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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll achieve it when the resources allow me to.

    If the resources are not there to safely support interior ops, I will not put my members at risk.
    You've now progressed from pathetic to pitiful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You guys are getting hung up on the staffing level issue. If Chenzo can get a crew of 4 to knock down a rocking fire in that house he described while waiting for the second engine and mutual aid, why can't others do that? I have found myself more than a couple times over the years as a career firefighter stretching the first line interior with no one else on location except my rig.
    I hope that your statement is directed to LAFE specifically. If not, I hope you're kidding or entertaining us with satire. So he knocks a house fire with four people? I'm sure those of us in rural areas (or career departments with below-average staffing) have all accomplished the same. Does that mean it was right or safe? In many cases, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.
    And we put 22 personnel on scene on our first alarm assignment for house fires and 31 for special hazard and high-rises. We have fireboats, a technical rescue team that includes FEMA USAR members, dive teams, a large hazmat team that responds regionally, and other support functions. In no way, however, would we ever compare ourselves to the FDNY and I would frankly be embarrassed if one of our members tried to make that comparison.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior.
    And your locality had the population, tax base, and citizen support to make that happen. Many localities in the US don't. Some departments in those areas maintain an aggressive and calculated approach to fire suppression, while others are more conservative.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 06-17-2013 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    And your locality had the population, tax base, and citizen support to make that happen. Many localities in the US don't. Some departments in those areas maintain an aggressive and calculated approach to fire suppression, while others are more conservative.
    Do the citizens in those locales know the capabilities of their FDs? Does the FD tell them if they are trapped inside their burning home there's a good chance no one is coming to help them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There's no doubt that by NY he was referring to FDNY.
    So now you're a psychic?

    But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.
    A properly trained hose crew can knock the snot out of a fire. I have seen companies with 3 guys knock down heavy fire with no truck company coming and the next due engine 10 minutes out... two on the line, the pump operator, once the pressure is set grabs a tool and vents.

    The members have likely also been to far more fires that Conrad and his partner, giving them far greater experience. They also have been to a far longer training period, and likely have superior daily training, than Conrad's department. And all of that is taught by instructors with far more experience than likely any instructor available to Conrad.
    Not necessarily.

    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Fire burns the same whether it be in Manhattan or East Podunkville. As the first line goes, so goes the fire. You want to sit around and wait for all the vests in ICS to be flled, or wait for a chief to show up before doing anything, you are guaranteed to lose the building.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Do the citizens in those locales know the capabilities of their FDs? Does the FD tell them if they are trapped inside their burning home there's a good chance no one is coming to help them?
    Without personally going down there and interviewing them, I wouldn't know. However, you'd be surprised to find out that there are a number of areas where the citizens are very aware of the limitations that volunteer fire departments have (funding, staffing, equipment, even training) and accept that it's one of the risks that they take when they purchase a home in that area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Without personally going down there and interviewing them, I wouldn't know. However, you'd be surprised to find out that there are a number of areas where the citizens are very aware of the limitations that volunteer fire departments have (funding, staffing, equipment, even training) and accept that it's one of the risks that they take when they purchase a home in that area.
    And a lot of them are the first ones to cry to the media that "The FD didn't do enough" and threaten to sue the FD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    And a lot of them are the first ones to cry to the media that "The FD didn't do enough" and threaten to sue the FD.
    I have to disagree.

    I've made friends with fire chiefs in a very poor area of our state, and have seen first-hand their interaction with the locals. For example, one department has a $6000/year total operating budget (for fuel, insurance, vehicle maintenance, turnout gear, etc, etc) and has to choose which vehicle will respond on calls based on which one will start when they get to the station. Yet they're still lauded by the public in the local newspapers when they do community minded things including running calls that may have a less-than-desirable outcome.

    There are many departments out there that you and I might consider "rural" when the fact is they're far closer to being suburban than many departments in the TRULY rural areas of this land.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I have to disagree.

    I've made friends with fire chiefs in a very poor area of our state, and have seen first-hand their interaction with the locals. For example, one department has a $6000/year total operating budget (for fuel, insurance, vehicle maintenance, turnout gear, etc, etc) and has to choose which vehicle will respond on calls based on which one will start when they get to the station. Yet they're still lauded by the public in the local newspapers when they do community minded things including running calls that may have a less-than-desirable outcome.

