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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice story.
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.
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  2. #362
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    In one ear and right out the other man. Can you not see that the training is what helps keep your men safe and unhurt?
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun View Post
    So the citizens you're supposed to be protecting mean nothing to you...that pretty much says it all.
    Making our members the priority does not mean that we don't care about the citizens.

    It simply represents the fact that we understand that as officers we have an obligation to make sure that all of our members go home. All the time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-30-2013 at 10:31 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    In one ear and right out the other man. Can you not see that the training is what helps keep your men safe and unhurt?
    And where do I support not training the members?

    The department has increased weekly training attendance requirements for interior members. The department has increased the training budget allowing more out of town training then ever before. Th department has increased the number of live fire training burns.

    And I have pushed for and supported all of that.

    We are also currently in the process of building a couple of very basic live fire training props at our new station now that we have the land.

    So where exactly have I or the department not supported training?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem is Bobby is it is 100% true. The fact is with far less than you, in money and equipment, they do the job. They DO go interior, they do put fires out, they do make rescues, they DO THE JOB!
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    Doing the job is responding and doing what your tools and training allows while keeping every member safe. And I think we both agree on that.

    That is where we disagree.

    I'm not hung up on performing interior ops. In a perfect world, I would be able to go interior whenever I wish, but that's not going to happen with our current manpower and experience levels, so I'm perfectly happy with a well conducted exterior attack until the AMA engine, or additional members from our own department arrives. I know that doesn't make you happy, or makes you think that we are not "doing the job", but hey, that's life.

    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #366
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    [QUOTE=slackjawedyokel;1375064]maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #367
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Posted by Bobby
    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.
    Why is it "my, my, my and I, I, I" but when you get questioned or called out on it it is the "Chief's" decision?
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Posted by Bobby


    Why is it "my, my, my and I, I, I" but when you get questioned or called out on it it is the "Chief's" decision?
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    .
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-30-2013 at 10:32 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #369
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    .
    Good to know the pathetic culture in your VFD comes from the top down.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #370
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375073]
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    If you spend more time making excuses than finding solutions, its false pride.
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  11. #371
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    [QUOTE=slackjawedyokel;1375091]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    If you spend more time making excuses than finding solutions, its false pride.
    after tying that response -Jeff Foxworthy came to mind. See the off duty forums
    ?

  12. #372
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375072]And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    This is the problem in a nutshell. You think you get to define the job. You don't get to define the job. It is what it is. Either you do it or you don't. It is not possible to apply your level of safety expectations to firefighting. Striving for perfection is fine as long as you accept that you'll never attain it.
    That being said, I wouldn't presume to tell you how to operate on the fireground with the unique personnel, resources and staffing limitations you have. That's the decision of the IC (whoever that may be) on the scene. Considering today's extreme and volatile structural fire environments, I would guess that your approach is often appropriate.
    I have no doubt that there are many individuals out there making fire attack decisions who have no business doing so. It's not their fault; they're just trying to do the right thing. But they are unprepared to really evaluate the situation and come up with a plan, whether it be extinguishment or agressive search and rescue w/o a hoseline. They don't have the resources they really need because the public doesn't think much about the fire service unless and until they actually need us.
    I believe too many departments are getting by on a combination of determination, guts and luck. That combination will eventually fail, sometimes with tragic results.

  13. #373
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.

    It's easy how I define your job, teach fire prevention and hand out coloring books to children in the hope that maybe your teachings MAY prevent a fire.

    My job as a firefighter is to respond to emergencies in the community I serve and do my best to mitigate the situation. That means when conditions allow, entering a struture on fire to affect rescues and extinguish the fire. It also means going interior to do other aspects of my job, such as responding to CO alarms, hazardous spills, electrical problems, problems with furnaces, wild animals in the home, and so much more. None of it involves standing outside waiting for a neighboring FD to come in and do the job my leadership won't allow me to do.



    Doing the job is responding and doing what your tools and training allows while keeping every member safe. And I think we both agree on that.

    You agree that allows you to stand outside, break a window and spray water in, waiting for your AMA FD to actually fight the fire interior.

    That is where we disagree.

    Explain to me how a department with 100 times less budget than you, in a remote rural part of their state, can get their guys trained and up to speed more rapidly than your VFD, then send them to get higher certs if they want them, and get called to respond to almost every fire in their county? They were proud of their ability to do interior firefighting when possible and save the property of their citizens. So yes, we disagree on how you define the job, effective training, and leadership.

