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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    Every time I read "exterior members", I substitute "well dressed spectators", because that's exactly what they are.
    Really?

    I call them just as valuable as any interior member.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, a very different place with a very different volunteer firefighting culture.

    If certification was required to ride the rigs here most VFDs would likely have to close up shop.
    They might close up shop for a while, but after a major fire, I bet some dedicated people would emerge .you have to break eggs to make an omlette
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  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If ...... If ..... If ....

    The fact is we didn't, and most if not all of the VFDs in this part of state have a handful of interior members supported by an equal, or in some cases, greater numbers of exterior members of varying capabilities.

    You had TWO interior members there. AMA less than 4 minutes away. There is no reason in God's green Earth they couldn't have gone in and gave the fire a quick knock to see if they coud knock it down. It boiled down to nothing more than a command decision to let the fire take more control of the structure while spraying water in through windows.

    Again, is that the way i prefer it? No, but that is the way that it is. There simply is a very limited number of younger, physically capable members volunteering for the fire service. It's just not something that the vast majority of the young folks in LA want to do. There isn't, and likely never will be the draw to the volunteer fire service in this part of the south that there was in my area of the northeast, and from the sounds of it, your area of the midwest.

    Maybe if you actually saved anything people might be more intereste in belonging...

    It's just something that is not on their radar.

    Because you have no vision.

    So we operate with exterior members to support the limited number of interior members available to us. And it works, most of the time.

    Yep like letting a fire that was in one room and a hallway to destroy 2 more rooms and spread smoke and heat damage throughout the trailer. Yeah, that worked really well.

    So we do what we can do. And without those exterior members we would have had 2 members on scene until I arrived.

    And probably not lost anymore than you did. Look they do important tasks but your delusional belief that they are as valuable as interior firefighters speaks more to how messed up your perspective is than anything else.

    And yes, they made a difference in the outcome. Without them likely the entire trailer would have been lost including the stuff that was salvaged from the 2 bedrooms on the far end. The reality is the fire did enough damage to the trailer before anyone arrived that the structure would have been a loss. Due to the response time, the fire was a loss before we ever arrived, and that is the reality in most of our district.

    Another edition of the fire in the trailer story....Golly do you even know the truth? You said upon arrival the fire was in ONE ROOM AND THE HALLWAY. Now this edition says the trailer was so involved in fire that anyone inside would have been dead and the trailer was a total loss. You see this is the problem when you lie, you have to remember the lies or it is easy to see you are lying.

    If you want to sit there and say that one set of members are more valuable than another, have at it, but to me EVERY member of the department has equal value.

    And once again because you can't even remember your own damn made up bunch of Bull Schitt about this trailer fire who cares what you think the value of your standing outside firmen is? First the fire was in one room and a hallway...then the trailer was so heavily involved that it was lost before you got there. First the chief was on the exterior, spray water in the widow hoseline, then he never touched it, did a 360 and was stationary command. Dude you can't even remember your own nonsense.
    Simply so completely full of Bull Schitt as to be completely irrelevant.
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  4. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You just furthered my point. Thanks

    If you have 15 guys on your FD, 5 are interior, 7 are exterior only, and 3 are driver only, and you get 1 interior, 3 exterior, and a driver, my point is still valid.

    And without the exterior members and drivers 1 get on interior member.


    We are not driving folks who want to be interior firefighters away. We are not saying that somebody can't train to interior status. We just are not receiving applications from those who are capable as in this part of the world, unlike yours, and where I was from in the northeast, being a volunteer firefighter is something that the vast majority of the people don't want to or don't have the time to do.

    In the last 9 months we recruited 2 interior members. One was in the navy Reserve and received orders 2 months ago to ship out to Afghanistan for 18 months. the second one, unfortunately was just dismissed from the department after multiple complaints and issues regarding compatibility. we just had a female member member, who has been with us almost 2 years, go to exterior because she came to the realization that she was unable to meet the requirements of interior operations.

    So it's not like we are turning them away. There simply is little interest in the volunteer fire service overall in this part of the state. Folks see it as too time consuming.


    Apparently you are if you can "dismiss a member" who wanted to go interior for your lacking in interior firefighters. Honestly what did your command staff do to resolve these issues? Or did this person expect more than a bunch of standing outside firefighters and that ruffled feathers?

    Department 1, we cover a 1.1 square mile village, and mutual aid with our neighboring districts. 19 or 20 members on the roster now. Everyone, EVERYONE on that department, even the ones who have said they they aren't comfortable going inside are qualified to go interior, minus the two probationary members, who have been on the department for 3 months, and are in the process of going through class....

