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Thread: Hey LA! This one's for you!

  1. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point witht the question about your population was asked to determine your mapower pool. Given that you run 2000 calls per year, it's likey that you have a pretty descent sized population, and because of that a pretty deep manpower pool. You have the luxury of being able to demand specitic training standards.

    A community of 500, 1000 or even 2000 does not have that luxury.

    I truly feel sorry for the people in your community. If population levels like that do not have that luxury, how come I can do it with 1k poplulation, and you can't? Perhaps it is because I have a department that takes pride in the service they offer, and work hard to be the best they can be?


  2. #62
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I truly feel sorry for the people in your community. If population levels like that do not have that luxury, how come I can do it with 1k poplulation, and you can't? Perhaps it is because I have a department that takes pride in the service they offer, and work hard to be the best they can be?
    My number one department has a population of just over 700... We manage to do it too.

    My number two department has a population of just under 1100.. We manage there too...

    The community just to the North of us who mutual aids us and we mutual aid quite often has a population of right around 2000...The manage to do it too..
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Southampton County, Va has 9 fire companies protecting a population of just north of 18,500 people. The nine companies are located in small towns with populations ranging from 120 to 1300, with most being on the smaller end of the range...Courtland, the county seat, is the largest town, my home town of Boykins is next largest with 620 people. They don't seem to have any problems doing it, and all nine fire companies are very good at what they do.

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    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    What qualifies them as pretty damn good? Your opinion?

    NJ FF1 is a pretty objective review of a FF's skills and knowledge. Opinions don't play into the mix too much. One of the first skill tests is getting properly dressed. There is a time limit. If the required gear is in place in less than the time allotted...they pass. If not....they fail. No opinion there.

    Uneducated experience at a lot of fires is a lot of uneducated experience. If you do a task wrong 1000 times...it's still wrong. Doing it 1000 times does not make it right.
    If you think mandated standards work in NJ, fine.

    They would not work here. There would be tremendous loss of manpower in the rural volunteer departments. Some of the busier departments in south LA may not lose as much, but the rural departments would.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #66
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    Then why are you coming here and saying it's hard to get training and certification? Which is it? You're teaching classes and training your members, or the training just simply isn't feasibly available?

    For the vast majority of the rural VFD's in the state it is very hard to get training beyond the quarterly LSU free regional training night and quite honestly alsmost impossible to get certification classes as they are not close or free. My VFD is lucky in that we have two Instructor II's and now a recently certified Instructor I who could teach them, but that is simply not the case at most rural VFDs. We have 4 volunteer members that work full-time elsewhere who bring thier experience, which is not the case at most rural VFDs. Those are advantages that very few rural VFDs have, in part because it's very difficult to find a a basic FFI class or an Instructor I class unless you are located in some very specific areas, or are close to one of only 2 LSU facilites in the state.

    We are close to an LSU facility. We now have atraining budget that is close to the entire budget for many rural VFDs. We have certified instructors and we can use the LSU burn a couple of times a year and my combo department's burn building once or twice a year. So we have many advantages that msot rural VFDs do not have.

    We are taking advantage of them and we are seeing improvements in the training of many of our members.


    In the specific post you quoted, I didn't accuse you of sitting on your hands, I asked if you're not working to make it better, why not? (for the record, I full believe you're more or less sitting on your hands, because it's easier for you to make excuses than try to promote change.)

    So how exactly am I not promoting change?

    Lobbied for and got tougher training standards at my VFD. Lobbied for funding for more outside classes at my VFD, and recieved it. Lobbied for operational changes and they were implemented?

    Just curious about not promoting change.

    I still recognize that we are significantly limited both in manpower and experience, though training is improving but still not "there", and accordingly base my expectations and operations on those limiting factors. That's called being realsitic about what you can and can't do


    Not really. Sounds like more excuses and justification for your lack of action than anything

    Lack of action on the fireground? Lack of interior operations?

    Again, I am far more hesitant to commit members interior than my Chief, Deputy Chief or Captain. They are more aggressive, and that is thier style.

    Mine is more conservative. Always has been. Always will be. When there is a reason - viable lives and property - and I have the reources to safely manage the situation, I'll go interior. If not, I won't. If you wish to call that a lack of action, have at it.

    Operational change is not a good thing unless you have the experience3and training to support it. we are getting there, but in my book, we are still not at the point where in my mind, and under my control, I can consoder ourselves a primarily interior fire department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-07-2013 at 04:57 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community like it was where I was in the north, and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important to the majority of the members.
    Some things can't be changed, and how the fire department fits into the lives of most of our volunteers is one of those things.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #68
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Some things can't be changed, and how the fire department fits into the lives of most of our volunteers is one of those things.
    Nonsense and a defeatist attitude. So if you hold trainings EVERY week at your VFD why couldn't 2 of those nights a month be used for certification classes? You say you have inhouse instructors. Why not utilize them? Better yet, make those classes also available to a limited number of your mutual aid FDs too.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #69
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Quit your whining and excuses. I am in the extreme rural ozark mountain area. Hunting and fishing is not a hobby here, it is a way of life. We still find time to do important things. Perhaps you fail to see that YOU are the issue - not your firefighters.

    Take a defeatest attitude, and you will be defeated.

    Oh, unless your area is like no other area in the US....

    And as a by the way, what are you going to do about federal grants, when you are not trying to get all your people at least FF1? Going to just not apply?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great. I'm happy for you.

