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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryank63 View Post
    the way you talk on here, your department might as well not train on anything. Go close down the roadway while the real firefighters get the job done and you stand around with your thumb up your ***.

    I can not believe the way you talk on here. I'm a young firefighter to most of the people on here (only 23 years old), and usually i look up to the older vets for advice on things so i can pass it down when it's my time. You talk down on everything the fire service stands for. I have junior firefighters in my department with more balls than you. Here is a little picture for you.

    Attachment 22870
    Amen, Brother. Amen.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    So again LAFE, I ask - are you going to no longer apply for any of the Assistance to Firefighters grant series, as they specifically ask what your plans are for getting your people up to state or NFPA standards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Pretty much all of the skills in FF1 are basic skills for firefighting

    Disagree. How much applies depends on the community, and the equipment and resources of the fire department.
    You disagree because you're not talking about the same thing.

    Skills are essentially either "basic", "intermediate" or "advanced". The fact that a particular skill in FF1 is not applicable to a specific community or a fire department lacks a specific piece of equipment necessary to perform a specific skill doesn't make it an "intermediate" or "advanced" skill.

    So what?

    So why should we train on skills we'll never use?

    To me training for certification alone is not a valid reason unless the student(s) has chosen that hey want to pursue certification.


    If by this you mean learning just enough to scrape by on the certification test and then forgetting what you learned then, yes, that would be asinine. However, training in order to prepare for certification testing and future use is exactly what one should be doing.

    Assuming that you believe that certification is necessary to do the job.

    I don't. Certification should be the choice of the member.
    OK, there's two ways to go with this. 1) If certification is a legal requirement to do a job, then certification is absolutely necessary. 2) If certification is not a legal requirement to do a job, then it's certainly possible that a person could be capable of doing the job without possessing the actual certification.

    Certification as a firefighter should not be a choice, it should be a requirement just like PD and EMS.

    So does everybody else on here. We just happen to also think that firefighters should be certified as firefighters.

    And I don't believe certification is necessary. Likely never will.
    Yes, we know.

    The member shouldn't be the driver for certification, it should be the department.

    Disagree. It's the member's time, not the fire department's.
    Most VFDs want to be viewed as "professionals". Professionals have credentials (i.e. certification, licensure, degrees, etc.). As such, the VFD should want their personnel to be certified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    So again LAFE, I ask - are you going to no longer apply for any of the Assistance to Firefighters grant series, as they specifically ask what your plans are for getting your people up to state or NFPA standards?
    Funny thing is that both my combo department and volunteer department's minimum standards exceed the state standards.

    So we're good, thanks.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that both my combo department and volunteer department's minimum standards exceed the state standards.

    So we're good, thanks.
    Then why are you whining about training and experience being the reason you can't make interior attacks? If your departmental standards are so high, why can't you do the job and fight fire?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that both my combo department and volunteer department's minimum standards exceed the state standards.

    So we're good, thanks.
    It would seem that isn't hard to do, and very little to brag about, when you live in a state with absolutely no standards for volunteer firefighters.
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    I don't have the time to tech certification material, simply for the sake of certification, during the limited weekly training nights I have at my VFD. I need to spend that time teaching and training on operational topics and materials. Yes, given 45 training nights a year, it is one area- operations.

    We have discussed my feelings on certification before. I fully support every member choosing to become certified in whatever they wish. I encourage it. And my combo departments rewards it (my VFD is working on a reward system to be implemented soon).

    The simple fact is though that as a rookie class in a rural VFD FFI/FFII does not do a very good job and is not an efficient use of their time. The class is simply too generalized and contains info that they don't need. And there are topics where there needs to be far more material.

    As a secondary class after the rookie class completed, it has purpose and has significant value for those looking to promote or take on additional responsibility in the rural fire service.

    Funny thing s I'm taking another cert test next week ... And this one will likely never garner incentive pay at my FT gig.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-09-2013 at 01:15 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't have the time to tech certification material, simply for the sake of certification, during the limited weekly training nights I have at my VFD. I need to spend that time teaching and training on operational topics and materials. Yes, given 45 training nights a year, it is one area- operations.
    More Excuses

    We have discussed my feelings on certification before. I fully support every member choosing to become certified in whatever they wish. I encourage it. And my combo departments rewards it (my VFD is working on a reward system to be implemented soon).
    You support it as long as it doesn't interfere with your little "gig" of being part of training right? God forbid they learn something from someone else first

    The simple fact is though that as a rookie class in a rural VFD FFI/FFII does not do a very good job and is not an efficient use of their time. The class is simply too generalized and contains info that they don't need. And there are topics where there needs to be far more material.
    Disagree, again. I don't know what caliber instructors you have in LA, (wait, you're an instructor aren't you?) but up here, if you bring an instructor in to your department to teach, you're not going to get a "generalized" class. They're going to go over YOUR rigs, talk about YOUR response area, talk about what YOUR SOG's are, etc. As I said before, if you have an instructor that actually knows what they are talking about, and can TEACH and not just READ the course material, it won't be a generalized class.

