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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Depends on how you define dedication and commitment.

    The members on my VFD are committed to the department, that being said they are also committed to their other activities and may not dedicate the amount of time YOU feel that they should. For most of the members, the fire department is a part of their lives, not the focal point of their lives, and that's perfectly OK.

    I have accepted that and I work within those parameters.
    You've stated repeatedly your justifications for you and your FD's pathetic behavior.

    We're very aware of your desire to get out of doing anything meaningful other than prancing around in a costume.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    The problem is that there are hundreds or possibly even thousands of departments, primarily small community and rural volunteer or 1-3 man combo FDs that simply will never have the resources to "do the job" as he perceives it, and I have never seen him acknowledge that the fact. he seems to have to have to line of thinking that every department should "do the job", and that is simply an unrealistic view of the fire service.
    We do it everytime the pager goes off.... Whether we have one engine with 4 guys, or we empty the station. How do we do it? We don't make excuses as to why we can't do it....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Given the number of class submissions each year, and the fact that there may be folks on the review board who may be here or may have been here, and disagree with my opinions, there is a likelihood that the class will not be accepted, which is cool.
    Why am I not surprised that you will so willingly accept rejection and failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If you want to include victim search and rescue and interior fire attack as a mandatory part of the job, have at it. I don't, especially in rural areas with very limited manpower, and in some cases, questionable or unreliable equipment resources.
    You've gone beyond being a disgrace to the fire service, you're a disgrace to mankind. God forbid you do anything remotely dangerous to help your fellow man. You're a coward, Bobby. Simple as that. A big fat coward.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    There are communities that will never have the resources - financial, manpower or mutual aid - to be an interior fire department. Like it or not that is the reality, and for them, they will not, in most cases, have the ability to operate interior or perform victim search operations
    Then they should hold a meeting at the town hall and tell the citizens, who expect the FD to show up and save their family members, possessions, and property, that you can't do anything except lob water from the outside and hope for the best, or that you're just going to back off and "let nature take it's course."

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Is that the way that I like it? No. But I understand that in many places that is the way that it IS.
    Don't lie anymore, that's EXACTLY the way you like it. You just want to show up in the truck with your gear and appear superior to the lowly citizens. You don't give two schitts if you save the house or burn it down, as long as you continue to think you're better than the citizens you signed up to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I know in my VFD FDNY would have far more personnel, truck companies; a rescue company,a squad company with very specialized equipment and capabilities, and additional Chief officers as well as a whole lot more training and more importantly, experience.

    Even my combo department with paid staff and a significant volunteer response can't even come close to the training and experience, even though we may match numbers on the first alarm, but after that, what we can bring in on second alarm/mutual aid is quite limited.

    So in both worlds, there are significant differences.

    To think otherwise makes no sense.
    More excuses to not do what you signed up for. God forbid you put some effort into anything other than excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Yes, everyone of my personnel, and mutual aid personnel, going home uninjured is, as either an IC or a crew leader, my priority at every incident.
    That's every department, officer, IC, firefighter, etc priority. However that doesn't mean we stand around with our thumbs in our azzes because the fire is hot and it's dark in there. We go to work, doing what we were trained to do, to try and make the loss not so substantial, or to try and save the life of another human being. Keep hiding behind your safety vest, like you're the only one who cares if everyone goes home. That's all you seem to be good at anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Most of my volunteer members have families, and in some of the cases, they are the sole providers.
    Yeah, same with the members at both of my departments. Yet we still make aggressive attacks, save property, and go home at the end of the day....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    But I will not put that in front of the physical health of my members.
    Unless it involves a physical. Then you'll say it's unneccessary and let the 400lb driver keel over from a heart attack...

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    But that one hoseline can be more aggressive because they know they have a truck company ventilating and a truck company searching. They know that they have at least one other engine company operating a backup line. They know that they have personnel securing water. They know that there is enough command staff to observe fire conditions from the exterior and manage the incident. They know that they have a squad and a rescue, and in many cases, a truck as well, available for RIT or opening up the structure providing escape routes.
    More excuses. If you'd put the fire out, instead of worrying about filling your vests, the majority of the danger would go away.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    It talks about the appropriate times to attempt rescues, yes.
    So, if it's "taught" by you, that means that rescues should never be attempted... I didn't know you needed to teach a class on when to stand around and do nothing...

