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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #201
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Attachment 22931

    I just found this........hmmmm
    I would like to buy a ten pack of those please.
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    Ok so new to postring here but not new to reading all this. First yes I do think we have a right to work smarter not harder when it comes to firefighting, but as the saying goes if it was easy everyone would be a Firefighter. So with this idea in mind we must sometimes do the HARD work and yes sometimes people get hurt. As a Chief Officer it is my job to make sure each of my guys go home, but each member of this Dept also klnows that any time the tones drop it could be our last alarm. But WITH PROPER TRAINING we can lessen that risk. Do i think that the vol. departments have as much time as paid guys to train NO that is just not the case BUT if the Vol. department is willing and able they can train to a higher level than just well we got called but really dont know anything so we have to call in the other Department. Now as I said I am new to posting but have read many, many, many forums here and would just like to say La does NOT let me repeat DOES NOT represent the whole Vol fire side of the fire service. As a Vol Chief Officer My guys train train and train some more and do we always have the manpower to go inside a burning home or large building no but as many other's have said we will show up and do something to help. Now some of you might ask why would we do this if we dont have the man power or all risk hasn't been taken out of the scene, well might be old fashion but if we train to do something and don't do it we might as well have never signed up in the first place just stayed home and said well sorry about Little Timmy but you see we didn't have 20 guys on scene and you know there was a chance that something could happen so we did nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine Asst Chief View Post
    Ok so new to postring here but not new to reading all this. First yes I do think we have a right to work smarter not harder when it comes to firefighting, but as the saying goes if it was easy everyone would be a Firefighter. So with this idea in mind we must sometimes do the HARD work and yes sometimes people get hurt. As a Chief Officer it is my job to make sure each of my guys go home, but each member of this Dept also klnows that any time the tones drop it could be our last alarm. But WITH PROPER TRAINING we can lessen that risk. Do i think that the vol. departments have as much time as paid guys to train NO that is just not the case BUT if the Vol. department is willing and able they can train to a higher level than just well we got called but really dont know anything so we have to call in the other Department. Now as I said I am new to posting but have read many, many, many forums here and would just like to say La does NOT let me repeat DOES NOT represent the whole Vol fire side of the fire service. As a Vol Chief Officer My guys train train and train some more and do we always have the manpower to go inside a burning home or large building no but as many other's have said we will show up and do something to help. Now some of you might ask why would we do this if we dont have the man power or all risk hasn't been taken out of the scene, well might be old fashion but if we train to do something and don't do it we might as well have never signed up in the first place just stayed home and said well sorry about Little Timmy but you see we didn't have 20 guys on scene and you know there was a chance that something could happen so we did nothing.
    That is one hell of a first post. Well said!

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine Asst Chief View Post
    Now as I said I am new to posting but have read many, many, many forums here and would just like to say La does NOT let me repeat DOES NOT represent the whole Vol fire side of the fire service.
    I have this belief that he doesn't even represent the mindset of his VFD. Despite his claims to the contrary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I have this belief that he doesn't even represent the mindset of his VFD. Despite his claims to the contrary.
    You have to have a mind to have a mindset...
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-22-2013 at 09:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I have this belief that he doesn't even represent the mindset of his VFD. Despite his claims to the contrary.
    As I have stated, the Chief and I are of similar mindset in terms of the staffing needed before we will make entry. We also strongly agree for the need for exterior command.

    The Deputy Chief and Captain are a bit more aggressive, and generally will make entry without a staffed backup line either on the ground or going on the ground, unlike me.

    So yes, there are some differences in the way we approach fire operations, but all 4 of agree that due to both training and experience, we have to be less aggressive than we would prefer to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Is it just me or did a discussion on whether or not it is a core duty of the fire service to go interior to save lives and fight fire take a wrong turn and now become a discussion of technical rescue capabilities? It seems LA realized he was getting his azz handed to him on the interior work at a fire scene and had to divert in an attempt to make his pathetic BS seem logical.
    Yeah, that'd be an accurate assessment of the situation.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Yeah, that'd be an accurate assessment of the situation.
    Balls on accurate, Brother, balls on accurate.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have stated, the Chief and I are of similar mindset in terms of the staffing needed before we will make entry. We also strongly agree for the need for exterior command.

