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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I was in Tennessee for the past few days, my wife and I went down there on a dual mission. One part was to pick up some 1 1/2 inch hose an FD was giving away (For my Mack CF), and the other was to do some reconnaissance since we are contemplating relocating down there in a few years.

    So I contact the Chief, a very young, enthusiastic man who was instantly easy to like and after he told me I could have some of the hose off we go. We pull into the station, a 3 bay wood frame pole barn, with no bathroom, no meeting room, but 3 pretty nice rigs. An engine they got with a grant, a newer tender, and a government surplus 4 door pick up with a utility body. We start taking, and he tells me their entire tax supported budget is $1500 and insurance coverage. They are pure volunteers with no compensation at all. Every other dime they operate on they raise through various fund raisers. In fact the day we stopped in they were selling fireworks and prepping for a garage sale as people drove in donating items for the sale. They took me over to their other station where they had an older pumper and a cascade truck they purchased both for $15K used. Both rigs were again nice rigs in good shape. This station was in an old brick school house where they tore a classroom out of one end, put a garage door in and a gravel floor.

    We continued to talk for a while and the chief described his fire department as a rural FD with trouble sometmes getting people to respond, pretty common in a lot of places, they run a lot of mutul aid since they are centrally located in the county. He proudly went on to tell me that they are aggressive firefighters that like to go inside when they can and put the fire out. They train to the state minimum level and then some go on to get FF1 and 2. They train inhouse and are always striving to get better.

    How can that be? Out in the sticks, minimal, to say the least tax payer funding, yet they work hard to fund the department, they train hard, and they do their very best to save lives and property. Kind of puts the whole $160K budget in perpsepctive don't you think Bobby?

    By the way, I would be proud to be on this fire department because to me, attitude is everything, and these guys have the desire and pride to keep moving forward.
    In other words real firefighters who use the equipment and personnel they have to dotthe best job possible, while striving to improve their ability to do said job at all times. Just to make it clear to...certain people. OH... ...note the italisized and colorized text. They're tankers on this end of the country
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Hi Johnny!!!
    Wow...where have you been hiding?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    Re: LaFireEducator;

    I'm a District Chief, 32 years on the job, in a city of over 300k.
    I cannot believe the crap that spews from his mouth. I have no doubt he wears every little bit of "firefighter" clothing available when he's out and about in daily life. Ball cap, shirt, fanny pack, etc. He's a total pretender.

    I'm all for safety, I'm all for being current in what's happening in fire science. The work of NIST and UL is outstanding. As an IC it allows me to better understand what is happening on the fireground. It gives me the "why" of how things need to be done.
    I don't hear them saying: don't go into fires, don't do a search, don't put yourself at risk. Their goal is to allow us to make smarter and better informed decisions on the fireground.

    LaFire truly does need to find another profession because he's awful at what he does.
    Welcome to the forums, Chief. I can see by your assessment of LA that you are quite perceptive.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    I feel like I'm getting a head bleed here.
    1. Because you are on a Rural FD Does not mean that you cannot train. I am on two Rural VFDs that train every week without fail. The Commonwealth of KY has a Fire Commission that has a training division with all kinds of props and simulators and trailers that have all kinds of training aids that are available to any department on request. Every Firefighter is given a unique ID Number and all of his or her fire training hours go into a statewide data base. This way there is accountability and everybody knows what the other is trained in.

    Never said that rural VFDs can't train. I have said that in many places rural VFDs may have limited access to training resources.

    2. I am sick and tired of hearing about Rural VFDs and what you think we can and cannot do in your opinion. You are giving us an undeserved black eye Bobby. Just because your little part of the world will not do what the rest of us will does not give you a license to be a cancer on the Fire service. Tow the line or get the hell out of the way for somebody that will.

    Tow the line? Sorry but every department has a different line.