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I think it's fair to say that nobody even comes close.
    And it's unrealistic for anyone to think they can come close to the staffing levels of FDNY. But just because you can't roll the same number of apparatus and members to a fire as FDNY, doesn't mean that you just show up and watch the house burn down.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If the resources are not there to safely support interior ops, I will not put my members at risk.
    Then tell the community. Tell them that their houses will burn down and their families will die, because you're too much of a coward to attempt any sort of operations that would be considered remotely dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    No .. tactics are not tactics. Tactics are shaped by training, experience and resources. the tactics of the FDNY where they have 30 folks and 8 companies on the first alarm will not work in a department that has 5 or 6 members responding on the first alarm. the tactics a department uses are very often manpower based.
    ..... Fire in NY..... Pull hose, spray water, fire goes out...
    Fire in Ruralville USA.... Pull hose... Spray water.... Fire goes out....

    You're right, tactics aren't tactics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Depends on how you define dedication and commitment.
    Your name and department have never gone in the same sentence with dedication and commitment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Then why do you keep fighting it and keep trying to press your expectations of a fire department on those communities?
    Because I don't believe for one second that you've held a public hearing and as a department told your community that their house is going to burn down.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    We do it everytime the pager goes off.... Whether we have one engine with 4 guys, or we empty the station. How do we do it? We don't make excuses as to why we can't do it....



    Why am I not surprised that you will so willingly accept rejection and failure?



    You've gone beyond being a disgrace to the fire service, you're a disgrace to mankind. God forbid you do anything remotely dangerous to help your fellow man. You're a coward, Bobby. Simple as that. A big fat coward.



    Then they should hold a meeting at the town hall and tell the citizens, who expect the FD to show up and save their family members, possessions, and property, that you can't do anything except lob water from the outside and hope for the best, or that you're just going to back off and "let nature take it's course."



    Don't lie anymore, that's EXACTLY the way you like it. You just want to show up in the truck with your gear and appear superior to the lowly citizens. You don't give two schitts if you save the house or burn it down, as long as you continue to think you're better than the citizens you signed up to help.



    More excuses to not do what you signed up for. God forbid you put some effort into anything other than excuses.



    That's every department, officer, IC, firefighter, etc priority. However that doesn't mean we stand around with our thumbs in our azzes because the fire is hot and it's dark in there. We go to work, doing what we were trained to do, to try and make the loss not so substantial, or to try and save the life of another human being. Keep hiding behind your safety vest, like you're the only one who cares if everyone goes home. That's all you seem to be good at anyway.



    Yeah, same with the members at both of my departments. Yet we still make aggressive attacks, save property, and go home at the end of the day....



    Unless it involves a physical. Then you'll say it's unneccessary and let the 400lb driver keel over from a heart attack...



    More excuses. If you'd put the fire out, instead of worrying about filling your vests, the majority of the danger would go away.



    So, if it's "taught" by you, that means that rescues should never be attempted... I didn't know you needed to teach a class on when to stand around and do nothing...



    And it's unrealistic for anyone to think they can come close to the staffing levels of FDNY. But just because you can't roll the same number of apparatus and members to a fire as FDNY, doesn't mean that you just show up and watch the house burn down.



    Then tell the community. Tell them that their houses will burn down and their families will die, because you're too much of a coward to attempt any sort of operations that would be considered remotely dangerous.



    ..... Fire in NY..... Pull hose, spray water, fire goes out...
    Fire in Ruralville USA.... Pull hose... Spray water.... Fire goes out....

    You're right, tactics aren't tactics...



    Your name and department have never gone in the same sentence with dedication and commitment.