    Really? And he works as a career firefighter? So does his career FD wait for the entire first alarm to arrive before they do anything?

    Your passion for exterior command while Rome burns and people die shows how utterly ridiculous and out of touch woth mainstream fire ops you both are.



    The Deputy Chief and Captain are a bit more aggressive, and generally will make entry without a staffed backup line either on the ground or going on the ground, unlike me.

    Thank God you have some actual firefighters. The only hope for your VFD is a change in leadership with pne of them becoming chief.

    So yes, there are some differences in the way we approach fire operations, but all 4 of agree that due to both training and experience, we have to be less aggressive than we would prefer to be.

    How can YOU be less aggressive than doing nothing?
    More blather and excuses...
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    Really? And he works as a career firefighter? So does his career FD wait for the entire first alarm to arrive before they do anything?

    No, he works in communications for a neighboring career department.

    He has 12 years in a volunteer member.

    As far as waiting for the entire first alarm assignment .... You know that's crap. We're talking about a 2-firefighter hose team, a 2 firefighter backup team also functioning as an initial RIT, a pump operator and an incident commander, which is a total of 6 members.

    And a second engine or the tanker on the air but not necessary on the scene. By the way, the AMA engine could fufill that requirement depending on it's ETA.

    Hardly the entire first alarm assignment.


    Your passion for exterior command while Rome burns and people die shows how utterly ridiculous and out of touch woth mainstream fire ops you both are.

    It's not passion but we both believe that an IC operating interior on a handline cannot effectively manage a scene, especially when we have to deal with multiple radio frequencies to contact the AMA department and dispatch.

    As far as people dying, we have not have a fire involving fatalities, or even residents still in the home in many, many years.

    And I have already stated that in the event of entrapment, if the lives were likely viable, I would operate as interior command if needed. The Chief would likely make the same exception, but in our area, that is an VERY, VERY rare event.

    And again, if my members were more experienced I may feel differently, but given the current situation, I don't belong interior.



    Thank God you have some actual firefighters. The only hope for your VFD is a change in leadership with pne of them becoming chief.


    We are all very happy with the current Chief and his management and business abilities, so I don't see a change.

    Likely the DC would not take the position if offered as he has too much on his plate and his no interest in being Chief. The Captain may or may not be interested as he also has a lot going on besides the VFD.


    So yes, there are some differences in the way we approach fire operations, but all 4 of agree that due to both training and experience, we have to be less aggressive than we would prefer to be.

    How can YOU be less aggressive than doing nothing?

    And who said I would do nothing.

    Exterior fire attack. Targeted search within 10' of the door. Getting lines on the ground and positioned at the door for the AMA engine crew.

    Just not make aggressive entry without enough interior members to provide a safe working environment.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Yeah, that'd be an accurate assessment of the situation.
    And where there are adequate resources, training and experience, one could argue that the core mission of the fire department is interior attack.

    That's not the situation that we are discussing.

    We are discussing the hundreds or thousands of VFDs that currently do not respond with adequate resources to provide a safe interior environment for their members.

    In those cases, thier core mission is to contain the fire to the building of origin. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that being the case, and it makes them no less of a fire department than the ones described in the first paragraph.

    And no, my azz was not being handed to me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have stated, the Chief and I are of similar mindset in terms of the staffing needed before we will make entry. We also strongly agree for the need for exterior command.

    The Deputy Chief and Captain are a bit more aggressive, and generally will make entry without a staffed backup line either on the ground or going on the ground, unlike me.

    So yes, there are some differences in the way we approach fire operations, but all 4 of agree that due to both training and experience, we have to be less aggressive than we would prefer to be.
    I don't believe a word of your babbling. I'm convinced you're really trying to convince yourself.

