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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #41
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What would be funnier is if it was accepted.

    Class has been taught at several volunteer and combo department in three parishes and has been very well accepted.

    We'll see what happens.
    Don't get your hopes up...
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    ..... And here is a video of that same department losing a mobile home.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxTzz34I8w

    So we really don't know which one is the typical outcome, do we?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Don't get your hopes up...
    As I said, we'll see what happens.

    Given the number of class submissions each year, and the fact that there may be folks on the review board who may be here or may have been here, and disagree with my opinions, there is a likelihood that the class will not be accepted, which is cool.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-16-2013 at 09:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... And here is a video of that same department losing a mobile home.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkxTzz34I8w

    So we really don't know which one is the typical outcome, do we?
    You know , I have tried to refrain from name calling, but are you really that dense, and that far removed from having ever been a REAL fireman, that you haven't figured out that there are some calls when you do everything right, and you still lose. What point are you trying to make ??????????????? -It was hard to tell as much about the 2nd video, but one thing for sure, I didn't see a bunch of p-ssies standing out in the yard whining about what they CANT do. take my word for it, I started out as a volunteer fireman in rural Arkansas in the late 70s. We didn't make excuses , we worked our butts off, sucked it up and did our best with NO excuses. So again my point was not about the" typical outcome" - it was about doing your best , yeah, maybe the trailer was totaled in the 2nd video, but if they did their best, there is nothing to be ashamed off. But to spend more time and energy making excuses and trying to pass it off as some new wave holier than thou firefighting revolution, is just effing disgraceful and I really don't see how you sleep at night.
    ?

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    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Lt. Ray McCormack is a well known fire service leader and author.

    You on the other hand....
    Hey Pubed......I would pull a deuce and a half line through the gates of hell with the Loot any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    I wouldn't pull a garden hose on a small campfire with you at anytime or anywhere.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not a very exciting debate topic.

    It sounds more like the topic for a presentation.

    Why don't you try again and see if you can do better this time.
    Why should I try again? Did I hit too close to home on the topic you are sending to FDIC?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  7. #47
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator:

    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.

    They should DO THE JOB, but if they can't for whatever reasoon they owe it to their citizens to make a public announcement of what they can't and won't do. Do that and I will respect that FD for being openly honest instead of covertly pretending they are a full service fire department.

    If I was to hear him, or see in any of his writings him acknowledging the fact that there are many, many small departments that simply can never do "the job" as he sees it, maybe my opinion of him would be different. But he seems to come at the expectation of the fire service from one perspective - FDNY or Long Island volunteer manpower levels - and that is simply not, nor ever will be the case in a pretty hefty chuck of the country's fire departments.

    And if I would see you one time admit you have NOT told your citizens, in a public forum, that they can expect NOTHING in regards to interior search and rescue, or interior firefighting, because you can't guarantee any sort of response at all, let alone enough TRAINED interior firefighters, to make a difference. If you haven't, and I know you haven't, you are deceiving the public and it will bite your butt one of these days.

    Saying that there are many, many, many departments that will never be able to perform "the job" as he views it has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with acknowledging reality.

    And part of that ackowledgment is telling your citizens what you will and won't do. That has nothing to do with political correctness either, it has to do with integrity and honesty.


    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.

    THEN TELL YOUR CITIZENS ALL OF THAT INSTEAD OF PRETENDING TO BE WHAT YOU AREN'T.
    If you are so proud of your VFD why can't you be honest with the citizens that fund you with their capabilities?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    No, but we do find his message and delivery refreshing in a world obsessed with political correctness and finding excuses to not do their job.

    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.

    If I was to hear him, or see in any of his writings him acknowledging the fact that there are many, many small departments that simply can never do "the job" as he sees it, maybe my opinion of him would be different. But he seems to come at the expectation of the fire service from one perspective - FDNY or Long Island volunteer manpower levels - and that is simply not, nor ever will be the case in a pretty hefty chuck of the country's fire departments.

    Saying that there are many, many, many departments that will never be able to perform "the job" as he views it has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with acknowledging reality.


    That's fine, but you should really have something of substance to counter with. In most cases, you don't and it's very clear that you missed his point.

    And the counter is the reality of manpower, funding, training and access to training, experience and simply distance that prevents hundreds or thousands of rural and small community departments from being able to do "the job" without extreme risk to the members.
    I think I see the problem, it's a fundamental difference in definitions.

    "The job" is about being prepared (trained and equipped) to handle (at the very least) the incidents you will likely encounter as a department, responding in a timely manor and actually performing the tasks expected of a Fire Department in a competent fashion. This would include things like victim search supported by interior fire attack.

    You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.

    While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".

    The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property. The fact that there are departments that lack the ability to do these things doesn't mean that the definition of what doing "the job" needs to be or should be changed to reflect that reality. That's basically like changing an A grade from 90% to 70% because most of the class did poorly on a test. Sure, it looks good on the report card, but those students won't know the material any better when they need it in the future.

    It may not sit well with your "everybody gets a trophy" view of things, but as I and others have stated, maybe these departments you like to talk about just aren't really "Fire Departments". So maybe that acknowledgement you are looking for isn't there because he simply isn't talking about organizations like your small VFD when discussing doing "the job".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Why should I try again? Did I hit too close to home on the topic you are sending to FDIC?
    Actually, no.

