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Thread: Governor's Island NIST, UL, FDNY Study: MUST SEE

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    Exclamation Governor's Island NIST, UL, FDNY Study: MUST SEE

    NIST, UL, and the FDNY, unveiled some of their results from the Gorvernor's Island studies at this years FDIC. If you weren't able to make it, you can watch the presentation at the link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=jGEgr9877J4

    The results and the experiments are pretty amazing, this is the future of the fire service, tactics based on science.

    For those of you who have seen the results, what are your thoughts?

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    I know this is an old thread, but the topic is new to me. I am trying to find the Data results with very little luck. The Link you posted is no longer valid. My biggest question concerns the life safety of occupants trapped in the building. Some of the experiments have us making an exterior attack before entry. While any time you put water on a fire its a good thing, what happens to the unprotected people inside, and how are they affected?

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    Nist has a lot oh good fire burn data

    Depending on the building,,, If they are not out by the time you get there they are not coming out


    http://www.nist.gov



    http://www.nist.gov/fire/fwdgi.cfm



    http://www.nist.gov/search-results.c...efrom=&dateto=

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Nist has a lot oh good fire burn data

    Depending on the building,,, If they are not out by the time you get there they are not coming out
    That's such an oversimplification that it does a disservice to even be posted. Depending on what's burning, where it's burning, where the victims are, points of ingress, structural conditions, the actual capability of the arriving units, etc, etc....

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    Yes it is simplified

    But how should the question be answered

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    1. Does anyone here have experience with an exterior attack before interior attack?
    How do you implement that tactic, and do you only use it when you can see flames?

    2.Through my training, I've been told time and again that we push fire with our attack, but the NIST, and a few other articles I have read say that you can't push fire with water. I don't have enough experience on it way or the other, but I do know that a fog moves a lot of air. The guys in my house say that you definitely can push fire, but they have no explanation. Can you push fire with a straight stream, or only with a fog? Does implementing an exterior attack prior to an interior one cause fire spread that could otherwise have been contained?

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    one problem is fire dynamics is not always taught

    free training online:::

    http://www.cfitrainer.net/Training_P...velopment.aspx

    https://www.cfitrainer.net/Training_..._Modeling.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Nist has a lot oh good fire burn data

    Depending on the building,,, If they are not out by the time you get there they are not coming out


    http://www.nist.gov



    http://www.nist.gov/fire/fwdgi.cfm



    http://www.nist.gov/search-results.c...efrom=&dateto=
    I agree that at some fires in some buildings they are not getting out. But there's only one way to know. Get in there and search aggressively. Use flowpath control (VEIS) and/or go in behind line if necessary. There could be people in rooms with closed doors who have a chance at survival. The NIST tests proved this to be true.

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    In the Firefighter Nation article the author starts by listing three ways we can "push" fire. He then explains how the test results absolutely refuted that fire can be pushed. A little confusing, at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke10 View Post
    1. Does anyone here have experience with an exterior attack before interior attack?
    How do you implement that tactic, and do you only use it when you can see flames?

    2.Through my training, I've been told time and again that we push fire with our attack, but the NIST, and a few other articles I have read say that you can't push fire with water. I don't have enough experience on it way or the other, but I do know that a fog moves a lot of air. The guys in my house say that you definitely can push fire, but they have no explanation. Can you push fire with a straight stream, or only with a fog? Does implementing an exterior attack prior to an interior one cause fire spread that could otherwise have been contained?
    Fire attack (water application) does not cause fire spread. Water makes things better, period. The tests proved it over and over again. Steam can be pushed ahead of the line. While this could conceivably be problematic for victims, it is not an example of "pushing" fire. Any victim in an area adjacent to the fire area and not isolated behind a door is in a world of trouble already. Rapid cooling of the area and rapid victim removal gives them the best chance for survival.

    The "guys in your house" need to get up to speed. The fire ground has changed and it is not all that recent that it has happened.

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    If you watch the videos of the transitional attack, which clearly state a straight or smoothbore stream directed at a steep angle onto the ceiling, that is not moved, this will NOT push heat or steam into the structure. The point of keeping the stream stationary is to allow the rest of the window space to allow for venting of heat and steam from the room out of the same window the stream is directed into. In one video it showed a smoothbore stream being directed into the window and moved rapidly around in that window space. This did not allow venting out that window and in fact forced heat and steam into the building and out the first floor door.