    Please continue. The writings of the delusional are always fun.

    Feel free to have your colleagues confirm. I can't wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And no, my azz was not being handed to me.
    Yes you were. You made a claim about LODDs for VFDs in the context of Technical Rescue, Water, and Collapse scenarios and then never followed up with how many of those types of incidents were responsible for VFD FFs being killed onscene.

    In fact, you ran and hid from that path when you were confronted with it.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-23-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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  13. #213
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really? And he works as a career firefighter? So does his career FD wait for the entire first alarm to arrive before they do anything?

    No, he works in communications for a neighboring career department.

    Ah, a dispatcher...

    He has 12 years in a volunteer member.

    So he doesn't have much real world firefighting experience either. Now the picture becomes even clearer.

    As far as waiting for the entire first alarm assignment .... You know that's crap. We're talking about a 2-firefighter hose team, a 2 firefighter backup team also functioning as an initial RIT, a pump operator and an incident commander, which is a total of 6 members.

    So essentially it IS your first alarm assignment since the last call you talked about here you could only muster 5 guys...So what you are admitting here is you can't do Jack Schitt without your AMA. Golly, that's pretty impressive. I bet it doesn't take long before everyone sees that they just don't need you guys since you can't do anything anyways.

    And a second engine or the tanker on the air but not necessary on the scene. By the way, the AMA engine could fufill that requirement depending on it's ETA.

    COULD FILL IT? Seriously you are delusional. Every fire you talk about where anything interior is done THEY DO IT and your vollies back them up.

    Hardly the entire first alarm assignment.


    Except that it is...

    Your passion for exterior command while Rome burns and people die shows how utterly ridiculous and out of touch with mainstream fire ops you both are.

    It's not passion but we both believe that an IC operating interior on a handline cannot effectively manage a scene, especially when we have to deal with multiple radio frequencies to contact the AMA department and dispatch.

    And you stupidly repeating something that is factually WRONG when it comes to initial command shows once again how BRUTALLY IGNORANT you are about initial scene operations. Just because you fail to understand how initial working command works doesn't mean it is wrong or dangerous. The fact is working command may help the initial line to KILL the fire or SAVE trapped victims. The follow up fact is either the next in firefighter/officer can take exterior command or relieve working command to take exterior command. Either your knowledge of actual incident command is so lacking that you need to go back to training, or you are just being an obtuse jack azz.

    As far as people dying, we have not have a fire involving fatalities, or even residents still in the home in many, many years.

    Thank God for that, because if they were still in the house when you arrived their chances of survival are about the same as a snowball in hell.

    And I have already stated that in the event of entrapment, if the lives were likely viable, I would operate as interior command if needed. The Chief would likely make the same exception, but in our area, that is an VERY, VERY rare event.

    Yeah, sure...

    And again, if my members were more experienced I may feel differently, but given the current situation, I don't belong interior.

    I don't disagree that YOU don't belong interior.


    Thank God you have some actual firefighters. The only hope for your VFD is a change in leadership with one of them becoming chief.


    We are all very happy with the current Chief and his management and business abilities, so I don't see a change.

    WOW! That speaks volumes. Especially when you said he doesn'twant to report to the board or the citizens the absolutely abysmal condition of the VFD and its response capability.

    Likely the DC would not take the position if offered as he has too much on his plate and his no interest in being Chief. The Captain may or may not be interested as he also has a lot going on besides the VFD.


    WOW! I guess you will always suck after all.

    So yes, there are some differences in the way we approach fire operations, but all 4 of agree that due to both training and experience, we have to be less aggressive than we would prefer to be.

    How can YOU be less aggressive than doing nothing?

    And who said I would do nothing.

    Essentially you do nothing until AMA arrives.

    Exterior fire attack. Targeted search within 10' of the door. Getting lines on the ground and positioned at the door for the AMA engine crew.

    So you admit that the AMA FD does your actual interior firefighting for you. So remind me again why they need you and they need to buy you a new engine and a new tanker? Lots of parades coming up perhaps?

