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Thread: Good job for one line

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    Default Good job for one line

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Eth985dmM


    I thought he was going to lose it for a minute there, way to stay with it
    Last edited by L-Webb; 05-21-2013 at 02:17 AM.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Huh, I guess our expectations must be different? I'll elaborate more later, I'm interested in what others (some others) think.

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    If "they" will speak..

    From what I read about the call they were the only two there at that time, tried to hit it from outside when that wasn't working they went agressive and knocked it down.

    Seems like a good choice to me.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Tell us what you think. Why wait to see what others say?

    I think anyone would be hardpressed to find fault with what this crew did considering conditions encountered and the apparent lack of staffing.

    Before anyone chimes in about pushing fire, they should do some research on the recent NIST and UL tests that dispel that myth. Applying water to fire reduces temperature and burn rate in immediate fire area and throughout the structure.

    I don't believe they went interior because exterior wasn't working. I believe it was part of a transitional attack.

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    The only thing that I might have done differently is try to get up the stairs sooner. Otherwise I don't disagree with their tactics here.

    The one thing that may have made a greater difference would have been a higher flow line. To me short staffed situations like this call for a medium sized handline capable of flowing 200 gpm or more. Yes, you won't be advancing when doing that with 2 guys with the nozzle wide open but you can pin hit gate back move up pin hit again. My preference would be either a smoothbore or a low pressure combo nozzle.
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    OK, now I have some time, here goes. I guess my expectation would be to see that line up those stairs and working the fire area from the inside, upon arrival. It appeared the nozzleman spent a few minutes combating flame tongues at the eave line, maybe due to seeing this take possession of the roof in the past, but the volume of fire inside lead me to believe the fire was already up or heading there via the ceiling. The bystander outside noted he couldn't say if everyone was out, while we wouldn't trust him saying they were, this at least would confirm I was sending my crew as aggressive as safely possible. Again that would have been up the stairs, who knows maybe an occupant is right near the egress path? Hitting the fire from below at that gpm was not going to knock it down without breaking it up room to room. Maybe backing up a little and trying to get the stream further back might have helped? I still would have liked to have started at the top of the stairs.

    And what was the helmet cam guys' function, it appeared he did very little until the finally went up the stairs and maybe he put one hand on the line? The POV may have skewed our ability to see his function?

    Upon scrolling down on the YouTube page it sounds as if Fresno has had many company closures and are hard-fast on the two in/two out, thus without known rescues, they wait until other personnel arrive before getting in. Hard for me to find fault with that when you are slashed to the bare bones, at some point you have to say, this is the difference in how we protect your lives-property and ours when you reduce the number of personnel arriving quickly.

    I'm interested to know what people think of fighting the fire from the door at the top of the stairs before the second company arrives. From that position you can hopefully hit the seat better, control the means of egress and stop the fire from escaping the apartment/compartment. You have the safety of an exterior set of stairs, the fire is at or above your level allowing for an easy retreat out of the IDLH. You can see that once they made the top of the stairs, the fire quickly darkened, likely due to them breaking the problem up into smaller pieces (rooms).

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    As Fyred said, no problems with their tactics, I would have tried to get up the stair sooner, and at least hit it from the doorway. What I don't know is how far behind they expected the next units to be. Also, I think it's Fyred that runs 2" lines on everything. The extra flow without losing much mobility would be nice here.

    RFDAC, I like the idea of hitting it from the doorway while waiting for the second company. You can get a better shot at the seat of the fire and probably knock down the bulk of the fire in that main room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post

    I'm interested to know what people think of fighting the fire from the door at the top of the stairs before the second company arrives. From that position you can hopefully hit the seat better, control the means of egress and stop the fire from escaping the apartment/compartment. You have the safety of an exterior set of stairs, the fire is at or above your level allowing for an easy retreat out of the IDLH. You can see that once they made the top of the stairs, the fire quickly darkened, likely due to them breaking the problem up into smaller pieces (rooms).
    I'm 100% for this. I kept waiting for them to hit the steps sooner; you noticed there was considerable fire at the top of the landing when they finally left the window and headed up, and some of it remained in the rear left apartment after initial knockdown.

    I know what UL and everybody else has said about pushing fire. It's probably at least partly accurate, but I also know this: We all agree that hydraulic ventilation forces heat and smoke out of a space during overhaul, so why wouldn't it force heat and smoke through a space during attack?