    As a secondary class after the rookie class completed, it has purpose and has significant value for those looking to promote or take on additional responsibility in the rural fire service.
    Disagree, agree. I posted the course syllabus for FFI. Seems like pretty BASIC firefighting operations to me...

    Funny thing s I'm taking another cert test next week ... And this one will likely never garner incentive pay at my FT gig.
    Good for you. Want a cookie?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Sorry, I'm sure you were looking for a more interesting answer, but I had all of this thought out and planned beforehand, so it was simple.
    Nope.. what you (both) said makes sense. I know the transportation laws are much better up there then here in the PRNJ. I also know my department has a policy of no firearms on the premises that would be problematic in the situation you describe.
    So you call this your free country
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Nope.. what you (both) said makes sense. I know the transportation laws are much better up there then here in the PRNJ. I also know my department has a policy of no firearms on the premises that would be problematic in the situation you describe.
    Yeah I understand that not all states are as firearm friendly as Wisconsin, so I do have that going for me when it comes to hunting season and the fire department.

    To be perfectly honest with you, if my department had a policy about firearms on the premise, or transporting wasn't as easy as it was, I would just take my case out to my stand with me and lock it up out there if I had a fire call.

    EDIT: I see you're in New Jersey... As far as gun laws are concerned, I can see where you're question came from. What what I understand NJ isn't exactly a pro-gun state. From what I understand, they aren't anti-gun, but there are more hoops to jump through, such as a firearms purchaser ID card for long guns, a pistol purchase permit that's only good for what 90 days, and if you haven't gotten your pistol in that 90 days it expires and you have to reapply, and they are a "may-issue" CCW state and they lean more to won't issue than will issue. (As far as I understand it from talking to some gun owners from NJ)
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-09-2013 at 02:54 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    What I don't get is saying you might never use the information so you should not have to learn it. Would that be the same as saying that your town does not have a four way stop or street lights so you tell the driving examiner you should not have to learn about that stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    What I don't get is saying you might never use the information so you should not have to learn it. Would that be the same as saying that your town does not have a four way stop or street lights so you tell the driving examiner you should not have to learn about that stuff?
    Ah conrad... Logic.... You haven't realized that logic and LA simply cannot exist in the same sentence? lol
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    What I don't get is saying you might never use the information so you should not have to learn it. Would that be the same as saying that your town does not have a four way stop or street lights so you tell the driving examiner you should not have to learn about that stuff?
    At the rookie level ..... Yes.

    I want my rookies to know how to do the job with my tools and equipment in my community. After they master the ability to perform those skills, I'll worry about training them to think outside of MY COMMUNITY'S box.

    I do believe that rookie training should be department-specific.

    In a rural community, I see FFI as a generalized course which should follow department-specific rookie training.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that both my combo department and volunteer department's minimum standards exceed the state standards.

    So we're good, thanks.
    No weedhopper - if no state standards, one must abide by NFPA standards to be eligible for FEMA grant funding.

    I ask again, what are you going to do about grants?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    At the rookie level ..... Yes.

    I want my rookies to know how to do the job with my tools and equipment in my community. After they master the ability to perform those skills, I'll worry about training them to think outside of MY COMMUNITY'S box.

    I do believe that rookie training should be department-specific.

    In a rural community, I see FFI as a generalized course which should follow department-specific rookie training.
    A good instructor will come in and teach the course curriculum, as well as catering to the needs of your department. They will ask and talk about your rigs, tools, operations, and response area.

    But that doesn't fit with your agenda, so I see why you've overlooked this point 4 or 5 times now.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    A good instructor will come in and teach the course curriculum, as well as catering to the needs of your department. They will ask and talk about your rigs, tools, operations, and response area.

    But that doesn't fit with your agenda, so I see why you've overlooked this point 4 or 5 times now.
    Problem is they still have to know the FFI stuff for testing purposes, so now that instructor must discuss the FFI stuff PLUS your department-specific stuff which equals more time in class.

    Again ... FFI not time-efficant for rookie training.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't have the time to tech certification material, simply for the sake of certification, during the limited weekly training nights I have at my VFD. I need to spend that time teaching and training on operational topics and materials. Yes, given 45 training nights a year, it is one area- operations.