    Because I don't believe for one second that you've held a public hearing and as a department told your community that their house is going to burn down.
    I applaud your patience in being willing to respond his nonsense. At least he's consistent.....pathetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Apparently you read some of the periodicals. What are your criteria? What is the big deal? I have probably been given information that is wrong and it will take me some time to separate the junk from the treasure. I think the key is to be smart enough to ask questions and not be too arrogant to listen.
    Yep, I pretty much read everything I can get my hands on by the Lt. I also read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on by Paul Gleason, although I would not expect many here to know too much about him. I read pretty much what ever I can get my hands on, decide what makes sense to me and what does not. But the key is to keep reading and listening. (silly face added for......?)

    If I only listened to firefighters that I knew, crap, I only know a few.
    Great. Glad you read a lot. Not attacking you at all, just a curious question came up. I read a lot too.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So are you backing excuses for not planning ahead to handle those fireground concerns?
    Am I making excuses for not planning ahead? No.

    Am I saying that there is a difference in tactics when you expect to be the only engine on scene? Am I saying there is a difference in tactics when you know you have multiple other engines and trucks on scene?


    Yes. I am saying that. And anyone who would say differently is an idiot.

    So, is there a difference in 3/4 guys in conrad's tactics than there are in FDNY tactics? There better be. His department/manpower/resources are very different. So I see a much bigger difference in how/what conrad does compared to FDNY. Much more than "one more guy on the line".

    Does it mean conrad's department can't/won't do the job? Not at all. They will just do it a bit differently. And that's fine.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Am I making excuses for not planning ahead? No.

    Am I saying that there is a difference in tactics when you expect to be the only engine on scene? Am I saying there is a difference in tactics when you know you have multiple other engines and trucks on scene?


    Yes. I am saying that. And anyone who would say differently is an idiot.

    Duh?

    So, is there a difference in 3/4 guys in conrad's tactics than there are in FDNY tactics? There better be. His department/manpower/resources are very different. So I see a much bigger difference in how/what conrad does compared to FDNY. Much more than "one more guy on the line".

    Duh, again. The point I was making is it appears some are advocating they can't do much or anything at all because they don't have the resources of the FDNY. If they are waiting for that most places in the US would not have any fire department at all.

    Does it mean conrad's department can't/won't do the job? Not at all. They will just do it a bit differently. And that's fine.

    EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS MAKING. Frankly, the woe is me'ers, the we can't do anything because we don't have what someone else has, or we can't do anything because we don't have all shiny and new trucks and equipment make me want to puke. That is not the fire service I know. We do the best we can with what we have and that means going inside to fight fire and save lives when conditions allow. Not appointing an excuse officer to give reasons and explanations for inaction.
    I wish a "Can do" attitude was more viable to some than a "We can't do" was.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-18-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I wish a "Can do" attitude was more viable to some than a "We can't do" was.
    To paraphrase Shakespeare:

    "Some people are born pitiful, some people achieve being pitiful, others have pitifulness (sic) thrust upon them."

    With LAFE it's a case of all three.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually, no it wasn't specifically to LA, it was to a few of you who talk on and on about having to have x-number of people before you can do anything.
    Find where I ever posted that a department must have "X" people on scene before they take action.

    It's ludicrious to think that would be effective. The department should have SOP's/SOG's, training, mentoring, education, and plans as to how to effectively do their job (especially the first-arriving engine and/or truck) while anticipating the arrival of the next apparatus.

    Right or safe? If you want right or safe go find another career or organization to volunteer to. Frankly, it is rarely right when it comes to staffing, and this job will NEVER, EVER, NEVER, be entirely safe until the day arrives that we don't resond at all. Because the second we jump on the BRT and head out the door running red lights and siren until the second we back back in, shut down the engine and close the bay doors we are not 100% safe.
    I didn't really think that I needed to specificially spell out that I was using "safe" as a relative term. Yes, I once read on a pamphlet attached to my PPE that firefighting is an inherently dangerous job, so I get that. You have to agree with me, however, that there are certainly different levels of "safe" and there must also be a calculated risk associated with the actions we execute.

    I just wonder how many FDs wait on scene until the entire first alarm assignment is on location before they attempt any interior fireground ops. Because I have never been on an FD that operates that way and I have never seen one that operates that way.
    Nor have I, and hope that I never see one either.

