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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I think I see the problem, it's a fundamental difference in definitions.

    "The job" is about being prepared (trained and equipped) to handle (at the very least) the incidents you will likely encounter as a department, responding in a timely manor and actually performing the tasks expected of a Fire Department in a competent fashion. This would include things like victim search supported by interior fire attack.


    If you want to include victim search and rescue and interior fire attack as a mandatory part of the job, have at it. I don't, especially in rural areas with very limited manpower, and in some cases, questionable or unreliable equipment resources.

    There are communities that will never have the resources - financial, manpower or mutual aid - to be an interior fire department. Like it or not that is the reality, and for them, they will not, in most cases, have the ability to operate interior or perform victim search operations


    You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.

    No, that's not my view, but I am realistic enough to know that as I stated above, there will always be departments that will not be able to operate interior the majority of the time. It may be financial resources that preclude them buying up to date turnout gear or SCBA. It may the need to operate older, unreliable apparatus. It may be large districts and extended response times with significant fire on arrival. It may be a small community with a very limited manpower pool and a lack of interior members because of that. It could be any number of very valid REASONS.

    Is that the way that I like it? No. But I understand that in many places that is the way that it IS.


    While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".

    Most communities that have such departments would disagree. They understand that they are doing "the job" as defined by their limitations.

    The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property.

    That's your portion of the fire service using that definition. There are large segments in the rural community that may not agree.

    The fact that there are departments that lack the ability to do these things doesn't mean that the definition of what doing "the job" needs to be or should be changed to reflect that reality. That's basically like changing an A grade from 90% to 70% because most of the class did poorly on a test. Sure, it looks good on the report card, but those students won't know the material any better when they need it in the future.

    It may not sit well with your "everybody gets a trophy" view of things, but as I and others have stated, maybe these departments you like to talk about just aren't really "Fire Departments". So maybe that acknowledgement you are looking for isn't there because he simply isn't talking about organizations like your small VFD when discussing doing "the job".
    He may not be, and frankly, it's likely that nobody in small rural VFDs care about what an FDNY LT has to say about our operations.
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    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
    Maybe one more firefighter on the line... other than that, nothing else!
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually, no.

    The topic is The Changing Nature of Large Vehicle Fire Operations.
    Does your presentation include not making an attempt to rescue trapped occupants in the vehicle and allow them to die because, as you have stated many time in the past, "it happens"?
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And there are others that don't display their satisfaction with everything that they read if they disagree with it?

    It seems like most of the posters here think that the LT is the best thing to happen to the world since sliced bread. I don't feel that way and feel that i have the responsibility to oppose him at most turns.
    The difference is that the LT has the credibility of doing the job in a real FD with real firefighters. You don't. You've made it pretty clear that you're pretty pitiful as a firefighter and your FD is populated by pathetic souls claiming to be firefighters.

    Your contrarian stances have become so gratuitous and outrageous that it has caused your arguments to be lost even if you were able to make a valid point.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I am submitting a class for the 2014 FDIC.

    We'll work on the debate though.

    So what exactly will be the topic of the debate?
    On what? It only reinforces the adage of those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. And to use Woody Allen's line, "those that can't teach, teach P.E."

    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My point was simple.

    You used an example of this department making a very effective fire attack without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    I also posted a video of the same department apparently losing a structure, again without any reference to the circumstances of the response.

    We don't know which one is more typical.

    Some rural VFDs makes a save now and then. Some make them all the time. And all of that depends on a number of factors.

    What you seem to want to call excuses I call decisions based on risk vs. benefit that does not put members in harm's way if they lack the training or the manpower resources to do the job safely and bring every single member home, uninjured, after the incident. in the end, that is truly the only thing that matters.
    reading the background the video poster wrote, it was a fairly new crew. But apparently they had some "want to" and a training officer that set the bar fairly high. They didn't stand out in the yard and whine " you knew what you were getting when you called us" -they put out a solid effort and pretty much stopped the fire in its tracks. Do you really mean the only thing that really matters is every one going home uninjured? -Again , no one to my knowledge is advocating a suicide mission but to say -yeah buddy you lost everything -your kids are crying their eyes out over their dead dog , but hey , me and my overweight buddies are going home to our intact homes and eating some fried catfish, without a scratch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
    Unless, the same grammar and punctuation are used in the submitted curriculum as used in the majority of his postings, here. If that's the case, it's probably already been rejected.

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    Posted by SC
    While I'm sure your paper is well written and will be properly sourced, it is akin to the college finance teacher who doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
    Consequently, it is akin to the Doctor who is morbidly obese, smokes like a chimney and drinks like a fish telling patients they have to lose weight, quit smoking and quit drinking...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Dude, when I pull a line off of an engine while wearing PPE and SCBA with one or two guys while carrying tools and communicating with an IC, exactly what is the difference between me and a hose team from NY?
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
    More obfuscation from you, Bobby. Conrad asked what is the difference between his FD and an engine company from "NY" (no specific community specified) pulling a line.

    Keep making excuses.. it is what you do best.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    reading the background the video poster wrote, it was a fairly new crew. But apparently they had some "want to" and a training officer that set the bar fairly high. They didn't stand out in the yard and whine " you knew what you were getting when you called us" -they put out a solid effort and pretty much stopped the fire in its tracks. Do you really mean the only thing that really matters is every one going home uninjured? -Again , no one to my knowledge is advocating a suicide mission but to say -yeah buddy you lost everything -your kids are crying their eyes out over their dead dog , but hey , me and my overweight buddies are going home to our intact homes and eating some fried catfish, without a scratch.
    Yes, everyone of my personnel, and mutual aid personnel, going home uninjured is, as either an IC or a crew leader, my priority at every incident.

