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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375073]
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    This is some of the funniest Schitt I have ever seen you post on here.
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    Well Guys and Gals seems we are still at it, but nice to see the world of FH hasn't stopped why I was away lol. But one quick ? do you ever feel like you are just beating your head against a brick wall trying to talk some sense into LA. Ok Ok I should have know the answer to that one sorry. But any way I was wondering if LA has every heard of a transitional attack? Now for case study sake I will use my own Dept. for this one, just the other day last Thursday to be exact we were toned out for a residential fire. Tone time was 13:00 hrs responded with am 3 man engine crew and the Fire Chief went pov, other members were enroute to the station and were to respond the tanker. When the tones dropped we did call for mutual aid from the paid dept. down the road. Chief get's on scene and does his 360 and notifies income units that there is heavy smoke and flames showing from the gable above the garage. The engine check's on scene and one member pulls the 1 3/4 inch attack line with the other pumps the engine and the third grabs tools and heads to the front door when the member that was laying out hose gets to the door they do an interior primary search while the Fire Chief does an exterior attack on the attic fire. Mutual aid engine arrives and they are also running a 3 man crew at the same time our tanker arrives with 2 more members. So just to make sure we are all on the same page we now have 9 people on scene only 8 are certified firefighters, so lets take the chief out of this and we are now down to 7 certified people on scene as manpower became available we did do an interior attack and saved over 95% of the house. So lesson on this call if you do something with little it just might save something big in the end. We also know that a transitional attack were you go from exterior to interior saves property. So to sum it all up 7 FireFighter's saved a house by using Training and Motivation. Oh and by the way just as a side note no one got even the smallest boo-boo doing any of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine Asst Chief View Post
    Well Guys and Gals seems we are still at it, but nice to see the world of FH hasn't stopped why I was away lol. But one quick ? do you ever feel like you are just beating your head against a brick wall trying to talk some sense into LA. Ok Ok I should have know the answer to that one sorry. But any way I was wondering if LA has every heard of a transitional attack? Now for case study sake I will use my own Dept. for this one, just the other day last Thursday to be exact we were toned out for a residential fire. Tone time was 13:00 hrs responded with am 3 man engine crew and the Fire Chief went pov, other members were enroute to the station and were to respond the tanker. When the tones dropped we did call for mutual aid from the paid dept. down the road. Chief get's on scene and does his 360 and notifies income units that there is heavy smoke and flames showing from the gable above the garage. The engine check's on scene and one member pulls the 1 3/4 inch attack line with the other pumps the engine and the third grabs tools and heads to the front door when the member that was laying out hose gets to the door they do an interior primary search while the Fire Chief does an exterior attack on the attic fire. Mutual aid engine arrives and they are also running a 3 man crew at the same time our tanker arrives with 2 more members. So just to make sure we are all on the same page we now have 9 people on scene only 8 are certified firefighters, so lets take the chief out of this and we are now down to 7 certified people on scene as manpower became available we did do an interior attack and saved over 95% of the house. So lesson on this call if you do something with little it just might save something big in the end. We also know that a transitional attack were you go from exterior to interior saves property. So to sum it all up 7 FireFighter's saved a house by using Training and Motivation. Oh and by the way just as a side note no one got even the smallest boo-boo doing any of this.
    Sabine Chief ...

    My VFD implemented transitional attack about a year ago, led by myself and the Training Captain after I attended FDIC and took a class on the topic.

    We have a 100 2.5" line with a smooth-bore tip on every engine dedicated to this purpose.

    It was becoming apparent that our manpower levels were dropping and that an exterior attack while waiting for either more manpower from our own department or the closest mutual aid engine was the way to knock down the fire without having to make entry short staffed, while waiting for more resources.

    Since then, our responding manpower has dropped even further and we have implemented formal automatic mutual aid with the neighboring department on every structural call.

    In fact we transitional attack with an 1 3/4" line at our last structure fire, and it knocked own the majority of the fire while we waited for the AMA engine from the neighboring small city as we did not have enough interior personnel, without committing the only officer, who was in command, interior on the line.

    The fact is that in most cases we no longer have the manpower to make entry initially without committing the incident commander on the handline.

    I have no expectations that our manpower situation is going to change in the short-term, and quite frankly have no expectations for any significant long term manpower changes either, so this is the way that we will likely have to operate for the foreseeable future.

