyond the edge of the kitchen. Heat and smoke damage was significant in the living room and far hallway. Heat and smoke moderate in the far 2 bedrooms.

    The fact is unless command was interior, an interior operation was not possible until AMA arrived. And the downsides of that have already been previously discussed.

    You think it's a good idea to put your only officer interior initially. he does not. I happen to agree unless there is a KNOWN rescue of a VIABLE victim.




    Okay, upon arrival the fire was in the master bedroom and hallway...by the time the EXTERIOR line knocked down the fire the fire had spread to 3 other rooms with heavy smoke and heat damage to 2 bedrooms on the other side of the house. Do tell how essentially gutting the inside of the house constitutes a good stop? Unless you are basing it on not burning down all the surrounding buildings. With fire in ONE room and in the hall way this seems like a classic scenario for a single line interior attack. At least it would be on almost any FD that I am aware of.

    For that area, with that response time, and for our department, it was a good stuff. the contents of the 2 far end bedrooms were salvageable. The trailer was not.

    We simply do not have room and contents fires very often. Response times are an issue due to travel distance to a station and distances from the station of the typical incident. (See Tree's earlier post) The fact is due to our response time this fire was actually a best case scenario.


    "
    Everything except going inside to a single room and contents fire and saving the majority of the house and contents. So again, what did they do that led to a positive outcome other than burning doen the neighborhood. I surely would not use this fire as a shining example of how good your volly FD is because frankly what you had upon arrival, the immediate actions taken, and the end results, lead me to no ther conclusion than this was absolutely pathetic.



    Didn't have a room and contents on arrival. It had spread beyond the master to the laundry room with fire down the hall leading to the kitchen. Again, for our department with our response times, this was a good outcome. Sorry if we don't meet your standards.



    Remind me again of what you are doing to correct this problem? Frankly, it sounds like you need some officers that want to be firefighters and go inside and fight the damn fire. Add to that an organization that supports, pushes, and desires quality trained members that will follow the organizations rules and regs. All any of us here from you, over and over, is excuses and pitiful rationalizations for sub par performance.Your example of the 1 am house fire proves the point I am making and so many others are making about your VFD. Thanks for posting it.

    Besides the availability of the officers, who in this case, ARE the most experienced members of the department, what problem?

    Had this fire occurred on any other shift, or the 20 nights out of the month,likely both our Captain and Asst. Chief would have responded and we would have had all the officers on-scene.

    The Chief believes in getting inside when manpower permits and that does not include the initial IC going interior for a working event. The Asst. Chief and Captain are both very aggressive. In some cases, too aggressive. And I'll go interior when the conditions and situation meets my established parameters as far as resources and risk/benefit.

    And what does this fire prove? There were not enough members to safely operate interior until the AMA engine arrived. A fire attack was conducted from the exterior that knocked down the bulk of the fire. Once AMA arrived interior operations began and the remaining fire was knocked down. Overhaul was conducted and no members were injured. Sounds like a pretty good operation given the very limited resources initially available.

    It does prove that we are short staffed, but that was already known. It does prove that our drivers-only and exterior members are critical and just as valuable as interior members. And since our AMA actually gave us another 5 members beyond the AMA engine, it proves that we can get additional resources from them if needed.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #659
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not really, if he is actively involved in fireground tactical activities, whether inside or outside, he is a working command. Once again, may I recommend that you actually go take a command class and pay attention this time.

    He may or may not have had his hands on the exterior line for a very short time. I really didn't ask him but I assumed that he was on the line because he was in full PPE on my arrival.

    If you want to call that working command, fine.

    If you want to say that is the same thing as being in an SCBA operating interior, that's fine as well.


    Whatever...if the mutual aid engine less than 4 minutes out why did he choose to stay outside?

    Because that is his operational philosophy. He wants the IC exterior. He does not want the IC operating interior on fire attack. It's really that simple. From what I understand, much of the fire was knocked down by the exterior transitional line prior to the arrival of the AMA engine.

    Sure, sure, then why in the hell did he go interior, without proper PPE, with no back up line, to extinguish a stove fire? Surely he was command at that incident too...

    I think there is a major difference between going interior 2' in minimal smoke conditions, looking at the fire, and then operating an extinguisher from the door almost 20' from the fire for 15 seconds as a backup lined manned by an officer with SCBA was being stretched, and then backing out for the remainder of the incident as IC, as compared to having to operate interior in an SCBA as part of a 2-firefighter handline, like he would have had to do in this case.

