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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And you were able to go to school for 16 weeks, 40 hours or more a day, without having to worry about your "real" job.
    Hey SC,

    I can only get 24 hours out of a day. Being able to get a few more hours out of each day could really help me to get caught up with all of the stuff I need to do. How'd you manage to get 40+ hours out of a day? Is it a west coast thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    Not sure of the population, but we cover about 40 sq miles with a power plant in the first due and a LNG plant that we are 2nd due to. We run just over 2000 calls a year.

    I understand that not every place has the training opportunities that we have in Maryland. We are very fortunate. I still say in general that it's not unreasonable to expect volunteers to meet the FF1 and EMT standards. If they want to be a firefighter, they can find the time. The fact that the infrastructure isn't in place in some areas is a little bit of a different issue, but I will admit that it affects volunteers more than it would paid departments.
    My point witht the question about your population was asked to determine your mapower pool. Given that you run 2000 calls per year, it's likey that you have a pretty descent sized population, and because of that a pretty deep manpower pool. You have the luxury of being able to demand specitic training standards.

    A community of 500, 1000 or even 2000 does not have that luxury.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Hey SC,

    I can only get 24 hours out of a day. Being able to get a few more hours out of each day could really help me to get caught up with all of the stuff I need to do. How'd you manage to get 40+ hours out of a day? Is it a west coast thing?
    Ok .. 40 plus hours a week .. damn typo.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    We have a similar problem with course availability here. Most courses (except insurance company EVOC) are state-run, and free, but are limited by the amount of instructor hours the state is willing to pony up for. A single FF1 will eat up a third of the county's available hours. County leadership tries to run two FF1 a year, 20 students in each. Every now and then they are able to eke out a third. You want to have advance notice of when they'll start taking reservations, since the classes will be full by noon on the day said reservations open.

    On the other hand, "lesser" courses often have space available. Firefighter safety & survival (maybe one a year) usually fills up, as does FF2, but a few various classes have been cancelled due to lack of attendance.

    Time is usually the issue. I have one member who needs FF1, but works better than an hour away. I'm considering checking to see if he can get into a class in that county, but that still leaves him with an hour+ commute after class, and having to go to work again the next day. It's a challenge.

    We're mostly past the point where being the best firefighter one can be wasn't the goal - it was getting a beer or two when you got back from the calls. The beer is long gone, and so are most of the "social" members (I almost called them firefighters), but they were the core of many departments "back in the day" and the reason we could field 20-25 people for most incidents. Of course, most were "yard breathers" who never got closer to to actual firefighting that standing in the yard with a hose during a "surround and drown" evolution.

    When those folks joined, the sole requirement was the 39 hour "Essentials of Firemanship." Sure, there were other courses you could take, but the minimum was Essentials, and that's as far as some of them ever went.

    We've also seen a quantum shift in the nature of employment. At one time many, if not most, members worked locally - local businesses, farms, etc. The mills were running, providing lots of shift workers who could handle daytime calls. That's all gone. Most people work out of town - my hamlet is a virtual ghost-town during the day. We managed four people today for an MVA - mutual aid because the home department couldn't get a truck out the door.

    And so it goes.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point witht the question about your population was asked to determine your mapower pool. Given that you run 2000 calls per year, it's likey that you have a pretty descent sized population, and because of that a pretty deep manpower pool. You have the luxury of being able to demand specitic training standards.

    A community of 500, 1000 or even 2000 does not have that luxury.
    I understand the point, and we are fortunate to have a good mix of people, inlcluding shift workers that can cover the daytime calls. Given the area we cover though, we probably have the smallest population to draw from. Some departments close by have larger population pools to pull from, but are not as fortunate regarding staffing for various reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I beg to differ. Maybe in your area, settling for less than the best, is the norm. But that's not how it is up here. People don't want to settle, they want to be the best they can be, and if that means sacrificing a little bit of personal time to take a class or go to training, they will do it.
    And who says that they need a piece of paper saying "Firefighter I" to be thier best?

    I know of some pretty damn good firefighters that never took Firefigther I, but recieved thier training through department training and non-certification outside training, and backed it up with experience at a lot of fires.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And who says that they need a piece of paper saying "Firefighter I" to be thier best?

    I know of some pretty damn good firefighters that never took Firefigther I, but recieved thier training through department training and non-certification outside training, and backed it up with experience at a lot of fires.
    What qualifies them as pretty damn good? Your opinion?

    NJ FF1 is a pretty objective review of a FF's skills and knowledge. Opinions don't play into the mix too much. One of the first skill tests is getting properly dressed. There is a time limit. If the required gear is in place in less than the time allotted...they pass. If not....they fail. No opinion there.

    Uneducated experience at a lot of fires is a lot of uneducated experience. If you do a task wrong 1000 times...it's still wrong. Doing it 1000 times does not make it right.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    We have a similar problem with course availability here. Most courses (except insurance company EVOC) are state-run, and free, but are limited by the amount of instructor hours the state is willing to pony up for...
    Whoa, your instructors get paid? I want to move there....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ummmmmmmmmmmm... let's think...................
    Don't hurt yourself.

