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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I'm confused. Was your whole post sarcasm or just the part about the IC?
    Actually, none of it was sarcasm.

    What about it caused you to think that way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Actually, none of it was sarcasm.

    What about it caused you to think that way?
    What made me think it was sarcasm? When you replied by writing: "Sarcasm??????"

    The issue I have with your post is that you suggested a driver/operator who is untrained in firegound ops could not vent or search but could "potentially fill the role of the IC".

    I responded that you took your point too far. IC is not just about putting the right vest on a guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I responded that you took your point too far. IC is not just about putting the right vest on a guy.
    You are right, it is not about vests, or a warm body, filling a position on the ICS board. It is about being savy enough to know early on whether your personal intervention in the emergency is more valuable than standing out front with a radio filling that slot. Frankly, anyone that can't see that the officer of the first arriving fire rig, at some scenes, is far more valuable assisting with hose advance or rescuing victims than standing on the front lawn has no business being in command of anything, let alone a fire scene. It has become boring and mindless listening to LA rant and rave about how unsafe working command is when infact it is used successfully every day all across the country
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It has become boring and mindless listening to LA rant and rave about how unsafe working command is when infact it is used successfully every day all across the country
    I know I'm not alone. My crews put out many a fire with me assuming the IC in fast attack mode and assisting the FF's stretching hoselines into structures.

    I just shake my head at LAFE's remarks.
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    When I was a Captain (and covering the officer on the engine because he got called into a hazmat incident as a member of the District 3 hazmat team), I did it at a fire that went to 2 alarms... my second due Engine was a good 6 minutes out returning from a call, my third due Engine was tied up at a medical. I started with 1 engine, a Ladder and the Rescue, with I, the nozzleman and the 2 firefighters from the rescue starting initial fire attack pulling two 1.75" lines off the engine; the Truck company opened the roof and I had the Lieutenant on the second due engine take command upon the companies arrival.

    It is not rocket science, nuclear physics or brain surgery, there are thousands of incidents handled this way every single day in rural, suburban, urban settings in career, call and volunteer departments.

    LA's rants remind me of the verbally abusive parent who keeps telling the children that they will not amount to anything, because he won't let them get experience and gain knowledge about the job.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-27-2013 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Spelling corrections.. I was typing like Bossier Bob for a moment!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You are right, it is not about vests, or a warm body, filling a position on the ICS board. It is about being savy enough to know early on whether your personal intervention in the emergency is more valuable than standing out front with a radio filling that slot. Frankly, anyone that can't see that the officer of the first arriving fire rig, at some scenes, is far more valuable assisting with hose advance or rescuing victims than standing on the front lawn has no business being in command of anything, let alone a fire scene. It has become boring and mindless listening to LA rant and rave about how unsafe working command is when infact it is used successfully every day all across the country
    I said it was unsafe in my current situation, and I fully standby that statement.

    It was perfectly safe in my previous VFD given the manpower levels, the response of multiple AMA departments and the framework that has been established for the assumption of command through the adoption of common practices and common mutual aid training.

    Don't continue to put words in my mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    When I was a Captain (and covering the officer on the engine because he got called into a hazmat incident as a member of the District 3 hazmat team), I did it at a fire that went to 2 alarms... my second due Engine was a good 6 minutes out returning from a call, my third due Engine was tied up at a medical. I started with 1 engine, a Ladder and the Rescue, with I, the nozzleman and the 2 firefighters from the rescue starting initial fire attack pulling two 1.75" lines off the engine; the Truck company opened the roof and I had the Lieutenant on the second due engine take command upon the companies arrival.

    It is not rocket science, nuclear physics or brain surgery, there are thousands of incidents handled this way every single day in rural, suburban, urban settings in career, call and volunteer departments.

    LA's rants remind me of the verbally abusive parent who keeps telling the children that they will not amount to anything, because he won't let them get experience and gain knowledge about the job.
    Again, experienced paid staff. Experienced paid driver /operator.

    Very different situation from my current VFD.

    I'm perfectly willing to let this go as long as some of the members here admit that working command is not applicable in all situations, just like I have stated over and over that in some situations, it is quite applicable.