    3. It only takes one to blaze a trail. If you are not getting the funding that you need or if you are not getting the training you think you deserve be the squeaky wheel and get some grease. Frankly speaking nothing is going to change unless you want it to change. Complacency is a killer of Firemen please believe it. The fact that you spend time on here telling us all how we are stupid for making interior attacks and searching vacant buildings etc. are all opps for you to be on sites like Vententersearch.com or Fireengineering or hell even here to get training Ideas for your guys. It sounds to me like You do not want to do anything and therefore you do not want Your guys doing anything either.

    If you justify your members dying or being hurt in vacant buildings have at it.


    4. As always you are certainly entitled to your opinion such as I am entitled to mine. I think the LT. makes very valid points and I think that even though some of those points may not apply to Rural Firefighting I have enough common sense to take what I can use and store the rest just in case.
    And that phrase right there " Just in case " That is plenty of reason to train for the fires that you fight as well as the fires that you do not commonly fight. Yes we do ARFF Training even though the nearest Airport is 40 Miles away " Just in case" it all shakes loose and we are asked to help. Yes we do High rise training even though the nearest high rise building is out of our district " Just in case" we are called upon to assist. Eleven years in the Fire service has taught me one thing if nothing else, This business is dynamic it is always changing and no two fires are the same. No two EMS calls are the same. No two extrications are the same. While I agree to train for the fires you fight I would add that you need to train for the fires that you do not.

    Don't have time to train the fires that we will likely never see.


    And if LA does not have the props and simulators and what not you can always go to Home Depot or Lowes or any hardware or lumber yard for that matter and get the stuff to build your own and most places will even donate it.

    Maybe, but it still comes down to time.

    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    Re: LaFireEducator;

    I'm a District Chief, 32 years on the job, in a city of over 300k.
    I cannot believe the crap that spews from his mouth. I have no doubt he wears every little bit of "firefighter" clothing available when he's out and about in daily life. Ball cap, shirt, fanny pack, etc. He's a total pretender.

    I'm all for safety, I'm all for being current in what's happening in fire science. The work of NIST and UL is outstanding. As an IC it allows me to better understand what is happening on the fireground. It gives me the "why" of how things need to be done.
    I don't hear them saying: don't go into fires, don't do a search, don't put yourself at risk. Their goal is to allow us to make smarter and better informed decisions on the fireground.

    LaFire truly does need to find another profession because he's awful at what he does.
    While I respect your position, your opinion has zero relevance in my worlds of 17,000 and 3,000.

    My job is to keep my volunteers unhurt. That is the only thing that matters to me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I was in Tennessee for the past few days, my wife and I went down there on a dual mission. One part was to pick up some 1 1/2 inch hose an FD was giving away (For my Mack CF), and the other was to do some reconnaissance since we are contemplating relocating down there in a few years.

    So I contact the Chief, a very young, enthusiastic man who was instantly easy to like and after he told me I could have some of the hose off we go. We pull into the station, a 3 bay wood frame pole barn, with no bathroom, no meeting room, but 3 pretty nice rigs. An engine they got with a grant, a newer tender, and a government surplus 4 door pick up with a utility body. We start taking, and he tells me their entire tax supported budget is $1500 and insurance coverage. They are pure volunteers with no compensation at all. Every other dime they operate on they raise through various fund raisers. In fact the day we stopped in they were selling fireworks and prepping for a garage sale as people drove in donating items for the sale. They took me over to their other station where they had an older pumper and a cascade truck they purchased both for $15K used. Both rigs were again nice rigs in good shape. This station was in an old brick school house where they tore a classroom out of one end, put a garage door in and a gravel floor.

    We continued to talk for a while and the chief described his fire department as a rural FD with trouble sometmes getting people to respond, pretty common in a lot of places, they run a lot of mutul aid since they are centrally located in the county. He proudly went on to tell me that they are aggressive firefighters that like to go inside when they can and put the fire out. They train to the state minimum level and then some go on to get FF1 and 2. They train inhouse and are always striving to get better.

