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Thread: LA is gone for 3 days

  1. #21
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Alright, let's try and explain what I did here without it turning into a 48 page explanation.

    Once we got on scene, I took one of the firefighters with me to go interior, the other firefighter I tasked with water supply, and the driver/chief did a little of both.

    I grabbed our 300', 2" crosslay, and dropped the first bundle at the door. I did a 360 and decided that the front door was the best route of entry. While I was doing my 360, the other firefighter and the driver were pulling the rest of the line, and had it all flaked and ready to go so that by the time I got back around to the front door, we were ready to charge the line.

    While that was going on, my other FF was pulling our LDH to hit the hydrant.

    Before entry, if you look at the first picture, above those windows where it's burned and blackened (remember that, that's important), there was fire, I hit that, and then we made entry and immediately went upstairs, no signs of fire, but the upstairs was full of smoke. I did a quick search of the upstairs and bedrooms, then we backed out, and the driver brought me the TIC (oops) and we checked for heat, nothing. Went downstairs, and in the B-C corner laundry room, there was a little spot fire. Quick extinguishment of that and then it was back upstairs, as there was no other heat readings or fire downstairs.

    By this point, my other FF had stretched another 2" crosslay and was on the B-Side.

    We went back upstairs, still no sign of heat, or fire. Checked the upstairs B-C corner (kitchen) and nothing, nothing in the living room which was the A-B corner. Reading 75 degrees at the ceiling on a 72-78 degree day outside. Poked an inspection hole in the ceiling, and by that time MA had arrived and we were relieved, went outside, I changed my cylinder and grabbed a different firefighter and went back in to do "truck work"

    Went around to the C-side, up the deck stairs, and the rest of the fire was spent pulling ceiling and knocking the fire down. The majority of the fire was in the attic only, with water and smoke damage. to the rest of the house. It was too far in the attic for us to make a better stop than we did by the time we got there, but the homeowner was appreciative, and they are actually rebuilding/remodeling the current structure, not just tearing it down.

    Based on looking at the house afterwards, talking to the officer who had talked to the home owner, and factoring in weather, this is what I've come up with. The officer said the homeowner had been out to smoke about 30mins before the call. She threw her cigarette off the deck, and it landed in the grass/touching the house on the B-side towards the B-C corner. Regardless of if that is true or not, I still believe that's where the fire started. It was then carried across the B side towards the A-side by the wind, (windy as hell that day) and by the time we arrived and made entry, it had already entered the attic space from the soffet above those windows I mentioned on the A-side. and a lot of the attic was already involved by the time we got there.

    Also, I think what kept the TIC from registering any heat was that there were two layers of rolled insulation above the ceiling. When we were pulling ceiling after the fire was knocked down, I noticed that only the top layer of insulation was burned and blackened, and the layer closest to the ceiling still looked brand new.

    I hope all of that makes sense? I just started typing and didn't stop....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse


  2. #22
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Thought we were working with Chenzo's response of 1 engine - 4 guys. Nothing else for 10 minutes after that....

    If we want to do the scenario with our normal responses....

    Truck 1 (5 guys) is going interior on arrival. They'll search, check for extension and use can to control that. Engine 1 (5 guys) is laying in, putting a 1 3/4 on exterior and pulling a 1 3/4 to go interior where (if) Truck 1 determines its needed. Engine 2 going to a different water supply and staging there till moved up to scene to help with overhaul. Truck 2 also coming in to check for extension/overhaul. FAST on it's way, will be on scene in 7 minutes. Mutual Aid will probably be sent to station for coverage.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Thought we were working with Chenzo's response of 1 engine - 4 guys. Nothing else for 10 minutes after that....

    If we want to do the scenario with our normal responses....