    And again, I have one job as an officer and that is to make sure my folks go home unhurt, and yes, that comes above the needs of the citizen's needs. Sorry, but that is how I feel.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-28-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I know I'm not alone. My crews put out many a fire with me assuming the IC in fast attack mode and assisting the FF's stretching hoselines into structures.

    I just shake my head at LAFE's remarks.
    And again, experienced, paid staffs with far greater training levels.

    It's really that simple.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I said it was unsafe in my current situation, and I fully standby that statement.

    Yet it was safe for you to "Duck in" and take a peak at the fire's progress with no hose line, or no 2 in 2 out? Seriously Bobby don't you make yourself dizzy with all the twists and turns and loop de loos you make when trying to defend your nonsense? You said you had 1 interior guy with you, why didn't you both just go in and ut the fire out? Oh yeah that would have meant actually doing real firefighting instead of trying to look impressive ducking in for a second and accomplishing nothing.

    It was perfectly safe in my previous VFD given the manpower levels, the response of multiple AMA departments and the framework that has been established for the assumption of command through the adoption of common practices and common mutual aid training.

    Dude by the time you get there, get setup, do your 360, and whatever other crap you do to avoid going inside your AMA department is on scene. My point? If you had 2 guys ready to go at that point as soon as your AMA arrived your guys could be entering. Or they could have entered knowing the AMA was close. Keep making excuses, keep handing your fires to the AMA, keep lying to the board and community. At least you found something your VFD is good at.

    Don't continue to put words in my mouth.

    There isn't room for me to put words in your mouth, your foot is in the way.
    Just more of the same excuses and false indignation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, experienced paid staff. Experienced paid driver /operator.

    Yet Chenzo did it with an all volunteer crew...WOW! Now what Bobby?

    Very different situation from my current VFD.

    It sure is, you don't want to go interior so you don't and you stop the guys that would.

    I'm perfectly willing to let this go as long as some of the members here admit that working command is not applicable in all situations, just like I have stated over and over that in some situations, it is quite applicable.

    Of course it isn't applicble in all situations, just like spraying water in the window isn't applicable in all situations. You want us to say what you want said but won't admit that going inside, like your AMA FD does for you, is right in most situations.

    And again, I have one job as an officer and that is to make sure my folks go home unhurt, and yes, that comes above the needs of the citizen's needs. Sorry, but that is how I feel.

    Blah, blah, blah...Golly Bobby, show me one place where anyone else said their mission wasn't to do the job and go home safe. You preach this same schitt over and over like you invented fire ground safety when all it is is a dodge to avoid doing the job.
    You are so boring Bobby, you repeat the same nonsense until you get cornered then you divert.
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  11. #336
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    Yet it was safe for you to "Duck in" and take a peak at the fire's progress with no hose line, or no 2 in 2 out? Seriously Bobby don't you make yourself dizzy with all the twists and turns and loop de loos you make when trying to defend your nonsense? You said you had 1 interior guy with you, why didn't you both just go in and ut the fire out? Oh yeah that would have meant actually doing real firefighting instead of trying to look impressive ducking in for a second and accomplishing nothing.

    Big difference between masking up, going in 3-5' for 10-15 seconds to take a peek at the interior fire conditions from just inside the door and going interior with a hoseline in terms of being detached from what is happening exterior.

    Again, my VFD Chief prefers exterior command. Under some situations interior/working command is warranted but for property, those situations under the current conditions in my VFD are VERY, VERY rare.

    I have no idea why you are so fixated with going interior under working command.



    Dude by the time you get there, get setup, do your 360, and whatever other crap you do to avoid going inside your AMA department is on scene. My point? If you had 2 guys ready to go at that point as soon as your AMA arrived your guys could be entering. Or they could have entered knowing the AMA was close. Keep making excuses, keep handing your fires to the AMA, keep lying to the board and community. At least you found something your VFD is good at.

    Depends on where in the district.

    In all likelihood, given my response time from my home on the border of the neighboring fire district, the AMA engine will either be on-scene or very close to being on-scene when I arrive.

    In the core area of the district, they also will arrive fairly close behind the first in units from my VFD. so in that situation, the initial attack will be performed by a team composed of my VFD and their personnel.