    Have taught at least 2 Awareness and 2 Ops classes for my VFD. I have taught 2 FFI classes for my combo department plus a FFII class. I am currently helping 2 neighboring districts teach a FFI class. Helped one of those districts teach a FFI class 2 years ago.
    Then why are you coming here and saying it's hard to get training and certification? Which is it? You're teaching classes and training your members, or the training just simply isn't feasibly available?

    And that's not even counting the 14 or 15 or so Smoke reading classes I have done for other departments throughout 4 parishes, the 8 or 9 Large Vehilce Fire Operations classes and the 3 or 4 12-hour Search and rapid Intervention classes I have done in the past 3 years for other departments, in addition to teaching every other week at my VFD and 8 or 9 times a year at my combo department.


    Nope .. Just sitting on my hands.
    [COLOR=RED]In the specific post you quoted, I didn't accuse you of sitting on your hands, I asked if you're not working to make it better, why not? (for the record, I full believe you're more or less sitting on your hands, because it's easier for you to make excuses than try to promote change.)

    Any questions?
    Not really. Sounds like more excuses and justification for your lack of action than anything.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And who says that they need a piece of paper saying "Firefighter I" to be thier best?
    Nobody is saying that. We know there are/have been/will be people in the fire service whose "best" will not be able to meet that standard and there are/have been/will be people in the fire service whose "best" far exceeds that standard.

    I know of some pretty damn good firefighters that never took Firefigther I, but recieved thier training through department training and non-certification outside training, and backed it up with experience at a lot of fires.
    I know some too, but that's irrelevant.

    FF1 certification is no more of a measure of how "good" of a firefighter one is as EMT certification is a measure of how "good" of an EMS provider a person is.

    Despite what you think, professional credentials are the norm in the real world and firefighters should be credentialed just like EMS and the PD are required to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point witht the question about your population was asked to determine your mapower pool. Given that you run 2000 calls per year, it's likey that you have a pretty descent sized population, and because of that a pretty deep manpower pool. You have the luxury of being able to demand specitic training standards.

    A community of 500, 1000 or even 2000 does not have that luxury.

    I truly feel sorry for the people in your community. If population levels like that do not have that luxury, how come I can do it with 1k poplulation, and you can't? Perhaps it is because I have a department that takes pride in the service they offer, and work hard to be the best they can be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I truly feel sorry for the people in your community. If population levels like that do not have that luxury, how come I can do it with 1k poplulation, and you can't? Perhaps it is because I have a department that takes pride in the service they offer, and work hard to be the best they can be?
    My number one department has a population of just over 700... We manage to do it too.

    My number two department has a population of just under 1100.. We manage there too...

    The community just to the North of us who mutual aids us and we mutual aid quite often has a population of right around 2000...The manage to do it too..
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Southampton County, Va has 9 fire companies protecting a population of just north of 18,500 people. The nine companies are located in small towns with populations ranging from 120 to 1300, with most being on the smaller end of the range...Courtland, the county seat, is the largest town, my home town of Boykins is next largest with 620 people. They don't seem to have any problems doing it, and all nine fire companies are very good at what they do.

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    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    What qualifies them as pretty damn good? Your opinion?

    NJ FF1 is a pretty objective review of a FF's skills and knowledge. Opinions don't play into the mix too much. One of the first skill tests is getting properly dressed. There is a time limit. If the required gear is in place in less than the time allotted...they pass. If not....they fail. No opinion there.

    Uneducated experience at a lot of fires is a lot of uneducated experience. If you do a task wrong 1000 times...it's still wrong. Doing it 1000 times does not make it right.
    If you think mandated standards work in NJ, fine.

    They would not work here. There would be tremendous loss of manpower in the rural volunteer departments. Some of the busier departments in south LA may not lose as much, but the rural departments would.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Then why are you coming here and saying it's hard to get training and certification? Which is it? You're teaching classes and training your members, or the training just simply isn't feasibly available?

    For the vast majority of the rural VFD's in the state it is very hard to get training beyond the quarterly LSU free regional training night and quite honestly alsmost impossible to get certification classes as they are not close or free. My VFD is lucky in that we have two Instructor II's and now a recently certified Instructor I who could teach them, but that is simply not the case at most rural VFDs. We have 4 volunteer members that work full-time elsewhere who bring thier experience, which is not the case at most rural VFDs. Those are advantages that very few rural VFDs have, in part because it's very difficult to find a a basic FFI class or an Instructor I class unless you are located in some very specific areas, or are close to one of only 2 LSU facilites in the state.

    We are close to an LSU facility. We now have atraining budget that is close to the entire budget for many rural VFDs. We have certified instructors and we can use the LSU burn a couple of times a year and my combo department's burn building once or twice a year. So we have many advantages that msot rural VFDs do not have.