    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Come on. You think I am comparing depts.? That is unbelievable!
    Whoa brother, wasn't calling you or anyone else out specifically. I was simply addressing the "staffing" and "comparison" discussion that was being discussed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Find where I ever posted that a department must have "X" people on scene before they take action.

    Maybe not you specifically, but others certainly have.

    It's ludicrious to think that would be effective. The department should have SOP's/SOG's, training, mentoring, education, and plans as to how to effectively do their job (especially the first-arriving engine and/or truck) while anticipating the arrival of the next apparatus.

    And the department Chenzo is on HAS SOG's and a standing order to call mutual aid if there isn't sufficient staffing on hand as the first rig rolls out the door. So he knew he had additional resources en route. I know Chenzo well enough to know that if thought there was no safe chance to get the fire that he wouldn't have entered.

    I didn't really think that I needed to specificially spell out that I was using "safe" as a relative term. Yes, I once read on a pamphlet attached to my PPE that firefighting is an inherently dangerous job, so I get that. You have to agree with me, however, that there are certainly different levels of "safe" and there must also be a calculated risk associated with the actions we execute.

    Then we agree, I have NEVER advocated suicidal Banzai! Charges into structures on fire. We must be aggressive to savelives and property, but only when circumstances allow us to be.

    Nor have I, and hope that I never see one either.

    Yet Chenzo was chastized by a few people here for being overly aggressive and not waiting for help before entering. His decision clearly met 2 in 2 out and he did what his training and experience told him he could and it saved the house.
    I am glad I am closer to the end of my fire service career than the beginning because it seems the uber safety gurus will destroy what the fire service is and that will be a sad day for all of us.
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    post deleted by Conrad 427 AKA FIREFIGHTER ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-18-2013 at 10:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post



    Whoa brother, wasn't calling you or anyone else out specifically. I was simply addressing the "staffing" and "comparison" discussion that was being discussed.
    I actually never compared staffing at all. I was simply wondering what was so different about a single hose team advancing a line in a big city and a single hose team advancing a line in a tiny town. I keep hearing how silly I am to ask such a question and how many more resources a big town has. How do the big guys get all 100 firefighters on the end of one line? Does the fact that a big city has 50 battalion chiefs really matter to the three or four guys advancing a single hose? That's all I asked. If you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, which in my mind is to advance a line to the seat of a fire, how different are we really?

    Is this something a volunteer in a small town cant do?
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-18-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Great. Glad you read a lot. Not attacking you at all, just a curious question came up. I read a lot too.
    I had a hard time explaining myself properly and still don't know how to do it. I am not sure why I read what I do. I guess some of it "speaks to me" and some does not. I had an old fart tell me to never stop reading.
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    The day you quit trying to better yourself and be the best firefighter you can be is the day you need to turn your gear. This goes for the chief down to the newest zit faced kid you have.

    We have several new kids that have never been in a working fire, but guess what they have been trained, they drill and practice on a regular basis, and are excitied about getting their first fire. They have no expereince but if tones drop in the next five mintues they are going to be able to say in the morning they have some experience.

    Saying they don't have any experience and never letting them gain experience because of leadership having no desire to better themselves is just plain sad. Anyone in a leadership/training roll should always be looking for way to make their people the very best that they can be.

    Accepting just good enough will make for a poor department. Finding excuses to not better the people in your department because you have no pride in what you do should be criminal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Accepting just good enough will make for a poor department. Finding excuses to not better the people in your department because you have no pride in what you do should be criminal.
    You just described LAFE and his FD. They are prime examples of striving for mediocrity......and still fail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I actually never compared staffing at all. I was simply wondering what was so different about a single hose team advancing a line in a big city and a single hose team advancing a line in a tiny town. I keep hearing how silly I am to ask such a question and how many more resources a big town has. How do the big guys get all 100 firefighters on the end of one line? Does the fact that a big city has 50 battalion chiefs really matter to the three or four guys advancing a single hose? That's all I asked. If you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, which in my mind is to advance a line to the seat of a fire, how different are we really?

    Is this something a volunteer in a small town cant do?
    The issue is that lowest common denominator as you call it, does not work in a vacuum.