    If we are on-scene with 2 members, exclusive e of myself, there is a good chance, depending on the fire conditions, that they will make entry if the AMA engine is close enough that they could perform as RIT/backup line within a minute or two.
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    So, in essence, you stand in the flow path to determine something that is easily figured out by reading smoke? To determine something you probably won't be able to witness because of said smoke? Please elaborate, I'm intrigued...

    I'm willing to bet it's more of a "Look at how smoked up my helmet is, I know what I'm talking about!" situation while having a brew and "teaching" at the ol' vollie house, huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    So, in essence, you stand in the flow path to determine something that is easily figured out by reading smoke? To determine something you probably won't be able to witness because of said smoke? Please elaborate, I'm intrigued...

    I'm willing to bet it's more of a "Look at how smoked up my helmet is, I know what I'm talking about!" situation while having a brew and "teaching" at the ol' vollie house, huh?
    I look at the exterior conditions during my size-up, then yes, I may open the door, take a look at the interior conditions for 10-15 seconds, leave the house and close the door.

    Do I do it often? No, simply because I am not the first officer on the scene very often.

    I'll also look around the door for any victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I look at the exterior conditions during my size-up, then yes, I may open the door, take a look at the interior conditions for 10-15 seconds, leave the house and close the door.

    Do I do it often? No, simply because I am not the first officer on the scene very often.

    I'll also look around the door for any victims.
    La, either you didn't read his post at all, or you don't understand what a flow path is.

    But I have to give you credit for mentioning that you take the trouble to look for victims (that you know won't happen in your district) in the inches that you might be able to see when you crack a door on a smoke charged house. That takes some salt to do that for a stranger.

    Please read it again and answer accordingly.
    To DaRoof asked,
    So, in essence, you stand in the flow path to determine something that is easily figured out by reading smoke? To determine something you probably won't be able to witness because of said smoke? Please elaborate, I'm intrigued...
    Last edited by snowball; 06-28-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yet it was safe for you to "Duck in" and take a peak at the fire's progress with no hose line, or no 2 in 2 out? Seriously Bobby don't you make yourself dizzy with all the twists and turns and loop de loos you make when trying to defend your nonsense? You said you had 1 interior guy with you, why didn't you both just go in and ut the fire out? Oh yeah that would have meant actually doing real firefighting instead of trying to look impressive ducking in for a second and accomplishing nothing.

    Big difference between masking up, going in 3-5' for 10-15 seconds to take a peek at the interior fire conditions from just inside the door and going interior with a hoseline in terms of being detached from what is happening exterior.

    Again, my VFD Chief prefers exterior command. Under some situations interior/working command is warranted but for property, those situations under the current conditions in my VFD are VERY, VERY rare.

    I have no idea why you are so fixated with going interior under working command.



    Dude by the time you get there, get setup, do your 360, and whatever other crap you do to avoid going inside your AMA department is on scene. My point? If you had 2 guys ready to go at that point as soon as your AMA arrived your guys could be entering. Or they could have entered knowing the AMA was close. Keep making excuses, keep handing your fires to the AMA, keep lying to the board and community. At least you found something your VFD is good at.

    Depends on where in the district.

    In all likelihood, given my response time from my home on the border of the neighboring fire district, the AMA engine will either be on-scene or very close to being on-scene when I arrive.

    In the core area of the district, they also will arrive fairly close behind the first in units from my VFD. so in that situation, the initial attack will be performed by a team composed of my VFD and their personnel.

    If we are on-scene with 2 members, exclusive e of myself, there is a good chance, depending on the fire conditions, that they will make entry if the AMA engine is close enough that they could perform as RIT/backup line within a minute or two.
    In other words, basically, if you're not there to stop them from making entry and doing their job and putting the fire out, they'll make entry and put the fire out...ya know, what fire departments are supposed to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yet it was safe for you to "Duck in" and take a peak at the fire's progress with no hose line, or no 2 in 2 out? Seriously Bobby don't you make yourself dizzy with all the twists and turns and loop de loos you make when trying to defend your nonsense? You said you had 1 interior guy with you, why didn't you both just go in and ut the fire out? Oh yeah that would have meant actually doing real firefighting instead of trying to look impressive ducking in for a second and accomplishing nothing.