    Yes, the fire that the stream hits goes out, but the flow of heat that the fire has established can be upset if the line contradicts it. That means that what had been the "damper" of your house fire has become the "flue" because you've reversed the current of the "chimney".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    As Fyred said, no problems with their tactics, I would have tried to get up the stair sooner, and at least hit it from the doorway. What I don't know is how far behind they expected the next units to be. Also, I think it's Fyred that runs 2" lines on everything. The extra flow without losing much mobility would be nice here.

    RFDAC, I like the idea of hitting it from the doorway while waiting for the second company. You can get a better shot at the seat of the fire and probably knock down the bulk of the fire in that main room.
    We do use 2 inch and frankly with that much fire I would have dumped the combo nozzle and gone right to the 1 1/4 slug and blasted it with 300 gpm. I would have tried to make the stairs quicker and pinned the line at the door and hit it again with 300 gpm. Because the crew in this picture were using an automaitc nozzle it is difficult to know what they were flowing. Perhaps the 200 gpm out of our combo tip would have killed the fire, I don't know, but I do know being able to go to 300 gpm without switching lines is a definite plus.
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    Hydraulic ventilation is done post control. The fire dynamic has totally changed by this point. Because the fire is out. There is much much less heat energy in an area that is being hydraulically overhauled than there is in an actively burning fire area. Hydraulic venting is done with a fog line. I believe all interior attack lines should be straight stream, especially any stream used in transitional attack.

    As far as "the flow of heat that the fire has established", it too gets cooler when water is applied. Once we knock down the fire the damper vs flue scenario should be a moot point.

    Some have mentioned hitting the seat of the fire. For interior firefighting it is totally unnecessary to hit the seat of the fire. Just getting water into fire area cools the immediate fire area and surrounding areas. This slows the active burning of contents w/o actually hitting seat.

    This fire could very well have burned into the attic space much more easily via exterior than interior (unless ceiling or wall coverings had been previously compromised). If fire had gotten into an open uncompartmented attic space the entire building could have been lost. So if a second hoseline was not immediately forthcoming, protecting the attic space from exterior would satisfy basic rules of line placement (locate fire, protect exposures, confine fire, extinguish fire; in that order)

    I agree that it would be necessary to send someone up the stairs initially as part of size-up process. There could very well (as was mentioned) be occupants near to door that could be saved. This may have been done; we just don't know. If there was a team available to search (sounds like there wasn't) and size-up indicated possible occupants, the line would be better placed at entrance to protect search.

    I also agree that any department that is lacking resources should at least consider whether they are using the best size hose and nozzles. If you're only goona have one line, make it the most efficient one you can get.

    It comes down to staffing, resources and response times. The IC, which may be a company officer, has to deploy resources based on size-up and must do so consistent with safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Hydraulic ventilation is done post control. The fire dynamic has totally changed by this point. Because the fire is out. There is much much less heat energy in an area that is being hydraulically overhauled than there is in an actively burning fire area. Hydraulic venting is done with a fog line. I believe all interior attack lines should be straight stream, especially any stream used in transitional attack.

    Actually, not ALL hydraulic venting is done when the fire is out. Sometimes it is done when the fire is knocked down to clear the smoke and heat out of a room to allow the crew to finish final extinguishment. Further hydraulic venting, while not as effective, can be done with a smoothbore nozzle that is only opened about half way creating a wider broken stream. Does it work? Yes, I have done it myself.

    I am not sure what point you are trying to make other than any obvious one that says there is less heat when the fire is out.


    As far as "the flow of heat that the fire has established", it too gets cooler when water is applied. Once we knock down the fire the damper vs flue scenario should be a moot point.

    Actually, initially it can appear to be hotter, at least for the crew, if they are in the fire room or area if water is applied incorrectly or in the wrong form, especially if venting has occurred. This is because of steam conversion. Generally this happens if a "protective" fog pattern is used. All it does it turn into steam and drop that right down on the attack crew.

    Some have mentioned hitting the seat of the fire. For interior firefighting it is totally unnecessary to hit the seat of the fire. Just getting water into fire area cools the immediate fire area and surrounding areas. This slows the active burning of contents w/o actually hitting seat.