    Department 2. We cover just under 95 square miles, including the village and 4 townships. 32 members on staff. EVERYONE is interior qualified, even those that we consider our drivers... EVERYONE is interior qualified.

    If your department would adopt some damn standards that didn't cater to the wannabes, it WOULD be the rule.

    First of all, about the "wannabe's". Wannabe 1 has over 25 years in 2 volunteer departments and likely has gone to far more fires than you have, or will. He has back and cardiac issues that preclude him from interior operations but he still drives and performs limited exterior tasks. Wannabe 2 was a State Trooper who retired on disability, and again, can't operate interior because of that. He works over 80 hours a week for a gas company and responds when he is in town. Or other 2 "wannbe's" are both in their 60's and have no interest or capability to operate interior but have volunteered to drive truck and pump. One of them works for a gas drilling company and can drive any piece of equipment they own, so using him as an apparatus operator was no brainer.

    The fact is we have driven members out with increased training standards, which frankly is fine, because they simply had very limited value.

    I have already referred to the culture of volunteer firefighting that exists up north vs. the south. It simply does not, and likely never will exist here like it does there. It's simply not something people do.


    And if your FD had physicals they wouldn't even have made it that far. Why in the HELL would you even want a member with KNOWN cardiac issues?

    Yeah those training standards must really be something. "Hey BOYS! Lookie here, this is how we spray wtaer in a window!!"

    Dude, you don't want a cultural change. If guys actually wanted to fight fire you would be dismissed like a wayward school girl from charm school!


    What good are all of those exterior only members if you still burn the house down? What did you save? What did you accomplish that the DPW couldn't with a guy, some cones, and some traffic sticks to keep traffic away?

    Because they support the few interior members most departments in this area have. they pump trucks. they drive tankers. they establish water supplies. they fill command positions.

    The system works well, when we get enough interior members.

    Which apparently is never...

    The issue is that you somehow think that we are not trying to recruit interior members, or that the exterior members are taking spots that could be held by interior members, and neither one is the case.

    We have no roster limits, and yes, we take both. in fact we have a new exterior member/driver who has been on a couple of months and is working out well, and even (gasp!) taking pump operation classes. And we have a couple more starting in the next couple of weeks.


    But you dismiss them if they "Don't fit in."

    It's okay. You find burning houses down to be acceptable, I don't. You find exterior only members to be a valuable asset alone. I don't. Exterior only qualified members can be useful, absolutely. But they are no better than the manager at Walmart if you don't have anyone to actually go in and put the fire out.

    Burning houses down isn't acceptable but it's the reality. Extended response times due to a 125 mile square mile district. Limited manpower due to the fact that being a volunteer firefighter is very low on most folks priority list.

    We have a neighboring department that has a 270 square mile district that manages to save more than they lose. So what's your excuse again?

    Fact is this is typical for rural LA. And there is really very, very little that we can do to change that.


    Especially when you don't really want to.

    The biggest problem is that your laundry list of essential fire department operations constitutes of whatever it takes just to NOT burn the whole neighborhood down. Sorry, that's not good enough for me and many others.

    Well, I really don't care what you find acceptable.

    Dude that is so obvious that you don't have to say it. You are A OKAY with burning down the priginal home as long as it doesn't spread. Pathetic.

    Had a fire alarm last night. Myself, the Chief, a driver and 1 interior member. That's the way things go.


    Of course it is when you recruit and maintain memberships of people that are never around. What a frigging joke.
    Just more of your nonsense.
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  5. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, a very different place with a very different volunteer firefighting culture.

    If certification was required to ride the rigs here most VFDs would likely have to close up shop.So if 3 to 5 guys show up, can't go inside, or rather won't go inside, you destroy the majority, or all of the home, and contents in the fire and subsequent so called firefighting, do tell how they would be worse off with no FD?

    Heck the residents could do the same thing with a neighborhood cistern and a portable pump.
    You see Bobby, you keep shooting yourself in the foot almost every time you post.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    LA,

    I have been reading this thread and many others for a good while now. I FINALLY decided to join because it was driving me nuts. I know you have an ongoing feud with several of the members here, but man you are bringing this on yourself.