    There are many departments out there that you and I might consider "rural" when the fact is they're far closer to being suburban than many departments in the TRULY rural areas of this land.
    Any call a fire department responds to, whether they be poor rural or rich metro area can have a less than desireable outcome...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    If his class does get approved....I feel as though we have found a very acceptable spot for a FH Forums meet up....should make things fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
    There are many times when an FDNY engine arrives alone and operates alone before any help arrives. They stretch a line, force doors and begin line advance on fire. In extreme cases they perform rescue instead of extinguishment. They may have more experience and personnel on that engine but they do not under any circumstances sit around and wait for reinforcements.

    The only advantage that engine will have will be knowing who's coming to help and when. I'll admit that's a huge advantage, but that's not why they do what they do.

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    I might not be very good at making comparisons LA but I will try to explain myself better, but probably not. So my question is what does a fire dept. put out fires with? Even if I was talking about the FDNY specifically, what is the one action that puts out fires? Would it be a firefighter on the end of a line opening a bail? Is it really that hard to figure out? If a guy shows up to teach a class in Bossier and brings a yellow fire truck and your dept. only has red trucks is the information useless? What about if the instructor has on black turnouts and yours are yellow, what would you do then? Throw him out? Ever seen a trailer house in down town Manhattan? Do you have hundred story buildings in Podunk L.A.? My god man, do we need to spoon feed it to you? Tactics are tactics. Big City U.S.A. implements those tactics differently than Small Town U.S.A out of necessity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I think I see the problem, it's a fundamental difference in definitions.

    "The job" is about being prepared (trained and equipped) to handle (at the very least) the incidents you will likely encounter as a department, responding in a timely manor and actually performing the tasks expected of a Fire Department in a competent fashion. This would include things like victim search supported by interior fire attack.


    If you want to include victim search and rescue and interior fire attack as a mandatory part of the job, have at it. I don't, especially in rural areas with very limited manpower, and in some cases, questionable or unreliable equipment resources.
    If "I" want to include those things "as a mandatory part of the job", are you freakin' kidding me? THAT IS "THE JOB"!!! THOSE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL CORE SERVICES A FIRE DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE!!!!!!!!!

    There are communities that will never have the resources - financial, manpower or mutual aid - to be an interior fire department. Like it or not that is the reality, and for them, they will not, in most cases, have the ability to operate interior or perform victim search operations
    And I (and others) have repeatedly acknowledged and addressed that reality.

    You view doing "the job" as simply hanging up the "fire department" shingle and then sending the BRT to a call for service. Anything else is a bonus. This is a view that is completely opposite of his view and many, many others in the fire service.

    No, that's not my view, but I am realistic enough to know that as I stated above, there will always be departments that will not be able to operate interior the majority of the time. It may be financial resources that preclude them buying up to date turnout gear or SCBA. It may the need to operate older, unreliable apparatus. It may be large districts and extended response times with significant fire on arrival. It may be a small community with a very limited manpower pool and a lack of interior members because of that. It could be any number of very valid REASONS.

    Is that the way that I like it? No. But I understand that in many places that is the way that it IS.
    If that's not your view, then you should re-think how you present it because you certainly present your view of the fire service that way.

    While these rural and small departments that you like to champion may be doing the best they can with what they have to work with, the fact is, as you've pointed out, they may not be able to perform at the same level as other departments, like the ones he may be most familiar with. As such, they may not actually be doing "the job".

    Most communities that have such departments would disagree. They understand that they are doing "the job" as defined by their limitations.
    They may disagree, however they would be wrong and like you, they'd be missing the point being made. They may understand that their "fire department" is doing the best they can within their limitations and that may be the best effort that the community can realistically expect however, that doesn't mean that they are actually doing "the job" as he and many, many others see it to be. A true Fire Department makes the effort to fight fires and rescue victims.

    The general expectation of the fire service is to put out fires, rescue victims and save property.

    That's your portion of the fire service using that definition. There are large segments in the rural community that may not agree.
    It's not my portion of the fire service's definition, I was talking about the general expectations of the citizens we protect you buffoon!
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    I think alot some of you guys are missing the point of the argument...

    FDNY has the resources it has because of the area they serve.. And the potential risks that are there up to and including high value terrorist targets...