    There is very little culture of volunteer firefigthing in the south, or at least this part of the south.It's not something that a big part of the community and there is a limited generational traditon of firefighting, unlike the north.

    It's very much a struggle for a community to get members of the community to become volunteer firefighters.

    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun
    Southampton County, Va
    'Va.' That's the abbreviate for Virginia. Last I heard we were located in the South. Hunting and fishing? Try to find an male in Southampton who doesn't hunt...the first day of Deer Season's all but an official holiday.

    And yet The members of all nine companies train pretty much constantly and regularly. I'm not sure of the requirements to ride...but I'd lay a bet on FF-I. OH...and the volunteer companies I'm familiar with are very well supported by their communities.

  11. #71
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is not the tradition of giving up a whole bunch of hunting and fishing time to come to fire training. Sure, they will likely come to weekly training, but giving up weekenights other than that and weekends wjhen they can be hunting, fishing, or just being on the lake ..... Naaaaaa. It's not the it's not im portant, but it's simply not THAT important.
    And that may be good enough for you, but it's not good enough for me. It's more excuses. Sounds like you have a bunch of self centered members who aren't concerned with anything else other than the fact that they get a cool t-shirt and a pager.

    <---Look over there. See where I live? Rural WI, WISCONSIN. Do you understand how big deer hunting is here? The damn state almost shuts down. But guess what? We had a call on OPENING DAY of deer season this year, for a guy who fell 25 feet out of his tree stand. Guess what? We pulled 4 rigs that day. Guess how many people showed up for that call? 13. Guess how many of them had come from their own deer stands to respond to the call? 9 of us, including my self.

    It doesn't sound like you have a training or certification problem. It sounds like you have a dedication and excuses problem.
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  12. #72
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    I would like to post my stats as well! County: 4200 square miles. Pop.: 6400 Primary response area: 2040 square miles. Town: 1200 people. Pretty damn rural by anyone's standards. Myself, two kids, wife, 350 cows, 2000 acres of wheat, 1200 acres of hay. By LA's way of thinking I should be on the bottom of the heap in training and responses. Nope. Most training hours and fifth in responses, granted we only run 120 fire calls a year but we don't do EMS. To be a good volunteer you have to make sacrifices sometimes, even when it is opening day. If a volunteer thinks he or she is too frigging important to make a sacrifice of personal time once in a while they probably wont amount to much in the fire service. It is gonna sound corny but I train even when it is not convenient so I can be ready when a citizen(taxpayer) or fellow brother or sister needs me to be on my A game. You guys sound like you are bringing your Z game and are pleased as heck about it. Shame on you.
    Last edited by conrad427; 05-07-2013 at 11:12 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nonsense and a defeatist attitude. So if you hold trainings EVERY week at your VFD why couldn't 2 of those nights a month be used for certification classes? You say you have inhouse instructors. Why not utilize them? Better yet, make those classes also available to a limited number of your mutual aid FDs too.
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #74
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    To use one of my 10K favorite movie lines:

    "Who can argue with that?"
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    The skills in certification are THE BASICS OF THE JOB!

    This has got to be one of the most assinine statements you have ever made on this forum.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  16. #76
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    You can't possibly proofread what you post, let alone take yourself seriously when you post absolutely bovine scat like this...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  17. #77
    Forum Member RyanK63's Avatar
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    I'm in for 15 pages or more. These always get interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    LA, and anyone else in LA's position as far as training and certification, are any of you working to change this? Are you striving to make training and certification more accessible to your members? Or are you sitting on your hands saying woe is me and doing nothing to fix it?

    If you're sitting on your hands, why? Why aren't you working to make things better for you, your members, your department, and most importantly, your community?


    Before I joined my current volunteer department there was a training issue. Members had the mentality that they have been doing things this way for years, there is no need to change. With new members joining most members have come to realize that training is needed at a state/national level as well as in house training. We are in the middle of setting a minimum training requirement for everything.

    In our area we are offered classes through Bucks County Community College Public Safety Department. They host classes in every county, almost non stop through out the year. We also have Luzerne County Community College that does training year round, and a local association that has training grounds.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of our classes have material that can be used toward certification.

    That being said, it doesn't make much sense to use training nights to teach towards certification.
    Nah, you are right. Better to use them for a sewing circle. Maybe a circle jerk.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You can't possibly proofread what you post, let alone take yourself seriously when you post absolutely bovine scat like this...
    My point being is that I am not going to tie up a training night talking about the cognitive material that folks would need to know for certification testing unless it is directly related and applicable to our operation(s). Our training time is far too limited and valuable for that.

    Will I incorporate relevant cognitive material that a member might find on a certification test if it has relevance to our operations and the training topic being discussed? Sure, and we often do. Will I incorporate material that may be needed for certification when teaching manipulative skills if it's relevant to our operations? Again, we do all the time.

    However to sit there and simply teach a class for certification that has no relevance to the operation or to a majority of the members attending training (i.e Instructor, Officer, etc.) is simply time that we do not have the time for.

    If somebody wants to attend a certification related class, they are available in this area.That is the place for certification-related materials unless it has direct relevance to the operation.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-08-2013 at 03:32 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Nah, you are right. Better to use them for a sewing circle. Maybe a circle jerk.
    Training nights are for operational training.

    If somebody is concerned about certification, that can be taught at other scheduled times.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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