    It may slow the burning but if you NEVER apply water to the seat of the fire the odds of extinguishing it are pretty slim. Unless you have a sealed compartment and intend on closing the door after water application to allow for steam conversion to smother the fire. Many years ago we did the idiotic crawl into the room, hold the hose line back 18 inches from the nozzle and apply a wide fog into the upper atmosphere of the fire room. Rarely, if ever did it extinguish the fire. After venting we usually found the original fre burning merrily away right where it started.

    Frankly, hitting the base of the fire solves most of the problems caused by the fire. Using an up down, all around type of attack and sweeping the entire room, including the base of the fire, cools the entire room as well as hitting the base of the fire.


    This fire could very well have burned into the attic space much more easily via exterior than interior (unless ceiling or wall coverings had been previously compromised). If fire had gotten into an open uncompartmented attic space the entire building could have been lost. So if a second hoseline was not immediately forthcoming, protecting the attic space from exterior would satisfy basic rules of line placement (locate fire, protect exposures, confine fire, extinguish fire; in that order)

    No one here said not to make an intitial hit to knock down the fire lapping onto the roof from under the eaves, or not to hit the fire inside the apartment from the windows. But it was clear that the main body of fire was not going to be extinguished from the ground. Frankly, I would have applied water to the edge of the roof, flowed water into the apartment through the window to gauge the effect, and if I wasn't killing the fire doing that I would have killed the fire in the open area by the stairway and gone up to the apartment door to effect fire attack from there.

    I agree that it would be necessary to send someone up the stairs initially as part of size-up process. There could very well (as was mentioned) be occupants near to door that could be saved. This may have been done; we just don't know. If there was a team available to search (sounds like there wasn't) and size-up indicated possible occupants, the line would be better placed at entrance to protect search.

    There is no way, initially anyways, anyone could have made those stairs without a hoseline. That entire landing was involved in fire. To me the faster the line made it to that doorway, and put water in the room directly on the fire instead of indirectly from the ground, the faster this fire would have gone out.

    I also agree that any department that is lacking resources should at least consider whether they are using the best size hose and nozzles. If you're only goona have one line, make it the most efficient one you can get.

    Which is why my #1 POC FD chose 2 inch. Start with 1 3/4 inchflows with the capability of 2 1/2 inch flows without having to pull that 2 1/2. The heavy hit fowing 300 gpms kills a ton of fire in a hurry.

    It comes down to staffing, resources and response times. The IC, which may be a company officer, has to deploy resources based on size-up and must do so consistent with safety.

    I don't necessarily disagree. But here we had a by stander tell the crew someone might still be in there. To me that means we push a little harder to get to the door. We would do it as safe as possible, but the delay could mean the difference between life and death of an occupant.
    Because I am used to working short handed, atleast initially, we have built our tactics and equipment around that knowledge.
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    FyredUp,
    Regarding hydraulic venting, my point was in response to EastKYFF who felt that if we could "push" heat and smoke thru an opening during overhaul, then we could probably push fire during fire attack. I was just pointing out the difference between the two.

    My assumption is that any attack crew would be in full PPE (bunker gear, hoods, helmets, gloves, SCBA). If steam is a problem for these members, they are using their equipment improperly.

    I didn't mean to indicate that the seat of fire would never be hit. Some had posted that initially operating from exterior at front door would allow seat of fire to be hit. I just meant to indicate that the initial attack from exterior did not have to hit seat of fire.

    You stated you would have hit the edge of the roof, then flowed water through window, and then if that didn't work you would hit the fire by the stairs and go to attack fire from doorway. You later stated that your preference would be to get to the stairway a fast as possible. You can't have it both ways with only one handline.

    I missed the point about the bystander telling them someone "might" be inside. Although I don't put a lot of faith in bystanders at multiple dwelling fires (unless they live in affected apartment ), I agree that it changes everything about line placement. The initial line would have to be brought up the stairs to protect search, regardless of staffing level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    FyredUp,
    Regarding hydraulic venting, my point was in response to EastKYFF who felt that if we could "push" heat and smoke thru an opening during overhaul, then we could probably push fire during fire attack. I was just pointing out the difference between the two.
    The point is that the air and water currents of a hoseline can move heat. We know that because we know that hydraulic ventilation works.

    Hydraulic ventilation is intended to move heat and smoke out of a space. Spraying water in the window (exterior attack) instead of out the window (hydraulic ventilation) will push cool air into the room, which forces the hot air to go somewhere else, possibly an uninvolved area.

