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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Disagree.

    In our current system, a driver/operator only that can run the pump fulfills a critical function.

    Would I like to have somebody with a greater fireground background so if needed, they could perform some other exterior tasks? Sure, but right now a driver/operator fulfills a very basic need for us.
    Aim low dude, aim low.
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    If he aims any lower, he'll hit Antarctica...
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Aim low dude, aim low.
    So utilizing experienced heavy-equipment and heavy truck drivers to operate fire apparatus is aiming low?

    They certainly have more experience in truck operations than the vast majority of our country's firefighters. So what is your logic in not utilizing them?

    The fact is that if we were better staffed, there would be no need for them to do anything but drive and pump the apparatus. Once we are able to add some more interior members, this will no longer be an issue.
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    To effectively provide what the men on the line need, the operator should have preferably have spent time in that position himself, no?

    And I know of few heavy equipment operators who have other's lives depending on whether they perform their jobs with 100% accuracy or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So utilizing experienced heavy-equipment and heavy truck drivers to operate fire apparatus is aiming low?

    They certainly have more experience in truck operations than the vast majority of our country's firefighters. So what is your logic in not utilizing them?

    The fact is that if we were better staffed, there would be no need for them to do anything but drive and pump the apparatus. Once we are able to add some more interior members, this will no longer be an issue.
    Why not get bartenders to respond to calls then? They probably have way more experience changing large bottles similar to scba bottles than most people in the country, especially handy when everyone is standing in the yard on air, you wouldn't even have to buy them PPE. The warm body approach to volunteer firefighting is not conducive to attracting young capable firefighters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Why not get bartenders to respond to calls then? They probably have way more experience changing large bottles similar to scba bottles than most people in the country, especially handy when everyone is standing in the yard on air, you wouldn't even have to buy them PPE. The warm body approach to volunteer firefighting is not conducive to attracting young capable firefighters.
    I would hardly call utilizing experienced heavy equipment operators as drivers and pump operators in the volunteer fire service a "warm body approach".

    It's simple. they understand vehicle operations. they, in most cases, understand mechanics. And in the case of many in our area who work in the oil and gas business, are very familiar hydraulics as they are often pumping fluids as apart of their jobs.

    It doesn't take a firefighter to pump an engine or tanker.
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    No, but I've yet to see a competent pump operator that wasn't a firefighter first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Disagree.

    In our current system, a driver/operator only that can run the pump fulfills a critical function.

    Would I like to have somebody with a greater fireground background so if needed, they could perform some other exterior tasks? Sure, but right now a driver/operator fulfills a very basic need for us.
    Did I say anything about them being able to perform other exterior tasks? No!

    I was talking about using a driver/operator that hasn't been provided any training on fireground operations other than how to pump. I'm not talking about training them how to do a search or vent a roof in a hands on fashion. I'm talking about teaching them about the various tasks that need to be performed on the fireground, why we do them, the tools and tactics used in such, building construction, etc. so that they have a better understanding of what's going on around them. So that they could be a more useful extra set of eyes on the outside. So that they could potentially fill that IC role on a temporary basis when you roll in with limited staffing.

    Why am I not surprised that you wouldn't comprehend my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Did I say anything about them being able to perform other exterior tasks? No!

    I was talking about using a driver/operator that hasn't been provided any training on fireground operations other than how to pump. I'm not talking about training them how to do a search or vent a roof in a hands on fashion. I'm talking about teaching them about the various tasks that need to be performed on the fireground, why we do them, the tools and tactics used in such, building construction, etc. so that they have a better understanding of what's going on around them. So that they could be a more useful extra set of eyes on the outside. So that they could potentially fill that IC role on a temporary basis when you roll in with limited staffing.

    Why am I not surprised that you wouldn't comprehend my point.
    ........"potentially fill the IC role"........?

    You just took it a bit too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So utilizing experienced heavy-equipment and heavy truck drivers to operate fire apparatus is aiming low?
    It's aiming low if you aren't teaching them about the context in which they will be operating the fire apparatus.

    They certainly have more experience in truck operations than the vast majority of our country's firefighters. So what is your logic in not utilizing them?
    Did he say to not utilize them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    ........"potentially fill the IC role"........?

    You just took it a bit too far.
    Sarcasm????

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    I just don't understand having so many specialized members on a volunteer department. Sure use the heavy equipment operators as drivers and engineers, but how many of them do you need? do you actively recruit firefighters that can only do one thing? In our department we have an obligation to be proficient at many jobs, interior attack, exterior attack, size up, command, driving, pumping, water supply and so on. If you have ample manpower I suppose you can afford to be specialized, if you don't have ample manpower, a bunch of firefighters that can only drive a truck aren't much good to the community.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PS:
    I know; I want your answer.

    5'.