    The fact is that I will not risk any injury to my men for property. The priority for me at least is that they all are fully able to report to their full-time jobs the next morning, and the sad reality is that in our area, given the travel times, it is highly unlikely that any trapped occupants would be viable by the time we arrived, and simply again, not worth the risk to my personnel given the likely volume of fire on arrival.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that I will not risk any injury to my men for property. The priority for me at least is that they all are fully able to report to their full-time jobs the next morning, and the sad reality is that in our area, given the travel times, it is highly unlikely that any trapped occupants would be viable by the time we arrived, and simply again, not worth the risk to my personnel given the likely volume of fire on arrival.
    A simple:

    "My VFD and I are pathetic and we really don't like doing the job, so we just pretend."

    Would have been adequate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.
    You and your department can decide what tasks and services it will provide under the guise of being a "fire department" and at what level of competence they will be provided, but this doesn't change what "the job" is. It's not about what others, you and I think "the job" is or should be. What "the job" is was defined long before any of us went to our first call. We don't get to individually re-define what "the job" is.

    Think of it this way, you were born as a male I presume. Science specifically and society to a large extent have defined what constitutes a human male and human female. You could start wearing dresses and make up, acting like and calling yourself a female (assuming you don't already do any of these things ), but the hard reality is that until your outie becomes an innie, you ARE a male.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sabine Chief ...

    My VFD implemented transitional attack about a year ago, led by myself and the Training Captain after I attended FDIC and took a class on the topic.

    We have a 100 2.5" line with a smooth-bore tip on every engine dedicated to this purpose.

    It was becoming apparent that our manpower levels were dropping and that an exterior attack while waiting for either more manpower from our own department or the closest mutual aid engine was the way to knock down the fire without having to make entry short staffed, while waiting for more resources.

    Since then, our responding manpower has dropped even further and we have implemented formal automatic mutual aid with the neighboring department on every structural call.

    In fact we transitional attack with an 1 3/4" line at our last structure fire, and it knocked own the majority of the fire while we waited for the AMA engine from the neighboring small city as we did not have enough interior personnel, without committing the only officer, who was in command, interior on the line.

    The fact is that in most cases we no longer have the manpower to make entry initially without committing the incident commander on the handline.

    I have no expectations that our manpower situation is going to change in the short-term, and quite frankly have no expectations for any significant long term manpower changes either, so this is the way that we will likely have to operate for the foreseeable future.

    The fact is that I will not risk any injury to my men for property. The priority for me at least is that they all are fully able to report to their full-time jobs the next morning, and the sad reality is that in our area, given the travel times, it is highly unlikely that any trapped occupants would be viable by the time we arrived, and simply again, not worth the risk to my personnel given the likely volume of fire on arrival.
    Funny thing LA is you implemented transitional attack about a year ago...I was teaching it over 30 years ago. We just didn't have the fancy name of transitional attack. By the way, the only reason it is transitional in your case is the AMA FD shows up and does the dirty work for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Funny thing LA is you implemented transitional attack about a year ago...I was teaching it over 30 years ago. We just didn't have the fancy name of transitional attack. By the way, the only reason it is transitional in your case is the AMA FD shows up and does the dirty work for you.
    I think most of us have been using it for the past 30 years, and as you said, it really didn't have a name. The only difference is that it is now a formalized tactic.

    And I have no issues with admitting that in most, but not all, cases we simply don't have the interior trained manpower to operate as we would like, and that we have made arrangements to have an additional department respond that can provide that manpower.

    There is no shame at all in that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You and your department can decide what tasks and services it will provide under the guise of being a "fire department" and at what level of competence they will be provided, but this doesn't change what "the job" is. It's not about what others, you and I think "the job" is or should be. What "the job" is was defined long before any of us went to our first call. We don't get to individually re-define what "the job" is.

    Think of it this way, you were born as a male I presume. Science specifically and society to a large extent have defined what constitutes a human male and human female. You could start wearing dresses and make up, acting like and calling yourself a female (assuming you don't already do any of these things ), but the hard reality is that until your outie becomes an innie, you ARE a male.
    I understand perfectly. Usually no one gets my analogies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I think most of us have been using it for the past 30 years, and as you said, it really didn't have a name. The only difference is that it is now a formalized tactic.

    It was a "Formailized Tactic" back then too. Otherwise how could we have taught it? The difference today is some new wave firefighting genius decided to label it, then push the tactic as the answer to everything.

    And I have no issues with admitting that in most, but not all, cases we simply don't have the interior trained manpower to operate as we would like, and that we have made arrangements to have an additional department respond that can provide that manpower.

    The problem is not admitting it to yourself and your chief, it is your refusal to tell the board and the citizens the truth.

    There is no shame at all in that.

    The shame is in the deception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    While I respect your position, your opinion has zero relevance in my worlds of 17,000 and 3,000.