    The topic is The Changing Nature of Large Vehicle Fire Operations.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    You know , I have tried to refrain from name calling, but are you really that dense, and that far removed from having ever been a REAL fireman, that you haven't figured out that there are some calls when you do everything right, and you still lose. What point are you trying to make ??????????????? -It was hard to tell as much about the 2nd video, but one thing for sure, I didn't see a bunch of p-ssies standing out in the yard whining about what they CANT do. take my word for it, I started out as a volunteer fireman in rural Arkansas in the late 70s. We didn't make excuses , we worked our butts off, sucked it up and did our best with NO excuses. So again my point was not about the" typical outcome" - it was about doing your best , yeah, maybe the trailer was totaled in the 2nd video, but if they did their best, there is nothing to be ashamed off. But to spend more time and energy making excuses and trying to pass it off as some new wave holier than thou firefighting revolution, is just effing disgraceful and I really don't see how you sleep at night.
    My point was simple.

    You used an example of this department making a very effective fire attack without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    I also posted a video of the same department apparently losing a structure, again without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    We don't know which one is more typical.

    Some rural VFDs makes a save now and then. Some make them all the time. And all of that depends on a number of factors.

    What you seem to want to call excuses I call decisions based on risk vs. benefit that does not put members in harm's way if they lack the training or the manpower resources to do the job safely and bring every single member home, uninjured, after the incident. in the end, that is truly the only thing that matters.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I think I see the problem, it's a fundamental difference in definitions.

    "The job" is about being prepared (trained and equipped) to handle (at the very least) the incidents you will likely encounter as a department, responding in a timely manor and actually performing the tasks expected of a Fire Department in a competent fashion. This would include things like victim search supported by interior fire attack.


    If you want to include victim search and rescue and interior fire attack as a mandatory part of the job, have at it. I don't, especially in rural areas with very limited manpower, and in some cases, questionable or unreliable equipment resources.

    There are communities that will never have the resources - financial, manpower or mutual aid - to be an interior fire department. Like it or not that is the reality, and for them, they will not, in most cases, have the ability to operate interior or perform victim search operations


    You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.

    No, that's not my view, but I am realistic enough to know that as I stated above, there will always be departments that will not be able to operate interior the majority of the time. It may be financial resources that preclude them buying up to date turnout gear or SCBA. It may the need to operate older, unreliable apparatus. It may be large districts and extended response times with significant fire on arrival. It may be a small community with a very limited manpower pool and a lack of interior members because of that. It could be any number of very valid REASONS.

    Is that the way that I like it? No. But I understand that in many places that is the way that it IS.


    While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".

    Most communities that have such departments would disagree. They understand that they are doing "the job" as defined by their limitations.

    The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property.

    That's your portion of the fire service using that definition. There are large segments in the rural community that may not agree.

    The fact that there are departments that lack the ability to do these things doesn't mean that the definition of what doing "the job" needs to be or should be changed to reflect that reality. That's basically like changing an A grade from 90% to 70% because most of the class did poorly on a test. Sure, it looks good on the report card, but those students won't know the material any better when they need it in the future.

    It may not sit well with your "everybody gets a trophy" view of things, but as I and others have stated, maybe these departments you like to talk about just aren't really "Fire Departments". So maybe that acknowledgement you are looking for isn't there because he simply isn't talking about organizations like your small VFD when discussing doing "the job".
    He may not be, and frankly, it's likely that nobody in small rural VFDs care about what an FDNY LT has to say about our operations.
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    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
    Maybe one more firefighter on the line... other than that, nothing else!
    Chenzo likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually, no.

    The topic is The Changing Nature of Large Vehicle Fire Operations.
    Does your presentation include not making an attempt to rescue trapped occupants in the vehicle and allow them to die because, as you have stated many time in the past, "it happens"?
    Chenzo likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And there are others that don't display their satisfaction with everything that they read if they disagree with it?

    It seems like most of the posters here think that the LT is the best thing to happen to the world since sliced bread. I don't feel that way and feel that i have the responsibility to oppose him at most turns.
    The difference is that the LT has the credibility of doing the job in a real FD with real firefighters. You don't. You've made it pretty clear that you're pretty pitiful as a firefighter and your FD is populated by pathetic souls claiming to be firefighters.

    Your contrarian stances have become so gratuitous and outrageous that it has caused your arguments to be lost even if you were able to make a valid point.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I am submitting a class for the 2014 FDIC.

    We'll work on the debate though.

    So what exactly will be the topic of the debate?
    On what? It only reinforces the adage of those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. And to use Woody Allen's line, "those that can't teach, teach P.E."

    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point was simple.

    You used an example of this department making a very effective fire attack without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    I also posted a video of the same department apparently losing a structure, again without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    We don't know which one is more typical.

    Some rural VFDs makes a save now and then. Some make them all the time. And all of that depends on a number of factors.

    What you seem to want to call excuses I call decisions based on risk vs. benefit that does not put members in harm's way if they lack the training or the manpower resources to do the job safely and bring every single member home, uninjured, after the incident. in the end, that is truly the only thing that matters.
    reading the background the video poster wrote, it was a fairly new crew. But apparently they had some "want to" and a training officer that set the bar fairly high. They didn't stand out in the yard and whine " you knew what you were getting when you called us" -they put out a solid effort and pretty much stopped the fire in its tracks. Do you really mean the only thing that really matters is every one going home uninjured? -Again , no one to my knowledge is advocating a suicide mission but to say -yeah buddy you lost everything -your kids are crying their eyes out over their dead dog , but hey , me and my overweight buddies are going home to our intact homes and eating some fried catfish, without a scratch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
    Unless, the same grammar and punctuation are used in the submitted curriculum as used in the majority of his postings, here. If that's the case, it's probably already been rejected.

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    Posted by SC
    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
    Consequently, it is akin to the Doctor who is morbidly obese, smokes like a chimney and drinks like a fish telling patients they have to lose weight, quit smoking and quit drinking...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
    More obfuscation from you, Bobby. Conrad asked what is the difference between his FD and an engine company from "NY" (no specific community specified) pulling a line.

    Keep making excuses.. it is what you do best.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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