    They need manpower for ventilation support. They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas. They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.

    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    The day you quit trying to better yourself and be the best firefighter you can be is the day you need to turn your gear. This goes for the chief down to the newest zit faced kid you have.

    Agreed, which is why I have attended more outside training this year, most of it on the weekends on my own time, than any other member of my VFD.

    There have been several other members that have also made that effort, but there have also been several that have not. You can't force members to take outside training.


    We have several new kids that have never been in a working fire, but guess what they have been trained, they drill and practice on a regular basis, and are excitied about getting their first fire. They have no expereince but if tones drop in the next five mintues they are going to be able to say in the morning they have some experience.

    And my guys at my VFD want to go interior at every opportunity as well, except it is our job as officers to determine when the situation is right to allow that to happen. Without enough experienced members to go interior with them, until they gain that experience, you are potentially setting the new guys upon for failure, or even worse.

    At this time we, at my VFD, have a significant problem putting enough officers on scene to both remain exterior and run the fire and supervise the inexperienced folks interior. Sometimes choices have to be made in the interest of firefighter safety.


    Saying they don't have any experience and never letting them gain experience because of leadership having no desire to better themselves is just plain sad. Anyone in a leadership/training roll should always be looking for way to make their people the very best that they can be.

    Experience needs to be gained in manageable situations under supervision. See above.

    We want them to gain experience which is why we have committed more of our budget to training, and are we doing much more live fire training, both locally and regionally, than we have in the past.

    The more basic issue is simply a lack of fires to gain experience, and there is nothing that we can do about that.


    Accepting just good enough will make for a poor department. Finding excuses to not better the people in your department because you have no pride in what you do should be criminal.
    Never did we say that we are accepting good enough, but we do understand that our members have a lot of things, including some pretty hefty workplace demands (70-80 hours per week is not uncommon for several of our members) that limit the amount of time they can spend on fire department activities.

    We have increased training requirements. We have budgeted increased money for outside training. We are purchasing 2 new trucks this year as well as updated SCBA. I have improved public education programming. So nowhere are we just sitting around.

    As far as the community interest in becoming firefighters and our very limited manpower, that is the reality, and as much as we don't like it, until we can create bodies or recruit more members, it's where we stand. And it's the reality in EVERY VFD in our parish as well as neighboring parishes as there is in LA, or at least this part of LA, very little interest in the community regarding volunteer firefighting. Because of that we are now using AMA to give us that additional manpower. The reality is that the situation is likely not to change, at least in the short term, and as a department we have no choice, for the sake of firefighter safety, to accept the fact that we have to be much less aggressive, operate interior less and potentially have to sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives to keep our members safe and uninjured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as the community interest in becoming firefighters and our very limited manpower, that is the reality, and as much as we don't like it, until we can create bodies or recruit more members, it's where we stand. And it's the reality in EVERY VFD in our parish as well as neighboring parishes as there is in LA, or at least this part of LA, very little interest in the community regarding volunteer firefighting. Because of that we are now using AMA to give us that additional manpower. The reality is that the situation is likely not to change, at least in the short term, and as a department we have no choice, for the sake of firefighter safety, to accept the fact that we have to be much less aggressive, operate interior less and potentially have to sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives to keep our members safe and uninjured.
    Good to know that your pathetic mindset extends to other groups and not just you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Good to know that your pathetic mindset extends to other groups and not just you.
    Yup, pathetic.

    Working within operational policies based on firefighter safety and the reality that we will have limited manpower at the majority of our incidents.
    Most people would call that identifying your limitations and identifying priorities based on those limitations.

    Nice to know that your attitude extends from post to post.

    I'm just curious what your brilliant solution would be.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-19-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm just curious what your brilliant solution would be.
    Getting rid of folks like you would be a good start.

    Recruiting people interested in being firefighters would be second.

    If there are not enough people, I would would hold town hall meetings and tell the citizens the obligations of being able to provide adequate fire protection are too onerous for our fellow neighbors and ask community input on how to deal with the issue.

    There has to be other options other than what you are giving them.

