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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #521
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Hey LA, what do you think of your vol. dept.? Where are they at in developing into an effective fighting force. What have you done to further their development? What have they done to further their development? Where are they at bottom, middle, top? Do you have any responsibility in their development? Do they? Does anyone ask these questions at your dept.? I have asked them at mine. You have no unique problems. None.
    I have heard good leaders ask from time to time if anyone in our dept. is content with the way things are. If people are content then the drive to learn has gone. They don't want to make sacrifices of their personal time and don't care that others may depend on them. There are not very many volunteer depts. where the minimum training hours develop proficient or even competent firefighters. A leader that tells the members that it is okay to strive for the lowest training level is selling his dept. short. Remember the movie Office Space? I look at firefighting like having pieces of flair on your vest. Sure you can get by with the minimum pieces of flair, and even call yourself a firefighter, but gee, wouldn't you like to have more pieces of flair? That probably does not make any sense, but my mind kind of works in a screwball fashion.
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  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    [B]Hey LA, what do you think of your vol. dept.? Where are they at in developing into an effective fighting force.[/B] Improving.[/COLOR] What have you done to further their development? Increased the complexity and difficulty of weekly training. Developed and implemented a rookie class. Attended outside training with them as an example.. What have they done to further their development? Several of the members have attended outside classes. Several of the members have attended more of the weekly training. Three of the members have either tested out or scheduled to test out FFI.Where are they at bottom, middle, top? We are as good as any volunteer department in the parish, with the exception of the neighboring city combo department, and better than several. All of the parish VFDs suffer from lack of manpower, and many are far worse off than us in terms of interior manpower. Do you have any responsibility in their development? I assist the training officer in developing and delivering training. Do they? Does anyone ask these questions at your dept.? A few. I have asked them at mine. You have no unique problems. None.
    I have heard good leaders ask from time to time if anyone in our dept. is content with the way things are. If people are content then the drive to learn has gone. They don't want to make sacrifices of their personal time and don't care that others may depend on them. There are not very many volunteer depts. where the minimum training hours develop proficient or even competent firefighters. A leader that tells the members that it is okay to strive for the lowest training level is selling his dept. short. Remember the movie Office Space? I look at firefighting like having pieces of flair on your vest. Sure you can get by with the minimum pieces of flair, and even call yourself a firefighter, but gee, wouldn't you like to have more pieces of flair? That probably does not make any sense, but my mind kind of works in a screwball fashion.
    The fact is we are a rural VFD that for many years was fairly complacent regarding training and would take anyone who walked through the door, and mandated very little of them.

    New Chief. We have actually declined to offer membership to three folks in the last 2 years as they simply didn't meet his standards. We now enforce training standards which is a significant change and has led to 4 older members being told bye-bye in the last 18 months.

    They getting better, but many times they put stuff ahead of the fire department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-21-2013 at 12:10 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #523
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They getting better, but many times they put stuff ahead of the fire department.
    Thank you for continuing to confirm the fact that your VFD is comprised of pathetic souls like yourself.
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    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #524
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Remember the movie Office Space? I look at firefighting like having pieces of flair on your vest. Sure you can get by with the minimum pieces of flair, and even call yourself a firefighter, but gee, wouldn't you like to have more pieces of flair? That probably does not make any sense, but my mind kind of works in a screwball fashion.
    I'm sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're a screwball, BUT, that office space reference is spot on for anyone who has seen and remembers that part of the movie.

    You can do the bare minimum, slide by, and hope for the best, or you can go above and beyond to make sure you're the best you can be when your community needs you.
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  5. #525
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It is my job as an officer to think about the member's families, and the consequence's that my decision to go or no-go may have on them.
    No, no it's really not.... In a way, yeah, every officer is basing their operations on the desire to send everyone of his/her firefighters home, but they aren't making a go-no go decision like yours.

    Jim-Bob's mortgage isn't on my mind. Taking Jim-Bob inside (WHEN WARRANTED), knocking down and extinguishing the fire, and mitigating the emergency for which we were called in a SAFE and effective manner so Jim-Bob can go home is what's on my mind.

    The problem is your priorities. They are so beyond fu*ked up that I don't understand why your members still allow you to be in a position of influence over your department.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thank you for continuing to confirm the fact that your VFD is comprised of pathetic souls like yourself.
    And how many times did you attend training without compensation outside of your full time job???