    You have mentioned in the past that many areas could be served as well or better by a volunteer or combination department than by a paid department. This stuff your spewing completely discredits your opinion. Your comments represent a large portion of the problems that result from having a VOLUNTEER fire dept. Your fire department (and I use that description loosely) is doing a disservice to your community. You are giving them a false sense of security that they actually have protection. The general public really doesn't know a whole lot about what we do and this could be a life safety issue in your district. If the dept. cannot provide individuals that can respond and provide all necessary functions that ALL firefighters need to provide then, IMHO, your dept needs to shut its doors! It's time to raise taxes and either hire paid staff or contact with an agency that can provide that service. If you truly cared about your citizens you would look past losing the opportunity to call yourselves "firefighters" and put their fu@%ing safety first! You say it can't be done??? Does you local Police agency just put volunteer cops on the road that decide they don't want to handle domestics and robberies? No way they don't. Volunteers can decide what they do and don't want to do because they are just that...VOLUNTEERS!
    When they decide, as a department, that they can't or won't do all the functions a paid department would do then the Parrish needs to step up and find the funding to provide some people that will.

    I, in no way, am slamming the volunteer fire service. Mainly because I am one as well as being on a career dept. But facts are facts. If people won't step up and do what needs to be done ya gotta bring in some new blood. If that means springing for some paid staff then it is what it is.

    I cannot believe that you tell this story from the same mouth (or keyboard) that you spoke about your "full time gig" hiring members. This is why! Because your full time chief is apparently smart enough to know he needs people that he can GUARANTEE will get the job done since volunteerism is so bad in LA.

    All: I apologize for the long rant but I ha to spill my guts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaBronie View Post
    LA,

    I have been reading this thread and many others for a good while now. I FINALLY decided to join because it was driving me nuts. I know you have an ongoing feud with several of the members here, but man you are bringing this on yourself.

    You have mentioned in the past that many areas could be served as well or better by a volunteer or combination department than by a paid department. This stuff your spewing completely discredits your opinion. Your comments represent a large portion of the problems that result from having a VOLUNTEER fire dept. Your fire department (and I use that description loosely) is doing a disservice to your community. You are giving them a false sense of security that they actually have protection. The general public really doesn't know a whole lot about what we do and this could be a life safety issue in your district. If the dept. cannot provide individuals that can respond and provide all necessary functions that ALL firefighters need to provide then, IMHO, your dept needs to shut its doors! It's time to raise taxes and either hire paid staff or contact with an agency that can provide that service. If you truly cared about your citizens you would look past losing the opportunity to call yourselves "firefighters" and put their fu@%ing safety first! You say it can't be done??? Does you local Police agency just put volunteer cops on the road that decide they don't want to handle domestics and robberies? No way they don't. Volunteers can decide what they do and don't want to do because they are just that...VOLUNTEERS!
    When they decide, as a department, that they can't or won't do all the functions a paid department would do then the Parrish needs to step up and find the funding to provide some people that will.

    I, in no way, am slamming the volunteer fire service. Mainly because I am one as well as being on a career dept. But facts are facts. If people won't step up and do what needs to be done ya gotta bring in some new blood. If that means springing for some paid staff then it is what it is.

    I cannot believe that you tell this story from the same mouth (or keyboard) that you spoke about your "full time gig" hiring members. This is why! Because your full time chief is apparently smart enough to know he needs people that he can GUARANTEE will get the job done since volunteerism is so bad in LA.

    All: I apologize for the long rant but I ha to spill my guts.
    Uhhh.... Welcome to the forum!
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  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaBronie View Post
    LA,

    I have been reading this thread and many others for a good while now. I FINALLY decided to join because it was driving me nuts. I know you have an ongoing feud with several of the members here, but man you are bringing this on yourself.

    You have mentioned in the past that many areas could be served as well or better by a volunteer or combination department than by a paid department. This stuff your spewing completely discredits your opinion. Your comments represent a large portion of the problems that result from having a VOLUNTEER fire dept. Your fire department (and I use that description loosely) is doing a disservice to your community. You are giving them a false sense of security that they actually have protection. The general public really doesn't know a whole lot about what we do and this could be a life safety issue in your district. If the dept. cannot provide individuals that can respond and provide all necessary functions that ALL firefighters need to provide then, IMHO, your dept needs to shut its doors! It's time to raise taxes and either hire paid staff or contact with an agency that can provide that service. If you truly cared about your citizens you would look past losing the opportunity to call yourselves "firefighters" and put their fu@%ing safety first! You say it can't be done??? Does you local Police agency just put volunteer cops on the road that decide they don't want to handle domestics and robberies? No way they don't. Volunteers can decide what they do and don't want to do because they are just that...VOLUNTEERS!
    When they decide, as a department, that they can't or won't do all the functions a paid department would do then the Parrish needs to step up and find the funding to provide some people that will.