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    3 to 5 feet actually... so your 2 to 3 feet in the door for a peek without proper PPE would fry your rump.

    I would be happy of for once you would learn to use the quote function.. if you can hange yor answer to color, you can use the quote feature.. its the little comic word balloon on the charlie/delta section of the toolbar.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-24-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Did I say anything about them being able to perform other exterior tasks? No!

    I was talking about using a driver/operator that hasn't been provided any training on fireground operations other than how to pump. I'm not talking about training them how to do a search or vent a roof in a hands on fashion. I'm talking about teaching them about the various tasks that need to be performed on the fireground, why we do them, the tools and tactics used in such, building construction, etc. so that they have a better understanding of what's going on around them. So that they could be a more useful extra set of eyes on the outside. So that they could potentially fill that IC role on a temporary basis when you roll in with limited staffing.

    Why am I not surprised that you wouldn't comprehend my point.
    All of our drivers and exterior members are required to attend scheduled training, so they are exposed to all areas from ladders and handlines to size-up, water supply, positioning apparatus, foam and tactics, and most of them pickup quite a bit.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-24-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Sarcasm????
    I'm confused. Was your whole post sarcasm or just the part about the IC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    3 to 5 feet actually... so your 2 to 3 feet in the door for a peek without proper PPE would fry your rump.

    I would be happy of for once you would learn to use the quote function.. if you can hange yor answer to color, you can use the quote feature.. its the little comic word balloon on the charlie/delta section of the toolbar.
    Did you happen to note that I stated that I had on an SCBA and full PPE?
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I just don't understand having so many specialized members on a volunteer department. Sure use the heavy equipment operators as drivers and engineers, but how many of them do you need? do you actively recruit firefighters that can only do one thing? In our department we have an obligation to be proficient at many jobs, interior attack, exterior attack, size up, command, driving, pumping, water supply and so on. If you have ample manpower I suppose you can afford to be specialized, if you don't have ample manpower, a bunch of firefighters that can only drive a truck aren't much good to the community.
    Do you really consider command to be the same level as those other functions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Do you really consider command to be the same level as those other functions?
    No. That was not my point at all. Do you have an officer in the first due engine? We don't have that guarantee. We might operate for some time without an officer. In that case a senior fireman would have command, the point is that he can do all of those things listed above as well as command a scene until relieved by an officer. We cant really afford specialized people in a small volunteer outfit. Is it required that I know how to engineer the eight engines in our hall, no but I can, and that makes the whole outfit more flexible.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Aim low dude, aim low.
    He isnít aiming. He just lobs stuff in the air and hope it hits something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I just don't understand having so many specialized members on a volunteer department. Sure use the heavy equipment operators as drivers and engineers, but how many of them do you need? do you actively recruit firefighters that can only do one thing? In our department we have an obligation to be proficient at many jobs, interior attack, exterior attack, size up, command, driving, pumping, water supply and so on. If you have ample manpower I suppose you can afford to be specialized, if you don't have ample manpower, a bunch of firefighters that can only drive a truck aren't much good to the community.
    In his defense, alot of volly depts in areas where there aren't many calls, flashy trucks or huge fire houses, and/or the opportunity to meet training goals this works well to recruit members..

    The Over the road trucker might not want to fight a fire, but he can drive a truck...

    The new firefighter going to a fire academy class 2 nights a week can be classified as an exterior firefighter...he can assist with water supply, be a gofer etc.

    This helps the most experienced members focus on interior attack, VES, etc.

    When you don't have a line around the corner and people beating the doors down this is how trucks get on the road...

    I personally feel everyone should be trained to the same level as a FF, haz mat, first aid/emt etc then go and specialize.. But you do what you gotta do. Knowing there's a retiree who will come out at 2pm on a Tuesday is valuable.

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    I don't take anything away from the people who just want to help drive and what not, and by the way we have had numerous people like that, people who either cant fight or wont fight fire. The problem here and other places in my state was the more people who joined knowing that they did not have to learn the basics or could cherry pick assignments, the more those kinds of people wanted to join. It sort of set a precedent. All the glory and none of the hard work. I know personally of a dept. here in Montana that was drowning in those kinds of people. The same old complaint of not being able to recruit new people was thrown about a lot. Well, they brought in a new Chief and he set training standards for EVERYBODY. The one trick ponies quit and they now have a full roster of go getters.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Because, after all the time you have been here you are too stupid or lazy to learn how to use the quote function you have once again F***ED up quoting me and posting your replies. because you can't even do the colored lettering thing right it appears some of what I said you said and what you said I said. As I have done so many times I have lost count I will once again fix your post to provide clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You are right, you don't debate. because you truly haven't got one damn clue how it is supposed to work, and it would mean you having to do something other than stand around in a vest with 2 radios, you dismiss it out of hand for your VFD.