    My job is to keep my volunteers unhurt. That is the only thing that matters to me.
    So protecting the property and lives of those you serve and who PAY your salary means nothing to you? Have you told them that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    So protecting the property and lives of those you serve and who PAY your salary means nothing to you? Have you told them that?
    First of all, it's a volunteer department.

    Secondly, we are the priority. Always will be.

    That doesn't mean that protecting the public isn't critical, but the bottom line is I have an obligation to protect my members first and foremost. Then I worry about the needs of the citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    So protecting the property and lives of those you serve and who PAY your salary means nothing to you? Have you told them that?
    No, because the volunteers don't get paid a salary they have no duty to act. Makes sense right?!?!?!?
    He does not consider the investment of over 100G's by the citizens an adequate amount to perform.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First of all, it's a volunteer department.

    Secondly, we are the priority. Always will be.

    That doesn't mean that protecting the public isn't critical, but the bottom line is I have an obligation to protect my members first and foremost. Then I worry about the needs of the citizens.
    I know it's a volunteer dept. But do YOU not get paid?

    Look, I'm a pretty reasonable guy and having put 32 years (and counting) into my dept. I've been around the block a few times.
    I do understand your position in terms of resources and manpower, but what I don't understand is your attitude.

    I care a great deal about the guys I work with. I have a far closer bond with them than you have with your men (based on a recent post where you said there is not much time for bonding). I've spent decades with these guys in the fire house and off the job. I'm sure as hell not going to risk anyone's life over nothing.
    But at the same time we've got a job to do and there is risk associated with that job.

    For some reason you seem to want to make your views and philosophies the standard by which we should all be aiming for. By why would any of us want to set our sights so low?
    You've got a completely disinterested membership that you have great difficulty motivating (perhaps you might want to rethink your training and leadership skills). You have poor response, poor training and poor attitude.
    Why do you insist on trying to paint us with the same brush?

    The truth is you have nothing to offer any of us, and yet you insist on flooding these boards. You are a pretender in so many ways I don't have the time or energy to list them all.
    We get it- your dept. stinks, your response stinks, your membership stinks, everyone is more concerned with their day jobs than with firefighting, blah, blah, blah.
    That is the personal hell you are assigned to. You seem unwilling/unable to try to change it and so you seek to drag us along for the ride.
    Sorry, but this ride you take alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    No, because the volunteers don't get paid a salary they have no duty to act. Makes sense right?!?!?!?
    He does not consider the investment of over 100G's by the citizens an adequate amount to perform.


    Where did I say that we have no duty to act?

    I will act, but only after I have assured the safety of my crew.

    And yes, in some cases that very well mean delaying interior operations until there are sufficient personnel on scene to staff backup lines and be able to perform RIT functions.

    Our safety comes first. Always.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Where did I say that we have no duty to act?

    You have said repeatedly that you WON'T act. If you WON'T act surely you must believe you don't have a duty to act.

    I will act, but only after I have assured the safety of my crew.

    It is absolutely, undeniably, impossible, to 100% assure the safety of your crew during response, during actions on the fireground, and while returning.

    And yes, in some cases that very well mean delaying interior operations until there are sufficient personnel on scene to staff backup lines and be able to perform RIT functions.

    The only instance where you haven't "delayed" was where your chief violated every single safety rule you preach about and went in and put the fire out. Otherwise the rest of what you talk about here NEVER occurs unless your AMA FD is on scene.

    Our safety comes first. Always.

    Then quit and learn basket weaving or knitting. Because whether you like it or not firefighting, even done as safely as possible is still inherently a dangerous job. You are delusional if you believe otherwise.
    You just keep saying the samw things and they still don't make any sense at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    I know it's a volunteer dept. But do YOU not get paid?

    Look, I'm a pretty reasonable guy and having put 32 years (and counting) into my dept. I've been around the block a few times.
    I do understand your position in terms of resources and manpower, but what I don't understand is your attitude.

    I care a great deal about the guys I work with. I have a far closer bond with them than you have with your men (based on a recent post where you said there is not much time for bonding). I've spent decades with these guys in the fire house and off the job. I'm sure as hell not going to risk anyone's life over nothing.
    But at the same time we've got a job to do and there is risk associated with that job.

    For some reason you seem to want to make your views and philosophies the standard by which we should all be aiming for. By why would any of us want to set our sights so low?
    You've got a completely disinterested membership that you have great difficulty motivating (perhaps you might want to rethink your training and leadership skills). You have poor response, poor training and poor attitude.
    Why do you insist on trying to paint us with the same brush?