    Most of my volunteer members have families, and in some of the cases, they are the sole providers. There is no wage protection for volunteer members under workman's comp in this state, so yes, it is my priority that every member will be able to go to work their next scheduled shift. That is my primary responsibility as an officer - the welfare of my personnel and the ability for them to continue to provide for their families.

    If I can do that and still be effective in knocking down the fire, saving property and saving lives, that's great. But I will not put that in front of the physical health of my members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    More obfuscation from you, Bobby. Conrad asked what is the difference between his FD and an engine company from "NY" (no specific community specified) pulling a line.

    Keep making excuses.. it is what you do best.
    There's no doubt that by NY he was referring to FDNY.

    But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.

    The members have likely also been to far more fires that Conrad and his partner, giving them far greater experience. They also have been to a far longer training period, and likely have superior daily training, than Conrad's department. And all of that is taught by instructors with far more experience than likely any instructor available to Conrad.

    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-17-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Does your presentation include not making an attempt to rescue trapped occupants in the vehicle and allow them to die because, as you have stated many time in the past, "it happens"?
    It talks about the appropriate times to attempt rescues, yes. And also stresses the need for firefighter safety at these types of events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation is foolish. there is simply no comparison on any level.
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.

    Fire costume displayers is a better term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Maybe one more firefighter on the line... other than that, nothing else!
    and also knowing that a truck company is doing all the truck company operations. Also knowing that more engines/trucks are going to be on scene within a minute or two. Also knowing that dozens of FF's will be on the scene in a minute or two.

    But other than those small items.....not much is different.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.

    Fire costume displayers is a better term.
    So in other words, any agency that does not put the same level of responders and specialized companies on scene shouldn't call themselves a fire department, and any members that do not have the same experience level and training of the FDNY should not call themselves firefighters?

    That is what you said.

    Given that is your yardstick, that would rule out every VFD and 95% or more of the country's career departments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So in other words, any agency that does not put the same level of responders and specialized companies on scene shouldn't call themselves a fire department, and any members that do not have the same experience level and training of the FDNY should not call themselves firefighters?

    That is what you said.

    Given that is your yardstick, that would rule out every VFD and 95% or more of the country's career departments.
    You said it, I didn't. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.
    As much as I generally disagree with most of what LAFE posts, he's exactly right on this. Career or volunteer, there are very few departments that have the staffing levels, response times, station placement, funding, and other factors that the FDNY does. The FDNY is an anomaly in the US fire service and shouldn't be used for comparisons except in similar size departments.

    How did your former employers staffing, response, strategies, and tactics compare to New York City's? Not the same? I doubt you'd call your guys "costume wearers."
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You said it, I didn't. Thanks.
    That is exactly what you said.

    So then what did you mean?

    What exactly is your yardstick?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    and also knowing that a truck company is doing all the truck company operations. Also knowing that more engines/trucks are going to be on scene within a minute or two. Also knowing that dozens of FF's will be on the scene in a minute or two.

    But other than those small items.....not much is different.
    So are you backing excuses for not planning ahead to handle those fireground concerns?
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    You guys are getting hung up on the staffing level issue. If Chenzo can get a crew of 4 to knock down a rocking fire in that house he described while waiting for the second engine and mutual aid, why can't others do that? I have found myself more than a couple times over the years as a career firefighter stretching the first line interior with no one else on location except my rig.

    If you are going to use the excuse you don't have 50 people and 7 rigs on the scene for the first alarm, close down the fire house and save the tax payers the money of funding pretenders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    How did your former employers staffing, response, strategies, and tactics compare to New York City's? Not the same? I doubt you'd call your guys "costume wearers."
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.

    Where FDNY has us beat is the number of structure fires in a typical day. That has decreased significantly since I was hired in the 70's.

    We may have been lacking in some areas, but we were capable in ways they are not.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior. More importantly, many of my colleagues had no problem (and did routinely) stopping to help a citizen in need irrespective of whether or not they had the proper safety gear with them. Their mindset was to help those in need. Many of them rescued trapped individuals from burning cars and structures while off-duty. Something LAFE has stated he won't do because of the risk to this personal safety.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is exactly what you said.

    So then what did you mean?

    What exactly is your yardstick?
    No. That is what you said.

    My yardstick is a standard you've repeatedly stated you have no intention of even trying to achieve. That being the job of a firefighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.

    Where FDNY has us beat is the number of structure fires in a typical day. That has decreased significantly since I was hired in the 70's.

    We may have been lacking in some areas, but we were capable in ways they are not.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior. More importantly, many of my colleagues had no problem (and did routinely) stopping to help a citizen in need irrespective of whether or not they had the proper safety gear with them. Their mindset was to help those in need. Many of them rescued trapped individuals from burning cars and structures while off-duty. Something LAFE has stated he won't do because of the risk to this personal safety.
    FDNY has you severely beat.

    3 engines times 4-5 (Let's just say 4.5) = 11.5
    2 trucks x 5 = 10
    On the 10-75 they also get an squad, rescue company and another truck, so that's another 15.
    Right now we are at 36 plus 2 Chiefs.

    And I think they may get another engine on the 10-75 as well, plus if it's a commercial they get a 4 & 2 on the initial ticket.

    So even your former employer falls well behind FDNY.

    Except for the wildland side, I doubt that you can match FDNY for specialized resources.

    I think it's fair to say that nobody even comes close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No. That is what you said.

    My yardstick is a standard you've repeatedly stated you have no intention of even trying to achieve. That being the job of a firefighter.
    I'll achieve it when the resources allow me to.

    If the resources are not there to safely support interior ops, I will not put my members at risk.
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