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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    reading the background the video poster wrote, it was a fairly new crew. But apparently they had some "want to" and a training officer that set the bar fairly high. They didn't stand out in the yard and whine " you knew what you were getting when you called us" -they put out a solid effort and pretty much stopped the fire in its tracks. Do you really mean the only thing that really matters is every one going home uninjured? -Again , no one to my knowledge is advocating a suicide mission but to say -yeah buddy you lost everything -your kids are crying their eyes out over their dead dog , but hey , me and my overweight buddies are going home to our intact homes and eating some fried catfish, without a scratch.
    Yes, everyone of my personnel, and mutual aid personnel, going home uninjured is, as either an IC or a crew leader, my priority at every incident.

    Most of my volunteer members have families, and in some of the cases, they are the sole providers. There is no wage protection for volunteer members under workman's comp in this state, so yes, it is my priority that every member will be able to go to work their next scheduled shift. That is my primary responsibility as an officer - the welfare of my personnel and the ability for them to continue to provide for their families.

    If I can do that and still be effective in knocking down the fire, saving property and saving lives, that's great. But I will not put that in front of the physical health of my members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    More obfuscation from you, Bobby. Conrad asked what is the difference between his FD and an engine company from "NY" (no specific community specified) pulling a line.

    Keep making excuses.. it is what you do best.
    There's no doubt that by NY he was referring to FDNY.

    But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.

    The members have likely also been to far more fires that Conrad and his partner, giving them far greater experience. They also have been to a far longer training period, and likely have superior daily training, than Conrad's department. And all of that is taught by instructors with far more experience than likely any instructor available to Conrad.

    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-17-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Does your presentation include not making an attempt to rescue trapped occupants in the vehicle and allow them to die because, as you have stated many time in the past, "it happens"?
    It talks about the appropriate times to attempt rescues, yes. And also stresses the need for firefighter safety at these types of events.
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  4. #64
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation is foolish. there is simply no comparison on any level.
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.

    Fire costume displayers is a better term.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Maybe one more firefighter on the line... other than that, nothing else!
    and also knowing that a truck company is doing all the truck company operations. Also knowing that more engines/trucks are going to be on scene within a minute or two. Also knowing that dozens of FF's will be on the scene in a minute or two.

    But other than those small items.....not much is different.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.

    Fire costume displayers is a better term.
    So in other words, any agency that does not put the same level of responders and specialized companies on scene shouldn't call themselves a fire department, and any members that do not have the same experience level and training of the FDNY should not call themselves firefighters?

    That is what you said.

    Given that is your yardstick, that would rule out every VFD and 95% or more of the country's career departments.
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  7. #67
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So in other words, any agency that does not put the same level of responders and specialized companies on scene shouldn't call themselves a fire department, and any members that do not have the same experience level and training of the FDNY should not call themselves firefighters?

    That is what you said.

    Given that is your yardstick, that would rule out every VFD and 95% or more of the country's career departments.
    You said it, I didn't. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is exactly why you and your pathetic group shouldn't be call themselves firefighters.
    As much as I generally disagree with most of what LAFE posts, he's exactly right on this. Career or volunteer, there are very few departments that have the staffing levels, response times, station placement, funding, and other factors that the FDNY does. The FDNY is an anomaly in the US fire service and shouldn't be used for comparisons except in similar size departments.

    How did your former employers staffing, response, strategies, and tactics compare to New York City's? Not the same? I doubt you'd call your guys "costume wearers."
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You said it, I didn't. Thanks.
    That is exactly what you said.

    So then what did you mean?

    What exactly is your yardstick?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    and also knowing that a truck company is doing all the truck company operations. Also knowing that more engines/trucks are going to be on scene within a minute or two. Also knowing that dozens of FF's will be on the scene in a minute or two.

    But other than those small items.....not much is different.
    So are you backing excuses for not planning ahead to handle those fireground concerns?
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    You guys are getting hung up on the staffing level issue. If Chenzo can get a crew of 4 to knock down a rocking fire in that house he described while waiting for the second engine and mutual aid, why can't others do that? I have found myself more than a couple times over the years as a career firefighter stretching the first line interior with no one else on location except my rig.

    If you are going to use the excuse you don't have 50 people and 7 rigs on the scene for the first alarm, close down the fire house and save the tax payers the money of funding pretenders.
    Chenzo likes this.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    How did your former employers staffing, response, strategies, and tactics compare to New York City's? Not the same? I doubt you'd call your guys "costume wearers."
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.

    Where FDNY has us beat is the number of structure fires in a typical day. That has decreased significantly since I was hired in the 70's.

    We may have been lacking in some areas, but we were capable in ways they are not.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior. More importantly, many of my colleagues had no problem (and did routinely) stopping to help a citizen in need irrespective of whether or not they had the proper safety gear with them. Their mindset was to help those in need. Many of them rescued trapped individuals from burning cars and structures while off-duty. Something LAFE has stated he won't do because of the risk to this personal safety.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is exactly what you said.