    But if you want to continue to argue that there isn't, fine.


    You see Bobby, when you have no considtency in what you do, and you continually make up nonsense to justify it, the results are you look like a complete bumble F***.

    You are right. No consistency.

    So do tell why he needed more than one engine to spray water in a window with one handline?

    No hydrants. if the fire wasn't knocked down would have likely been a 3000-5000g fire. Our policy is 3 engines and a tanker on any structure fire outside of the village, which is the only place we have water. We actually prefer to get all 3 of our big engines out (1500g) and our tanker (5000g) plus the AMA (1000g) engine, which is what we got out of the door that night.

    In this case we used about 2500g. That is how having multiple non-interior drivers and exterior firefighters/drivers works out for us and makes sense for most rural VFDs.

    Oh? Why? They certainly weren't pumping their engines for anything, including water supply, if they were stretching and operating an exterior hoseline. Or is that version of your fantasy the lie?

    One of the drivers of the first 2 engines on scene were pumping the attack engine 2nd due was was assisting in either stretching the handline or stretching it and assisting in manning it. The third due engine arrived about 3 minutes later just before the AMA engine. As I understand it he then put a third handline on the ground as a safety line and pumped that line from his engine. So all of the exterior members/drivers had tasks and assignments.

    How much LESS damage would have been done had they gone inside right away and cut off the fire versus spraying water in a window.

    Actually, no.

    Fire already had control of the master bedroom and the laundry room and was in the hallway.

    Fire never spread beyond the edge of the kitchen. Heat and smoke damage was significant in the living room and far hallway. Heat and smoke moderate in the far 2 bedrooms.

    The fact is unless command was interior, an interior operation was not possible until AMA arrived. And the downsides of that have already been previously discussed.

    You think it's a good idea to put your only officer interior initially. he does not. I happen to agree unless there is a KNOWN rescue of a VIABLE victim.




    Okay, upon arrival the fire was in the master bedroom and hallway...by the time the EXTERIOR line knocked down the fire the fire had spread to 3 other rooms with heavy smoke and heat damage to 2 bedrooms on the other side of the house. Do tell how essentially gutting the inside of the house constitutes a good stop? Unless you are basing it on not burning down all the surrounding buildings. With fire in ONE room and in the hall way this seems like a classic scenario for a single line interior attack. At least it would be on almost any FD that I am aware of.

    For that area, with that response time, and for our department, it was a good stuff. the contents of the 2 far end bedrooms were salvageable. The trailer was not.

    We simply do not have room and contents fires very often. Response times are an issue due to travel distance to a station and distances from the station of the typical incident. (See Tree's earlier post) The fact is due to our response time this fire was actually a best case scenario.


    "
    Everything except going inside to a single room and contents fire and saving the majority of the house and contents. So again, what did they do that led to a positive outcome other than burning doen the neighborhood. I surely would not use this fire as a shining example of how good your volly FD is because frankly what you had upon arrival, the immediate actions taken, and the end results, lead me to no ther conclusion than this was absolutely pathetic.



    Didn't have a room and contents on arrival. It had spread beyond the master to the laundry room with fire down the hall leading to the kitchen. Again, for our department with our response times, this was a good outcome. Sorry if we don't meet your standards.



    Remind me again of what you are doing to correct this problem? Frankly, it sounds like you need some officers that want to be firefighters and go inside and fight the damn fire. Add to that an organization that supports, pushes, and desires quality trained members that will follow the organizations rules and regs. All any of us here from you, over and over, is excuses and pitiful rationalizations for sub par performance.Your example of the 1 am house fire proves the point I am making and so many others are making about your VFD. Thanks for posting it.

    Besides the availability of the officers, who in this case, ARE the most experienced members of the department, what problem?

    Had this fire occurred on any other shift, or the 20 nights out of the month,likely both our Captain and Asst. Chief would have responded and we would have had all the officers on-scene.

    The Chief believes in getting inside when manpower permits and that does not include the initial IC going interior for a working event. The Asst. Chief and Captain are both very aggressive. In some cases, too aggressive. And I'll go interior when the conditions and situation meets my established parameters as far as resources and risk/benefit.

    And what does this fire prove? There were not enough members to safely operate interior until the AMA engine arrived. A fire attack was conducted from the exterior that knocked down the bulk of the fire. Once AMA arrived interior operations began and the remaining fire was knocked down. Overhaul was conducted and no members were injured. Sounds like a pretty good operation given the very limited resources initially available.