    We tried a transitional attack at a house we were burning down and with just 5to10seconds of water application we dropped the temperature in the room over 300 degrees.

    I could not possibly disagree more with fire49's comment. Unless fire is blowing out of every orifice of a building there is always a chance we will find survivors in a fire building.
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    """"""" My biggest question concerns the life safety of occupants trapped in the building. Some of the experiments have us making an exterior attack before entry. While any time you put water on a fire its a good thing, what happens to the unprotected people inside, and how are they affected?"""


    The question has to many variables to give a good answer

    You could have a one room motel room and if the person is medicated they could have inhaled enough smoke to kill them before the fire goes through the windows

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    """"""" My biggest question concerns the life safety of occupants trapped in the building. Some of the experiments have us making an exterior attack before entry. While any time you put water on a fire its a good thing, what happens to the unprotected people inside, and how are they affected?"""
    Anytime you can drop the temp by several hundred degrees, it is a good thing both for anyone trapped and the firefighters that will be soon making entry.

    The transitional attack works both in the studies and in the real world. It has to have buy in by your firefighters, you can't just show them a video and tell them this is a new tool in your tool box. It is like anything else you have to show them/us that it works and that takes hands on training.

    Building construction has changed and we have to change our tactics to keep up or we will get more firefighters hurt/killed and become the best foundation savers in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Anytime you can drop the temp by several hundred degrees, it is a good thing both for anyone trapped and the firefighters that will be soon making entry.

    The transitional attack works both in the studies and in the real world. It has to have buy in by your firefighters, you can't just show them a video and tell them this is a new tool in your tool box. It is like anything else you have to show them/us that it works and that takes hands on training.

    Building construction has changed and we have to change our tactics to keep up or we will get more firefighters hurt/killed and become the best foundation savers in the area.
    You are correct. Buy in, with demonstrations to prove the tactic works, is critical. Firefighters are some of the most resistant to change people I have ever met.
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    Thanks Guys. Lots of great sites and information. @FyredUp The trapped heat and gasses escaping through the window the stream is directed into isn't discussed very much. That explanation makes a lot of sense. I don't know about changing everyone's mind, but I figure If I can fully understand how to use all the tools at my disposal, It might save my life or someone else's someday.

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    Fire dynamics


    A good thing to do us watch a fire develop

    Entrainment


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipW_0NV2-EI

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Nist has a lot oh good fire burn data

    Depending on the building,,, If they are not out by the time you get there they are not coming out
    That would mean that no firefighter has ever made a save. BS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    That would mean that no firefighter has ever made a save. BS!
    I guess it could be read like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post

    A good thing to do us watch a fire develop
    This.

    When we were running a local academy we started asking some firefighter I/II students to describe in detail how a fire involves a room from starting in a wastepaper basket to total involvement and were somewhat dismayed at many of their answers. So much so we talked of requiring an essay as part of the course final exam. It was sad how little they really understood about basic fire behavior. It's hard to then convince those with very little actual knowledge of the topic to re-think some of the actual tactics they employ as what they've done in evolutions (and in actual fires) was cemented in and the book stuff was glossed over. It's time to start ensuring that student understand the why, not just the how.

    Firefighting is part science, part art. The fire is scientific, if you know all the variables you can easily stop the reaction. The art (skill?) is what you do when you don't know all the variables (99% of the time). Thus those who ignore the science are bound to run out of luck and those who treat every fire algorithmically will be a few steps behind almost every time.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 08-11-2014 at 07:07 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words
    fire49 likes this.

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    No visible flames seen





    Three People Found Dead in Texas Mobile Home

    Mike Glenn
    Houston Chronicle
    Created: August 14, 2014

    A small fire smouldered, and released carbon monoxide, Klein Chief David Bessolo said.
    Aug. 14--Authorities said three people were found dead Wednesday night inside a mobile home in north Harris County.

    According to preliminary information, the bodies were discovered about 7:30 p.m. Wednesday in a trailer along the 8500 block of Scotch Pine Place in Tomball.

    David Bessolo, chief of the Klein Volunteer Fire Department, said a neighbor came to check on the people living in the trailer and spotted what appeared at first to be a cardiac arrest victim.

    Officials called to the scene suspect a small fire smoldered inside the trailer, releasing clouds of poisonous carbon monoxide gas. The fire was found in a back bedroom, Bessolo said.

