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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    You can't possibly proofread what you post, let alone take yourself seriously when you post absolutely bovine scat like this...
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    I'm in for 15 pages or more. These always get interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    LA, and anyone else in LA's position as far as training and certification, are any of you working to change this? Are you striving to make training and certification more accessible to your members? Or are you sitting on your hands saying woe is me and doing nothing to fix it?

    If you're sitting on your hands, why? Why aren't you working to make things better for you, your members, your department, and most importantly, your community?


    Before I joined my current volunteer department there was a training issue. Members had the mentality that they have been doing things this way for years, there is no need to change. With new members joining most members have come to realize that training is needed at a state/national level as well as in house training. We are in the middle of setting a minimum training requirement for everything.

    In our area we are offered classes through Bucks County Community College Public Safety Department. They host classes in every county, almost non stop through out the year. We also have Luzerne County Community College that does training year round, and a local association that has training grounds.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    Nah, you are right. Better to use them for a sewing circle. Maybe a circle jerk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You can't possibly proofread what you post, let alone take yourself seriously when you post absolutely bovine scat like this...
    My point being is that I am not going to tie up a training night talking about the cognitive material that folks would need to know for certification testing unless it is directly related and applicable to our operation(s). Our training time is far too limited and valuable for that.

    Will I incorporate relevant cognitive material that a member might find on a certification test if it has relevance to our operations and the training topic being discussed? Sure, and we often do. Will I incorporate material that may be needed for certification when teaching manipulative skills if it's relevant to our operations? Again, we do all the time.

    However to sit there and simply teach a class for certification that has no relevance to the operation or to a majority of the members attending training (i.e Instructor, Officer, etc.) is simply time that we do not have the time for.

    If somebody wants to attend a certification related class, they are available in this area.That is the place for certification-related materials unless it has direct relevance to the operation.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-08-2013 at 04:32 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Nah, you are right. Better to use them for a sewing circle. Maybe a circle jerk.
    Training nights are for operational training.

    If somebody is concerned about certification, that can be taught at other scheduled times.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    <---Look over there. See where I live? Rural WI, WISCONSIN. Do you understand how big deer hunting is here? The damn state almost shuts down. But guess what? We had a call on OPENING DAY of deer season this year, for a guy who fell 25 feet out of his tree stand. Guess what? We pulled 4 rigs that day. Guess how many people showed up for that call? 13. Guess how many of them had come from their own deer stands to respond to the call? 9 of us, including my self.
    Not to threadjack, but the answer may be more interesting than this month's entry of flay LA..

    What do you do with your firearm if responding from a tree stand?
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The skills in certification are THE BASICS OF THE JOB!

    This has got to be one of the most assinine statements you have ever made on this forum.
    Some of the skills in certification are the basics of the job.

    There are many skills in FFI/FFII that the members in both my combination and volunteer districts will never use.

    Training simply for certification is assinine.

    I believe in training for the operations your department will conduct and always will.

    If a member is concerned about certification ... That is why we send them to certification classes.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point being is that I am not going to tie up a training night talking about the cognitive material that folks would need to know for certification testing unless it is directly related and applicable to our operation(s). Our training time is far too limited and valuable for that.

    Will I incorporate relevant cognitive material that a member might find on a certification test if it has relevance to our operations and the training topic being discussed? Sure, and we often do. Will I incorporate material that may be needed for certification when teaching manipulative skills if it's relevant to our operations? Again, we do all the time.

    However to sit there and simply teach a class for certification that has no relevance to the operation or to a majority of the members attending training (i.e Instructor, Officer, etc.) is simply time that we do not have the time for.

    If somebody wants to attend a certification related class, they are available in this area.That is the place for certification-related materials unless it has direct relevance to the operation.
    How can you one minute be whining about training not being available and then say the reason you won't do cert classes inhouse on training nights is because training is available.

    Again, do you even read your own nonsense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some of the skills in certification are the basics of the job.

    There are many skills in FFI/FFII that the members in both my combination and volunteer districts will never use.

    Training simply for certification is assinine.

    I believe in training for the operations your department will conduct and always will.

    If a member is concerned about certification ... That is why we send them to certification classes.
    I'm almost scared to ask...but, pray tell, La, what basics of firefighting do you guys not use????

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Not to threadjack, but the answer may be more interesting than this month's entry of flay LA..

    What do you do with your firearm if responding from a tree stand?
    Climb down from the tree stand. Unload the rifle. Head back to the car. Case the rifle. Go to the call leaving the cased rifle in the locked vehicle.

    You see up here in "da nort woods" it is not an uncommon occurence, any time, not just for deer hunting, to be carrying a rifle, or other firearm in your car. There is target shooting, trap shooting, duck hunting, small game hunting and whatever going on year round.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How can you one minute be whining about training not being available and then say the reason you won't do cert classes inhouse on training nights is because training is available.

    Again, do you even read your own nonsense?
    The question is do you read my posts?

