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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    No, but we do find his message and delivery refreshing in a world obsessed with political correctness and finding excuses to not do their job.

    That's fine, but you should really have something of substance to counter with. In most cases, you don't and it's very clear that you missed his point.

    Bobby couldn't catch Lt. McCormacks's point even if it were written on the broad side of a barn, texted to him, sent as a memo or tattoed inside of his eyelids.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    You know what would be great?

    Next year, at the FDIC, a point/counterpoint debate between Lt. Ray McCormack and the Pub Ed darling of Bossier Parish, the one and only Bobby Callahan, aka LA Fire Educator.

    Bobby Halton could moderate, and the panel asking questions could be Dave Statter of Statter 911, Bill Schumm of Firegeezer, Chief Billy Goldfeder of The Secret List and either Captain Willie Wines of Iron Fireman, Dave LeBlanc of Backstep Firefighter or Rhett Fleitz of the Fire Critic!

    All in favor say AYE!
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-16-2013 at 04:45 PM.
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Aye!

    .................
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Aye.......
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    AYE! And I wish to reserve my front-row seat NOW!

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    1st round knockouts tend to be boring!

    Make sure you have plans to fill out the rest of your night.
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    Aye!




    This 10 character minimum is really annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    You know what would be great?

    Next year, at the FDIC, a point/counterpoint debate between Lt. Ray McCormack and the Pub Ed darling of Bossier Parish, the one and only Bobby Callahan, aka LA Fire Educator.

    Bobby Halton could moderate, and the panel asking questions could be Dave Statter of Statter 911, Bill Schumm of Firegeezer, Chief Billy Goldfeder of The Secret List and either Captain Willie Wines of Iron Fireman, Dave LeBlanc of Backstep Firefighter or Rhett Fleitz of the Fire Critic!

    All in favor say AYE!
    Funny thing is that I am submitting a class for the 2014 FDIC.

    We'll work on the debate though.

    So what exactly will be the topic of the debate?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I am submitting a class for the 2014 FDIC.

    We'll work on the debate though.
    "How to avoid actual firefighting but still get a cool T-shirt that says Fire Department on it."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    No, but we do find his message and delivery refreshing in a world obsessed with political correctness and finding excuses to not do their job.

    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.

    If I was to hear him, or see in any of his writings him acknowledging the fact that there are many, many small departments that simply can never do "the job" as he sees it, maybe my opinion of him would be different. But he seems to come at the expectation of the fire service from one perspective - FDNY or Long Island volunteer manpower levels - and that is simply not, nor ever will be the case in a pretty hefty chuck of the country's fire departments.

    Saying that there are many, many, many departments that will never be able to perform "the job" as he views it has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with acknowledging reality.


    That's fine, but you should really have something of substance to counter with. In most cases, you don't and it's very clear that you missed his point.
    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    "How to avoid actual firefighting but still get a cool T-shirt that says Fire Department on it."
    Not a very exciting debate topic.

    It sounds more like the topic for a presentation.

    Why don't you try again and see if you can do better this time.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.
    http://statter911.com/2013/06/15/hel...tte-county-ms/
    looked to be fairly rural -and gasp - a trailer (modular home)
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    http://statter911.com/2013/06/15/hel...tte-county-ms/
    looked to be fairly rural -and gasp - a trailer (modular home)
    No idea regarding the pay status of the members. No idea regarding the response time of the apparatus. No idea regarding tier funding. No idea regarding their access to burn facilitates or state training programs.

    Yes, they made a nice stop, but they very well could have been a paid crew of 3, or the to9nes hit at just the right time when there were several volunteers at the station, and the fire could have been 2 miles from the station.

    The simple fact is many, many, many rural VFDs have things working against them long before the tones drop.

    To make the assumption that every department should be able to do the job, and have that as your expectation is nothing short of asinine.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-16-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I am submitting a class for the 2014 FDIC.
    That has to be the funniest thing I read today...
    Chenzo and rm1524 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    That has to be the funniest thing I read today...
    What would be funnier is if it was accepted.

    Class has been taught at several volunteer and combo department in three parishes and has been very well accepted.

    We'll see what happens.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What would be funnier is if it was accepted.

    Class has been taught at several volunteer and combo department in three parishes and has been very well accepted.

    We'll see what happens.
    Don't get your hopes up...
    Chenzo and rm1524 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    ..... And here is a video of that same department losing a mobile home.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxTzz34I8w

    So we really don't know which one is the typical outcome, do we?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Don't get your hopes up...
    As I said, we'll see what happens.

    Given the number of class submissions each year, and the fact that there may be folks on the review board who may be here or may have been here, and disagree with my opinions, there is a likelihood that the class will not be accepted, which is cool.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-16-2013 at 09:30 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... And here is a video of that same department losing a mobile home.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxTzz34I8w

    So we really don't know which one is the typical outcome, do we?
    You know , I have tried to refrain from name calling, but are you really that dense, and that far removed from having ever been a REAL fireman, that you haven't figured out that there are some calls when you do everything right, and you still lose. What point are you trying to make ??????????????? -It was hard to tell as much about the 2nd video, but one thing for sure, I didn't see a bunch of p-ssies standing out in the yard whining about what they CANT do. take my word for it, I started out as a volunteer fireman in rural Arkansas in the late 70s. We didn't make excuses , we worked our butts off, sucked it up and did our best with NO excuses. So again my point was not about the" typical outcome" - it was about doing your best , yeah, maybe the trailer was totaled in the 2nd video, but if they did their best, there is nothing to be ashamed off. But to spend more time and energy making excuses and trying to pass it off as some new wave holier than thou firefighting revolution, is just effing disgraceful and I really don't see how you sleep at night.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Lt. Ray McCormack is a well known fire service leader and author.