    Bessolo said the high levels of carbon monoxide in the home "were seven times what we consider the 'danger zone,' " Bessolo said.

    A sheriff's deputy said the first officers at the scene noticed a strong odor and backed away, fearing the trailer might be a drug lab. They called for a Harris County hazardous-materials team, which went in and determined that wasn't the case.

    The firefighters found two men and a woman dead inside the trailer. A third man was taken to an area hospital and was in stable condition later Wednesday, Bessolo said.

    The victims' identities have not been released.

    The Harris County Fire Marshal's Office is investigating. Foul play is not thought to have played a part in the deaths, Harris County sheriff's officials said.

    Neighbors said the people in the trailer have been in the community for about two or three years and generally kept to themselves. They didn't recall any past instances where police were at the scene.
    Late Wednesday, firefighters were ventilating the trailer so the Harris County Fire Marshal's Office could conduct an investigation.

    Copyright 2014 - Houston Chronicle

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    No visible flames seen





    Three People Found Dead in Texas Mobile Home

    Mike Glenn
    Houston Chronicle
    Created: August 14, 2014

    A small fire smouldered, and released carbon monoxide, Klein Chief David Bessolo said.
    Aug. 14--Authorities said three people were found dead Wednesday night inside a mobile home in north Harris County.

    According to preliminary information, the bodies were discovered about 7:30 p.m. Wednesday in a trailer along the 8500 block of Scotch Pine Place in Tomball.

    David Bessolo, chief of the Klein Volunteer Fire Department, said a neighbor came to check on the people living in the trailer and spotted what appeared at first to be a cardiac arrest victim.

    Officials called to the scene suspect a small fire smoldered inside the trailer, releasing clouds of poisonous carbon monoxide gas. The fire was found in a back bedroom, Bessolo said.

    Bessolo said the high levels of carbon monoxide in the home "were seven times what we consider the 'danger zone,' " Bessolo said.

    A sheriff's deputy said the first officers at the scene noticed a strong odor and backed away, fearing the trailer might be a drug lab. They called for a Harris County hazardous-materials team, which went in and determined that wasn't the case.

    The firefighters found two men and a woman dead inside the trailer. A third man was taken to an area hospital and was in stable condition later Wednesday, Bessolo said.

    The victims' identities have not been released.

    The Harris County Fire Marshal's Office is investigating. Foul play is not thought to have played a part in the deaths, Harris County sheriff's officials said.

    Neighbors said the people in the trailer have been in the community for about two or three years and generally kept to themselves. They didn't recall any past instances where police were at the scene.
    Late Wednesday, firefighters were ventilating the trailer so the Harris County Fire Marshal's Office could conduct an investigation.

    Copyright 2014 - Houston Chronicle
    Interesting story, but I am curious as to the relevance to the OP's topic.
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    was kind of wondering about that too.

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    I guess if it is meant as an attempt to discredit flow path research it is kind of feeble. Seriously, how many here can count more than one, if any at all, instances where a small fire in a residence smoldered, then smothered itself, killing everyone inside?

    That is hardly the same as having firefighters on scene trying to reduce the amount of oxygen entering a building while they rapidly enter, extinguish the fire, and remove victims. Or make a quick hit from the outside, using PROPER transitional attack methods, to knock the fire back and cool the interior before entering to extinguish the fire and rescue victims.

    My belief is the great majority speaking out against flow path control, and the new transitional attack have neither viewed any of the videos, read any of the studies, or attempted either one in practice burn sessions.

    Maybe we should go back to buckets...firefighters are some of the most resistant to change people I have ever met.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I guess if it is meant as an attempt to discredit flow path research it is kind of feeble. Seriously, how many here can count more than one, if any at all, instances where a small fire in a residence smoldered, then smothered itself, killing everyone inside?

    That is hardly the same as having firefighters on scene trying to reduce the amount of oxygen entering a building while they rapidly enter, extinguish the fire, and remove victims. Or make a quick hit from the outside, using PROPER transitional attack methods, to knock the fire back and cool the interior before entering to extinguish the fire and rescue victims.

    My belief is the great majority speaking out against flow path control, and the new transitional attack have neither viewed any of the videos, read any of the studies, or attempted either one in practice burn sessions.

    Maybe we should go back to buckets...firefighters are some of the most resistant to change people I have ever met.
    Leather or Tupperware buckets?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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