    Truck 1 (5 guys) is going interior on arrival. They'll search, check for extension and use can to control that. Engine 1 (5 guys) is laying in, putting a 1 3/4 on exterior and pulling a 1 3/4 to go interior where (if) Truck 1 determines its needed. Engine 2 going to a different water supply and staging there till moved up to scene to help with overhaul. Truck 2 also coming in to check for extension/overhaul. FAST on it's way, will be on scene in 7 minutes. Mutual Aid will probably be sent to station for coverage.
    I also assumed we were trying to do this with the one original engine. Wait 10-15 minutes for MA and that attic is burned out along with a good chunk of upper level (not guaranteed but likely).

  4. #24
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    a good chunk of upper level (not guaranteed but likely).
    Negative. Fire was contained to the attic space. There was no fire that touched anything below the ceiling in the upper level of the home, only place there was fire damage other than the attic space and exterior was the B-C corner laundry room, where the fire had initially burned through the wall.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Negative. Fire was contained to the attic space. There was no fire that touched anything below the ceiling in the upper level of the home, only place there was fire damage other than the attic space and exterior was the B-C corner laundry room, where the fire had initially burned through the wall.
    I meant if you waited around for MA, that's what would've happened.

  6. #26
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    We would go pretty similar to how you attacked it. One would get water (what is a hydrant?) supply set up (the portable pond and suction into it waiting for first tanker). The operator would be getting suction for the portable pond, getting hand tools for interior crew. Interior 1 will pull line to the front door and flake while interior 2 (I am assuming myself) makes a 360.

    Interior goes to second floor - upon encountering no fire, water supply will now be asked to hit fire exterior around window so that we can perform horizontal ventilation after returning from first floor. Go to first and extinguish what is found. Upon return to second floor, window gets opened and hydraulic ventilation is performed so that we can see if we can find access to the attic.

    At this time, exterior will hit the outside. When he sees signs of extension to attic, or interior finds attic access, then. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . . .vent a peaked roof on the "A" side 3/4 up and 4' from the edge.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I meant if you waited around for MA, that's what would've happened.
    I went back and reread it, my bad. You did say if we waited for MA to arrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA
    then. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . . .vent a peaked roof on the "A" side 3/4 up and 4' from the edge.
    That's one thing I wish we would have done that we didn't.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    We would go pretty similar to how you attacked it. One would get water (what is a hydrant?) supply set up (the portable pond and suction into it waiting for first tanker). The operator would be getting suction for the portable pond, getting hand tools for interior crew. Interior 1 will pull line to the front door and flake while interior 2 (I am assuming myself) makes a 360.

    Interior goes to second floor - upon encountering no fire, water supply will now be asked to hit fire exterior around window so that we can perform horizontal ventilation after returning from first floor. Go to first and extinguish what is found. Upon return to second floor, window gets opened and hydraulic ventilation is performed so that we can see if we can find access to the attic.

    At this time, exterior will hit the outside. When he sees signs of extension to attic, or interior finds attic access, then. . . . . .wait for it. . . . . . .vent a peaked roof on the "A" side 3/4 up and 4' from the edge.
    Looks like I put more emphasis on finding out what conditions in the attic are. I would not worry about finding "attic access". I would open small exam holes in ceiling along B side. The exterior guy is not the best option to determine conditions in the attic. He may see that it is extending into attic but interior guy would be needed to determine how much and how far it extended.
    With only 4 guys total I'd rather put those guys to use extinguishing the fire rather than venting the fire. There would be a very small window of opportunity to keep this fire in check before it got real ugly. But if efforts were concentrated on an exterior line and an interior line pulled simultaneously (or close to it) along with quick opening of attic from below, you would have a shot at controlling it.
    It sounds like this is what was done.

  9. #29
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Looks like I put more emphasis on finding out what conditions in the attic are. I would not worry about finding "attic access". I would open small exam holes in ceiling along B side.
    I would agree with you there. The room is already damaged, ceiling would not hurt, unless access was in the hall directly outside room in question. I do not fit between joists too well.