    Just not make aggressive entry without enough interior members to provide a safe working environment.

    You just admitted you DON'T make interior attacks, you set the linesup for your AMA FD to use. On the bright side for them you get to pick them up too...
    You make your VFD look more pathetic every time you post.
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  14. #214
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And no, my azz was not being handed to me.
    Clearly it was because you had to take the context of the conversation about structural fire attack on a single family dwelling and enlarge the topic to technical rescue. Possibly one of the oldest tactics of losing political candidates...DIVERSION. Sadly no one fell for your Bull Schitt and you got shut down on that ploy.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-23-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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    Bobby... I heard that there is some third world hellhole dictatorship looking for someone to fill the role of Minister of Diversion, Deflection and Bovine Scatology....

    I am sure that many of us here can write you a glowing letter of recommendation....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    So he doesn't have much real world firefighting experience either. Now the picture becomes even clearer.

    He has 12 years as a volunteer.

    Probably just as much experience as many volunteer Chiefs.

    He is an excellent administrator and has a very good grasp of finances. He is exactly what the department needs right now, as our previous Chief was an excellent firefighter, he had problems with the administrative side of the job.



    So essentially it IS your first alarm assignment since the last call you talked about here you could only muster 5 guys...So what you are admitting here is you can't do Jack Schitt without your AMA. Golly, that's pretty impressive. I bet it doesn't take long before everyone sees that they just don't need you guys since you can't do anything anyways.

    So what do you suggest? That we make an interior attack shorthanded without a dedicated exterior IC and without backup hose team as functioning as the initial RIT?

    It's not like we are waiting for 4 engines and 2 trucks to arrive before we start operations.


    COULD FILL IT? Seriously you are delusional. Every fire you talk about where anything interior is done THEY DO IT and your vollies back them up.

    Was referring to the AMA engine in terms of supplying the backup water supply to the first due engine.

    And yes, I have already stated that many times the AMA engine is supplying our initial fre attack team, or at least supplementing the interior members we have on scene.



    Except that it is...

    Most of the time, it is, though there will be evening runs, when the shift schedule is right, that we can put 8 or 10, but that is certainly the exception.


    And you stupidly repeating something that is factually WRONG when it comes to initial command shows once again how BRUTALLY IGNORANT you are about initial scene operations. Just because you fail to understand how initial working command works doesn't mean it is wrong or dangerous. The fact is working command may help the initial line to KILL the fire or SAVE trapped victims. The follow up fact is either the next in firefighter/officer can take exterior command or relieve working command to take exterior command. Either your knowledge of actual incident command is so lacking that you need to go back to training, or you are just being an obtuse jack azz.

    You beleive in working command, and that's fine if it works for you.

    In our situation, I don't believe that the IC should give up his overall view of the fireground by going interior with the crew, even if that means not going interior, except in the case of a viable rescue.

    To say that since working command works for you, that it should work for us is ignorant. We simply do not have the department wide experience to utilize combat/working command except in extreme circumstances.



    Thank God for that, because if they were still in the house when you arrived their chances of survival are about the same as a snowball in hell.

    Won't disagree that their chances of survival are certainly less than as an example, the residents in my neighboring fire district or the neighboring city, but as I have stated, that is the case in every other rural fire district in the parish.

    I have also stated that it's likely even if we were staffed like we would like to be, most folks that did not extricate themselves before we arrived would likely die just due to the size of the district and the resulting response times.


    Yeah, sure...

    Luckily, that's a highly unlikely event.

    And again, if my members were more experienced I may feel differently, but given the current situation, I don't belong interior.

    I don't disagree that YOU don't belong interior.

    Nice shot. HHahahahaaaaaa. Wrong.


    We are all very happy with the current Chief and his management and business abilities, so I don't see a change.

    He is doing a lot administratively to benefit the department.



    How can YOU be less aggressive than doing nothing?

    Exterior fire attack, which by the way, in last years FNDY live fire experiments has been proven to be very effective in not only knocking down the fire but also cooling the adjoining compartments, is a standard tactic in all fires in which we have fire coming out of multiple windows or openings.

