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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

  1. #121
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    They need manpower for ventilation support.
    For a room and contents fire I need ventilation support? How did we ever put the fire out in that house the other week without ventilation support? How did we save the house and possessions without ventilation support? How can they possibly be remodeling, and not tearing down, a house we put out a fire in where we didn't have ventilation support?
    They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas.
    We hit water supply, fire attack, exterior ops, pump/safety, and command with 4 guys.... I won't argue that you need additional help with rural water supply and drop tanks, but one more guy driving the tanker out is more than enough to adapt and overcome. Instead of the one guy I had pulling a supply line, he would assist in setting up the drop tank with the tanker driver, and get the hard suction set up.... Nice try though.
    They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.
    Two of us moved the line just fine, from the truck, to the door, to the inside. I did a search just fine with me and the other guy on the line. And we had command covered. So what's your excuse this time?
    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Yeah, eventually. But initially I can make do with 4 or 5 guys on scene until more people show up.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Agreed, which is why I have attended more outside training this year, most of it on the weekends on my own time, than any other member of my VFD.
    Which doesn't mean anything if you don't use it, which you've proven you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Without enough experienced members to go interior with them, until they gain that experience, you are potentially setting the new guys upon for failure, or even worse.
    If you never let them go interior unless the conditions are perfect, they're never going to gain experience, and you're going to be in the same ugly vicious circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Never did we say that we are accepting good enough
    You don't have to say it, you've proven it repeatedly with your posts here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    for the sake of firefighter safety,
    Unless it involves a physical that might unearth an underlying cardiac condition that could save your members life. Then it's not about firefighter safety, it's about $$$$

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives
    There's a difference between losing a civilian life because you tried everything, did everything, and it just didn't happen, and writing off screaming grandma because you're too afraid someone might break a nail. I guess you're just a different breed of human, because I couldn't even begin to tell you what I would do to save another humans life.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I'm just curious what your brilliant solution would be.
    It certainly wouldn't be writing off civilians because your god damn ICS vests aren't full. Because the conditions aren't jussssst right. Because you have such an inflated ego that you can't even do what you signed up to do, save lives and protect property.

    You talk a big game about writing civilians off. Have you done it? Have you made a decision to not enact a resuce because of limitations? Did that person die? My guess is the answer to all of that is a big fat no, and when it came to the day that you did write off a civilian for some bullschitt reason, that you wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I'm fully aware you have no conscience and sub-par ethics, but I sincerely have a hard time believing that you will sleep like a baby knowing your decision to do nothing killed a civilian who called you for help.
    conrad427 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse


  2. #122
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The issue is that lowest common denominator as you call it, does not work in a vacuum.

    They need manpower for ventilation support. They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas. They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.

    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Now your just being silly, and more than just a little obtuse.

    I think part of the job is keeping a flexible mind and it seems like yours has calcified.
    Last edited by conrad427; 06-19-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Now your just being silly, and more than just a little obtuse.

    I think part of the job is keeping a flexible mind and it seems like yours has calcified.
    So performing ventilation operations is silly? Having a backup line in place is silly? Having rapid intervention capabilities in place is silly? Having a water supply being established is silly? Having a functioning command structure in place is silly?

    Really?

    The fact is firefighting is more than pushing the line. Sure, not all fires will require ventilation as maybe it's self-ventilated on arrival. Water supply may be as simple as the first 2 engines in. And maybe RIT isn't even required.

    But in many fires, those will be needed elements.

    Fireground operations is FAR more than that handline.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Yeah, eventually. But initially I can make do with 4 or 5 guys on scene until more people show up.

    Sure you can. And most of the time it will work out OK. But what happens when it doesn't?

    Which doesn't mean anything if you don't use it, which you've proven you don't.

    Really?

    Both of my Chief's would disagree.



    If you never let them go interior unless the conditions are perfect, they're never going to gain experience, and you're going to be in the same ugly vicious circle.

    Agreed. But I refuse to let them in if supervision isn't available without compromising the exterior command position.

    When the fire is manageable and I have the ability to provide them an experienced supervisor without comprising an exterior IC, I'll make entry. Without both of those elements being met, I won't. It's really that simple.