    Thanks for asking.
    FyredUp and Chenzo like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The reality is that the situation is likely not to change, at least in the short term, and as a department we have no choice, for the sake of firefighter safety, to accept the fact that we have to be much less aggressive, operate interior less and potentially have to sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives to keep our members safe and uninjured. [/COLOR]
    Sacrificing civilian lives to keep your precious members safe and uninjured????!!!!

    What is God's name is wrong with you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    They need manpower for ventilation support.
    For a room and contents fire I need ventilation support? How did we ever put the fire out in that house the other week without ventilation support? How did we save the house and possessions without ventilation support? How can they possibly be remodeling, and not tearing down, a house we put out a fire in where we didn't have ventilation support?
    They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas.
    We hit water supply, fire attack, exterior ops, pump/safety, and command with 4 guys.... I won't argue that you need additional help with rural water supply and drop tanks, but one more guy driving the tanker out is more than enough to adapt and overcome. Instead of the one guy I had pulling a supply line, he would assist in setting up the drop tank with the tanker driver, and get the hard suction set up.... Nice try though.
    They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.
    Two of us moved the line just fine, from the truck, to the door, to the inside. I did a search just fine with me and the other guy on the line. And we had command covered. So what's your excuse this time?
    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Yeah, eventually. But initially I can make do with 4 or 5 guys on scene until more people show up.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Agreed, which is why I have attended more outside training this year, most of it on the weekends on my own time, than any other member of my VFD.
    Which doesn't mean anything if you don't use it, which you've proven you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Without enough experienced members to go interior with them, until they gain that experience, you are potentially setting the new guys upon for failure, or even worse.
    If you never let them go interior unless the conditions are perfect, they're never going to gain experience, and you're going to be in the same ugly vicious circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Never did we say that we are accepting good enough
    You don't have to say it, you've proven it repeatedly with your posts here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    for the sake of firefighter safety,
    Unless it involves a physical that might unearth an underlying cardiac condition that could save your members life. Then it's not about firefighter safety, it's about $$$$

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives
    There's a difference between losing a civilian life because you tried everything, did everything, and it just didn't happen, and writing off screaming grandma because you're too afraid someone might break a nail. I guess you're just a different breed of human, because I couldn't even begin to tell you what I would do to save another humans life.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I'm just curious what your brilliant solution would be.
    It certainly wouldn't be writing off civilians because your god damn ICS vests aren't full. Because the conditions aren't jussssst right. Because you have such an inflated ego that you can't even do what you signed up to do, save lives and protect property.

    You talk a big game about writing civilians off. Have you done it? Have you made a decision to not enact a resuce because of limitations? Did that person die? My guess is the answer to all of that is a big fat no, and when it came to the day that you did write off a civilian for some bullschitt reason, that you wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I'm fully aware you have no conscience and sub-par ethics, but I sincerely have a hard time believing that you will sleep like a baby knowing your decision to do nothing killed a civilian who called you for help.
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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The issue is that lowest common denominator as you call it, does not work in a vacuum.

    They need manpower for ventilation support. They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas. They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.

    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Now your just being silly, and more than just a little obtuse.

    I think part of the job is keeping a flexible mind and it seems like yours has calcified.
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-19-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Now your just being silly, and more than just a little obtuse.

    I think part of the job is keeping a flexible mind and it seems like yours has calcified.
    So performing ventilation operations is silly? Having a backup line in place is silly? Having rapid intervention capabilities in place is silly? Having a water supply being established is silly? Having a functioning command structure in place is silly?

    Really?

    The fact is firefighting is more than pushing the line. Sure, not all fires will require ventilation as maybe it's self-ventilated on arrival. Water supply may be as simple as the first 2 engines in. And maybe RIT isn't even required.

    But in many fires, those will be needed elements.

    Fireground operations is FAR more than that handline.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Yeah, eventually. But initially I can make do with 4 or 5 guys on scene until more people show up.

    Sure you can. And most of the time it will work out OK. But what happens when it doesn't?

    Which doesn't mean anything if you don't use it, which you've proven you don't.

    Really?

    Both of my Chief's would disagree.