    I'm not hung up on performing interior ops. In a perfect world, I would be able to go interior whenever I wish, but that's not going to happen with our current manpower and experience levels, so I'm perfectly happy with a well conducted exterior attack until the AMA engine, or additional members from our own department arrives. I know that doesn't make you happy, or makes you think that we are not "doing the job", but hey, that's life.

    Um, duh, on the you don't want to go in. Even when you have another interior firefighter there with you, the knowledge that your AMA FD is mere minutes away, and you are "Ducking in" to take a peak.

    The part you don't understand Bobby, and never will, is the only reason people battle your Bull Schitt is because you try to make it the standard for the entire fire service. You push your agenda on here as if you are some nationally known expert when the truth is you re nothing but a little fish is your little 1/4 inch pond. No one gives a damn what you do in Bossier Parrish, or on your VFD, and that is the truth, the only reason anyone cares at all is your attempt to spread your nonsense here on FH.com. You are a cancer, the worst example of the pussification of the fire service. Wear the uniform, put on the gear, spend the tax payer's money and then don't have the honor or human decency to tell them the truth about what you offer in the form of fire protection. Pathetic.


    When my manpower or experience levels change, Ill reassess my tactics, but for now, it's what I need to do to keep my members, in my mind, safe.

    Well, since you stand outside, unless you are "Ducking in", preventing your guys from going in, I would suspect the experience level won't change much until you retire.

    As others have said, maybe if you re-evaluated your FDs public image you might find it easier to recruit community members. People generally want to be involved in well run organizations with good reputations.
    More of the same nothingness from you Bobby.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  14. #374
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where do I support not training the members?

    The department has increased weekly training attendance requirements for interior members. The department has increased the training budget allowing more out of town training then ever before. Th department has increased the number of live fire training burns.

    And I have pushed for and supported all of that.

    We are also currently in the process of building a couple of very basic live fire training props at our new station now that we have the land.

    So where exactly have I or the department not supported training?
    How do you train those guys that work 80 hours a week? Or that are out of town for days or weeks at a time?
    conrad427 likes this.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  15. #375
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As the IC, the tactics that I choose are a personal choice, and the concequences are my responsibility

    Dance and spin, change the story once again to fit your needs. One minute you have no power, the next you are making decisions.

    I take full responsibility for things that I can control.

    Golly, you mean like every other adult?

    The Chief has the responsibility and the final decision in terms of the implementation of operating policies and guidelines, which if implemented, I must follow. Yes, I have input into those policies and guidelines, but in the end it is the Chief's call.

    Yepper, just like lying to the board and the citizens...You both are quite comfoatable with that.

    And while I do have some minor disagreements, especially over training with my volunteer Chief, there frankly is very little that I disagree with in terms of department operations and priorities.

    Of course, it fits nicely into your yard breathing philosophy.
    .
    More of the same Bobby.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  16. #376
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1375073]
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    maybe you should take notes lala - its called pride and dedication -you cant buy it , or im sure we would all pass the hat to buy you some.[/QUOTE

    I fully understand pride and dedication.

    And I have it in my VFD. And so do most of the members.
    This is some of the funniest Schitt I have ever seen you post on here.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