    How can that be? Out in the sticks, minimal, to say the least tax payer funding, yet they work hard to fund the department, they train hard, and they do their very best to save lives and property. Kind of puts the whole $160K budget in perpsepctive don't you think Bobby?

    By the way, I would be proud to be on this fire department because to me, attitude is everything, and these guys have the desire and pride to keep moving forward.
    Nice story.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice story.
    The problem is Bobby is it is 100% true. The fact is with far less than you, in money and equipment, they do the job. They DO go interior, they do put fires out, they do make rescues, they DO THE JOB!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice story.
    Hm. Kind of hard to justify your pathetic beliefs and tactics when a department with a whole lot less is able to do a whole lot more.....
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Don't have time to train, huh? Last I checked, we all have the same amount of time per day, and even Kentland, one of the busiest vollie houses in the country, gets a few HOURS of training in per day. You're making excuses again... Why do you believe that mediocrity is acceptable?
    Last edited by ToDaRoof; 06-29-2013 at 11:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    While I respect your position, your opinion has zero relevance in my worlds of 17,000 and 3,000.

    My job is to keep my volunteers unhurt. That is the only thing that matters to me.
    So the citizens you're supposed to be protecting mean nothing to you...that pretty much says it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice story.
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.
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    In one ear and right out the other man. Can you not see that the training is what helps keep your men safe and unhurt?
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun View Post
    So the citizens you're supposed to be protecting mean nothing to you...that pretty much says it all.
    Making our members the priority does not mean that we don't care about the citizens.

    It simply represents the fact that we understand that as officers we have an obligation to make sure that all of our members go home. All the time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-30-2013 at 11:31 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    In one ear and right out the other man. Can you not see that the training is what helps keep your men safe and unhurt?
    And where do I support not training the members?

    The department has increased weekly training attendance requirements for interior members. The department has increased the training budget allowing more out of town training then ever before. Th department has increased the number of live fire training burns.

    And I have pushed for and supported all of that.

    We are also currently in the process of building a couple of very basic live fire training props at our new station now that we have the land.

    So where exactly have I or the department not supported training?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem is Bobby is it is 100% true. The fact is with far less than you, in money and equipment, they do the job. They DO go interior, they do put fires out, they do make rescues, they DO THE JOB!
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    Doing the job is responding and doing what your tools and training allows while keeping every member safe. And I think we both agree on that.

    That is where we disagree.

    I'm not hung up on performing interior ops. In a perfect world, I would be able to go interior whenever I wish, but that's not going to happen with our current manpower and experience levels, so I'm perfectly happy with a well conducted exterior attack until the AMA engine, or additional members from our own department arrives. I know that doesn't make you happy, or makes you think that we are not "doing the job", but hey, that's life.

    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    [QUOTE=slackjawedyokel;1375064]maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Posted by Bobby
    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.
    Why is it "my, my, my and I, I, I" but when you get questioned or called out on it it is the "Chief's" decision?
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Posted by Bobby


    Why is it "my, my, my and I, I, I" but when you get questioned or called out on it it is the "Chief's" decision?
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    .
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-30-2013 at 11:32 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    .
    Good to know the pathetic culture in your VFD comes from the top down.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375073]
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    If you spend more time making excuses than finding solutions, its false pride.
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    [QUOTE=slackjawedyokel;1375091]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    If you spend more time making excuses than finding solutions, its false pride.
    after tying that response -Jeff Foxworthy came to mind. See the off duty forums
    ?