    So then what did you mean?

    What exactly is your yardstick?
    No. That is what you said.

    My yardstick is a standard you've repeatedly stated you have no intention of even trying to achieve. That being the job of a firefighter.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.

    Where FDNY has us beat is the number of structure fires in a typical day. That has decreased significantly since I was hired in the 70's.

    We may have been lacking in some areas, but we were capable in ways they are not.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior. More importantly, many of my colleagues had no problem (and did routinely) stopping to help a citizen in need irrespective of whether or not they had the proper safety gear with them. Their mindset was to help those in need. Many of them rescued trapped individuals from burning cars and structures while off-duty. Something LAFE has stated he won't do because of the risk to this personal safety.
    FDNY has you severely beat.

    3 engines times 4-5 (Let's just say 4.5) = 11.5
    2 trucks x 5 = 10
    On the 10-75 they also get an squad, rescue company and another truck, so that's another 15.
    Right now we are at 36 plus 2 Chiefs.

    And I think they may get another engine on the 10-75 as well, plus if it's a commercial they get a 4 & 2 on the initial ticket.

    So even your former employer falls well behind FDNY.

    Except for the wildland side, I doubt that you can match FDNY for specialized resources.

    I think it's fair to say that nobody even comes close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No. That is what you said.

    My yardstick is a standard you've repeatedly stated you have no intention of even trying to achieve. That being the job of a firefighter.
    I'll achieve it when the resources allow me to.

    If the resources are not there to safely support interior ops, I will not put my members at risk.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll achieve it when the resources allow me to.

    If the resources are not there to safely support interior ops, I will not put my members at risk.
    You've now progressed from pathetic to pitiful.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You guys are getting hung up on the staffing level issue. If Chenzo can get a crew of 4 to knock down a rocking fire in that house he described while waiting for the second engine and mutual aid, why can't others do that? I have found myself more than a couple times over the years as a career firefighter stretching the first line interior with no one else on location except my rig.
    I hope that your statement is directed to LAFE specifically. If not, I hope you're kidding or entertaining us with satire. So he knocks a house fire with four people? I'm sure those of us in rural areas (or career departments with below-average staffing) have all accomplished the same. Does that mean it was right or safe? In many cases, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We were able to put 16 FF's into a first alarm assignment anywhere in our locale. The only capability FDNY had that we lacked was the fireboats. I could counter that by saying we were able to provide heli-support to wildland incidents and Type III response which the FDNY also lacks.
    And we put 22 personnel on scene on our first alarm assignment for house fires and 31 for special hazard and high-rises. We have fireboats, a technical rescue team that includes FEMA USAR members, dive teams, a large hazmat team that responds regionally, and other support functions. In no way, however, would we ever compare ourselves to the FDNY and I would frankly be embarrassed if one of our members tried to make that comparison.

    More importantly, all of our firefighters were capable of doing any job on the fireground without specifying whether or not they were capable of going interior.
    And your locality had the population, tax base, and citizen support to make that happen. Many localities in the US don't. Some departments in those areas maintain an aggressive and calculated approach to fire suppression, while others are more conservative.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 06-17-2013 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    And your locality had the population, tax base, and citizen support to make that happen. Many localities in the US don't. Some departments in those areas maintain an aggressive and calculated approach to fire suppression, while others are more conservative.
    Do the citizens in those locales know the capabilities of their FDs? Does the FD tell them if they are trapped inside their burning home there's a good chance no one is coming to help them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There's no doubt that by NY he was referring to FDNY.
    So now you're a psychic?

    But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.
    A properly trained hose crew can knock the snot out of a fire. I have seen companies with 3 guys knock down heavy fire with no truck company coming and the next due engine 10 minutes out... two on the line, the pump operator, once the pressure is set grabs a tool and vents.

    The members have likely also been to far more fires that Conrad and his partner, giving them far greater experience. They also have been to a far longer training period, and likely have superior daily training, than Conrad's department. And all of that is taught by instructors with far more experience than likely any instructor available to Conrad.
    Not necessarily.

    To compare Conrad's operation in a rural, or even suburban area, to an FDNY operation, and say that at any level they are the same, is foolish. There is simply no comparison on any level.
    Fire burns the same whether it be in Manhattan or East Podunkville. As the first line goes, so goes the fire. You want to sit around and wait for all the vests in ICS to be flled, or wait for a chief to show up before doing anything, you are guaranteed to lose the building.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Do the citizens in those locales know the capabilities of their FDs? Does the FD tell them if they are trapped inside their burning home there's a good chance no one is coming to help them?
    Without personally going down there and interviewing them, I wouldn't know. However, you'd be surprised to find out that there are a number of areas where the citizens are very aware of the limitations that volunteer fire departments have (funding, staffing, equipment, even training) and accept that it's one of the risks that they take when they purchase a home in that area.
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