    I'll say this again .. MY VFD does have opportunities to attend some certification training. We border Camp Minden which houses the LSU FETI facility for the northern part of the state. That being said, most of our members cannot attend the M-F trainings because of work, but when it's offered at night, it's an option for our members.

    That being said, that is not an option for most of the VFDs in the state. Certification training is not offered statewide very often on a regional basis, and when it is, it's often a M-F 8-5 deal.

    You are the one that seems hung up on certification.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun View Post
    I'm almost scared to ask...but, pray tell, La, what basics of firefighting do you guys not use????
    Quite a bit has little operational relevance in my VFD.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Not to threadjack, but the answer may be more interesting than this month's entry of flay LA..

    What do you do with your firearm if responding from a tree stand?
    I had my hunting rifle, and my sidearm with me that day.

    Firstly, let me say that in WI, you can have a long gun uncased in your vehicle AS LONG as it's unloaded.
    You can have a loaded handgun in your vehicle. If you have a concealed carry permit, it doesn't have to be visible, if you don't have a CCW permit, you're handgun must be visible without obstruction from observation outside of the vehicle.

    Back to the original question. I got out of my stand, walked to my truck, unloaded my rifle and put the magazine and the +1 round in my coat pocket, and the rifle in the back seat.

    I took the belt that my pistol was on off, put the pistol in my lockbox and locked in. Then I drove to the call.

    When I got to the station, I locked my truck, and took the magazine for my rifle inside with me, and when I took my hunting boots off, I put the mag and bullet in there, and went on the call.

    Sorry, I'm sure you were looking for a more interesting answer, but I had all of this thought out and planned beforehand, so it was simple.

    As for everyone else, I know the other guy I was on the truck with left his gun with his dad in their stand, and one of the other guys I talked to said he cased and locked his gun before he left. So to me it's sounds like I wasn't the only one who had something planned out ahead of time.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quite a bit has little operational relevance in my VFD.
    Straight from the syllabus of my Firefighter I class that I took several years ago, which allowed me to become State of WI AND IFSAC certified:

    Lesson 1: Firefighter Orientation
    Mission of the fire service, Organizational principles, Unity of Command, Span of Control, Division of Labor, Discipline, General Requirements (NFPA, Departmental Req's, etc) Difference between policy and procedure, difference between order and directive, Fire ground Priorities, NIMS, and Situation Status Reports.

    Lesson 2: SCBA

    Lesson 3 and Lesson 4: Ropes and Knots

    Lesson 5: Water Supply

    Lesson 6: Forcible Entry

    Lesson 7: Fire Streams and Hoses

    Lesson 8: Salvage and Overhaul, Fire Cause Determination, Fire Prevention and Public Education

    Lesson 9: Fire Department Communications

    Lesson 10: Fire Control (Wildland and Confined Space) and Ventilation

    Lesson 11: Sprinkler Systems

    You're right, I can TOTALLY see how ANY of that doesn't apply to you and your department........
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Straight from the syllabus of my Firefighter I class that I took several years ago, which allowed me to become State of WI AND IFSAC certified:

    Lesson 1: Firefighter Orientation
    Mission of the fire service, Organizational principles, Unity of Command, Span of Control, Division of Labor, Discipline, General Requirements (NFPA, Departmental Req's, etc) Difference between policy and procedure, difference between order and directive, Fire ground Priorities, NIMS, and Situation Status Reports.

    Lesson 2: SCBA

    Lesson 3 and Lesson 4: Ropes and Knots

    Lesson 5: Water Supply

    Lesson 6: Forcible Entry

    Lesson 7: Fire Streams and Hoses

    Lesson 8: Salvage and Overhaul, Fire Cause Determination, Fire Prevention and Public Education

    Lesson 9: Fire Department Communications

    Lesson 10: Fire Control (Wildland and Confined Space) and Ventilation

    Lesson 11: Sprinkler Systems

    You're right, I can TOTALLY see how ANY of that doesn't apply to you and your department........
    Some of the chapters, such as safety, ICS, fire behavior, fire streams and fire hose and SCBA, are quite applicable, and in fact, we cover all or most of them in rookie class.

    Others, such as building construction and fire attack and mostly applicable, and we use the material either during rookie class or during weekly training.

    Others, such as forcible entry apply but we cover in much less detail due to the fact we don't own most of the tools, and have a limited number of the forcible entry issues talked about in the chapter.

    And some of them, like sprinklers, have very little application in our district as we do not have any systems.

    So yes, some of it applies, and it's built into either the rookie class or on-going weekly training. And some of it does not apply, and there is no operational need to train on it simply to achieve certification.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some of the chapters, such as safety, ICS, fire behavior, fire streams and fire hose and SCBA, are quite applicable, and in fact, we cover all or most of them in rookie class.

    Others, such as building construction and fire attack and mostly applicable, and we use the material either during rookie class or during weekly training.

    Others, such as forcible entry apply but we cover in much less detail due to the fact we don't own most of the tools, and have a limited number of the forcible entry issues talked about in the chapter.

    And some of them, like sprinklers, have very little application in our district as we do not have any systems.