    I, in no way, am slamming the volunteer fire service. Mainly because I am one as well as being on a career dept. But facts are facts. If people won't step up and do what needs to be done ya gotta bring in some new blood. If that means springing for some paid staff then it is what it is.

    I cannot believe that you tell this story from the same mouth (or keyboard) that you spoke about your "full time gig" hiring members. This is why! Because your full time chief is apparently smart enough to know he needs people that he can GUARANTEE will get the job done since volunteerism is so bad in LA.

    All: I apologize for the long rant but I ha to spill my guts.

    Fulltime gig ..... Budget of $1.4M w/ a descent commercial tax base and a growing residential base.

    Volunteer gig ..... Revenue $162,000 w/ 40K dedicated to reserve and capital funds. No commercial tax base of significance and no residential growth of significance. We already have the highest fire taxes in the parish, with the exception of the neighboring city, at 13 mils.

    So no, hiring paid staff is simply not an option.

    The neighboring city would likely have zero interest in covering our area as there would simply not be enough revenue to cover enough paid staffing. Likely the residents would not want as they would have to be annexed into the city to get the rating of 3. If they were not annexed and the city covered it under contract, by law, the area would now be an automatic 9 instead of the current 5.

    As far as the volunteer fire service, the department I came from in VT provided excellent coverage with volunteers as well as using an automatic mutual aid system. Of course, the community had 24,000 residents as compared to about 4,000, so the manpower pool was tiny bit deeper.

    The simple fact is this is typical for rural LA. There is minimum interest in the volunteer fire service, and in most communities, no options to pay staffing.

    As far as your other comments, we are the priority, and we do very much have the right to decide when and where we will, and will not make entry. There are times in the rural world that on arrival, it's clear that we lost the opportunity to impact the situation long before we arrived on scene, and we need to recognize that reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You see Bobby, you keep shooting yourself in the foot almost every time you post.
    In this case, the impact of the fire department was minimal. We saved a few belongings in the 2 back bedrooms, and that was about it.

    If you believe the IC should be on a handline operating interior, have at it. My chief does not, and neither do I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    I call them just as valuable as any interior member.
    Not true, is the 80 year old guy out there in the street wearing the "FIRE POLICE" hat really as valuable as the guy balls deep in a hallway taking a beating putting fire out? I THINK NOT!
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    You're current budget and/or tax rate are irrelevant to my statements. Your VFD budget is better than ours, the population is essentially the same, and as many other have said....we put FIREFIGHTERS on the rig. Departments with far smaller budgets do it as well. You ARE NOT providing an adequate service if you continue to roll the dice on how many interior certified firefighters you may or may not respond with. If you cannot provide people capable of rescuing trapped civilians then you really need to close up shop until you can. The residents in your area will realize that they will either pay substantially higher taxes (due to lack of development) or they will
    have to man up and put in the time to be a part of the organization themselves.

    Ill make it simple for you.

    Question #1

    1. What about those times when you haven't lost the opportunity to impact the situation upon arrival? Especially when that "situation" has a potential for victims to lose their lives.

    2. Does your local PD have officers that refuse to handle domestics, robberies, etc.?

    3. Is it really a good idea to rely so heavily on AMA to do what your department should be doing? (AMA is there for ADDITIONAL manpower an equipment. If they are supplying the firefighter, shouldn't THEY be the ones getting your tax money?)

    4. Does your local ambulance service have "driver only" personnel?

    5.Would that be an accepted practice if your family members needed CPR and only one person came in and the other stayed in the front yard?

    My point is that these practices are not acceptable in EMS and Law Enforcement. So what why would you or anyone else think they should be acceptable in the fire service?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fulltime gig ..... Budget of $1.4M w/ a descent commercial tax base and a growing residential base.

    Volunteer gig ..... Revenue $162,000 w/ 40K dedicated to reserve and capital funds. No commercial tax base of significance and no residential growth of significance. We already have the highest fire taxes in the parish, with the exception of the neighboring city, at 13 mils.

    $40k, FORTY-THOUSAND DOLLARS, a year, to run Department 1. That's for everything. Maintenance, trucks, equipment, everyones yearly check (POC Dept) EVERYTHING.

    Department 2 has a yearly budget of about $90k. To run everything. Sooo you're same old boring "Poor volunteer department" bullschitt is more than amusing to me.


    So no, hiring paid staff is simply not an option.

    You don't have to hire paid staff to be a respectable fire department. You just have to have people who aren't willing to accept lack luster tactics and strategies as the norm. Obviously with you around that's never going to happen.