    The exterior guy is not the best option to determine conditions in the attic. He may see that it is extending into attic but interior guy would be needed to determine how much and how far it extended.
    Upon arrival, he stated fire was lazily rolling around the eaves. When the exterior flows water, he will be able to see the exposed members indicating it went into the attic. At that time, I would want him throwing ladders in anticipation of venting the roof. True, you are only going to see extent from inside the attic, but he will see it went there first and he is also the one preparing for ventilation while interior is pulling ceiling and looking for access.
    With only 4 guys total I'd rather put those guys to use extinguishing the fire rather than venting the fire. There would be a very small window of opportunity to keep this fire in check before it got real ugly. But if efforts were concentrated on an exterior line and an interior line pulled simultaneously (or close to it) along with quick opening of attic from below, you would have a shot at controlling it.
    It sounds like this is what was done.
    With only 10 minutes before next due arrival, they will probably be getting to the roof to ventilate by the time everything else is done. By the time exterior has hit the fire and knocked it down to where extension is visible, MA should be on scene.

    I agree that it was a good stop.

  10. #30
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    HuntPA,
    I'm not concerned about getting firefighters into attic. I'm concerned with getting water into attic. That is a low pitch roof. It's not like you'd be able to move around real well up there and it's kind of small for storage, so there may not even be access.
    I'm still not sure what you mean about knocking down the outside so extension is visible. The way to beat this fire is to assume that fire burned up the exterior wall and entered the attic. Get a line to interior upper level, pull ceilings and hit fire. If you don't do this and do it fast you are probably going to lose a good chunk of the attic/roof. With only 4 guys I don't see how you can do this AND vent roof AND knock down exterior fire in the time frame required to stop this fire. Opening roof will help fire vent up and out, thereby slowing/stopping further fire spread horizontally. But unlike water, it will not extinguish the existing fire.
    Chenzo and his crew did a real good job of stopping this fire, apparently without opening roof.
    When exterior siding of a house is burning it can look pretty spectatcular and produce a ton of smoke (especially vinyl siding). From a firefighting standpoint, it is the interior that must be addressed. Open windows or doors and eaves or other structural/architectural elements are the things that allow fire inside, at least initially. We can't get sidetracked by the show taking place on the exterior. I'm not suggesting it be ignored but it isn't the main problem.

  11. #31
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Everything old is new again... the solution for knocking down attic and cellar fires.. the Bresnan Distributor Nozzle


    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I have nothing to offer up on the tactics of this attack that hasn't already been said.

    GREAT stop though. Good job Chenzo.
    Chenzo likes this.

  13. #33
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Everything old is new again... the solution for knocking down attic and cellar fires.. the Bresnan Distributor Nozzle


    Every one of our engines and trucks carry a Bresnan on them. They are quite effective.
    IAFF

  14. #34
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    From Bobby Halton's page in Fire Engineering... 10/01/2012
    Don't Throw Out Your Skinny Ties

    By Bobby Halton

    Being firefighters, most of us wore one uniform or another for our entire lives; consequently, most of us have a very limited fashion sense. Many of us rely on our family and friends to dress us so that we don't go out with white socks and blue Dockers or wear white after Labor Day. We would all admit to having gone out in public in outfits that have made golfers blush after we dressed ourselves or when our wives were away. Anyway, the one piece of fashion advice that is useful for firefighters came to me from my dad when he told me, "Son, don't throw out your skinny ties."

    What that little fashion tidbit relates to is the fact that a man's tie can do one of two things: get wider or get skinnier and that, from time to time, those who run the fashion world decide that skinny ties are in or that fat ties are in and that as long as you don't throw out either one, you can always be in fashion. From a tactical perspective, we should never throw out tactics or equipment related to those tactics just because someone has found a new tool or a "better," "faster," more effective tool--case in point, the cellar nozzle.

    The fire service has been intimately aware of the changing fuel loads in our fires since the 1950s. These changing fuel loads have had a dramatic effect on how we fight fire. We are acutely aware of the dangerous dynamic nature of today's fires these elevated heat release rates have created. We have been intensely examining our approaches to different situations with regard to fire behavior, the effects of ventilation, and hose streams in various settings to include row houses, high-rises, old-law and new-law tenements, and residential structures, but in no area have we reassessed our tactics as dramatically as in the way we approach basement fires.