    Sure, the damper/flue issue is moot once the fire is knocked down. I'm talking about at the moment of initiating an exterior attack. You don't spray water in a vertical vent hole with a handline or ladder pipe, so if the fire is venting horizontally through a window, applying a stream through the opening would have a similar negative effect.
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    You are still making the mistake of comparing hydraulic overhauling to fire extinguishment. They are two entirely different things with the big difference being the amount of heat present. While an operating handline may cause some air movement, it will not push fire into uninvolved areas. The application of water cools both the immediate fire area and adjacent areas. NIST has done tests where they tried to "push fire" and could not do it. (These were done in real buildings with real contents.) Temperatures dropped from floor to ceiling in all areas of the structure including the floor above and rooms behind closed doors. It was tried with stream from outside into window and from inside the building at entrance door to apartment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    FyredUp,
    Regarding hydraulic venting, my point was in response to EastKYFF who felt that if we could "push" heat and smoke thru an opening during overhaul, then we could probably push fire during fire attack. I was just pointing out the difference between the two.

    I won't debate this topic with you, but I will say I disagree that fire can't be pushed by a hose stream.

    My assumption is that any attack crew would be in full PPE (bunker gear, hoods, helmets, gloves, SCBA). If steam is a problem for these members, they are using their equipment improperly.

    Nonsense. Pure, unadulterated, nonsense. Steam will penetrate through hoods, gloves, and turn out gear. How do I know? I received steam burns on my ears though my hood and ear flaps. I will guarantee that I had all my gear on properly.

    I didn't mean to indicate that the seat of fire would never be hit. Some had posted that initially operating from exterior at front door would allow seat of fire to be hit. I just meant to indicate that the initial attack from exterior did not have to hit seat of fire.

    The problem with not hitting the base of the fire is you will never extinguish the fire until you get to the base. The fire will continue to rebuild itself when you move the stream to a different location.

    You stated you would have hit the edge of the roof, then flowed water through window, and then if that didn't work you would hit the fire by the stairs and go to attack fire from doorway. You later stated that your preference would be to get to the stairway a fast as possible. You can't have it both ways with only one handline.

    Actually, yes I can. I never said that even if I initially hit that fire at the roof edge or through the window that I still couldn't make a faster attempt at the stairway. There is no way that that fire will ever be extinguished from the ground through the window. My point was to sweep the attic, try for a knockdown through the window and then move up the stairs extinguishing fire as you move up the stairs. Then move to the doorway and affect extinguishment by attacking the fire through the doorway and advancing into the room. To me staying on the ground and spraying water through the window is a waste of time and water if the fire doesn't darken down rather quickly.

    I missed the point about the bystander telling them someone "might" be inside. Although I don't put a lot of faith in bystanders at multiple dwelling fires (unless they live in affected apartment ), I agree that it changes everything about line placement. The initial line would have to be brought up the stairs to protect search, regardless of staffing level.

    I am not necessarily saying that the info is always correct but it is initially all we have to go on.
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    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-23-2013 at 10:10 AM. Reason: typos
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    In my experience steam burns thru hood are rare. Are you sure it was steam and not heat generated by the fire itself?
    Also, any chance your hood was wet when you got burned?
    PS Please don't be insulted by these questions. Just trying to know exactly what happened to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    In my experience steam burns thru hood are rare. Are you sure it was steam and not heat generated by the fire itself?
    Also, any chance your hood was wet when you got burned?
    PS Please don't be insulted by these questions. Just trying to know exactly what happened to you.
    I am not only believe it was a steam burn, I am 100% positive it was a steam burn.

    Here is the incident where I was burned. I was leading crew into the burn tower for fire attack and I had given the nozzle man detailed instructions. I told him to follow me into the burn room, and using a straight stream to BRIEFLY sweep the ceiling and then hit the base of the fire and then shut down the nozzle. Well, I headed into the room, he stopped at the doorway and with the nozzle on wide fog proceeded to open the nozzle and flow the stream at the ceiling. I got him to shut it down, change the pattern back to a straight stream and come into the room. Where he flopped onto his back, changed the pattern back to wide fog, grabbed the line about a foot back from the nozzle and started whipping the nozzle around towards the ceiling. I got him to shut down the nozzle and pushed him and the rest of the crew out of the burn room before they got burned. I wasn't so lucky, by the time I had gotten out of the room all the steam, and black nasty at the ceiling was down on the floor and I was enveloped in it.

