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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And nowhere did I say that I would let them die. I did say that performing the rescue would be MY responsibility before the fire department arrived.

    But I clearly would try to disawaid the incident commander from making entry and risking members lives if clearly there was little chance of survival. Yes, my wife is the most important person in my life, but those members are also the most important person in their wives and children's lives, and placing them in danger if there is significant risk is not the right thing to do.

    If the chances are minimal and there is a significant risk of injury, I am not selfish enough to put my needs ahead of what is right for them, and more importantly, for their families.


    This isn't about me, or what I would do, but it is about what is right for the members, and more importantly, the families of the members of my combo department
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, actually I wouldn't.
    And that's why even your family would be better off being served by a six year old or an Australian dog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And that's why even your family would be better off being served by a six year old or an Australian dog.
    What if.. The 6 Year old HAD an Australian dog?

    Mind.. Blown
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    What if.. The 6 Year old HAD an Australian dog?

    Mind.. Blown
    Would it make any difference if it was a 6 year old Australian boy and a non-Australian dog?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Would it make any difference if it was a 6 year old Australian boy and a non-Australian dog?
    Either way anyone would stand a better chance with them...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Would it make any difference if it was a 6 year old Australian boy and a non-Australian dog?
    It makes a HUGE difference if it is one of them instead of you and your VFD idiots.
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    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I get it. And when I was younger, I used to believe it.

    But I guess as I have grown older, my perspectives and my beliefs have changed.
    Then get the **** out because your pussy beliefs have no place in the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Then get the **** out because your pussy beliefs have no place in the fire service.
    Hey don't hold back -let him know how you really feel.
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    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Then get the **** out because your pussy beliefs have no place in the fire service.
    99.99% of the fire service approves of this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Then get the **** out because your pussy beliefs have no place in the fire service.
    I wish I wasn't too shy to post something like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I wish I wasn't too shy to post something like this.
    In your own words,

    "BWHHAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAH AAAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    99.99% of the fire service approves of this post.
    The .01% will take this and twist, turn, divert, discombobulate, skew, alter and flat out lie about what the 99.99% thinks in an effort to legitimize the .01%'s beliefs.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I just finished reading Col. B. P. McCoy's book, Passion of Command. In the conclusion he writes the following:

    " . . . the leader must look squarely in the mirror and gather the moral strength necessary to order his men into harm's way, to see them killed and maimed, to look into the eyes of the wounded and upon the faces of the dead, yet not lose his fighting spirit. Moreover, the true test is to look oneself in the mirror after young men who trusted their commander are killed and maimed, and do it all over again without losing the will to violently close with the enemy."

    There will be moments, hopefully very few, where Fire Service Leaders will need to live by these words. And to discount the possibility is to abdicate your responsibility and moral authority as a leader. No one, soldier or firefighter, wants to see their people injured or killed. But it will happen. And if we don't fulfill our duty, innocents suffer and die instead.

    That's the difference.
    Last edited by MBarnes; 07-13-2013 at 04:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBarnes View Post
    I just finished reading Col. B. P. McCoy's book, Passion of Command. In the conclusion he writes the following:

    " . . . the leader must look squarely in the mirror and gather the moral strength necessary to order his men into harm's way, to see them killed and maimed, to look into the eyes of the wounded and upon the faces of the dead, yet not lose his fighting spirit. Moreover, the true test is to look oneself in the mirror after young men who trusted their commander are killed and maimed, and do it all over again without losing the will to violently close with the enemy."

    There will be moments, hopefully very few, where Fire Service Leaders will need to live by these words. And to discount the possibility is to abdicate your responsibility and moral authority as a leader. No one, solder or firefighter, wants to see their people injured or killed. But it will happen. And if we don't fulfill our duty, innocents suffer and die in our place.

    That's the difference.
    Bing-freaking-o!
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Hey don't hold back -let him know how you really feel.
    I can't.....it would be to many of these ****** to make any sense.
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    Like this? ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ******?
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    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBarnes View Post
    I just finished reading Col. B. P. McCoy's book, Passion of Command. In the conclusion he writes the following:

    " . . . the leader must look squarely in the mirror and gather the moral strength necessary to order his men into harm's way, to see them killed and maimed, to look into the eyes of the wounded and upon the faces of the dead, yet not lose his fighting spirit. Moreover, the true test is to look oneself in the mirror after young men who trusted their commander are killed and maimed, and do it all over again without losing the will to violently close with the enemy."

    There will be moments, hopefully very few, where Fire Service Leaders will need to live by these words. And to discount the possibility is to abdicate your responsibility and moral authority as a leader. No one, soldier or firefighter, wants to see their people injured or killed. But it will happen. And if we don't fulfill our duty, innocents suffer and die instead.