    As our approach to tactics has been affected by our current fuel loads and building styles, it has also been affected by our advances in personal protective clothing, self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA), and communication capabilities. Recent studies on basement fires are demonstrating that cellar nozzles and "Bresnan distributors" can be extremely valuable tools for addressing below-grade basement fires.

    The Bresnan distributor was an inspiration from another generation where the issue was not increased heat release rates but toxic gases' replacing normal atmospheres in below-grade fires; firefighters were lost when they descended into these subterrain fires. Prior to the 1980s, when SCBA use became widespread, firefighters for centuries had faced working in environments where they routinely inhaled contaminated air and deadly gases. Recognizing the danger a cellar fire posed for firefighters and property, a Fire Department of New York (FDNY) battalion chief and inventor created the Bresnan distributor.

    Battalion Chief John J. Bresnan served in the FDNY in the 1800s. He was born in Ireland and immigrated to the United States as a child. During the Civil War, he was a drummer with the 69th Regiment; before the war, he was a volunteer firefighter with Fulton Engine Company No. 21. He was appointed a member of the FDNY on October 20, 1865. He was an inventor, and among his many inventions were the Bresnan distributor; the hose roller; and a harness for the horses referred to as the "swinging harness," designed to facilitate faster response times in those days.

    Chief Bresnan was the head of the Sixth Battalion when he was killed in the collapse of a roof-mounted water tank while fighting a fire on West 23rd Street. He had just returned from another fire on 11th Street when he responded to this one, still in all his gear and unwashed. On arrival, he struck a second alarm, and after the axmen had cut their way into the building, in true fire service tradition, he led the troops up the stairs into heavy smoke-charged conditions. He was directing hosemen when the fourth-floor supports failed and the water tank fell in. Killed with the chief was Assistant Foreman John L. Rooney, a recipient of the FDNY's James Gordon Bennett Medal for distinguished bravery, who saved the life of a young girl he had coaxed into jumping into his arms to save her from a fire as he stood atop a ladder.

    According to the accounts of their deaths, neither man died instantly; both died from suffocation caused by the debris that had fallen on them. It was said of Chief Bresnan, "No braver, abler, or more conscientious man than John J. Bresnan ever drew a paycheck in the service of the city of New York." It was noted that Chief Bresnan's entire career record was "unsullied" by any official complaint of any character. The chief left behind three young children; his wife had passed away nine years earlier. He also began a legacy of FDNY heroes that included his son, grandsons, and three great grandsons.

    Chief Bresnan was passionate about making improvements to the fire service and enhancing safety for the citizens. He was able to recognize hazards and devise tactical options and tools to address those hazards. Sadly, many have put their Bresnan distributors on shelves or in display cases. Where is your Detroit door opener, an excellent forcible entry tool? Take a look at the old Macks from the 1950s; they were built to flow water with mounted hard-piped water guns on all four corners. Where are your piercing nozzles, cellar pipes? We may not have a lot of use for the swinging harness, but the Bresnan distributor developed six score and 12 years ago is still a valuable and an effective tool.
    The Fire Service needs more people like Chief Bresnan and less than you know who...
    FyredUp, Chenzo and RangerJake72 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #35
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Everything old is new again... the solution for knocking down attic and cellar fires.. the Bresnan Distributor Nozzle


    In my FFI class.... The intsructors put the cellar nozzle on the end of the 2.5".... And said "Alright who wan'ts the nozzle this time?" Let's just say I knew what a cellar nozzle was, and backe slowly away. One of the newer people jumped up and took the nozzle...... I'm quite certain he regretted that.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  16. #36
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    HuntPA,
    I'm not concerned about getting firefighters into attic. I'm concerned with getting water into attic. That is a low pitch roof. It's not like you'd be able to move around real well up there and it's kind of small for storage, so there may not even be access.
    You are right. I did not notice the low pitch of the roof. That is something very odd for our area. I would still have looked in the hallway directly outside the second floor rooms for access before pulling ceiling though.