    It does prove that we are short staffed, but that was already known. It does prove that our drivers-only and exterior members are critical and just as valuable as interior members. And since our AMA actually gave us another 5 members beyond the AMA engine, it proves that we can get additional resources from them if needed.
    You have changed your story 3 times now on what the fire was upon arrival.

    You have changed your story twice on whether the chief did or did not operate the exterior line.

    Frankly, your absolute refusal to understand what a working command is speaks volumes about how much you don't know about command.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #660
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default



    You have changed your story 3 times now on what the fire was upon arrival.

    You have changed your story twice on whether the chief did or did not operate the exterior line.

    Frankly, your absolute refusal to understand what a working command is speaks volumes about how much you don't know about command.


    Here is my original post on the fire:

    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms.

    Pretty consistent to what I have been saying throughout this thread. And yes, for us, given the resources and response times to that area, it was a good stop. Not unhappy at all with the end result given the circumstances.

    As far as the Chief being on the line, does it matter that much? The interior firefighter operated the nozzle. The Chief may have been on the line directing where he wanted it but it was not, in all likelihood a active backup role where he could not back away to access his radio or give verbal orders to the other exterior members.

    The member could have operated it without him.

    If it's that important to you. we'll call it working command. I would not define a moment or two on the handline exterior as working command, but hey, have at it.

    I really don't care.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #661
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post


    You have changed your story 3 times now on what the fire was upon arrival.

    You have changed your story twice on whether the chief did or did not operate the exterior line.

    Frankly, your absolute refusal to understand what a working command is speaks volumes about how much you don't know about command.


    Here is my original post on the fire:

    In the end, it was a good stop with fire consuming the master bedroom and laundry room, heavy to moderate fire damage to the kitchen and a small part of the living room and moderate heat and smoke damage to the two far end bedrooms.

    Pretty consistent to what I have been saying throughout this thread. And yes, for us, given the resources and response times to that area, it was a good stop. Not unhappy at all with the end result given the circumstances.

    As far as the Chief being on the line, does it matter that much? The interior firefighter operated the nozzle. The Chief may have been on the line directing where he wanted it but it was not, in all likelihood a active backup role where he could not back away to access his radio or give verbal orders to the other exterior members.

    The member could have operated it without him.

    If it's that important to you. we'll call it working command. I would not define a moment or two on the handline exterior as working command, but hey, have at it.

    I really don't care.
    Just more blather...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  12. #662
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What value ....

    Well without them there would have been 2 responders initially .. the Chief and the one interior member rather than 5.

    The 3 exterior members operated the pump, stretched the line with the firefighter while the Chief did a 360, set up the supply line for the next truck, set up a fan for PPV operations, set up a tool cache at the door and set up lighting.

    I would say all and all some pretty valuable stuff.
    I would agree that those actions were valuable, however you neglected to mention any of that in the post I originally commented on or subsequent posts inquiring if they did anything else. Not sure why it was so difficult for you to explain this sooner.

  13. #663
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    But are you saying that I am wasting my time by trying to get the boys interior certified because MOST of what we run is fully involved?
    Oh, heavens, no! Because we, too, do get fires we can do an agressive interior attack on. And we do.

    Something those old houses do often give us, though, is a prolonged, smoky overhaul, which requires interior folks, too. The structure will stand up to more fire than cardboard and toothpicks, but every stud space is another concealed space that could be hiding fire. Real pain in the butt.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  14. #664
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What value ....

    Well without them there would have been 2 responders initially .. the Chief and the one interior member rather than 5.

    The 3 exterior members operated the pump, stretched the line with the firefighter while the Chief did a 360, set up the supply line for the next truck, set up a fan for PPV operations, set up a tool cache at the door and set up lighting.

    I would say all and all some pretty valuable stuff.
    And yet another version of how this fire was handled. Keep making schitt up LA and eventually you will make yourselves look good.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-31-2013 at 11:08 PM.
    FireMedic049 and Chenzo like this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #665
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I would agree that those actions were valuable, however you neglected to mention any of that in the post I originally commented on or subsequent posts inquiring if they did anything else. Not sure why it was so difficult for you to explain this sooner.
    Because he had to keep rewriting the story until he made those exterior guys look valuable and change it from the chief being on the exterior line to doing a 360 and being ONLY command. The story is on its third editing now.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #666
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Because he had to keep rewriting the story until he made those exterior guys look valuable and change it from the chief being on the exterior line to doing a 360 and being ONLY command. The story is on its third editing now.
    Until they "look" valuable?