    The tops of both of my ears were severely blistered and the skin sloughed of the lobes on both ears. I had my hood on, my collar up and my ear flaps down. If it had been a heat only injury why were only my ears burned? I have no doubt it was a steam injury.

    Just to ease your mind regarding your worrying about insulting me...You don't know enough about me to begin to think you can insult me and frankly I don't know you from adam. Anytime you want my experience and training credentials just let me know.
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    I went out of my way to indicate that I wasn't trying to attack or insult you, yet you appear to have been insulted anyway. I'm not sure why.
    It is not necessary to present your experience or training credentials. The fact that you were fairly seriously burned while acting as an instructor at a training session tells me plenty about your experience and credentials, or lack thereof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    The fact that you were fairly seriously burned while acting as an instructor at a training session tells me plenty about your experience and credentials, or lack thereof.
    I can see from your post count that you're new here. Would you like me to fetch you some aloe before, or after you get your *** burned for this insult?
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    Back on the Video..

    I agree that perhaps they spent too long fighting it from the ground before going up the stairs.. but not an egregiously so. There were areas they were able to darken from the ground that they couldn't have hit from the entrance, like the back bedroom. They went back over the windows a few times when they probably could have advanced up the stairs.. but again, meh.

    My one concern is those types of apartments is the covered breezeway.. they don't always have firestops. A fire as well off as this one has probably taken the attic above the apartment and if there is no separation the breezeway could be compromised. Can't become complacent just because it's "outside".

    It looked like the FF with the camera was primarily looking for extension and fire movement while they were outside.. he checked the adjacent apartment (white smoke showing) on the right and the apartment across the breezeway with fire showing.. he also seemed concerned with fire wraping around the breezway from the balcony while making the stairs. Once inside it was hard to tell but it looked like he pulled the ceiling and got the nozzle FF to come back when they found significant fire in the attic.

    ETA: Overall a very nice job for 2 guys on a single line given the volume of fire and involvement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    My one concern is those types of apartments is the covered breezeway.. they don't always have firestops. A fire as well off as this one has probably taken the attic above the apartment and if there is no separation the breezeway could be compromised. Can't become complacent just because it's "outside".
    How common is it for an apartment with a breezeway like that to NOT have a fire stop built in the attic space? We don't have any apartment complexes with breezeways like that in either departments district.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I went out of my way to indicate that I wasn't trying to attack or insult you, yet you appear to have been insulted anyway. I'm not sure why.
    It is not necessary to present your experience or training credentials. The fact that you were fairly seriously burned while acting as an instructor at a training session tells me plenty about your experience and credentials, or lack thereof.
    The fact you missed, you pompous know it all horse's azz, is the student, while failing to do what I told him to, not once but twice, was uninjured and neither were any of the other students. In that kind of circumstance I would much rather ensure they were safe, and take a little punishment myself, than the inverse. A concept I am sure would be foreign to a guy like you.

    Frankly, you are nothing to me but another newbie trying to make his bones. So good luck with that.

    By the way, where are you a Captain?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-24-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    How common is it for an apartment with a breezeway like that to NOT have a fire stop built in the attic space? We don't have any apartment complexes with breezeways like that in either departments district.
    I can't speak to commonality.. all I know is we had a similar fire last year in a building with common attics and breezeway. It surprised me as I had assumed fire code would require some sort of separation between apartments and common areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I can't speak to commonality.. all I know is we had a similar fire last year in a building with common attics and breezeway. It surprised me as I had assumed fire code would require some sort of separation between apartments and common areas.
    I'll have to drive around our districts just to double check, and to hopefully learn something if I do find one.

    About 5 years ago now, I lived in a quad-plex apartment building. Two on top, with two directly below. The downstairs apartment I lived in had drop ceiling. I was up in the ceiling one day looking for something, and I noticed there was absolutely NO fire stop between my apartment and the adjacent lower apartment. The wall didn't even go all the way up to the floor of the upper apartments. The framework extended all the way from bottom to top, and the wall for the lower apartments stopped about 2" above the drop ceiling, so there were large gaps in between the framework, where if one of the apartments caught fire and we couldn't get there fast enough, the whole thing was coming down.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I can't speak to commonality.. all I know is we had a similar fire last year in a building with common attics and breezeway. It surprised me as I had assumed fire code would require some sort of separation between apartments and common areas.
    Wowzers. Sounds like a nice place... TO MOVE OUT OF!!
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

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