    And because of the results of those experiments, we have been discussing and will likely extend the policy requiring an initial exterior hit with the handline to room and content fires as well.

    We also train on doing doorway based searches.

    Again, I have admitted that in many cases, we are unable to operate interior without putting our members at excessive risk but to say that we do nothing is an inaccurate statement.


    So you admit that the AMA FD does your actual interior firefighting for you. So remind me again why they need you and they need to buy you a new engine and a new tanker? Lots of parades coming up perhaps?

    Never denied that our AMA engine does a pretty heft share of our firefighting. Do they do all of it? No, but right now we rely on them heavily.

    As far as the new engine and tanker, these will be purchased off a bond voted on and passed 6 years ago to build a station, buy 2 engines and re-chassis a tanker. These have all been paid off. We still have 4 years on the life of the bond and under LA law, like equipment can be purchased under the same bond if it is paid off early.

    As I have stated, we are down 2 tankers as one was scraped 5 years ago due to age and we have another that does not currently roll due to age and safety. The engine will replace a 1966 that likley will no longer be allowed to be counted in the rating due to condition.

    Operations cannot be funded through this bond.

    We will also be purchased structural PPE, which on average is 15 years old, wildland gear and at least 12 new SCBA.

    And no, we don't parade.



    You just admitted you DON'T make interior attacks, you set the linesup for your AMA FD to use. On the bright side for them you get to pick them up too...

    Wrong.

    We do make interior attacks.

    There are times that we are able to muster enough manpower to make an interior attack before the AMA engine arrives. In fact, we have done that a few times since our manpower levels have dropped, primarily due to your increased training requirements. And there have been times that we have been forced to wait for the AMA engine.

    But to say that we never make interior attacks on our own is inaccurate.
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    I guess im just a wild and crazy guy , but I have fought and knocked down a bunch of fires with a total of 3 fireman on scene. Having a back up line (2in/out) is great, but I am fairly good at reading a fire and if I think I can kick it in the teeth asap,I will.
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    Posted by Bobby
    Probably just as much experience as many volunteer Chiefs.

    He is an excellent administrator and has a very good grasp of finances. He is exactly what the department needs right now, as our previous Chief was an excellent firefighter, he had problems with the administrative side of the job.
    Great.. another bean counter....

    You beleive in working command, and that's fine if it works for you.

    In our situation, I don't believe that the IC should give up his overall view of the fireground by going interior with the crew, even if that means not going interior, except in the case of a viable rescue.

    To say that since working command works for you, that it should work for us is ignorant. We simply do not have the department wide experience to utilize combat/working command except in extreme circumstances.
    Tens of thousands of FD's use working command, from smal rural VFDs to megametro big city FD's.. must be something in the water in your part of Louisiana.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-23-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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    I had applied for a part time paid pos. with a local IAFF paid dept and the dept chief when interviewing me said that in some cases the D/O is basically IC until the chief shows up as the officer and FF are either on the line.. Or searching.... Works for them.. They made a grab a few monthes ago and got a knock on the fire with a 3 man crew...

    My original volly dept, which was short handed due to a NASCAR event.. The chief served as the D/O and IC until mutual aid/extra manpower showed up to a working fire.

    I don't understand.. Like I can't get why people make such a big deal out of a room or 2 on fire..

    It doesn't take a fire science degree to advance a line, open a bale, sweep the floor, ceiling, and use a Z pattern or figure 8 or circular pattern ( unless you are 2 and don't know numbers or shapes...and searching isn't a big deal either.. Crawl.. Follow the walls, use a guideline if needed..

    NIMs and ICS are great, I've learned alot taking them... But that is for large scale events 9/11, Katrina, Boston marathon etc where you.. The IC and the firefighter, may need to work with other fire depts or other agencies that you don't work with in a normal basis..

    The ICS forms are for complex events to make sure nothing is forgotten, everyone and everything is accounted for, contingency plans, etc...