    If you never let them go interior unless the conditions are perfect, they're never going to gain experience, and you're going to be in the same ugly vicious circle.

    Agreed. But I refuse to let them in if supervision isn't available without compromising the exterior command position.

    When the fire is manageable and I have the ability to provide them an experienced supervisor without comprising an exterior IC, I'll make entry. Without both of those elements being met, I won't. It's really that simple.



    Unless it involves a physical that might unearth an underlying cardiac condition that could save your members life. Then it's not about firefighter safety, it's about $$$$

    Again, talk to my Chiefs. In fact talk to the vast majority of the volunteer and combo Chiefs in this state as physicals for volunteers statewide are very rare.

    While you are at it, tell me how a department running on 20K per year will pay for them. And yes, it is about money, and what will have to be compromised in the budget to pay for them.



    There's a difference between losing a civilian life because you tried everything, did everything, and it just didn't happen, and writing off screaming grandma because you're too afraid someone might break a nail. I guess you're just a different breed of human, because I couldn't even begin to tell you what I would do to save another humans life.

    I'm not talking about breaking a nail but I am talking about injuries that will keep a member from their full-time job and keep them from being able to pay their household bills.

    Maybe that's not important to you. maybe putting out that fire should be more important, but to me, it's not, and never will be. Taking care of their families is a member's primary responsibility, not volunteer firefighting. And because of that, it's my primary responsibility.



    It certainly wouldn't be writing off civilians because your god damn ICS vests aren't full. Because the conditions aren't jussssst right. Because you have such an inflated ego that you can't even do what you signed up to do, save lives and protect property.

    You call having an exterior IC "filling vests". I call it having a functional IC who is able to evaluate conditions from the exterior, interface face to face with incoming units and other agencies and effectively communicate with dispatch. To me, that is a functional IC.

    As far as saving lives and property, when I have adequate resources, experienced members and a scene that is safe, I do. When I don't have the above, we come first.


    You talk a big game about writing civilians off. Have you done it?

    Yes, I have.

    Have you made a decision to not enact a resuce because of limitations?

    Yes, many years ago, but yes, I have.

    Did that person die?

    Yes, she did.

    My guess is the answer to all of that is a big fat no, and when it came to the day that you did write off a civilian for some bullschitt reason, that you wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

    Guess you were wrong.

    And did I sleep at night? Yes. I had no other choice. Committing the members would have put them at significant risk, and it just wasn't worth it.


    I'm fully aware you have no conscience and sub-par ethics, but I sincerely have a hard time believing that you will sleep like a baby knowing your decision to do nothing killed a civilian who called you for help.
    My members are the priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So performing ventilation operations is silly? Having a backup line in place is silly? Having rapid intervention capabilities in place is silly? Having a water supply being established is silly? Having a functioning command structure in place is silly?

    Wanting to have every single one of them established and in place before you so much as lift a finger is silly, yes. Waiting for every single one of your ducks to be in a row before you start fireground operations is silly, yes. Focusing on filling command vests before you can function is silly, yes.

    Really?

    I ask myself the same question everytime you post.

    The fact is firefighting is more than pushing the line.

    Sure. But if your plan is to save property, possessions, and life, does it not get reduced to that one simple task? Pushing the line and putting the fire out?

    Sure, not all fires will require ventilation as maybe it's self-ventilated on arrival. Water supply may be as simple as the first 2 engines in. And maybe RIT isn't even required.

    But in many fires, those will be needed elements.

    Correct, but that doesn't mean you stand around and do nothing until all those needed elements are in place.

    Fireground operations is FAR more than that handline.

    In the grand scheme of things sure. There are many, many elements to successful fireground operations. However, what is venting without an attack handline? What exactly are you backing up with your backup line without an attack line? Who exactly is your RIT going to save if you don't have anyone on an attack handline? What exactly is your water supply going to do if you don't have water flowing through an attack line? Who exactly is the command structure going to command if you don't have a crew on an attack line?
    Venting, water supply, backup lines, RIT, command, etc, mean nothing if you don't actually make an attempt to stop the fire....
    scfire86 and conrad427 like this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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