    The neighboring city would likely have zero interest in covering our area as there would simply not be enough revenue to cover enough paid staffing. Likely the residents would not want as they would have to be annexed into the city to get the rating of 3. If they were not annexed and the city covered it under contract, by law, the area would now be an automatic 9 instead of the current 5.

    I won't touch on this, as I don't know the situation on what it would cost for the neighboring department to cover your area. My only take is I think if your community truly realized the poor level of fire coverage they were getting, they would probably spend a little more to have adequate fire protection.

    As far as the volunteer fire service, the department I came from in VT provided excellent coverage with volunteers as well as using an automatic mutual aid system. Of course, the community had 24,000 residents as compared to about 4,000, so the manpower pool was tiny bit deeper.

    Again with the pity party. Dept 1 covers the village ONLY, serving approximately 750, with one factory and a county elderly care facility in the village as well. We've been averaging 35-40 calls a year as of late, and HOLY SCHITT we still have all interior qualified members....

    The simple fact is this is typical for rural LA. There is minimum interest in the volunteer fire service, and in most communities, no options to pay staffing.

    There is no interest in the volunteer fire service because pathetic yard breathers like yourself keep the vicious cycle of failure going. No one wants to be a member of anything that has settled for something far lower than the norm.

    As far as your other comments, we are the priority, and we do very much have the right to decide when and where we will, and will not make entry.

    Yes, we know, you're better than everyone else up on your pedestal, and god forbid you break a nail trying to help someone else.

    There are times in the rural world that on arrival, it's clear that we lost the opportunity to impact the situation long before we arrived on scene, and we need to recognize that reality.

    There are times when you post, that it's clear to me that if I was on your department, there would probably be some sort of impact between your colorectal area and the asphalt as you were being escorted out the door.
    More excuses. You're whole "poor volunteers schtick" isn't gonna work on me. We operate on a far smaller budget, in a far smaller district. So you're "poor volunteer" angle isn't going to gain you any ground here.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 06-03-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In this case, the impact of the fire department was minimal. We saved a few belongings in the 2 back bedrooms, and that was about it.
    Not surprising coming from you.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In this case, the impact of the fire department was minimal. We saved a few belongings in the 2 back bedrooms, and that was about it.

    If you believe the IC should be on a handline operating interior, have at it. My chief does not, and neither do I.
    And, depending on the version of your fairy tale I choose to believe, like the original version where the fire was in ONE room and the hallway, how much more would they have potentially saved if the Chief and the interior guy has gone in and killed the fire before it spread throughout the trailer?

    Yeah Bobby, much more important to have the second interior trained guy, the chief, stand outside and command the burning down of this family's possession and their home than actually do something to save it all. But at least his command vest was filled!

    I wish I lived down there Bobby. I would follow your volly FD around with a video camera and record your pathetic performance and present it to the town board, or fire board, and ask them what the hell the $162K was buying us that giving every home owner a half a dozen fire extinguishers doesn't do. Because a homeowner with those extinguishers has a better than 50/50 chance of killing the fire in its incipient stage and if he doesn't well, then the results are the same as if your VFD shows up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCA1386 View Post
    Not true, is the 80 year old guy out there in the street wearing the "FIRE POLICE" hat really as valuable as the guy balls deep in a hallway taking a beating putting fire out? I THINK NOT!
    Every job needs to be done, and not one job is anymore important than any other.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Not surprising coming from you.
    In this case, there was a minimum amount of belongings saved and the structure is a total.

    So yes, in this case, our impact on the situation overall was minimal.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    I call them just as valuable as any interior member.
    Unless they're all you have on scene, and the inside guys need the outside guys to go inside and help them get out alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Unless they're all you have on scene, and the inside guys need the outside guys to go inside and help them get out alive.
    DING! DING! DING!

    Folks we have a winner!!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  19. #699
    Forum Member paetsHFD6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Every job needs to be done, and not one job is anymore important than any other.
    So the job of standing out in the street directing traffic at the fire is JUST as important as the jobs of actually putting the fire out and rescuing victims??

  20. #700
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paetsHFD6 View Post
    So the job of standing out in the street directing traffic at the fire is JUST as important as the jobs of actually putting the fire out and rescuing victims??
    Dude he seriously believes that.

    I agree with him that every job needs to get done. But the truth that the rest of us know is that with limited manpower you delete directing traffic and focus on fighting the fire and saving lives. Not the other way around.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-03-2013 at 03:06 PM.
    Jasper 45 and Chenzo like this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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