    You on the other hand....
    Hey Pubed......I would pull a deuce and a half line through the gates of hell with the Loot any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    I wouldn't pull a garden hose on a small campfire with you at anytime or anywhere.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not a very exciting debate topic.

    It sounds more like the topic for a presentation.

    Why don't you try again and see if you can do better this time.
    Why should I try again? Did I hit too close to home on the topic you are sending to FDIC?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator:

    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.

    They should DO THE JOB, but if they can't for whatever reasoon they owe it to their citizens to make a public announcement of what they can't and won't do. Do that and I will respect that FD for being openly honest instead of covertly pretending they are a full service fire department.

    If I was to hear him, or see in any of his writings him acknowledging the fact that there are many, many small departments that simply can never do "the job" as he sees it, maybe my opinion of him would be different. But he seems to come at the expectation of the fire service from one perspective - FDNY or Long Island volunteer manpower levels - and that is simply not, nor ever will be the case in a pretty hefty chuck of the country's fire departments.

    And if I would see you one time admit you have NOT told your citizens, in a public forum, that they can expect NOTHING in regards to interior search and rescue, or interior firefighting, because you can't guarantee any sort of response at all, let alone enough TRAINED interior firefighters, to make a difference. If you haven't, and I know you haven't, you are deceiving the public and it will bite your butt one of these days.

    Saying that there are many, many, many departments that will never be able to perform "the job" as he views it has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with acknowledging reality.

    And part of that ackowledgment is telling your citizens what you will and won't do. That has nothing to do with political correctness either, it has to do with integrity and honesty.


    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.

    THEN TELL YOUR CITIZENS ALL OF THAT INSTEAD OF PRETENDING TO BE WHAT YOU AREN'T.
    If you are so proud of your VFD why can't you be honest with the citizens that fund you with their capabilities?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    No, but we do find his message and delivery refreshing in a world obsessed with political correctness and finding excuses to not do their job.

    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.

    If I was to hear him, or see in any of his writings him acknowledging the fact that there are many, many small departments that simply can never do "the job" as he sees it, maybe my opinion of him would be different. But he seems to come at the expectation of the fire service from one perspective - FDNY or Long Island volunteer manpower levels - and that is simply not, nor ever will be the case in a pretty hefty chuck of the country's fire departments.

    Saying that there are many, many, many departments that will never be able to perform "the job" as he views it has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with acknowledging reality.


    That's fine, but you should really have something of substance to counter with. In most cases, you don't and it's very clear that you missed his point.

    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.
    I think I see the problem, it's a fundamental difference in definitions.

    "The job" is about being prepared (trained and equipped) to handle (at the very least) the incidents you will likely encounter as a department, responding in a timely manor and actually performing the tasks expected of a Fire Department in a competent fashion. This would include things like victim search supported by interior fire attack.

    You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.

    While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".

    The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property. The fact that there are departments that lack the ability to do these things doesn't mean that the definition of what doing "the job" needs to be or should be changed to reflect that reality. That's basically like changing an A grade from 90% to 70% because most of the class did poorly on a test. Sure, it looks good on the report card, but those students won't know the material any better when they need it in the future.

    It may not sit well with your "everybody gets a trophy" view of things, but as I and others have stated, maybe these departments you like to talk about just aren't really "Fire Departments". So maybe that acknowledgement you are looking for isn't there because he simply isn't talking about organizations like your small VFD when discussing doing "the job".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Why should I try again? Did I hit too close to home on the topic you are sending to FDIC?
    Actually, no.

    The topic is The Changing Nature of Large Vehicle Fire Operations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    You know , I have tried to refrain from name calling, but are you really that dense, and that far removed from having ever been a REAL fireman, that you haven't figured out that there are some calls when you do everything right, and you still lose. What point are you trying to make ??????????????? -It was hard to tell as much about the 2nd video, but one thing for sure, I didn't see a bunch of p-ssies standing out in the yard whining about what they CANT do. take my word for it, I started out as a volunteer fireman in rural Arkansas in the late 70s. We didn't make excuses , we worked our butts off, sucked it up and did our best with NO excuses. So again my point was not about the" typical outcome" - it was about doing your best , yeah, maybe the trailer was totaled in the 2nd video, but if they did their best, there is nothing to be ashamed off. But to spend more time and energy making excuses and trying to pass it off as some new wave holier than thou firefighting revolution, is just effing disgraceful and I really don't see how you sleep at night.
    My point was simple.

    You used an example of this department making a very effective fire attack without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    I also posted a video of the same department apparently losing a structure, again without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    We don't know which one is more typical.

    Some rural VFDs makes a save now and then. Some make them all the time. And all of that depends on a number of factors.

    What you seem to want to call excuses I call decisions based on risk vs. benefit that does not put members in harm's way if they lack the training or the manpower resources to do the job safely and bring every single member home, uninjured, after the incident. in the end, that is truly the only thing that matters.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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