    Not for a kitchen on fire.. Shut up, pull the line put the fire out and go to rehab and flirt with the cute emt while you sip a cold beverage..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I had applied for a part time paid pos. with a local IAFF paid dept and the dept chief when interviewing me said that in some cases the D/O is basically IC until the chief shows up as the officer and FF are either on the line.. Or searching.... Works for them.. They made a grab a few monthes ago and got a knock on the fire with a 3 man crew...

    Great ... Works for them.

    Career department. Likely runs a fair amount of fires. And the driver has likely been around for awhile.I would suspect that i would feel quite comfortable with him outside acting as the de facto IC.

    Fast forward to my VFD. I have a couple of old hands that have been around quite awhile, and likely I would have no issues placing them in the role of IC if the situation demanded it.

    On the other hand, I have a couple of drivers only that have zero firefighting experience. They are drivers and while they do attend our training, they certainly are not trained to the level to function as an IC, They simply have not been trained to observe smoke or structural conditions, and have not been trained to supervise fire operations.

    Even most of my firefighters are simply to inexperienced to operate as ICs if needed as they have only one or two fires under their belt.


    My original volly dept, which was short handed due to a NASCAR event.. The chief served as the D/O and IC until mutual aid/extra manpower showed up to a working fire.

    Again, Chief as D/O. been there done that.

    Many years ago at my previous VFD my Chief and I worked a garage fire. he pumped and I went interior. And yes, I wasn't killed but i did have the ceiling come down on me just before I was releived by the next in crew nad there were 2 propane bottles releiving in the garage behind me. An exterior IC that was not 75' away acting as a pump operator and setting up supply lines.

    The IC was simply too involved being a pump operator, and it almost cost me.

    That being said, there were a few other times that I went interior alone, or with another member and just a pump operator, and nothing went wrong. We put the fire out. But in today's fire environment, it simply doesn't make sense to me anymore.


    I don't understand.. Like I can't get why people make such a big deal out of a room or 2 on fire..

    And to a rural VFD that goes to one or two structure fires a year, a room or two on fire IS a very big deal.

    To a rural VFD that makes entry into a structure fire once or twice a year, even if they have access to live burns, making entry into a working, uncontrolled fire is a big deal.

    Is it a big deal to most of the volunteers at my combo department? No. many of them work full-time elsewhere and it's not an issue, and even for those that don't, working fires happen 4-10 or more times a year, so interior ops is no big deal. And it was the same at my previous VFD as we worked at least 4-5 structure fires a year in the district plus several fires responding AMA or requested mutual aid.


    But for that 1-2 time per year department, it is a VERY big deal and not the norm.


    It doesn't take a fire science degree to advance a line, open a bale, sweep the floor, ceiling, and use a Z pattern or figure 8 or circular pattern ( unless you are 2 and don't know numbers or shapes...and searching isn't a big deal either.. Crawl.. Follow the walls, use a guideline if needed..

    Again, see above. For the member that has been on the department 5 years and this is second time he/she has made entry, it is a very big deal.

    NIMs and ICS are great, I've learned alot taking them... But that is for large scale events 9/11, Katrina, Boston marathon etc where you.. The IC and the firefighter, may need to work with other fire depts or other agencies that you don't work with in a normal basis..

    NIMS and ICS are for every call. Every EMS call. Every MVA. Every fire.

    It may be quite simple, and nobody is saying that we need to have a full blown ICS structure for a car fire, but command needs to be announced and the safety function must be filled, even if it's by the IC.

    The ICS forms are for complex events to make sure nothing is forgotten, everyone and everything is accounted for, contingency plans, etc...

    And we don't use ICS forms on every incident, but that has nothing to do with an exterior IC who can observe the entire scene and interface face-to-face with mutual aid departments, EMS, LE and utilities.

    Not for a kitchen on fire.. Shut up, pull the line put the fire out and go to rehab and flirt with the cute emt while you sip a cold beverage..
    Again, disagree, especially with a department with very limited experience.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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