    I'm still not sure what you mean about knocking down the outside so extension is visible.
    You can see that the vertical gable members are burnt off. When the exterior fire is hit, this would be obvious and that information would then be relayed that there is definitive proof of attic extension. This would hurry the ceiling pull.

    The way to beat this fire is to assume that fire burned up the exterior wall and entered the attic. Get a line to interior upper level, pull ceilings and hit fire. If you don't do this and do it fast you are probably going to lose a good chunk of the attic/roof.
    I disagree here. I would go to upper habitable spaces and do a search and check for extension there, then go to lower floors and do the same. Checking the rooms for occupants is priority one, priority 2 is extension.

    With only 4 guys I don't see how you can do this AND vent roof AND knock down exterior fire in the time frame required to stop this fire. Opening roof will help fire vent up and out, thereby slowing/stopping further fire spread horizontally. But unlike water, it will not extinguish the existing fire.
    This is why I noted that in real world time, it will take 10 minutes to get to the point where you have found definitive proof of attic extension. Then the exterior man is throwing ladders in anticipation of MA venting the roof. This is going on while interior is pulling ceiling if no attic access is found. I am not going to stop interior from their tasks, so if they get into the attic before vertical ventilation, so be it, but my experience says that it will take longer (remember if there is no attic access, you will need an attic ladder and I don't normally carry those in with the nozzle.)

    Chenzo and his crew did a real good job of stopping this fire, apparently without opening roof.
    When exterior siding of a house is burning it can look pretty spectatcular and produce a ton of smoke (especially vinyl siding). From a firefighting standpoint, it is the interior that must be addressed. Open windows or doors and eaves or other structural/architectural elements are the things that allow fire inside, at least initially. We can't get sidetracked by the show taking place on the exterior. I'm not suggesting it be ignored but it isn't the main problem.
    I agree, good job. To reiterate, nothing was opened until exterior hit the fire. It was only after the interior was checked that exterior hit the fire. I do not like it when someone hits the fire from the outside not knowing that there is extension and they end up steaming me. I tend to get upset with them and let them know of my displeasure. That is why I check first.

  17. #37
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
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    No split levels in our first due.... almost exclusively balloon frame dwellings. First alarm assignment would be 4 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Chief, and 1 Life Squad (Medic Unit). If it was the normal units on the card responding, everyone would be arriving about the same time or within a minute or so.

    First due engine pulls the short line (150') and heads in through the front door.

    Second due would lay in to the 1st, then pull a backup line or maybe an exposure line.

    Third due, according to SOP is RIT. So 2nd means of egress, softening the structure.

    Fourth due, command discretion.

    Truck would head to the roof.

    Squad would be Search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by backsteprescue123 View Post
    No split levels in our first due.... almost exclusively balloon frame dwellings. First alarm assignment would be 4 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Chief, and 1 Life Squad (Medic Unit). If it was the normal units on the card responding, everyone would be arriving about the same time or within a minute or so.

    First due engine pulls the short line (150') and heads in through the front door.

    Second due would lay in to the 1st, then pull a backup line or maybe an exposure line.

    Third due, according to SOP is RIT. So 2nd means of egress, softening the structure.

    Fourth due, command discretion.

    Truck would head to the roof.

    Squad would be Search.
    The original question was "What would you do with your first engine with 4 firefighters knowing that the next engine was 10 minutes out."
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  19. #39
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    Well sorry. Let me summarize. We would go in and put the fire out. Hard to say if we would catch a plug on the way in or not, but you can put out a lot of fire with 500 gallons of water.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by backsteprescue123 View Post
    Well sorry. Let me summarize. We would go in and put the fire out. Hard to say if we would catch a plug on the way in or not, but you can put out a lot of fire with 500 gallons of water.
    I wasn't chastising you. Just stating the parameters Chenzo set.

    I apologize for any confusion.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

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