    Big difference between masking up, going in 3-5' for 10-15 seconds to take a peek at the interior fire conditions from just inside the door and going interior with a hoseline in terms of being detached from what is happening exterior.

    Yeah, because ceilings only collapse in the middle of the room...right? And being inside by yourself is safe? Uh huh...HYPOCRITE!

    Again, my VFD Chief prefers exterior command. Under some situations interior/working command is warranted but for property, those situations under the current conditions in my VFD are VERY, VERY rare.

    And remind me again how you know no one is inside?

    I have no idea why you are so fixated with going interior under working command.

    Primarily because my job is to save lives, AND property, when interior conditions allow entry. Not stand outside, spray water in, and pray someone else with bigger stones will go inside and do my job for me.



    Dude by the time you get there, get setup, do your 360, and whatever other crap you do to avoid going inside your AMA department is on scene. My point? If you had 2 guys ready to go at that point as soon as your AMA arrived your guys could be entering. Or they could have entered knowing the AMA was close. Keep making excuses, keep handing your fires to the AMA, keep lying to the board and community. At least you found something your VFD is good at.

    Depends on where in the district.

    So you admit there are times that a working command with another interior firefighter could affect a positive outcome and perhaps save more of the structure.

    In all likelihood, given my response time from my home on the border of the neighboring fire district, the AMA engine will either be on-scene or very close to being on-scene when I arrive.

    Well thank God for that, otherwise you might try to make them stay outside too!

    In the core area of the district, they also will arrive fairly close behind the first in units from my VFD. so in that situation, the initial attack will be performed by a team composed of my VFD and their personnel.

    Sure it will. Why do your guys need to wait for themto arrive to initiate fire attack?

    If we are on-scene with 2 members, exclusive e of myself, there is a good chance, depending on the fire conditions, that they will make entry if the AMA engine is close enough that they could perform as RIT/backup line within a minute or two.

    Wow! You just change your entire story once again. Not that long ago you said you would NEVER enter, unless there was a life to save, without a back up line and RIT in place. Gosh it looks like you got caught fibbing once again.
    Bobby, you must be dizzy all the time with all the spinning of stories you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, experienced, paid staffs with far greater training levels.

    It's really that simple.
    It's even simpler than that. I worked with firefighters. Not pathetic wannabes like yourself.
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    I feel like I'm getting a head bleed here.
    1. Because you are on a Rural FD Does not mean that you cannot train. I am on two Rural VFDs that train every week without fail. The Commonwealth of KY has a Fire Commission that has a training division with all kinds of props and simulators and trailers that have all kinds of training aids that are available to any department on request. Every Firefighter is given a unique ID Number and all of his or her fire training hours go into a statewide data base. This way there is accountability and everybody knows what the other is trained in.

    2. I am sick and tired of hearing about Rural VFDs and what you think we can and cannot do in your opinion. You are giving us an undeserved black eye Bobby. Just because your little part of the world will not do what the rest of us will does not give you a license to be a cancer on the Fire service. Tow the line or get the hell out of the way for somebody that will.

    3. It only takes one to blaze a trail. If you are not getting the funding that you need or if you are not getting the training you think you deserve be the squeaky wheel and get some grease. Frankly speaking nothing is going to change unless you want it to change. Complacency is a killer of Firemen please believe it. The fact that you spend time on here telling us all how we are stupid for making interior attacks and searching vacant buildings etc. are all opps for you to be on sites like Vententersearch.com or Fireengineering or hell even here to get training Ideas for your guys. It sounds to me like You do not want to do anything and therefore you do not want Your guys doing anything either.

    4. As always you are certainly entitled to your opinion such as I am entitled to mine. I think the LT. makes very valid points and I think that even though some of those points may not apply to Rural Firefighting I have enough common sense to take what I can use and store the rest just in case.
    And that phrase right there " Just in case " That is plenty of reason to train for the fires that you fight as well as the fires that you do not commonly fight. Yes we do ARFF Training even though the nearest Airport is 40 Miles away " Just in case" it all shakes loose and we are asked to help. Yes we do High rise training even though the nearest high rise building is out of our district " Just in case" we are called upon to assist. Eleven years in the Fire service has taught me one thing if nothing else, This business is dynamic it is always changing and no two fires are the same. No two EMS calls are the same. No two extrications are the same. While I agree to train for the fires you fight I would add that you need to train for the fires that you do not.