    Where as a rural community filled with 20x20 2 story vacation homes don't need 3-4 engines, a truck and a rescue.. It's a waste of resources at hand and a waste of money because people need the 1.5 million dollar aerial or the 800,000 dollar heavy rescue that can't fit down most of the streets or actually serve a true purpose other then saying yup we got 1 of those..

    And for the brownstone in Brooklyn or the middle of the row row home in Philly requires extra man power because of the sense population.. 40 or 50 people in a row home or mid rise..get my point.

    It's all relative.. And engine man should be able to be familiar enough to do truck work and vice versa. You don't need a 105' tandom axle aerial to do truck work, or a huge walk thru rescue to do vehicle extrication or a basic rope rescue.

    A small town of 500 who might have 1 working fire a year does not need and there is no justification for 20 pieces of apparatus, but that doesn't mean that the apparatus/manpower they have shouldn't be fit to fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I think alot some of you guys are missing the point of the argument...

    FDNY has the resources it has because of the area they serve.. And the potential risks that are there up to and including high value terrorist targets...

    Where as a rural community filled with 20x20 2 story vacation homes don't need 3-4 engines, a truck and a rescue.. It's a waste of resources at hand and a waste of money because people need the 1.5 million dollar aerial or the 800,000 dollar heavy rescue that can't fit down most of the streets or actually serve a true purpose other then saying yup we got 1 of those..

    And for the brownstone in Brooklyn or the middle of the row row home in Philly requires extra man power because of the sense population.. 40 or 50 people in a row home or mid rise..get my point.

    It's all relative.. And engine man should be able to be familiar enough to do truck work and vice versa. You don't need a 105' tandom axle aerial to do truck work, or a huge walk thru rescue to do vehicle extrication or a basic rope rescue.

    A small town of 500 who might have 1 working fire a year does not need and there is no justification for 20 pieces of apparatus, but that doesn't mean that the apparatus/manpower they have shouldn't be fit to fight.
    Can you like a post more than once? EXACTALY!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I might not be very good at making comparisons LA but I will try to explain myself better, but probably not. So my question is what does a fire dept. put out fires with? Even if I was talking about the FDNY specifically, what is the one action that puts out fires? Would it be a firefighter on the end of a line opening a bail?

    And how effective that firefighter will be depends on a number of factors including his/her training and experience, the response time of the fire department to the emergency, the manpower on-scene to provide ventilation, the manpower on scene to provide water supply and the manpower on-scene to assist in moving that line.

    And yes, a larger department will have shorter response times, more and task-dedicated manpower, better and more relaiable water supplies and a host of factors that will mean the fire is smaller when the crews arrive and tasks supporting interior ops such as ventilation and backup lines will be done more rapidly because of the increased manpower.


    Is it really that hard to figure out? If a guy shows up to teach a class in Bossier and brings a yellow fire truck and your dept. only has red trucks is the information useless? What about if the instructor has on black turnouts and yours are yellow, what would you do then? Throw him out? Ever seen a trailer house in down town Manhattan? Do you have hundred story buildings in Podunk L.A.? My god man, do we need to spoon feed it to you? Tactics are tactics.

    No .. tactics are not tactics. Tactics are shaped by training, experience and resources. the tactics of the FDNY where they have 30 folks and 8 companies on the first alarm will not work in a department that has 5 or 6 members responding on the first alarm. the tactics a department uses are very often manpower based.


    Big City U.S.A. implements those tactics differently than Small Town U.S.A out of necessity.

    And because of that they are different.

    Dedication and commitment. All the resources in the known world mean nothing without dedication and commitment.
    Argue with me on that last statement.
    Depends on how you define dedication and commitment.

    The members on my VFD are committed to the department, that being said they are also committed to their other activities and may not dedicate the amount of time YOU feel that they should. For most of the members, the fire department is a part of their lives, not the focal point of their lives, and that's perfectly OK.

    I have accepted that and I work within those parameters.
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    I don't care where Lt. McCormack is from. But don't take that as a dig, because it is not. If he was from Billings Montana I would listen to what he has to say. I read a lot of blogs from firefighters around the country who have good things to say that run fewer calls than my dinky dept. He talks about dedication and commitment. Dedication to be a better firefighter and commitment to the people we serve. I have never read an article of his where he told me that if I don't have his resources available I should just quit. You don't have to be from a huge city to be a squared away firefighter.
    Fire Departments don't put out fires and save people, firefighters do. Firefighters who are dedicated to the job.

