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Thread: LA is gone for 3 days

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    Default LA is gone for 3 days

    Okay let's finally have a topic that LA can't F*** up for 3 days!!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Let's have a legitimate discussion on operations with limited man power, that doesn't get skewed by his bass ackwards thinking.

    I'm curious to hear what everyone else would do in the situation I had a month-ish ago. Paged out at 1430hrs on a Thursday afternoon for a working structure fire, smoke and flames visible. All occupants confirmed out of the residence. First Engine out the door has 4 members on it, (it doesn't matter to me for your scenario, but for my fire it was the chief driving, myself (LT) in the officers seat, and 2 firefighters in the back.) You're unsure of if/when your second engine will roll and with how many, but you have an engine and a squad/rescue coming MA from a neighboring department (10mins ish out) and an engine coming MA from another dept (10-15 out)

    You arrive on scene to this residence. (Try and ignore the after damage to the best of your ability, and hopefully my visual paints a good enough picture)

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    The wind is blowing from the C side to the A side. Fire is burning, not intensely, up the outside of the B-Side, and curving the A-B corner, licking across the soffet line on the A side.

    You have 4 guys. What do you do?

    (once everyone chimes in and what not, I can elaborate, but initially, with that visual [hopefully a good enough one to figure out what I'm saying] what do you do?)
    Last edited by Chenzo; 06-05-2013 at 09:45 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Great idea Chenzo! Looking forward to pulling from everyone's experience.

    No mention of a water supply so my plan assumes one isn't present. Also, it looks as though the fire was on the A/B corner vs the A/C so if my line placement confuses you it's because our SOPs call for clockwise assigning.

    Upon arrival, and after command is established, I would assign each FF to deploy both preconnects (1 3/4 here).
    1 to the front (a) door and 1 to the involved exterior a/b (but not to charge the (a) side one until I confirmed that its the door I wanted to enter.
    I would meet with residents if they were preset to verify their evacuation, ask about any visible fire inside before they evacuated, and interior stair placement.
    I would then complete my 360.
    Upon completion of my 360 I would instruct the a/b line to extinguish all visible fire until we entered the structure.
    At that time I would face to face with the chief running the rig and pass command and all pert info to him.
    I would then most likely set up PPV on the C-Side (due to wind conditions described) and change that door to our entry point if possible.
    I would have my a/b also stretch to that door to prepare as a back up line until the next apparatus and crew arrives.
    Initial attack will be to the lower level to confirm no fire below us.

    And YES I'm calling the chief part of my 2 out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaBronie View Post
    Great idea Chenzo! Looking forward to pulling from everyone's experience.

    No mention of a water supply so my plan assumes one isn't present. Also, it looks as though the fire was on the A/B corner vs the A/C so if my line placement confuses you it's because our SOPs call for clockwise assigning.
    I mucked up which side of the building is which (sleep deprivation, I tell ya it's a b*tch lol) The first picture would be the A-Side, the second picture would be B-side. The wind was actually coming from the C-side blowing towards the A-side.

    As far as water supply, there is a hydrant 150ft from the residence.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    And yes, the only reason I said PPV was nobody avail for roof work. Maybe the Chief can throw a G/L for the next incoming company.

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    Damn bro! You just threw a little wrench in it with the plug. Haha

    We'll just say we'd bring the plug in with us so I don't type another novel.

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    Well, I'm no officer but I will give it a try. We would grab the hydrant for sure with fire showing. We have no AMA but I would press the officer or senior man to call for the next dept. before we got too far from the station. Hopefully the officer does a complete size up on this one, and he would probably take a fireman with him to handle the utilities. That would leave the hydrant man to pull a line and get ready. I would think that it would be prudent to knock down the fire on the outside of the house before making entry. At that point we would have to make a decision, who do we leave outside? We could be in a pickle at certain times. But if my captain shows up we would be good to go and push to the seat. I would think that the second in engine could pull another line and assist in checking for extension, as well as set up the fan and throw a ladder.
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    All residents confirmed out......grabbing the hydrant on way in (1 guy), on arrival pull 1 3/4" preconnect and knock down the outside fire (that would be occifer and other FF). When the 1st guy is done with the hydrant, he's going inside to check and see what's going on.

