And your locality had the population, tax base, and citizen support to make that happen. Many localities in the US don't. Some departments in those areas maintain an aggressive and calculated approach to fire suppression, while others are more conservative.Quote:
More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior.
A properly trained hose crew can knock the snot out of a fire. I have seen companies with 3 guys knock down heavy fire with no truck company coming and the next due engine 10 minutes out... two on the line, the pump operator, once the pressure is set grabs a tool and vents.Quote:
But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.
The members have likely also been to far more fires that Conrad and his partner, giving them far greater experience. They also have been to a far longer training period, and likely have superior daily training, than Conrad's department. And all of that is taught by instructors with far more experience than likely any instructor available to Conrad.
Fire burns the same whether it be in Manhattan or East Podunkville. As the first line goes, so goes the fire. You want to sit around and wait for all the vests in ICS to be flled, or wait for a chief to show up before doing anything, you are guaranteed to lose the building.Quote:
To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
I've made friends with fire chiefs in a very poor area of our state, and have seen first-hand their interaction with the locals. For example, one department has a $6000/year total operating budget (for fuel, insurance, vehicle maintenance, turnout gear, etc, etc) and has to choose which vehicle will respond on calls based on which one will start when they get to the station. Yet they're still lauded by the public in the local newspapers when they do community minded things including running calls that may have a less-than-desirable outcome.
There are many departments out there that you and I might consider "rural" when the fact is they're far closer to being suburban than many departments in the TRULY rural areas of this land.
If his class does get approved....I feel as though we have found a very acceptable spot for a FH Forums meet up....should make things fun!
The only advantage that engine will have will be knowing who's coming to help and when. I'll admit that's a huge advantage, but that's not why they do what they do.
I might not be very good at making comparisons LA but I will try to explain myself better, but probably not. So my question is what does a fire dept. put out fires with? Even if I was talking about the FDNY specifically, what is the one action that puts out fires? Would it be a firefighter on the end of a line opening a bail? Is it really that hard to figure out? If a guy shows up to teach a class in Bossier and brings a yellow fire truck and your dept. only has red trucks is the information useless? What about if the instructor has on black turnouts and yours are yellow, what would you do then? Throw him out? Ever seen a trailer house in down town Manhattan? Do you have hundred story buildings in Podunk L.A.? My god man, do we need to spoon feed it to you? Tactics are tactics. Big City U.S.A. implements those tactics differently than Small Town U.S.A out of necessity.
Dedication and commitment. All the resources in the known world mean nothing without dedication and commitment.
Argue with me on that last statement.
And I (and others) have repeatedly acknowledged and addressed that reality.Quote:
There are communities that will never have the resources - financial, manpower or mutual aid - to be an interior fire department. Like it or not that is the reality, and for them, they will not, in most cases, have the ability to operate interior or perform victim search operations
If that's not your view, then you should re-think how you present it because you certainly present your view of the fire service that way.Quote:
You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.
No, that's not my view, but I am realistic enough to know that as I stated above, there will always be departments that will not be able to operate interior the majority of the time. It may be financial resources that preclude them buying up to date turnout gear or SCBA. It may the need to operate older, unreliable apparatus. It may be large districts and extended response times with significant fire on arrival. It may be a small community with a very limited manpower pool and a lack of interior members because of that. It could be any number of very valid REASONS.
Is that the way that I like it? No. But I understand that in many places that is the way that it IS.
They may disagree, however they would be wrong and like you, they'd be missing the point being made. They may understand that their "fire department" is doing the best they can within their limitations and that may be the best effort that the community can realistically expect however, that doesn't mean that they are actually doing "the job" as he and many, many others see it to be. A true Fire Department makes the effort to fight fires and rescue victims.Quote:
While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".
Most communities that have such departments would disagree. They understand that they are doing "the job" as defined by their limitations.
It's not my portion of the fire service's definition, I was talking about the general expectations of the citizens we protect you buffoon!Quote:
The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property.
That's your portion of the fire service using that definition. There are large segments in the rural community that may not agree.
I think alot some of you guys are missing the point of the argument...
FDNY has the resources it has because of the area they serve.. And the potential risks that are there up to and including high value terrorist targets...