    So yes, some of it applies, and it's built into either the rookie class or on-going weekly training. And some of it does not apply, and there is no operational need to train on it simply to achieve certification.
    You posted "Quite a bit has little operational relevance in my VFD." just 3 posts earlier to this one and based on what you just wrote here it would seem that a lot of it actually has operational relevance for your department.

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    Posted by Bobby..
    The question is do you read my posts?
    Your postings contradict, convolute and confuse anyone reading them. You have flip flopped more than a catfish on a dock in a "Looziana" bayou.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You posted "Quite a bit has little operational relevance in my VFD." just 3 posts earlier to this one and based on what you just wrote here it would seem that a lot of it actually has operational relevance for your department.
    EXACTLY!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some of the chapters, such as safety, ICS, fire behavior, fire streams and fire hose and SCBA, are quite applicable, and in fact, we cover all or most of them in rookie class.

    Others, such as building construction and fire attack and mostly applicable, and we use the material either during rookie class or during weekly training.

    Others, such as forcible entry apply but we cover in much less detail due to the fact we don't own most of the tools, and have a limited number of the forcible entry issues talked about in the chapter.
    We spent ONE 3 hour class period talking about forcible entry. Seeing as most of the departments (read as 9 out of 10) that were represented in my class didn't have forcible entry tools beyond the norm such as a flat head and a halligan, we didn't spend a whole lot of time on specialized forcible entry tools, like the A or K tools. See, when you have instructors who know how to teach, and have experience, they can teach based off the needs of the class, not just read what ever is handed to them.

    And some of them, like sprinklers, have very little application in our district as we do not have any systems.
    That I can accept. While I don't believe that's good reasoning, as residential sprinkler systems are becoming more and more popular, I can still begrudgingly accept that.

    So yes, some of it applies, and it's built into either the rookie class or on-going weekly training. And some of it does not apply, and there is no operational need to train on it simply to achieve certification.
    Sounds like most of it applies to me. Based on what you said, 10 out of 11 lessons apply actually....
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-08-2013 at 09:00 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some of the skills in certification are the basics of the job.
    Pretty much all of the skills in FF1 are basic skills for firefighting.

    There are many skills in FFI/FFII that the members in both my combination and volunteer districts will never use.
    So what?

    Training simply for certification is assinine.
    If by this you mean learning just enough to scrape by on the certification test and then forgetting what you learned then, yes, that would be asinine. However, training in order to prepare for certification testing and future use is exactly what one should be doing.

    I believe in training for the operations your department will conduct and always will.
    So does everybody else on here. We just happen to also think that firefighters should be certified as firefighters.

    If a member is concerned about certification ... That is why we send them to certification classes.
    The member shouldn't be the driver for certification, it should be the department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Sounds like most of it applies to me. Based on what you said, 10 out of 11 lessons apply actually....
    Varying parts of 10 of the 11 chapters apply.

    No the entire chapter.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Pretty much all of the skills in FF1 are basic skills for firefighting

    Disagree. How much applies depends on the community, and the equipment and resources of the fire department.

    So what?

    So why should we train on skills we'll never use?

    To me training for certification alone is not a valid reason unless the student(s) has chosen that hey want to pursue certification.


    If by this you mean learning just enough to scrape by on the certification test and then forgetting what you learned then, yes, that would be asinine. However, training in order to prepare for certification testing and future use is exactly what one should be doing.

    Assuming that you believe that certification is necessary to do the job.

    I don't. Certification should be the choice of the member.


    So does everybody else on here. We just happen to also think that firefighters should be certified as firefighters.

    And I don't believe certification is necessary. Likely never will.

    The member shouldn't be the driver for certification, it should be the department.
    Disagree. It's the member's time, not the fire department's.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Varying parts of 10 of the 11 chapters apply.

    No the entire chapter.
    So, 10 minutes of each chapter doesn't apply to your department and it's operations....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    So, 10 minutes of each chapter doesn't apply to your department and it's operations....
    In some cases, more.

    The fact is the members need to be trained on what's applicable to our operations. How much of that applies from FFI or FFII depends on the chapter and topic.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In some cases, more.

    The fact is the members need to be trained on what's applicable to our operations. How much of that applies from FFI or FFII depends on the chapter and topic.
    It's amazing how many FDs in my area REQUIRE FF1 and some FF2 to be an active member of the FD. Funny part is they still do inhouse training. You seem to be saying it is one or the other ONLY, unless a firefighter makes a push ON THEIR OWN to want to be certified. Frankly, you disbelief in the validity of certification makes me wonder why anyone, or any fire department, would even ask you to teach those classes.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-08-2013 at 10:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is the members need to be trained on what's applicable to our operations.
    The way you talk on here, your department might as well not train on anything. Go close down the roadway while the real firefighters get the job done and you stand around with your thumb up your ***.

    I can not believe the way you talk on here. I'm a young firefighter to most of the people on here (Only 23 years old), and usually I look up to the older vets for advice on things so I can pass it down when it's my time. You talk down on everything the fire service stands for. I have junior firefighters in my department with more balls than you. Here is a little picture for you.

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