    I simply can't understand your perspective on exterior members and drivers-only.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #667
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Your "perspective" of what the fire service mission should be is flawed.
    Chenzo and rm1524 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #668
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I simply can't understand your perspective on exterior members and drivers-only.
    Here's my take on it.

    Let's say you have a department of 25. 10 of them are interior qualified, 10 of them are exterior ONLY "qualified", and 5 of them are strictly drivers. You get a call for a structure fire, and you get 8 guys to show up, 1 interior member, 9 exterior members, 1 driver.

    Tell me what you're going to do other than burn the house down. You've only got one guy who can go inside, what are you gonna do other than lob water in the windows and hope for the best?

    That's my problem with exterior and driver only personnel. What if they're all you get to show up? Then you're up schitt creek without a damn paddle.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  19. #669
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Until they "look" valuable?

    I simply can't understand your perspective on exterior members and drivers-only.
    Chenzo spelled it out exactly. Frankly, look at the trailer fire you are touting as a shining example of your exterior guys value. The entire department stood OUTSIDE and lobbed water in to a fire that YOU ORIGINALLY SAID was in one room and the hallway and the fire spread into several other rooms either with fire directly of smoke and heat damage. My point is if you had 2 to 4 interior guys they could have gone in IMMEDIATELY cut the fire off in the hallway, vented that end of the traler and pushed the fire, smoke and heat right out that end instead of it spreading throughout the trailer.

    No matter how you slice it, while your exterior guys can do tasks that are valuable they will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, be as valuable or important as firefighters that can enter a structure on fire, extinguish the fire and search for and rescue victims. You can click your ruby slippers together all you want and wish for it to be so, but it simply never will be.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #670
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    I worked construction all my life. On the job -a carpenter could do all of the skill sets. granted some better than others. But to be a carpenter, you had a baseline. In other words EVERYONE could drive a nail, use a saw , and read a tape. We didn't have "hammer guys" or "tape measure guys" -
    FyredUp and Chenzo like this.
    ?

  21. #671
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Here's my take on it.

    Let's say you have a department of 25. 10 of them are interior qualified, 10 of them are exterior ONLY "qualified", and 5 of them are strictly drivers. You get a call for a structure fire, and you get 8 guys to show up, 1 interior member, 9 exterior members, 1 driver.

    Tell me what you're going to do other than burn the house down. You've only got one guy who can go inside, what are you gonna do other than lob water in the windows and hope for the best?

    That's my problem with exterior and driver only personnel. What if they're all you get to show up? Then you're up schitt creek without a damn paddle.
    In a perfect world, I would love to have a department of 25, to use your example, interior personnel. Yes, that is the ideal situation.

    But that is simply not the reality of most rural VFDs. Never has been, and never will be.

    The fact is that most rural communities will never be able to field a sizable department of members who are physically capable of going interior. That is the reality of the volunteer fire service. Are there places where that could happen? Sure, but it is, in my experience, the exception and not the rule.

    So is your answer to not utilize volunteers who do not wish to or or not physically capable of interior operations. Is your answer really not to utilize members who are capable of driving and pumping apparatus, establishing water supplied, operating exterior handlines, setting up ventilation operations, performing vehicle extrication operations or performing a laundry list of essentail fire department operations because they cannot or wish not to perform one?

    Must be nice to have the kind of recruiting pool where you actually can make that demand. We don't, and never will.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  22. #672
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Chenzo spelled it out exactly. Frankly, look at the trailer fire you are touting as a shining example of your exterior guys value. The entire department stood OUTSIDE and lobbed water in to a fire that YOU ORIGINALLY SAID was in one room and the hallway and the fire spread into several other rooms either with fire directly of smoke and heat damage. My point is if you had 2 to 4 interior guys they could have gone in IMMEDIATELY cut the fire off in the hallway, vented that end of the traler and pushed the fire, smoke and heat right out that end instead of it spreading throughout the trailer.

    No matter how you slice it, while your exterior guys can do tasks that are valuable they will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, be as valuable or important as firefighters that can enter a structure on fire, extinguish the fire and search for and rescue victims. You can click your ruby slippers together all you want and wish for it to be so, but it simply never will be.
    If ...... If ..... If ....