    That's the difference.
    I've got to say I don't much like the analogy between combat and firefighting. I believe it is an apples and oranges situation. Yes, fire ground commanders know there is a possibility of firefighters dying but it is really an abstract piece of knowledge. They don't really EXPECT firefighters to die. Military commanders not only expect it but pretty much KNOW it's going to happen. There is a world of difference. Firefighters die at the rate of about three deaths per 100,000 fires, with almost 3/4 of them being cardiac or MVA while responding. I'm not dismissing those deaths as less worthy or important, but these are not part of the hazard an IC expects when he orders firefighters into a burning structure. I don't know the rate at which veterans are killed in combat, but I suspect it is significantly more common than our firefighting deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I've got to say I don't much like the analogy between combat and firefighting. I believe it is an apples and oranges situation. Yes, fire ground commanders know there is a possibility of firefighters dying but it is really an abstract piece of knowledge. They don't really EXPECT firefighters to die. Military commanders not only expect it but pretty much KNOW it's going to happen. There is a world of difference. Firefighters die at the rate of about three deaths per 100,000 fires, with almost 3/4 of them being cardiac or MVA while responding. I'm not dismissing those deaths as less worthy or important, but these are not part of the hazard an IC expects when he orders firefighters into a burning structure. I don't know the rate at which veterans are killed in combat, but I suspect it is significantly more common than our firefighting deaths.
    I don't think we are supposed to take the analogy directly as meaning to send men to their death as firefighters. I think the point is simply this, if you are not willing as a fireground officer to send firefighters into harms way to attempt to rescue trapped civilians, or in an attempt to extinguish the fire, you probably don't belong in a leadership role. I am not saying we order people to make suicidal charges into building fully involved or on the verge of collapse. I am saying if an officer is unwilling to send firefighters into life viable rescue situations, or into fire conditions where we can make a difference and save a structure, they have no business at all being in that position.
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    I agree that it absolutely is a part of the leadership role, just at a different level than military. Very necessary for IC to be able to do it, and if he can't he should not be in that position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I agree that it absolutely is a part of the leadership role, just at a different level than military. Very necessary for IC to be able to do it, and if he can't he should not be in that position.
    Dude, do we actually agree on something?
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    Originally Posted by captnjak

    I agree that it absolutely is a part of the leadership role, just at a different level than military. Very necessary for IC to be able to do it, and if he can't he should not be in that position.
    Posted by FyredUp
    Dude, do we actually agree on something?
    It appears you have...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I've got to say I don't much like the analogy between combat and firefighting. I believe it is an apples and oranges situation. Yes, fire ground commanders know there is a possibility of firefighters dying but it is really an abstract piece of knowledge. They don't really EXPECT firefighters to die. Military commanders not only expect it but pretty much KNOW it's going to happen. There is a world of difference. Firefighters die at the rate of about three deaths per 100,000 fires, with almost 3/4 of them being cardiac or MVA while responding. I'm not dismissing those deaths as less worthy or important, but these are not part of the hazard an IC expects when he orders firefighters into a burning structure. I don't know the rate at which veterans are killed in combat, but I suspect it is significantly more common than our firefighting deaths.
    I certainly didn't mean to imply that the the fire service is expecting our folks to die. We are not in the killing or dying business for sure.

    I will say that I believe there are more similarities between the fireground and the battlefield than differences. If you've ever heard Jason Brezler speak, you may agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't think we are supposed to take the analogy directly as meaning to send men to their death as firefighters. I think the point is simply this, if you are not willing as a fireground officer to send firefighters into harms way to attempt to rescue trapped civilians, or in an attempt to extinguish the fire, you probably don't belong in a leadership role. I am not saying we order people to make suicidal charges into building fully involved or on the verge of collapse. I am saying if an officer is unwilling to send firefighters into life viable rescue situations, or into fire conditions where we can make a difference and save a structure, they have no business at all being in that position.
    This is inline with my thought process.

    There clearly is a mindset out there that is paralyzed by the thought of our people being injured or killed on an incident. This paralysis prevents a manager from making educated decisions to fulfill our mission. These folks are not leaders because they are not prepared to live with risk and consequences.

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    It appears that we agree more than we disagree. I posted mostly in response to the paragraph you quoted from the book. It was, in my opinion, not truly representative of the mindset of a fire ground IC. There is a world of difference between Knowing that a fatality COULD happen and knowing that a fatality WILL happen. Aside from that I would agree there are many similarities between the military and the fire service.

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