    The truth is you have nothing to offer any of us, and yet you insist on flooding these boards. You are a pretender in so many ways I don't have the time or energy to list them all.
    We get it- your dept. stinks, your response stinks, your membership stinks, everyone is more concerned with their day jobs than with firefighting, blah, blah, blah.
    That is the personal hell you are assigned to. You seem unwilling/unable to try to change it and so you seek to drag us along for the ride.
    Sorry, but this ride you take alone.
    Bing-freaking-o!
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    You have said repeatedly that you WON'T act. If you WON'T act surely you must believe you don't have a duty to act.

    And where have I said that I will not act?

    Even if there is not enough of our interior manpower on-scene before the AMA engine I will order forcible entry. I will order an exterior attack. I will control utilities.

    So I will act. I just will not act in manner that you want me to before there is enough members on scene to assure their safety.



    It is absolutely, undeniably, impossible, to 100% assure the safety of your crew during response, during actions on the fireground, and while returning.

    True, but acting without sufficient manpower simply to meet the expectations of the public is not the way to assure a high level of safety.

    I will operate interior when I have an adequate number of personnel to insure that they are operating in a safe a manner possible, especially when simply saving property.

    And that takes priority over the needs of the public.



    The only instance where you haven't "delayed" was where your chief violated every single safety rule you preach about and went in and put the fire out. Otherwise the rest of what you talk about here NEVER occurs unless your AMA FD is on scene.

    And that will be the reality for the foreseeable future at the majority of our structural fires.


    Then quit and learn basket weaving or knitting. Because whether you like it or not firefighting, even done as safely as possible is still inherently a dangerous job. You are delusional if you believe otherwise.

    What I believe if that my tactics are driven by the resources on scene and not by the incident, I can keep my members safe.

    If that means exterior attack only, fine. if that means waiting for the AMA engine, fine. if that means not entering a building that others may make an interior attack on, I'm OK with that as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What I believe if that my tactics are driven by the resources on scene and not by the incident, I can keep my members safe.

    If that means exterior attack only, fine. if that means waiting for the AMA engine, fine. if that means not entering a building that others may make an interior attack on, I'm OK with that as well.
    Which is fine since we've established that a six year old boy and a dog in Australia provide a better rescue capability than your merry band of nitwits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    I know it's a volunteer dept. But do YOU not get paid?

    Yes, i also work for full-time for a combination department. However. I respond on very limited suppression runs.

    Look, I'm a pretty reasonable guy and having put 32 years (and counting) into my dept. I've been around the block a few times.
    I do understand your position in terms of resources and manpower, but what I don't understand is your attitude.

    I care a great deal about the guys I work with. I have a far closer bond with them than you have with your men (based on a recent post where you said there is not much time for bonding). I've spent decades with these guys in the fire house and off the job. I'm sure as hell not going to risk anyone's life over nothing.
    But at the same time we've got a job to do and there is risk associated with that job.

    And the risk needs to be balanced by the resources. When there are enough resources to support the risks, such as in my combo department, fine. But in a department with limited resources they need to recognize that they can only take very limited risks.

    For some reason you seem to want to make your views and philosophies the standard by which we should all be aiming for.

    No, but there should be a realization by those with adequate resources that those with lesser resources can accomplish much less, and take much less risk, on the fireground.

    By why would any of us want to set our sights so low?

    Sights should be set on the resources. My issue is members with resources expecting those of us with far fewer resources to set our sights higher than the resources safely allow.
    You've got a completely disinterested membership that you have great difficulty motivating (perhaps you might want to rethink your training and leadership skills).

    No. We have a membership that sees firefighting as a part of thier life comparable with hunting, fishing and other stuff. And much of our membership works 70-80 hours a week in oil, gas and construction and have limited time to train and respond.


    You have poor response, poor training and poor attitude.

    Yes, we have a limited response. Training is good. Attitude is excellent. Time is the issue and likely will be until we have more members to spread the load.

    Why do you insist on trying to paint us with the same brush?

    I insist on stating that many rural departments have the same issues limiting their capabilities.
    When the members, or some of the members, stop disparaging rural VFD s that can't do the job to thier high and mighty standards, i will be happy to leave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When the members, or some of the members, stop disparaging rural VFD s that can't do the job to thier high and mighty standards, i will be happy to leave.
    Why are you the only swinging dick that constantly beats this drum? Don't you think that if it was as big as problem as you say that there would be several people in the rural fire departments agreeing with you?

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    NINE F***ING years here and you still haven't figured out the quote function.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You have said repeatedly that you WON'T act. If you WON'T act surely you must believe you don't have a duty to act.

    And where have I said that I will not act?