    I give up.

    You are the all-knowing about our district and our department, and even though working command is an OPTION, we should use it because you think it's a good idea.

    Pssssst ..... My VFD does not even have a command vest.


    I know enough about your district to know that neither you or your Chief have the brains or the courage to tell the board and citizens what a pathetic train wreck your VFD is and that disaster waits around the very next corner. What happens the day the AMA FD has their own working incident when you need them?

    Despite my having told you this at least 4 times I will tell you once again. There is absolutely no reason while initially command couldn't be involved in fireground tactical operations. The command could be passed to the next arriving officer or senior firefighter, OR they could come in, relieve working command on the line and then command could establish exterior command. You see it isn't really all that difficult to figure out.


    Yes, I could do all of those things, but as the IC I will choose choice D .. None of the above.

    You just want to get the whole gang inside on fire attack don't you? Well as nifty and swell as that might be it just isn't in the cards for my VFD when I have myself, another firefighter and a driver/operator.

    Go play in the road with your working command all day, but I simply don't see it as a viable option in my current VFD under the current manpower conditions.


    No Bobby the playing in the road and on the front lawn is your gig. My FDs are going inside to put out the fire and saving lives. Too bad you don't see the value in actually doing the job.

    Of course because working command is specifically designed for those situations where staffing is limited in those first crucial moments upon arrival. I can completely understand why you wouldn't wantto do something like that that may actually save the house...

    Again, the safety of my men comes before saving the house, and I don't feel that working command works well in ensuring their safety.

    It's really that simple.


    If you understood it you could easily set aside your fears.

    Sure you have, but now you see no value in it.

    Never said that it didn't have value under the right circumstances, but here, with our current manpower, training and experience situation I feel that it jeopardizes the safety of my personnel, and that is the priority.

    Your excuses are becoming boring and old.

    How many fires do you need to get on the radio to your AMA FD and tell them you have the attack line before they assume that is what they will be doing at EVERY fire in your VFD's area?

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]Actually the attack line was pulled and operating at every fire they have responded to it the past 2 years. We do contact them and let them know what tasks we do need them to perform such as providing additional manpower for it, taking it inside after it operated exterior or pulling a second line

    Not the same thing at all spraying water in windows as it is going inside to actually kill the fire where it lives.

    If you understood working command you wouldn't make stupid comments like this one.

    So you consider it wise to leave a driver as the only exterior member when he is simply trained to pump and drive the apparatus, and has no fire specific training at all?

    So what you are saying here is a complete argument against your singularly trained positions. If having a driver that can only drive and pump is what keeps your from entering a burning building then it is time to expand training wouldn't you think?

    That being said, until more help arrives, even though I am an exterior IC, I do have a SCBA on my back, just in case things go south, and I may duck inside for 20-30 seconds if needed to see how things are progressing, but I will not tie myself to a line as part of a 2-man interior team while functioning as the IC unless it is a rescue situation.

    Who is taking the crew inside? If you can't trust whoever is going inside and you are exterior command with an scba on so you can "Duck inside" why not just go inside?

    Nobody is inside.

    Well, not til AMA arrives.

    I may want to see what is happening for myself, and yes, as an exterior IC, "ducking inside for 20-30 seconds is permissible, especially if I want to take a look at the effectiveness of the exterior line.

    So it is safe for YOU to "duck" inside with no other interior firefighters on scene but not safe to go inside to fight the fire?

    I am not committing myself to a line.


    Of course not...

    The crap you come up with is mind boggling.
    It just keeps getting weirder and weirder...

    It's really simple.

    1. Any operation is driven by the safety of my manpower, not the incident.

    Every firefighter operates as safely as they can, some are just more willing to risk more than you will, which is absolutely nothing.

    2. While I have used working command in the past, I feel that under the current circumstances working command is not a viable option.

    Proving you really have no understanding of working command and its value.

    3. Any decision I make will be based on the premise that all of my personnel will go home unhurt all the time.


    Then your premise is faulty because you simply cannot 100% guarantee that and it proves you are just plain delusional about all things firefighting.
    Just more of your same nonsense...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have been fighting for written parish wide RIT procedures and guidelines. No interest. I developed written multi-department AMA and mutual aid protocols for up to 5 alarms for residential and commercial properties for my department. No complicated. Even my transitional fire attack SOP had to be rewritten in a less complicated manner. Just the way that it is brother.
    Maybe there is no interest due to who is writing them...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    I have been fighting for written parish wide RIT procedures and guidelines. No interest. I developed written multi-department AMA and mutual aid protocols for up to 5 alarms for residential and commercial properties for my department. No complicated. Even my transitional fire attack SOP had to be rewritten in a less complicated manner. Just the way that it is brother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Maybe there is no interest due to who is writing them...
    My thoughts exactly!
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