    The fact is we didn't, and most if not all of the VFDs in this part of state have a handful of interior members supported by an equal, or in some cases, greater numbers of exterior members of varying capabilities.

    Again, is that the way i prefer it? No, but that is the way that it is. There simply is a very limited number of younger, physically capable members volunteering for the fire service. It's just not something that the vast majority of the young folks in LA want to do. There isn't, and likely never will be the draw to the volunteer fire service in this part of the south that there was in my area of the northeast, and from the sounds of it, your area of the midwest.

    It's just something that is not on their radar.

    So we operate with exterior members to support the limited number of interior members available to us. And it works, most of the time.

    So we do what we can do. And without those exterior members we would have had 2 members on scene until I arrived.

    And yes, they made a difference in the outcome. Without them likely the entire trailer would have been lost including the stuff that was salvaged from the 2 bedrooms on the far end. The reality is the fire did enough damage to the trailer before anyone arrived that the structure would have been a loss. Due to the response time, the fire was a loss before we ever arrived, and that is the reality in most of our district.

    If you want to sit there and say that one set of members are more valuable than another, have at it, but to me EVERY member of the department has equal value.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  23. #673
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I worked construction all my life. On the job -a carpenter could do all of the skill sets. granted some better than others. But to be a carpenter, you had a baseline. In other words EVERYONE could drive a nail, use a saw , and read a tape. We didn't have "hammer guys" or "tape measure guys" -
    And to compare a job vs. a volunteer fire department .. well ... it's not comparable.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  24. #674
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In a perfect world, I would love to have a department of 25, to use your example, interior personnel. Yes, that is the ideal situation.

    But that is simply not the reality of most rural VFDs. Never has been, and never will be.

    You just furthered my point. Thanks
    If you have 15 guys on your FD, 5 are interior, 7 are exterior only, and 3 are driver only, and you get 1 interior, 3 exterior, and a driver, my point is still valid.


    The fact is that most rural communities will never be able to field a sizable department of members who are physically capable of going interior. That is the reality of the volunteer fire service. Are there places where that could happen? Sure, but it is, in my experience, the exception and not the rule.

    Department 1, we cover a 1.1 square mile village, and mutual aid with our neighboring districts. 19 or 20 members on the roster now. Everyone, EVERYONE on that department, even the ones who have said they they aren't comfortable going inside are qualified to go interior, minus the two probationary members, who have been on the department for 3 months, and are in the process of going through class....

    Department 2. We cover just under 95 square miles, including the village and 4 townships. 32 members on staff. EVERYONE is interior qualified, even those that we consider our drivers... EVERYONE is interior qualified.

    If your department would adopt some damn standards that didn't cater to the wannabes, it WOULD be the rule.


    So is your answer to not utilize volunteers who do not wish to or or not physically capable of interior operations. Is your answer really not to utilize members who are capable of driving and pumping apparatus, establishing water supplied, operating exterior handlines, setting up ventilation operations, performing vehicle extrication operations or performing a laundry list of essentail fire department operations because they cannot or wish not to perform one?

    What good are all of those exterior only members if you still burn the house down? What did you save? What did you accomplish that the DPW couldn't with a guy, some cones, and some traffic sticks to keep traffic away?

    Must be nice to have the kind of recruiting pool where you actually can make that demand. We don't, and never will.

    It's okay. You find burning houses down to be acceptable, I don't. You find exterior only members to be a valuable asset alone. I don't. Exterior only qualified members can be useful, absolutely. But they are no better than the manager at Walmart if you don't have anyone to actually go in and put the fire out.
    The biggest problem is that your laundry list of essential fire department operations constitutes of whatever it takes just to NOT burn the whole neighborhood down. Sorry, that's not good enough for me and many others.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  25. #675
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And to compare a job vs. a volunteer fire department .. well ... it's not comparable.
    True. And as such those in pathetic VFD's like your dept. shouldn't call themselves firefighters.
    SPFDRum and FyredUp like this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. e-one's essay contest
    By fireflymedic in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-09-2009, 02:50 PM
  2. E-One's new chassis!
    By micke7 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 05-01-2007, 10:07 AM
  3. This one's for you, Bou!!!
    By Adze39 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-08-2004, 06:35 AM
  4. Really Big Brass One's!!!!
    By Jim917 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-17-2003, 04:52 PM
  5. y no one's been to my site?
    By TFD-JC06 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-27-2002, 11:34 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register