    And if LA does not have the props and simulators and what not you can always go to Home Depot or Lowes or any hardware or lumber yard for that matter and get the stuff to build your own and most places will even donate it.
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    Seems like someone can't accept that hindsight is 20/20. Good article.
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    I'm about 95% certain Ray is monitoring this thread... Chime on in Lt!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    I'm about 95% certain Ray is monitoring this thread... Chime on in Lt!

    Attachment 22950
    Don't drag him in to it. Sometimes after reading lala s posts, I feel like scrubbing myself with steel wool.
    ?

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    I was in Tennessee for the past few days, my wife and I went down there on a dual mission. One part was to pick up some 1 1/2 inch hose an FD was giving away (For my Mack CF), and the other was to do some reconnaissance since we are contemplating relocating down there in a few years.

    So I contact the Chief, a very young, enthusiastic man who was instantly easy to like and after he told me I could have some of the hose off we go. We pull into the station, a 3 bay wood frame pole barn, with no bathroom, no meeting room, but 3 pretty nice rigs. An engine they got with a grant, a newer tender, and a government surplus 4 door pick up with a utility body. We start taking, and he tells me their entire tax supported budget is $1500 and insurance coverage. They are pure volunteers with no compensation at all. Every other dime they operate on they raise through various fund raisers. In fact the day we stopped in they were selling fireworks and prepping for a garage sale as people drove in donating items for the sale. They took me over to their other station where they had an older pumper and a cascade truck they purchased both for $15K used. Both rigs were again nice rigs in good shape. This station was in an old brick school house where they tore a classroom out of one end, put a garage door in and a gravel floor.

    We continued to talk for a while and the chief described his fire department as a rural FD with trouble sometmes getting people to respond, pretty common in a lot of places, they run a lot of mutul aid since they are centrally located in the county. He proudly went on to tell me that they are aggressive firefighters that like to go inside when they can and put the fire out. They train to the state minimum level and then some go on to get FF1 and 2. They train inhouse and are always striving to get better.

    How can that be? Out in the sticks, minimal, to say the least tax payer funding, yet they work hard to fund the department, they train hard, and they do their very best to save lives and property. Kind of puts the whole $160K budget in perpsepctive don't you think Bobby?

    By the way, I would be proud to be on this fire department because to me, attitude is everything, and these guys have the desire and pride to keep moving forward.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-29-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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    Re: LaFireEducator;

    I'm a District Chief, 32 years on the job, in a city of over 300k.
    I cannot believe the crap that spews from his mouth. I have no doubt he wears every little bit of "firefighter" clothing available when he's out and about in daily life. Ball cap, shirt, fanny pack, etc. He's a total pretender.

    I'm all for safety, I'm all for being current in what's happening in fire science. The work of NIST and UL is outstanding. As an IC it allows me to better understand what is happening on the fireground. It gives me the "why" of how things need to be done.
    I don't hear them saying: don't go into fires, don't do a search, don't put yourself at risk. Their goal is to allow us to make smarter and better informed decisions on the fireground.

    LaFire truly does need to find another profession because he's awful at what he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Seems like someone can't accept that hindsight is 20/20. Good article.
    Hi Johnny!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    Re: LaFireEducator;

    I'm a District Chief, 32 years on the job, in a city of over 300k.
    I cannot believe the crap that spews from his mouth. I have no doubt he wears every little bit of "firefighter" clothing available when he's out and about in daily life. Ball cap, shirt, fanny pack, etc. He's a total pretender.

    I'm all for safety, I'm all for being current in what's happening in fire science. The work of NIST and UL is outstanding. As an IC it allows me to better understand what is happening on the fireground. It gives me the "why" of how things need to be done.
    I don't hear them saying: don't go into fires, don't do a search, don't put yourself at risk. Their goal is to allow us to make smarter and better informed decisions on the fireground.

    LaFire truly does need to find another profession because he's awful at what he does.
    Well said sir. Welcome to the forums
    IAFF

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