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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #541
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If I have to put the members health at risk to mitigate the incident, we will have to find another mitigation technique. Or the incident simply may not be mitigated.
    Ok, so you will be sending any of your overweight and out of shape members for those NFPA physicals right away, correct?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."


  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ok, so you will be sending any of your overweight and out of shape members for those NFPA physicals right away, correct?
    Funny, but in both my volunteer and combo departments it's the command staff - Chiefs - that make that call.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #543
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    So exactly is how that statement untrue?
    Because sometimes the incident changes despite knowing all the available information.

    I'll give you an example that happened to a couple of colleagues back in the 90's.

    The call was for a fire in an electrical vault of a commercial center. 440V.

    So the first onscene officer orders his firefighters to go into to fast attack but not do any active fire suppression. The onscene building engineer and utility company verified that power had been cut to the vault from the street. Guess what? It wasn't cut. The firefighters proceeded to apply 150gpm to an electrical vault fully charged at 440V. Of course the vault exploded inside a very confined space. It was literally a miracle that no one was injured or killed. Turned out the circuit breakers hadn't tripped and there was still a charge from the street to the vault.

    So yes, your statement is untrue.

    BTW, you complain about money and time as the reasons why vollie firefighters shouldn't be expected to train to the level of professionals. The hole in that argument is that reserve LEO's are required in CA to have the same certs as their full time counterparts. All of it done on their own time.

    If someone can jump through those hoops to be a reserve LEO, there should be no problem with someone wanting to be a reserve firefighter. Unless they are a pathetic piece of crap like you.
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  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because sometimes the incident changes despite knowing all the available information.

    I'll give you an example that happened to a couple of colleagues back in the 90's.

    The call was for a fire in an electrical vault of a commercial center. 440V.

    So the first onscene officer orders his firefighters to go into to fast attack but not do any active fire suppression. The onscene building engineer and utility company verified that power had been cut to the vault from the street. Guess what? It wasn't cut. The firefighters proceeded to apply 150gpm to an electrical vault fully charged at 440V. Of course the vault exploded inside a very confined space. It was literally a miracle that no one was injured or killed. Turned out the circuit breakers hadn't tripped and there was still a charge from the street to the vault.

    So yes, your statement is untrue.

    BTW, you complain about money and time as the reasons why vollie firefighters shouldn't be expected to train to the level of professionals. The hole in that argument is that reserve LEO's are required in CA to have the same certs as their full time counterparts. All of it done on their own time.

    If someone can jump through those hoops to be a reserve LEO, there should be no problem with someone wanting to be a reserve firefighter. Unless they are a pathetic piece of crap like you.
    Just agreeing to disagree. I'm tired and there is bad weather coming.

    Have a super sparkly night.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So exactly how is that statement untrue.

    Our decisions drive our actions. One can decide to do nothing. One can decide to go completely defensive. One can decide to go transitional or one can decide the go interior without an exterior transitional hit.

    The IC can decide how passive or aggressive the operation will be.

    And yes, those decisions are driven by what the department and the IC sees as the department's responsibilities.

    So exactly is how that statement untrue?
    It's untrue when you write off a building before even arriving on scene or you write a building off based solely on construction and nothing else.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It's untrue when you write off a building before even arriving on scene or you write a building off based solely on construction and nothing else.
    Still the IC's decision as to how to act.

    In that case, it would be the IC's decision to take either take defensive exterior actions only, or no action, therefor exposing his personnel to very minimal risk in the case of exterior ops or no risk in the case of no action.

    In the end, the department can determine the risk based on what actions they decide to take.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #547
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just agreeing to disagree. I'm tired and there is bad weather coming.
    None of which changes you being a pathetic disgrace to the fire service. Along with your vollie colleagues.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Have a super sparkly night.
    ZZZZzzzzz.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #548
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Still the IC's decision as to how to act.

    In that case, it would be the IC's decision to take either take defensive exterior actions only, or no action, therefor exposing his personnel to very minimal risk in the case of exterior ops or no risk in the case of no action.

    In the end, the department can determine the risk based on what actions they decide to take.
    Bobby, you seriosuly cannot be this dense. You are not talking about arriving on scene, doing a 360, a size up, and THEN saying we will not enter due to xyz (which while I may disagree with your assessment, at least you did one). You are saying blanketly that there are occupancies that you will write off before you even arrive, and buildings you won't enter simply due to construction type. EXPLAIN what tactics course, or Incident Command course you took that supports that absolute drivel. The fact is the only reason for either of those tactics is the complete lack of command experience and the inability to make a fact based tactical decision based on what the incident shows you.
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    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Bobby, you seriosuly cannot be this dense. You are not talking about arriving on scene, doing a 360, a size up, and THEN saying we will not enter due to xyz (which while I may disagree with your assessment, at least you did one). You are saying blanketly that there are occupancies that you will write off before you even arrive, and buildings you won't enter simply due to construction type. EXPLAIN what tactics course, or Incident Command course you took that supports that absolute drivel. The fact is the only reason for either of those tactics is the complete lack of command experience and the inability to make a fact based tactical decision based on what the incident shows you.
    I have already discussed this several times.

    There are buildings that are built to kill firefighters quickly and with minimum or no warning and in some cases with a minimum of fire. I will not commit my members to those buildings. It's really that simple. If you don't agree, fine.

    The statement that I made was simply that firefighting is not necessarily an ultra hazardous activity. You disagreed.

    My point was that firefighting is as hazardous as the IC wants to make it based on how he/she decides to act, or in some cases, not act.

    Actions can range from absolutely none to interior operations, with an increasing level of danger as the operations become more interior-based.