    Next in engine be assigned Truck 1 and do their normal duties per our SOGs. That's interior team, ground ladders, and possibility of roof ops.

    3rd in engine probably stage at another water supply with operations to be decided on conditions at the time.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    What size is the booster tank on the engine? We would have a man in the back wrap the hydrant, drop the bag, and get back on the engine. Since the hydrant is only 150' away, after the PO got the preconnect charged (hopefully with Class A foam at .5%), I would have him go turn the hydrant on after he's connected the intake. Frees up a man to go to work immediately. Knock the outside, go in, pull ceiling, and knock the inside. Second due can mop up!
    Our released-to-drive test is similar to this, except in the test, the line is constantly flowing so you have even less time. In this scenario, I seriously doubt a constant flow will be necessary if the agent is applied properly, buying time for the operator to establish his water supply.

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    I think the most critical piece of information is whether or not (and where) fire has extended to interior or attic. That's based on credible info concerning occupants being out. Mutual aid at 10-15 minutes is a long way off and probably too late to help if this is going to be nipped in the bud. While two work on water supply, I would have two go in and check for extension. Lower level would have to be checked although there don't appear to be windows on lower level of B side. Upper floor and attic are most likely areas of extension, especially attic. Open up upper level ceilings to check attic. Smaller holes at this time for inspection only. Stretch first line to an interior location based on results of inspection. If fire is in attic get ahead of it and operate line back toward B side. Second line to outside to extinguish fire.
    This house probably has living room in front which is open to dining room in rear (upper level). Front entrance door probably leads to small vestibule type area that is also open to living room. This will make for easier operations inside the house. I would bring line through front door.
    Outside member could place portable, possibly at front toward C side. There is a rear exit to deck on upper level from kitchen area so if things went bad and front or rear doors couldn't be used there would be a ladder toward other end of house.
    I wouldn't worry about utilities until exterior fire was knocked down.
    If attacked agressively this could probably be controlled before mutual aid arrives.
    It is pretty rare but not unheard of for one of our engines (officer and 4 firefighters)to have to handle something like this basically alone.
    Chenzo, whatever you did it certainly looks like you kept (further) damage to a minimum. Nice job.

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    First, this would get us 4 engines, 2 special services (truck or heavy rescue), and ambulance and the duty chief on dispatch. The next engine would be between 5 and 10 mins behind us depending on where the call is. We would ask for a working fire / second alarm with fire showing on arrival.

    Very similar to the previous posts. Lay out from the hydrant, if only 150 ft, driver makes the connection. Officer does a 360, crew stretches the line. Have the crew knock down the external fire and then make entry, probably through the front door, but would consider side C depending on how strong the wind is.

    Depending on how far behind other units are, what officers are responding, and who is in the back, I would consider deferring command and making entry with the attack team.

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    captnjak, just a question. You have 2 guys on water supply and 2 guys interior opening holes looking for extension/etc. Are the 2 interior guys checking and then coming out and stretching the 2 lines you later mention or are these lines being stretched by the 2 on water supply?

    I like the thought process, but not seeing how the 4 guys are doing this?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I think getting a line on the exterior and knocking down the fire on the outside is the priority. It appears to be a mulch fire that extended to the house, so knocking it down quick will slow down any extension, and buy time. My POC has engines with 1000 gal. tanks, so hitting a hydrant that close can be done by the driver. Once the exterior is knocked down significantly, and the eaves hit pretty good, we'd go interior with ephasis on the eave on the B side and AB corner taking the line inside. The driver, once the hydrant is hooked up, could pull a second line for mopping up any hotspots on the exterior. We'd put some inspecition holes in the ceiling, and use a camera to check for extension and heat. Any extension gets knocked down, but we'd try to limit water damage. Once the second enginge gets there, if things are looking good, we'd work on overhaul and salvage. If not, I'd move them up on the line, to give the 1st crew a break if possible. We'd normally have plenty of manpower coming from other depts if we didn't have it from our own dept. After about 10-12 minutes, we generally have most of what we need.