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    Well Guys and Gals seems we are still at it, but nice to see the world of FH hasn't stopped why I was away lol. But one quick ? do you ever feel like you are just beating your head against a brick wall trying to talk some sense into LA. Ok Ok I should have know the answer to that one sorry. But any way I was wondering if LA has every heard of a transitional attack? Now for case study sake I will use my own Dept. for this one, just the other day last Thursday to be exact we were toned out for a residential fire. Tone time was 13:00 hrs responded with am 3 man engine crew and the Fire Chief went pov, other members were enroute to the station and were to respond the tanker. When the tones dropped we did call for mutual aid from the paid dept. down the road. Chief get's on scene and does his 360 and notifies income units that there is heavy smoke and flames showing from the gable above the garage. The engine check's on scene and one member pulls the 1 3/4 inch attack line with the other pumps the engine and the third grabs tools and heads to the front door when the member that was laying out hose gets to the door they do an interior primary search while the Fire Chief does an exterior attack on the attic fire. Mutual aid engine arrives and they are also running a 3 man crew at the same time our tanker arrives with 2 more members. So just to make sure we are all on the same page we now have 9 people on scene only 8 are certified firefighters, so lets take the chief out of this and we are now down to 7 certified people on scene as manpower became available we did do an interior attack and saved over 95% of the house. So lesson on this call if you do something with little it just might save something big in the end. We also know that a transitional attack were you go from exterior to interior saves property. So to sum it all up 7 FireFighter's saved a house by using Training and Motivation. Oh and by the way just as a side note no one got even the smallest boo-boo doing any of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine Asst Chief View Post
    Well Guys and Gals seems we are still at it, but nice to see the world of FH hasn't stopped why I was away lol. But one quick ? do you ever feel like you are just beating your head against a brick wall trying to talk some sense into LA. Ok Ok I should have know the answer to that one sorry. But any way I was wondering if LA has every heard of a transitional attack? Now for case study sake I will use my own Dept. for this one, just the other day last Thursday to be exact we were toned out for a residential fire. Tone time was 13:00 hrs responded with am 3 man engine crew and the Fire Chief went pov, other members were enroute to the station and were to respond the tanker. When the tones dropped we did call for mutual aid from the paid dept. down the road. Chief get's on scene and does his 360 and notifies income units that there is heavy smoke and flames showing from the gable above the garage. The engine check's on scene and one member pulls the 1 3/4 inch attack line with the other pumps the engine and the third grabs tools and heads to the front door when the member that was laying out hose gets to the door they do an interior primary search while the Fire Chief does an exterior attack on the attic fire. Mutual aid engine arrives and they are also running a 3 man crew at the same time our tanker arrives with 2 more members. So just to make sure we are all on the same page we now have 9 people on scene only 8 are certified firefighters, so lets take the chief out of this and we are now down to 7 certified people on scene as manpower became available we did do an interior attack and saved over 95% of the house. So lesson on this call if you do something with little it just might save something big in the end. We also know that a transitional attack were you go from exterior to interior saves property. So to sum it all up 7 FireFighter's saved a house by using Training and Motivation. Oh and by the way just as a side note no one got even the smallest boo-boo doing any of this.
    Sabine Chief ...

    My VFD implemented transitional attack about a year ago, led by myself and the Training Captain after I attended FDIC and took a class on the topic.

    We have a 100 2.5" line with a smooth-bore tip on every engine dedicated to this purpose.

    It was becoming apparent that our manpower levels were dropping and that an exterior attack while waiting for either more manpower from our own department or the closest mutual aid engine was the way to knock down the fire without having to make entry short staffed, while waiting for more resources.

    Since then, our responding manpower has dropped even further and we have implemented formal automatic mutual aid with the neighboring department on every structural call.

    In fact we transitional attack with an 1 3/4" line at our last structure fire, and it knocked own the majority of the fire while we waited for the AMA engine from the neighboring small city as we did not have enough interior personnel, without committing the only officer, who was in command, interior on the line.

    The fact is that in most cases we no longer have the manpower to make entry initially without committing the incident commander on the handline.

    I have no expectations that our manpower situation is going to change in the short-term, and quite frankly have no expectations for any significant long term manpower changes either, so this is the way that we will likely have to operate for the foreseeable future.

    The fact is that I will not risk any injury to my men for property. The priority for me at least is that they all are fully able to report to their full-time jobs the next morning, and the sad reality is that in our area, given the travel times, it is highly unlikely that any trapped occupants would be viable by the time we arrived, and simply again, not worth the risk to my personnel given the likely volume of fire on arrival.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that I will not risk any injury to my men for property. The priority for me at least is that they all are fully able to report to their full-time jobs the next morning, and the sad reality is that in our area, given the travel times, it is highly unlikely that any trapped occupants would be viable by the time we arrived, and simply again, not worth the risk to my personnel given the likely volume of fire on arrival.
    A simple:

    "My VFD and I are pathetic and we really don't like doing the job, so we just pretend."

    Would have been adequate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, it comes down to how you define "the job". And we'll never agree on that.
    You and your department can decide what tasks and services it will provide under the guise of being a "fire department" and at what level of competence they will be provided, but this doesn't change what "the job" is. It's not about what others, you and I think "the job" is or should be. What "the job" is was defined long before any of us went to our first call. We don't get to individually re-define what "the job" is.

    Think of it this way, you were born as a male I presume. Science specifically and society to a large extent have defined what constitutes a human male and human female. You could start wearing dresses and make up, acting like and calling yourself a female (assuming you don't already do any of these things ), but the hard reality is that until your outie becomes an innie, you ARE a male.
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