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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375072]And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    This is the problem in a nutshell. You think you get to define the job. You don't get to define the job. It is what it is. Either you do it or you don't. It is not possible to apply your level of safety expectations to firefighting. Striving for perfection is fine as long as you accept that you'll never attain it.
    That being said, I wouldn't presume to tell you how to operate on the fireground with the unique personnel, resources and staffing limitations you have. That's the decision of the IC (whoever that may be) on the scene. Considering today's extreme and volatile structural fire environments, I would guess that your approach is often appropriate.
    I have no doubt that there are many individuals out there making fire attack decisions who have no business doing so. It's not their fault; they're just trying to do the right thing. But they are unprepared to really evaluate the situation and come up with a plan, whether it be extinguishment or agressive search and rescue w/o a hoseline. They don't have the resources they really need because the public doesn't think much about the fire service unless and until they actually need us.
    I believe too many departments are getting by on a combination of determination, guts and luck. That combination will eventually fail, sometimes with tragic results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    It's easy how I define your job, teach fire prevention and hand out coloring books to children in the hope that maybe your teachings MAY prevent a fire.

    My job as a firefighter is to respond to emergencies in the community I serve and do my best to mitigate the situation. That means when conditions allow, entering a struture on fire to affect rescues and extinguish the fire. It also means going interior to do other aspects of my job, such as responding to CO alarms, hazardous spills, electrical problems, problems with furnaces, wild animals in the home, and so much more. None of it involves standing outside waiting for a neighboring FD to come in and do the job my leadership won't allow me to do.



    Doing the job is responding and doing what your tools and training allows while keeping every member safe. And I think we both agree on that.

    You agree that allows you to stand outside, break a window and spray water in, waiting for your AMA FD to actually fight the fire interior.

    That is where we disagree.

    Explain to me how a department with 100 times less budget than you, in a remote rural part of their state, can get their guys trained and up to speed more rapidly than your VFD, then send them to get higher certs if they want them, and get called to respond to almost every fire in their county? They were proud of their ability to do interior firefighting when possible and save the property of their citizens. So yes, we disagree on how you define the job, effective training, and leadership.

    I'm not hung up on performing interior ops. In a perfect world, I would be able to go interior whenever I wish, but that's not going to happen with our current manpower and experience levels, so I'm perfectly happy with a well conducted exterior attack until the AMA engine, or additional members from our own department arrives. I know that doesn't make you happy, or makes you think that we are not "doing the job", but hey, that's life.

    Um, duh, on the you don't want to go in. Even when you have another interior firefighter there with you, the knowledge that your AMA FD is mere minutes away, and you are "Ducking in" to take a peak.

    The part you don't understand Bobby, and never will, is the only reason people battle your Bull Schitt is because you try to make it the standard for the entire fire service. You push your agenda on here as if you are some nationally known expert when the truth is you re nothing but a little fish is your little 1/4 inch pond. No one gives a damn what you do in Bossier Parrish, or on your VFD, and that is the truth, the only reason anyone cares at all is your attempt to spread your nonsense here on FH.com. You are a cancer, the worst example of the pussification of the fire service. Wear the uniform, put on the gear, spend the tax payer's money and then don't have the honor or human decency to tell them the truth about what you offer in the form of fire protection. Pathetic.


    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.

    Well, since you stand outside, unless you are "Ducking in", preventing your guys from going in, I would suspect the experience level won't change much until you retire.

    As others have said, maybe if you re-evaluated your FDs public image you might find it easier to recruit community members. People generally want to be involved in well run organizations with good reputations.
    More of the same nothingness from you Bobby.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where do I support not training the members?

    The department has increased weekly training attendance requirements for interior members. The department has increased the training budget allowing more out of town training then ever before. Th department has increased the number of live fire training burns.

    And I have pushed for and supported all of that.

    We are also currently in the process of building a couple of very basic live fire training props at our new station now that we have the land.

    So where exactly have I or the department not supported training?
    How do you train those guys that work 80 hours a week? Or that are out of town for days or weeks at a time?
    conrad427 likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    Dance and spin, change the story once again to fit your needs. One minute you have no power, the next you are making decisions.

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    Golly, you mean like every other adult?

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    Yepper, just like lying to the board and the citizens...You both are quite comfoatable with that.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    Of course, it fits nicely into your yard breathing philosophy.
    .
    More of the same Bobby.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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