    Wait for it .... You didn't have to.

    I guess you really don't have a dog in this fight then.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    No, no it's really not.... In a way, yeah, every officer is basing their operations on the desire to send everyone of his/her firefighters home, but they aren't making a go-no go decision like yours.

    Jim-Bob's mortgage isn't on my mind. Taking Jim-Bob inside (WHEN WARRANTED), knocking down and extinguishing the fire, and mitigating the emergency for which we were called in a SAFE and effective manner so Jim-Bob can go home is what's on my mind.

    The problem is your priorities. They are so beyond fu*ked up that I don't understand why your members still allow you to be in a position of influence over your department.
    You call keeping member safety THE priority f**ked up.

    I think that should always be our primary focus.

    If I can keep the members safe and mitigate the incident, great.

    If I have to put the members health at risk to mitigate the incident, we will have to find another mitigation technique. Or the incident simply may not be mitigated.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #528
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call keeping member safety THE priority f**ked up.

    I think that should always be our primary focus.

    If I can keep the members safe and mitigate the incident, great.

    If I have to put the members health at risk to mitigate the incident, we will have to find another mitigation technique. Or the incident simply may not be mitigated.
    That's a cop out. As has been stated before, firefighting is inherently dangerous. You can't remove that danger by refusing to make entry unless the conditions are jussssstttttt right. All the members on my department know that it's an inherently dangerous activity, but imagine that, they still want to do it.

    The members health is at risk as soon as the pager goes off. Before they even make it to the station and get bombarded with your safety sally bullschitt. Even if they drive the exact same way they would if there wasn't a fire call, even if they follow the speed limit and all traffic signs, there still putting themselves at risk because there are ALWAYS outside forces that could throw a wrench into things. They could get into their car, pull safely onto the roadway, and get schmucked by a semi or a dumptruck. That doesn't mean people just hide in their home everyday.

    Member safety is absolutely a priority, and a case can be argued that it is THE priority. However that doesn't mean that we automatically commit to exterior operations because the sun is out today.

    Considering you've stated that you'll write structures off based on the construction type before you've even left the building proves to me even more that everything you post here are excuses and cop outs.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  9. #529
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    La, Do you have a 5 point restraint system in your personal vehicle? Do you wear a fire resistant NASCAR suit when you're driving? How about a helmet? No? Why not? More people are killed in automobile accidents in a month in this country than firefighters are killed in a year. How are you going to provide for your family if you get run over by a drunk semi driver?

    How about a bullet proof vest? Do you wear one of those everyday? Do you, as a citizen, lawfully carry a firearm on a daily basis? No? Why not? Far, FAR more people are killed by guns in a year than firefighters are killed at incidents. How are you going to provide for your family if you get gunned down?

    See where your argument falls apart yet? Not only is firefighting inherently dangerous, this thing called "life" is inherently dangerous, and always ends in death. If you want to take all these precautions on the fire scene and use them as excuses not to act because you might break a nail, why don't you take other precautions in your ever day life?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  10. #530
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Until a a self-proclaimed safety "czar" is going to do something to address the number one killer of firefighters, his opinion is full of sh it. Dance around and make excuses of epic proportions to pretend to be all about member safety, and then turn around and dance and make every excuse in the world to not address health/welfare...makes sense?

    I'm just going to go and shake my head again.

  11. #531
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times did you attend training without compensation outside of your full time job???

    Wait for it .... You didn't have to.

    I guess you really don't have a dog in this fight then.

    Several times. Paid for out of my own pocket, to the tune of several thousands of dollars. I also had to work some forty-eight hour shifts in order to be able to do it, as the city didn't release me to attend. There were quite a few guys that went with me, as well. This meant time away from family for the training and then more time away in order to pay back the time to be off shift.

    So take the attitude and stick it. Face it, the only "dog" in this "fight" is a mutt-you.
    Chenzo, ATFDFF and RyanK63 like this.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Several times. Paid for out of my own pocket, to the tune of several thousands of dollars. I also had to work some forty-eight hour shifts in order to be able to do it, as the city didn't release me to attend. There were quite a few guys that went with me, as well. This meant time away from family for the training and then more time away in order to pay back the time to be off shift.