    So again, the level of hazard is very dependent on the department philosophy and/or the IC's approach.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-21-2013 at 05:53 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #550
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have already discussed this several times.

    There are buildings that are built to kill firefighters quickly and with minimum or no warning and in some cases with a minimum of fire. I will not commit my members to those buildings. It's really that simple. If you don't agree, fine.

    Again, it is complete idiocy and counter to any stadard tactics to simply write off a building with no supporting reason too. By your nonsensical approach a trash can fire in the break room destroys the building and puts people out of work, most likely because the business closes. Nice work.

    The statement that I made was simply that firefighting is not necessarily an ultra hazardous activity. You disagreed.

    No, I said you simply cannot make firefighting 100% safe if you actually respond to a fire.

    My point was that firefighting is as hazardous as the IC wants to make it based on how he/she decides to act, or in some cases, not act.

    Especially if you write building off before you ever show up.

    Actions can range from absolutely none to interior operations, with an increasing level of danger as the operations become more interior-based.

    Nonsense, if you have written the building off before even arriving there are no options.

    So again, the level of hazard is very dependent on the department philosophy and/or the IC's approach.

    Excuses and doing nothing is a really great philosophy.
    More of nothing from you.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just agreeing to disagree. I'm tired and there is bad weather coming.
    It's funny, you say this, but then keep posting..............
    Have a super sparkly night.
    And you still wonder why we think you have some sort of mental illness?
    RyanK63 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Still the IC's decision as to how to act.

    In that case, it would be the IC's decision to take either take defensive exterior actions only, or no action, therefor exposing his personnel to very minimal risk in the case of exterior ops or no risk in the case of no action.

    In the end, the department can determine the risk based on what actions they decide to take.
    Do you even get off the truck or just do a drive by and say that looks bad?
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  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    And you still wonder why we think you have some sort of mental illness?
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #554
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny, but in both my volunteer and combo departments it's the command staff - Chiefs - that make that call.
    Nice try, but here's what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If I have to put the members health at risk to mitigate the incident, we will have to find another mitigation technique. Or the incident simply may not be mitigated.
    You have stated in the past several times that you maintain a position of authority and have certain input over administrative and operational control of both of your organizations. Either you do, or you don't. Pick one or the other, not both.

    You have maintained multiple times in the past that you can, have, and will continue to act as a company and department level/executive officer and incident commander. Either you do or you don't. One or the other, not both.

    In this case, I will assume that you do. (Or at least try to be an officer.) Therefore, in the spirit of protecting the health and safety of your members who have not had NFPA physicals (after all, you ARE MISTER NFPA) and you really want to do right by your guys, you don't allow them to get on apparatus at the station or allow them to do anything at the scene, correct?

    Oh, wait....My bad, you already don't allow anyone to do anything at the scene.
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  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    you know a tree could fall on your house and crush you ----------maybe you need to move to the desert. I hear theres a feller named donna in Arizona always looking for recruits, heck , I bet you could even "bunk with ? till you get settled
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    ?

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well I am at home now, relaxing .. Waiting on the weather, which is coming, but is a little behind schedule.
    Now you know how the citizens that your department serves feel when they're waiting on you to show up and deliberately destroy their homes.
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  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Nice try, but here's what you said:



    You have stated in the past several times that you maintain a position of authority and have certain input over administrative and operational control of both of your organizations. Either you do, or you don't. Pick one or the other, not both.

    You have maintained multiple times in the past that you can, have, and will continue to act as a company and department level/executive officer and incident commander. Either you do or you don't. One or the other, not both.

    In this case, I will assume that you do. (Or at least try to be an officer.) Therefore, in the spirit of protecting the health and safety of your members who have not had NFPA physicals (after all, you ARE MISTER NFPA) and you really want to do right by your guys, you don't allow them to get on apparatus at the station or allow them to do anything at the scene, correct?

    Oh, wait....My bad, you already don't allow anyone to do anything at the scene.
    I manage public education and have limited authority over daily training at my combo gig and there are limited occasions where I act as an IC.

    At my VFD I do function as part of the command staff and manage public education and manage training with the training captain at my VFD.

    That is the scope of my authority.

    I have no say in the implementation of physicals at my combo gig as there are 3 Chiefs and 8 Captains that are over me. My VFD Chief may ask me for input but likely any decision regarding that would be made by the 2 Chiefs and the Chief Administrative Officer.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    you know a tree could fall on your house and crush you ----------maybe you need to move to the desert. I hear theres a feller named donna in Arizona always looking for recruits, heck , I bet you could even "bunk with ? till you get settled
    A feller, eh?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Do you even get off the truck or just do a drive by and say that looks bad?
    Drive by and have the next due officer take command, of course.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is we are a rural VFD that for many years was fairly complacent regarding training and would take anyone who walked through the door, and mandated very little of them.

    New Chief. We have actually declined to offer membership to three folks in the last 2 years as they simply didn't meet his standards. We now enforce training standards which is a significant change and has led to 4 older members being told bye-bye in the last 18 months.

    They getting better, but many times they put stuff ahead of the fire department.
    I sense some sarcasm in you last statement....
    I do not think it would be right to ask a volunteer to give up everything to do the job, heck I wouldn't be much of a provider, husband, and father if I spent as much time as I would like at the firehouse. However, I do not feel that it is right to treat being a volunteer firefighter as a hobby, and expect others in my dept. to make at a gesture of faith. " Hey, we are going to learn how to rescue a victim from a below grade window tonight." "Well, but the big game is on." My eyes start to twitch at the thought.
    While I applaud the weekly training schedule it sounds like you don't demand the dedication the job requires. It all kind of turns into a vicious cycle after a while.
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