Where as a rural community filled with 20x20 2 story vacation homes don't need 3-4 engines, a truck and a rescue.. It's a waste of resources at hand and a waste of money because people need the 1.5 million dollar aerial or the 800,000 dollar heavy rescue that can't fit down most of the streets or actually serve a true purpose other then saying yup we got 1 of those..
And for the brownstone in Brooklyn or the middle of the row row home in Philly requires extra man power because of the sense population.. 40 or 50 people in a row home or mid rise..get my point.
It's all relative.. And engine man should be able to be familiar enough to do truck work and vice versa. You don't need a 105' tandom axle aerial to do truck work, or a huge walk thru rescue to do vehicle extrication or a basic rope rescue.
A small town of 500 who might have 1 working fire a year does not need and there is no justification for 20 pieces of apparatus, but that doesn't mean that the apparatus/manpower they have shouldn't be fit to fight.
The members on my VFD are committed to the department, that being said they are also committed to their other activities and may not dedicate the amount of time YOU feel that they should. For most of the members, the fire department is a part of their lives, not the focal point of their lives, and that's perfectly OK.
I have accepted that and I work within those parameters.
I don't care where Lt. McCormack is from. But don't take that as a dig, because it is not. If he was from Billings Montana I would listen to what he has to say. I read a lot of blogs from firefighters around the country who have good things to say that run fewer calls than my dinky dept. He talks about dedication and commitment. Dedication to be a better firefighter and commitment to the people we serve. I have never read an article of his where he told me that if I don't have his resources available I should just quit. You don't have to be from a huge city to be a squared away firefighter.
Fire Departments don't put out fires and save people, firefighters do. Firefighters who are dedicated to the job.
If you don't have dedication and commitment you should do something else like be an accountant.
And you know the general expectations of those citizens? Not likely. As CaptOT said, often the citizens of those communities are damn happy with what they have and respectfully refer to the fire department in very positive terms.
Don't superimpose the expectations of YOUR citizens on to THEM as they likely are very different.
Yep, I pretty much read everything I can get my hands on by the Lt. I also read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on by Paul Gleason, although I would not expect many here to know too much about him. I read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on, decide what makes sense to me and what does not. But the key is to keep reading and listening.;) (silly face added for......?)
If I only listened to firefighters that I knew, crap, I only know a few.
Sorry fellers if it seems like I have been shot out of a cannon, but I have been in fire camp the last three days. To make up for it I will ad more silly faces....:(:):confused::eek::mad::rolleyes: There, that should do it.
Damn it! I don't even recall what it is we were supposed to be discussing.
Right or safe? If you want right or safe go find another career or organization to volunteer to. Frankly, it is rarely right when it comes to staffing, and this job will NEVER, EVER, NEVER, be entirely safe until the day arrives that we don't resond at all. Because the second we jump on the BRT and head out the door running red lights and siren until the second we back back in, shut down the engine and close the bay doors we are not 100% safe.
What is right for staffing? 50 for a first alarms for a structure fire? The FDNY guys here have repeatedly stated staffing cuts are making their job unsafe. So if that is true, and I won't say it isn't for them because I am not there, what is the right number? Because if it is 50 both of my POC FDs might as well shut down because adding them together we can't muster 50 for a first alarm. So what do we do? Wring our hands? Pizz and moan about the unfairness of it all? Give up all hope and say we suck and always will? Not me and not any of the FDs I am a member of. My career FD for a first alarm depending on staffing that day might get 17, 19 or 21. Either of my POC FDs, depending on time of day, day of the week, and so on, may get anywhere from 4 to 20 or so. We do what we can do and that includes going interior is possible for fire attack and search.
I just wonder how many FDs wait on scene until the entire first alarm assignment is on location before they attempt any interior fireground ops. Because I have never been on an FD that operates that way and I have never seen one that operates that way.
Do you have an answer or is this the best you can do. Because wishing you had a truck company but you don't, and wishing you had 50 guys and you don't, seems stupid and defeatist to me. I train our guys to be aggressive with minimal staffing, IF the situation allows. We don't do hose advance drills with 6 guys on a line because it isn't real. We do it with 2 or 3. We practice stretching a big line with a portable deluge with that same 2 or 3. THAT's how Chenzo knew with 4 he had a chance if he moved quick. 2 on the attack line, one on an outside control line, and one on the pump. It may not be what the text book says but the house is standing, the homeowner is very grateful and everyone went home safe and sound.