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    Chenzo's first due engine has a 1020 gallon water tank and 2 inch handlines.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    captnjak, just a question. You have 2 guys on water supply and 2 guys interior opening holes looking for extension/etc. Are the 2 interior guys checking and then coming out and stretching the 2 lines you later mention or are these lines being stretched by the 2 on water supply?

    I like the thought process, but not seeing how the 4 guys are doing this?
    The two who go in are making a quick check for extension, then coming out to stretch into house. Once water supply established (should be pretty quick with hydrant 150 feet away) line can be stretched by exterior guys for exterior fire.
    Not ideal, but just trying to keep this thing from running away; attic probably biggest concern.
    Hard to really argue with guys who prefer to hit exterior first. Maybe seeing it live would make it more definite. If hitting exterior first I'd like to see a quick sweep to knock down main fire and then a move inside. Or deck gun for a quick hit.
    Last edited by captnjak; 06-06-2013 at 08:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I mucked up which side of the building is which (sleep deprivation, I tell ya it's a b*tch lol) The first picture would be the A-Side, the second picture would be B-side. The wind was actually coming from the C-side blowing towards the A-side.

    As far as water supply, there is a hydrant 150ft from the residence.
    Was looking for this.

    Grab the hydrant on the way in and assign engineer and one firefighter to establish connection and put the deckgun to work on the D side and from there out Mr.JaBronie has a pretty good plan except for committing the chief to actual operations and not calling for mutual-aid.

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    Miller,

    Yeah, I would hate to commit the Chief but it was a temp thing until M/A arrives. I assumed that they were on the way as an AMA company. But you know what we get for assuming.

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    Arrive, give a size up, do a walk around assigning the next engine two out(CYA). Third engine gets water supply, first truck assess for ventilation needs, second truck establish RIC. All others stage a block out (except for BC who will be passed command on arrival). The two FF's are stretching lines to the Alpha side, the engineer is stretching a line to the Bravo side. After the lines are charged, the engineer hand jacks to the plug. 150' is very doable for one person. He makes the hydrant but doesn't open it. That leaves one guy on the third in to man the plug. The others will stand by for assignment. The two left over from the second due assist the two first due FF's with fire attack. The third crew can be assigned to knock down the bravo side with the line that is there.

    So we have three lines off, water supply is ready, vent is up to the truck skipper (horizontal, vertical, whatever) RIC is in place, two out is assumed by RIC, fire attack is working, most likely opening up spots of ceiling checking for attic extension and room involvement. If salvage is needed, we still have a rig in staging.

    Note; Our first alarm assignment usually arrives within 8 minutes with exception of the second truck because of cuts, trucks are spread quite thin and far apart.
    IAFF

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    Oh, BTW, nice stop on that fire. Was that a 1-1/2 story? Or is that a two story buried down there. I'd be interested in knowing the layout.
    Last edited by snowball; 06-07-2013 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Damn autocorrect!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Oh, BTW, nice stop on that fire. Was that a 1-1/2 story? Or is that a two story buried down there. I'd be interested in knowing the layout.
    2 story split level. In the front door, up to the left was the upstairs, in the door down to the right was the downstairs, and garage.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Alright, let's try and explain what I did here without it turning into a 48 page explanation.

    Once we got on scene, I took one of the firefighters with me to go interior, the other firefighter I tasked with water supply, and the driver/chief did a little of both.

    I grabbed our 300', 2" crosslay, and dropped the first bundle at the door. I did a 360 and decided that the front door was the best route of entry. While I was doing my 360, the other firefighter and the driver were pulling the rest of the line, and had it all flaked and ready to go so that by the time I got back around to the front door, we were ready to charge the line.

    While that was going on, my other FF was pulling our LDH to hit the hydrant.