    So take the attitude and stick it. Face it, the only "dog" in this "fight" is a mutt-you.
    It doesn't surprise me that you have done this.

    S.C ... ummmmmmmmmm .... not.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #533
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times did you attend training without compensation outside of your full time job???

    Wait for it .... You didn't have to.

    I guess you really don't have a dog in this fight then.
    Wrong again pal. Took all my fire officer courses on my own time and numerous prep courses to enable me to attend paramedic school.

    I also took classes to prepare me for a spot on our USAR team. All at my own expense.

    Lastly, I like how your argument dissolves into money. Something vollies always resort to in order to excuse their pathetic state.

    It was very typical to hear them call themselves firefighters just like the professionals, and then say, "I'm just a volunteer" when they screwed up.

    Face it, you're just a pathetic POS.

    The best part is you prove it every day.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    That's a cop out. As has been stated before, firefighting is inherently dangerous. You can't remove that danger by refusing to make entry unless the conditions are jussssstttttt right. All the members on my department know that it's an inherently dangerous activity, but imagine that, they still want to do it.

    The members health is at risk as soon as the pager goes off. Before they even make it to the station and get bombarded with your safety sally bullschitt. Even if they drive the exact same way they would if there wasn't a fire call, even if they follow the speed limit and all traffic signs, there still putting themselves at risk because there are ALWAYS outside forces that could throw a wrench into things. They could get into their car, pull safely onto the roadway, and get schmucked by a semi or a dumptruck. That doesn't mean people just hide in their home everyday.

    Member safety is absolutely a priority, and a case can be argued that it is THE priority. However that doesn't mean that we automatically commit to exterior operations because the sun is out today.

    Considering you've stated that you'll write structures off based on the construction type before you've even left the building proves to me even more that everything you post here are excuses and cop outs.
    Yes, stepping of of the front door has risk. Driving a car has risk. Eating McDonalds has risk. Yes, there is normal, everyday risk associated with normal everyday life.

    Bit that is not the risk we are talking about. We are talking about assumed risk as a member of a fire department.

    Never did I say that all fires are exterior fires, but on my VFD, given my staffing and response times, the majority of the fires, under my command, will likely be exterior fires. It's just the way that I see things.

    This is a discussion that will never have a conclusion as we both have opinions that are incompatible with compromise or agreement.

    Firefighting is as dangerous as we decide to make it. The risk that we take is driven by our decisions, and they are driven by what we each believe is the job of a firefighter.

    And we will likely never see eye-to-eye on that either.

    Have a super sparkly day.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-21-2013 at 02:19 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #535
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times did you attend training without compensation outside of your full time job???

    Wait for it .... You didn't have to.

    I guess you really don't have a dog in this fight then.
    I can honestly say that aout 50% of my fire service education came from classes I attended off duty and paid for myself.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-21-2013 at 05:17 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  16. #536
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Have a super sparkly day.
    This sounds just as stupid as some of the other crap you say.

    And oh....Have a nice day!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  17. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I can honestly say that aout 50 % of my fire servine education came from classes I attended off uty and paid for nyself.
    With you, that's not a surprise. It's honestly what I would have expected.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #538
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Firefighting is as dangerous as we decide to make it. The risk that we take is driven by our decisions, and they are driven by what we each believe is the job of a firefighter.
    More untrue statements you use to justify being pathetic.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More untrue statements you use to justify being pathetic.
    So exactly how is that statement untrue.

    Our decisions drive our actions. One can decide to do nothing. One can decide to go completely defensive. One can decide to go transitional or one can decide the go interior without an exterior transitional hit.

    The IC can decide how passive or aggressive the operation will be.

    And yes, those decisions are driven by what the department and the IC sees as the department's responsibilities.

    So exactly is how that statement untrue?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So exactly how is that statement untrue.

    Our decisions drive our actions. One can decide to do nothing. One can decide to go completely defensive. One can decide to go transitional or one can decide the go interior without an exterior transitional hit.

    The IC can decide how passive or aggressive the operation will be.

    And yes, those decisions are driven by what the department and the IC sees as the department's responsibilities.

    So exactly is how that statement untrue?
    When cowardice automatically drives you to make no decision other than to do nothing, it is an untrue statement.
    Chenzo likes this.
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