    Oh you do some exterior stuff, spraying water in in your phony attempt to claim transitional attack, unfortunately YOU and YOUR VFD don't transition, you wait for the CAREER AMA FD to transition. So the truth is ALL YOU DO is an exterior attack, NOT the transitional attack you claim to embrace. If the AMA didn't show up you would continue to spray water in until the fire miraculously went out, you burned the house down, or you floated it off its foundation.

    You have said repeatedly that there are types of building you will not enter and if you are command you will order no one to enter, even before you arrive and do a 360. These are simply from construction type. You have claimed over and over you will not enter unless everything is perfect. That LA is failure to act.


    Even if there is not enough of our interior manpower on-scene before the AMA engine I will order forcible entry. I will order an exterior attack. I will control utilities.

    Blah blah blah, and if the AMA doesn't show up because they have their own incident the building will be lost and so will the lives of any victims you refuse to even attempt to rescue.

    So I will act. I just will not act in manner that you want me to before there is enough members on scene to assure their safety.


    I don't give a damn how you act, or refuse to act in your little vfd world. Do whatever you wish, THERE. Frankly, it has no effect on me whatsoever. My issue with you is your spreading your absolute nonsense like it is the new norm and lying to your board and citizens is okay.

    It is absolutely, undeniably, impossible, to 100% assure the safety of your crew during response, during actions on the fireground, and while returning.

    True, but acting without sufficient manpower simply to meet the expectations of the public is not the way to assure a high level of safety.

    Yet story after story after story has been told to you by people here that see more fire in a year than you have ever seen, or will see, has talked about working/active command, using first in resources aggressively and interior, when it is known more are coming. You hide behind safety as an excuse for inaction. The rest of us operate as safely as we can still understanding that our citizens expect more of us than just be spectators at their emergency.

    I will operate interior when I have an adequate number of personnel to insure that they are operating in a safe a manner possible, especially when simply saving property.

    Which is NEVER, and you expect it to be NEVER, and you are okay with it being NEVER. Sad, pathetic and a lie to your citizens and your board. Without your AMA, the odds of your vfd EVER going interior are slightly less than the odds of a snowball surviving in hell for very long.

    And that takes priority over the needs of the public.


    Not the thought process of the vast, overwhelming majority of the fire service.

    The only instance where you haven't "delayed" was where your chief violated every single safety rule you preach about and went in and put the fire out. Otherwise the rest of what you talk about here NEVER occurs unless your AMA FD is on scene.

    And that will be the reality for the foreseeable future at the majority of our structural fires.


    So it is okay for your chief to violate safety rules, including failure to wear proper PPE and SCBA, have no hoseline, have no back up team, have no RIT in place and the AMA FD not on location...But with 5 guys on scene you can't go interior? Yeah, that makes sense Mr Duck in and take a look.

    Then quit and learn basket weaving or knitting. Because whether you like it or not firefighting, even done as safely as possible is still inherently a dangerous job. You are delusional if you believe otherwise.

    What I believe if that my tactics are driven by the resources on scene and not by the incident, I can keep my members safe.

    Then in many cases the outcome would be no different if you responded or not since your AMA FD does your interior firefighting for you.

    If that means exterior attack only, fine. if that means waiting for the AMA engine, fine. if that means not entering a building that others may make an interior attack on, I'm OK with that as well.


    Of course you are because it allows you to perpetuate the sham...
    More of your same excuses and Bul Schitt.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  22. #397
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    FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When the members, or some of the members, stop disparaging rural VFD s that can't do the job to thier high and mighty standards, i will be happy to leave.
    No you won't. Your narcissistic personality won't allow you to leave. You not only need the attention, you crave it, and frankly can't live without it.

    You were the kind of kid that your mom had to put bacon in your pocket to get the dog to play with you...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  23. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When the members, or some of the members, stop disparaging rural VFD s that can't do the job to thier high and mighty standards, i will be happy to leave.
    There are rural FD's that do the job.. it is you who refuses to accept the fact.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Why are you the only swinging dick that constantly beats this drum? Don't you think that if it was as big as problem as you say that there would be several people in the rural fire departments agreeing with you?
    Oh it's a problem all right. We have all the problems LA describes right here in our department. The difference is that some of us are go getters and do not let the defeatist elements in our ranks call the shots. We believe that the citizens we swore to protect are the priority and we make adjustments and stay flexible in order to do the job right.


    The problem is probably every bit as big as LA thinks it is. If you allow yourself to be ruled by fear you can find about a million reasons to not do the job. Thankfully, Rural VFD's may be screwed up but at least a lot of them still do the job everyday.
    Last edited by conrad427; 07-04-2013 at 10:27 AM.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  25. #400
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    Certainly I'm not the only one that caught "I will order forceable entry.." Opening a flow path and venting the building so it will burn faster?

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