    We are taking advantage of them and we are seeing improvements in the training of many of our members.


    In the specific post you quoted, I didn't accuse you of sitting on your hands, I asked if you're not working to make it better, why not? (for the record, I full believe you're more or less sitting on your hands, because it's easier for you to make excuses than try to promote change.)

    So how exactly am I not promoting change?

    Lobbied for and got tougher training standards at my VFD. Lobbied for funding for more outside classes at my VFD, and recieved it. Lobbied for operational changes and they were implemented?

    Just curious about not promoting change.

    I still recognize that we are significantly limited both in manpower and experience, though training is improving but still not "there", and accordingly base my expectations and operations on those limiting factors. That's called being realsitic about what you can and can't do


    Not really. Sounds like more excuses and justification for your lack of action than anything

    Lack of action on the fireground? Lack of interior operations?

    Again, I am far more hesitant to commit members interior than my Chief, Deputy Chief or Captain. They are more aggressive, and that is thier style.

    Mine is more conservative. Always has been. Always will be. When there is a reason - viable lives and property - and I have the reources to safely manage the situation, I'll go interior. If not, I won't. If you wish to call that a lack of action, have at it.

    Operational change is not a good thing unless you have the experience3and training to support it. we are getting there, but in my book, we are still not at the point where in my mind, and under my control, I can consoder ourselves a primarily interior fire department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-07-2013 at 05:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community like it was where I was in the north, and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important to the majority of the members.
    Some things can't be changed, and how the fire department fits into the lives of most of our volunteers is one of those things.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some things can't be changed, and how the fire department fits into the lives of most of our volunteers is one of those things.
    Nonsense and a defeatist attitude. So if you hold trainings EVERY week at your VFD why couldn't 2 of those nights a month be used for certification classes? You say you have inhouse instructors. Why not utilize them? Better yet, make those classes also available to a limited number of your mutual aid FDs too.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Quit your whining and excuses. I am in the extreme rural ozark mountain area. Hunting and fishing is not a hobby here, it is a way of life. We still find time to do important things. Perhaps you fail to see that YOU are the issue - not your firefighters.

    Take a defeatest attitude, and you will be defeated.

    Oh, unless your area is like no other area in the US....

    And as a by the way, what are you going to do about federal grants, when you are not trying to get all your people at least FF1? Going to just not apply?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun
    Southampton County, Va
    'Va.' That's the abbreviate for Virginia. Last I heard we were located in the South. Hunting and fishing? Try to find an male in Southampton who doesn't hunt...the first day of Deer Season's all but an official holiday.

    And yet The members of all nine companies train pretty much constantly and regularly. I'm not sure of the requirements to ride...but I'd lay a bet on FF-I. OH...and the volunteer companies I'm familiar with are very well supported by their communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    And that may be good enough for you, but it's not good enough for me. It's more excuses. Sounds like you have a bunch of self centered members who aren't concerned with anything else other than the fact that they get a cool t-shirt and a pager.

    <---Look over there. See where I live? Rural WI, WISCONSIN. Do you understand how big deer hunting is here? The damn state almost shuts down. But guess what? We had a call on OPENING DAY of deer season this year, for a guy who fell 25 feet out of his tree stand. Guess what? We pulled 4 rigs that day. Guess how many people showed up for that call? 13. Guess how many of them had come from their own deer stands to respond to the call? 9 of us, including my self.

    It doesn't sound like you have a training or certification problem. It sounds like you have a dedication and excuses problem.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    I would like to post my stats as well! County: 4200 square miles. Pop.: 6400 Primary response area: 2040 square miles. Town: 1200 people. Pretty damn rural by anyone's standards. Myself, two kids, wife, 350 cows, 2000 acres of wheat, 1200 acres of hay. By LA's way of thinking I should be on the bottom of the heap in training and responses. Nope. Most training hours and fifth in responses, granted we only run 120 fire calls a year but we don't do EMS. To be a good volunteer you have to make sacrifices sometimes, even when it is opening day. If a volunteer thinks he or she is too frigging important to make a sacrifice of personal time once in a while they probably wont amount to much in the fire service. It is gonna sound corny but I train even when it is not convenient so I can be ready when a citizen(taxpayer) or fellow brother or sister needs me to be on my A game. You guys sound like you are bringing your Z game and are pleased as heck about it. Shame on you.
    Last edited by conrad427; 05-08-2013 at 12:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nonsense and a defeatist attitude. So if you hold trainings EVERY week at your VFD why couldn't 2 of those nights a month be used for certification classes? You say you have inhouse instructors. Why not utilize them? Better yet, make those classes also available to a limited number of your mutual aid FDs too.
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    To use one of my 10K favorite movie lines:

    "Who can argue with that?"
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    The skills in certification are THE BASICS OF THE JOB!

    This has got to be one of the most assinine statements you have ever made on this forum.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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