    Before entry, if you look at the first picture, above those windows where it's burned and blackened (remember that, that's important), there was fire, I hit that, and then we made entry and immediately went upstairs, no signs of fire, but the upstairs was full of smoke. I did a quick search of the upstairs and bedrooms, then we backed out, and the driver brought me the TIC (oops) and we checked for heat, nothing. Went downstairs, and in the B-C corner laundry room, there was a little spot fire. Quick extinguishment of that and then it was back upstairs, as there was no other heat readings or fire downstairs.

    By this point, my other FF had stretched another 2" crosslay and was on the B-Side.

    We went back upstairs, still no sign of heat, or fire. Checked the upstairs B-C corner (kitchen) and nothing, nothing in the living room which was the A-B corner. Reading 75 degrees at the ceiling on a 72-78 degree day outside. Poked an inspection hole in the ceiling, and by that time MA had arrived and we were relieved, went outside, I changed my cylinder and grabbed a different firefighter and went back in to do "truck work"

    Went around to the C-side, up the deck stairs, and the rest of the fire was spent pulling ceiling and knocking the fire down. The majority of the fire was in the attic only, with water and smoke damage. to the rest of the house. It was too far in the attic for us to make a better stop than we did by the time we got there, but the homeowner was appreciative, and they are actually rebuilding/remodeling the current structure, not just tearing it down.

    Based on looking at the house afterwards, talking to the officer who had talked to the home owner, and factoring in weather, this is what I've come up with. The officer said the homeowner had been out to smoke about 30mins before the call. She threw her cigarette off the deck, and it landed in the grass/touching the house on the B-side towards the B-C corner. Regardless of if that is true or not, I still believe that's where the fire started. It was then carried across the B side towards the A-side by the wind, (windy as hell that day) and by the time we arrived and made entry, it had already entered the attic space from the soffet above those windows I mentioned on the A-side. and a lot of the attic was already involved by the time we got there.

    Also, I think what kept the TIC from registering any heat was that there were two layers of rolled insulation above the ceiling. When we were pulling ceiling after the fire was knocked down, I noticed that only the top layer of insulation was burned and blackened, and the layer closest to the ceiling still looked brand new.

    I hope all of that makes sense? I just started typing and didn't stop....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Thought we were working with Chenzo's response of 1 engine - 4 guys. Nothing else for 10 minutes after that....

    If we want to do the scenario with our normal responses....

    Truck 1 (5 guys) is going interior on arrival. They'll search, check for extension and use can to control that. Engine 1 (5 guys) is laying in, putting a 1 3/4 on exterior and pulling a 1 3/4 to go interior where (if) Truck 1 determines its needed. Engine 2 going to a different water supply and staging there till moved up to scene to help with overhaul. Truck 2 also coming in to check for extension/overhaul. FAST on it's way, will be on scene in 7 minutes. Mutual Aid will probably be sent to station for coverage.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Thought we were working with Chenzo's response of 1 engine - 4 guys. Nothing else for 10 minutes after that....

    If we want to do the scenario with our normal responses....

    Truck 1 (5 guys) is going interior on arrival. They'll search, check for extension and use can to control that. Engine 1 (5 guys) is laying in, putting a 1 3/4 on exterior and pulling a 1 3/4 to go interior where (if) Truck 1 determines its needed. Engine 2 going to a different water supply and staging there till moved up to scene to help with overhaul. Truck 2 also coming in to check for extension/overhaul. FAST on it's way, will be on scene in 7 minutes. Mutual Aid will probably be sent to station for coverage.
    I also assumed we were trying to do this with the one original engine. Wait 10-15 minutes for MA and that attic is burned out along with a good chunk of upper level (not guaranteed but likely).

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    a good chunk of upper level (not guaranteed but likely).
    Negative. Fire was contained to the attic space. There was no fire that touched anything below the ceiling in the upper level of the home, only place there was fire damage other than the attic space and exterior was the B-C corner laundry room, where the fire had initially burned through the wall.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Negative. Fire was contained to the attic space. There was no fire that touched anything below the ceiling in the upper level of the home, only place there was fire damage other than the attic space and exterior was the B-C corner laundry room, where the fire had initially burned through the wall.
    I meant if you waited around for MA, that's what would've happened.

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