    Nonsense and more excuses about something you DON'T want to do.

    We have discussed my feelings on certification before. I fully support every member choosing to become certified in whatever they wish. I encourage it. And my combo departments rewards it (my VFD is working on a reward system to be implemented soon).

    As long as you don't actually have to do a damn thing.

    The simple fact is though that as a rookie class in a rural VFD FFI/FFII does not do a very good job and is not an efficient use of their time. The class is simply too generalized and contains info that they don't need. And there are topics where there needs to be far more material.

    IT DOESN'T HAVE TO REPLACE YOUR INHOUSE ROOKIE SCHOOL. God man you are as dense as a block of lead. In fact while my career FD REQUIRES FF1 in order to get hired they still run new recruits through a rookie school. So if my career FD sees the need to add some finishing touches to new recruits with FF1 why is that so damn hard for you to do.

    As a secondary class after the rookie class completed, it has purpose and has significant value for those looking to promote or take on additional responsibility in the rural fire service.

    THEN TEACH IT.

    Funny thing s I'm taking another cert test next week ... And this one will likely never garner incentive pay at my FT gig.

    LMMFAO! Thanks for proving once again it is ALL about money for you. If it wasn't you wouldn't of had to mention this little tid bit.
    More scatological nonsense from you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Problem is they still have to know the FFI stuff for testing purposes, so now that instructor must discuss the FFI stuff PLUS your department-specific stuff which equals more time in class.

    Nonsense...pure unadulterated nonsense.

    Again ... FFI not time-efficant for rookie training.
    Blah blah blah, more excuses and nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Problem is they still have to know the FFI stuff for testing purposes, so now that instructor must discuss the FFI stuff PLUS your department-specific stuff which equals more time in class.

    Again ... FFI not time-efficant for rookie training.
    A completely opposite mind-set from what we have here. We view FF1 as the basics, fundamentals. Those skills and knowledge are the foundation that all future training is based on, including in-house training. Even the MFRI instructors tell us that you are expected to leave and learn your department specific SOPs. For example, you may not get the chance to pull your particular cross-lay setup in class, or use a HUMAT. Those types of things are expected to be taught at the station.

    Having grown up with that mindset, I just can't imagine not having that foundation to build on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing s I'm taking another cert test next week ... And this one will likely never garner incentive pay at my FT gig.
    That is funny. Especially considering that you have no intention of ever putting it to use.
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Problem is they still have to know the FFI stuff for testing purposes, so now that instructor must discuss the FFI stuff PLUS your department-specific stuff which equals more time in class.

    Again ... FFI not time-efficant for rookie training.
    YOU'RE KILLING ME, BOBBY...

    FF1-2 is the culmination of the career recruit, ie., probie/rookie/FNG training at the Massachhusetts Fire Academy as well as the Academy's Call/Volunteer program.

    PS; the word is efficient, not efficant; and you call yourself an "educator"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    YOU'RE KILLING ME, BOBBY...

    FF1-2 is the culmination of the career recruit, ie., probie/rookie/FNG training at the Massachhusetts Fire Academy as well as the Academy's Call/Volunteer program.

    PS; the word is efficient, not efficant; and you call yourself an "educator"...
    As I have stated numerous times, FF1 has become the minimum training requirement in MOST volly/POC FDs in my area. FF2 is becoming the minimum in several now. Add to that, Driver/Operator and Officer 1 if you are seeking promotion in many departments.

    Chief, I have asked Bobby numerous times what college he went to and he refuses to say. I think he may be embarassed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Chief, I have asked Bobby numerous times what college he went to and he refuses to say. I think he may be embarassed.
    Hamburger University

    http://tinyurl.com/LAFEcollege
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    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As I have stated numerous times, FF1 has become the minimum training requirement in MOST volly/POC FDs in my area. FF2 is becoming the minimum in several now. Add to that, Driver/Operator and Officer 1 if you are seeking promotion in many departments.

    Chief, I have asked Bobby numerous times what college he went to and he refuses to say. I think he may be embarassed.
    Not the case here. i don't know of a VFD or combination department in this part of the state that requires FFI for it's volunteer members.

    Again, where there is a need for the material and the depth of the class, I'll support it, but there simply is no such need in either on of my departments.

    I attended a small state run college in northeastern Vermont. I'm not embarassed, but I'm not going to give you the answer either. if you'tre really that interested, find the answer. I'll tell you if you're right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Hamburger University

    http://tinyurl.com/LAFEcollege
    Actually I did attend hamburger university, when I was working as a manager for McDonalds. Very cool place.

    There could be a lot of valauble lessons for the fire service there.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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