    If you don't have dedication and commitment you should do something else like be an accountant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    If "I" want to include those things "as a mandatory part of the job", are you freakin' kidding me? THAT IS "THE JOB"!!! THOSE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL CORE SERVICES A FIRE DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE!!!!!!!!!

    And in many places it simply isn't possible, and likely never will be possible.

    For many rural VFDs the core service is to contain it to the building or origin, and in many of those places the community is happy with that role.

    You may not like it, and it may not fit your expectation of what a fire department should do, but it's the reality in a lot of places in this country.


    And I (and others) have repeatedly acknowledged and addressed that reality.

    Then why do you keep fighting it and keep trying to press your expectations of a fire department on those communities?

    If that's not your view, then you should re-think how you present it because you certainly present your view of the fire service that way.

    I understand the reality and have no issues with that reality. I have no desire to press expectations on any fire department that is either incapable or unwilling to operate interior.

    It's perfectly fine with me if they operate that way, either by choice or by the reality of their circumstances.


    They may disagree, however they would be wrong and like you, they'd be missing the point being made. They may understand that their "fire department" is doing the best they can within their limitations and that may be the best effort that the community can realistically expect however, that doesn't mean that they are actually doing "the job" as he and many, many others see it to be. A true Fire Department makes the effort to fight fires and rescue victims.

    That's based on your definition of "the job". that doesn't make it the right definition.


    It's not my portion of the fire service's definition, I was talking about the general expectations of the citizens we protect you buffoon!

    And you know the general expectations of those citizens? Not likely. As CaptOT said, often the citizens of those communities are damn happy with what they have and respectfully refer to the fire department in very positive terms.

    Don't superimpose the expectations of YOUR citizens on to THEM as they likely are very different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Depends on how you define dedication and commitment.

    The members on my VFD are committed to the department, that being said they are also committed to their other activities and may not dedicate the amount of time YOU feel that they should. For most of the members, the fire department is a part of their lives, not the focal point of their lives, and that's perfectly OK.

    I have accepted that and I work within those parameters.
    Dedicated to the department? Not the people they serve? I did a demonstration a couple of months ago at our dept. I sat down on the bench in front of my gear, closed my eyes and started pounding my fists into my legs while shouting "ME ME ME ME ME ME!"
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    sidebar.....

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I don't care where Lt. McCormack is from. But don't take that as a dig, because it is not. If he was from Billings Montana I would listen to what he has to say. I read a lot of blogs from firefighters around the country who have good things to say that run fewer calls than my dinky dept. He talks about dedication and commitment. Dedication to be a better firefighter and commitment to the people we serve. I have never read an article of his where he told me that if I don't have his resources available I should just quit. You don't have to be from a huge city to be a squared away firefighter.
    Fire Departments don't put out fires and save people, firefighters do. Firefighters who are dedicated to the job.

    If you don't have dedication and commitment you should do something else like be an accountant.
    Brings up a curious question....how do you decide to "listen" to a FF that you don't know? What do you base it on? I know of a pompous old man that is published and a regular contributor to a national magazine....he's full of great old stories (once in a while a factual one too) and there are many who respect him as a FF expert. I won't name him, as that is not the point....but what are people using to decide these guys are the ones to listen to?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So are you backing excuses for not planning ahead to handle those fireground concerns?
    uh ya, that's exactly what I'm doing....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    sidebar.....



    Brings up a curious question....how do you decide to "listen" to a FF that you don't know? What do you base it on? I know of a pompous old man that is published and a regular contributor to a national magazine....he's full of great old stories (once in a while a factual one too) and there are many who respect him as a FF expert. I won't name him, as that is not the point....but what are people using to decide these guys are the ones to listen to?
    Apparently you read some of the periodicals. What are your criteria? What is the big deal? I have probably been given information that is wrong and it will take me some time to separate the junk from the treasure. I think the key is to be smart enough to ask questions and not be too arrogant to listen.
    Yep, I pretty much read everything I can get my hands on by the Lt. I also read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on by Paul Gleason, although I would not expect many here to know too much about him. I read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on, decide what makes sense to me and what does not. But the key is to keep reading and listening. (silly face added for......?)

    If I only listened to firefighters that I knew, crap, I only know a few.
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-18-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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    Sorry fellers if it seems like I have been shot out of a cannon, but I have been in fire camp the last three days. To make up for it I will ad more silly faces.... There, that should do it.



    Damn it! I don't even recall what it is we were supposed to be discussing.
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-18-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I hope that your statement is directed to LAFE specifically. If not, I hope you're kidding or entertaining us with satire. So he knocks a house fire with four people? I'm sure those of us in rural areas (or career departments with below-average staffing) have all accomplished the same. Does that mean it was right or safe? In many cases, no.
    Actually, no it wasn't specifically to LA, it was to a few of you who talk on and on about having to have x-number of people before you can do anything. Sorry I am not buying it. A single crew with a hoseline, properly placed, can mean the difference between saving the house or burning it down. That same single crew can be the difference between saving gramma or listening to her screams as she burns to death. I think reading what Chenzo wrote, and speaking with him about this call, that he made a good calculated, informed decision and executed his plan and saved the house. You and others may find fault with that due to safety reasons but the truth is none of you were there, saw what he saw, and used that info the best way he saw fit.

    Right or safe? If you want right or safe go find another career or organization to volunteer to. Frankly, it is rarely right when it comes to staffing, and this job will NEVER, EVER, NEVER, be entirely safe until the day arrives that we don't resond at all. Because the second we jump on the BRT and head out the door running red lights and siren until the second we back back in, shut down the engine and close the bay doors we are not 100% safe.

    What is right for staffing? 50 for a first alarms for a structure fire? The FDNY guys here have repeatedly stated staffing cuts are making their job unsafe. So if that is true, and I won't say it isn't for them because I am not there, what is the right number? Because if it is 50 both of my POC FDs might as well shut down because adding them together we can't muster 50 for a first alarm. So what do we do? Wring our hands? Pizz and moan about the unfairness of it all? Give up all hope and say we suck and always will? Not me and not any of the FDs I am a member of. My career FD for a first alarm depending on staffing that day might get 17, 19 or 21. Either of my POC FDs, depending on time of day, day of the week, and so on, may get anywhere from 4 to 20 or so. We do what we can do and that includes going interior is possible for fire attack and search.

    I just wonder how many FDs wait on scene until the entire first alarm assignment is on location before they attempt any interior fireground ops. Because I have never been on an FD that operates that way and I have never seen one that operates that way.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #99
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    FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    uh ya, that's exactly what I'm doing....
    So, let me see if I get you here. I ask a serious question and you post a smart azz answer and a roll eyes smiley face. BRILLIANT!

    Do you have an answer or is this the best you can do. Because wishing you had a truck company but you don't, and wishing you had 50 guys and you don't, seems stupid and defeatist to me. I train our guys to be aggressive with minimal staffing, IF the situation allows. We don't do hose advance drills with 6 guys on a line because it isn't real. We do it with 2 or 3. We practice stretching a big line with a portable deluge with that same 2 or 3. THAT's how Chenzo knew with 4 he had a chance if he moved quick. 2 on the attack line, one on an outside control line, and one on the pump. It may not be what the text book says but the house is standing, the homeowner is very grateful and everyone went home safe and sound.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    As much as I generally disagree with most of what LAFE posts, he's exactly right on this. Career or volunteer, there are very few departments that have the staffing levels, response times, station placement, funding, and other factors that the FDNY does. The FDNY is an anomaly in the US fire service and shouldn't be used for comparisons except in similar size departments.

    How did your former employers staffing, response, strategies, and tactics compare to New York City's? Not the same? I doubt you'd call your guys "costume wearers."
    Come on. You think I am comparing depts.? That is unbelievable! If that is the case tell me how a big dept. gets all forty guys on the end of ONE nozzle. How is a three or four man hose team different in a big city compared to a three or four man hose team in a small town? Both have PPE. Both got there on a firetruck. Both got dispatched. Both advanced a line into a house and put the fire out. Both used situational awareness. Both were trained and dedicated. What the hell in all of that is department specific? Did the big guys get there in limos or shoot water from the harbor from a nuclear powered fire sub or get to the roof with hovercraft?
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-18-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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