    Unless it involves a physical that might unearth an underlying cardiac condition that could save your members life. Then it's not about firefighter safety, it's about $$$$

    Again, talk to my Chiefs. In fact talk to the vast majority of the volunteer and combo Chiefs in this state as physicals for volunteers statewide are very rare.

    While you are at it, tell me how a department running on 20K per year will pay for them. And yes, it is about money, and what will have to be compromised in the budget to pay for them.



    There's a difference between losing a civilian life because you tried everything, did everything, and it just didn't happen, and writing off screaming grandma because you're too afraid someone might break a nail. I guess you're just a different breed of human, because I couldn't even begin to tell you what I would do to save another humans life.

    I'm not talking about breaking a nail but I am talking about injuries that will keep a member from their full-time job and keep them from being able to pay their household bills.

    Maybe that's not important to you. maybe putting out that fire should be more important, but to me, it's not, and never will be. Taking care of their families is a member's primary responsibility, not volunteer firefighting. And because of that, it's my primary responsibility.



    It certainly wouldn't be writing off civilians because your god damn ICS vests aren't full. Because the conditions aren't jussssst right. Because you have such an inflated ego that you can't even do what you signed up to do, save lives and protect property.

    You call having an exterior IC "filling vests". I call it having a functional IC who is able to evaluate conditions from the exterior, interface face to face with incoming units and other agencies and effectively communicate with dispatch. To me, that is a functional IC.

    As far as saving lives and property, when I have adequate resources, experienced members and a scene that is safe, I do. When I don't have the above, we come first.


    You talk a big game about writing civilians off. Have you done it?

    Yes, I have.

    Have you made a decision to not enact a resuce because of limitations?

    Yes, many years ago, but yes, I have.

    Did that person die?

    Yes, she did.

    My guess is the answer to all of that is a big fat no, and when it came to the day that you did write off a civilian for some bullschitt reason, that you wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

    Guess you were wrong.

    And did I sleep at night? Yes. I had no other choice. Committing the members would have put them at significant risk, and it just wasn't worth it.


    I'm fully aware you have no conscience and sub-par ethics, but I sincerely have a hard time believing that you will sleep like a baby knowing your decision to do nothing killed a civilian who called you for help.
    My members are the priority.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #125
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So performing ventilation operations is silly? Having a backup line in place is silly? Having rapid intervention capabilities in place is silly? Having a water supply being established is silly? Having a functioning command structure in place is silly?

    Wanting to have every single one of them established and in place before you so much as lift a finger is silly, yes. Waiting for every single one of your ducks to be in a row before you start fireground operations is silly, yes. Focusing on filling command vests before you can function is silly, yes.

    Really?

    I ask myself the same question everytime you post.

    The fact is firefighting is more than pushing the line.

    Sure. But if your plan is to save property, possessions, and life, does it not get reduced to that one simple task? Pushing the line and putting the fire out?

    Sure, not all fires will require ventilation as maybe it's self-ventilated on arrival. Water supply may be as simple as the first 2 engines in. And maybe RIT isn't even required.

    But in many fires, those will be needed elements.

    Correct, but that doesn't mean you stand around and do nothing until all those needed elements are in place.

    Fireground operations is FAR more than that handline.

    In the grand scheme of things sure. There are many, many elements to successful fireground operations. However, what is venting without an attack handline? What exactly are you backing up with your backup line without an attack line? Who exactly is your RIT going to save if you don't have anyone on an attack handline? What exactly is your water supply going to do if you don't have water flowing through an attack line? Who exactly is the command structure going to command if you don't have a crew on an attack line?
    Venting, water supply, backup lines, RIT, command, etc, mean nothing if you don't actually make an attempt to stop the fire....
    scfire86 and conrad427 like this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  6. #126
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Sure you can. And most of the time it will work out OK. But what happens when it doesn't?
    By the time something would go wrong, there would be more personnel on scene. That's what you're missing. No one, not even myself, is advocating suicide. But I'm not gonna sit around and wait for everyone to show up before we go to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Really?
    Both of my Chief's would disagree.
    That's nice. Tell me, how have you put all of this training you've taken this year into use? How has it bettered you as a "firefighter" and helped your departments out?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Agreed. But I refuse to let them in if supervision isn't available without compromising the exterior command position.
    For someone who claims to understand the felxibility of ICS, you sure aren't willing to use that flexibility to your advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    When the fire is manageable and I have the ability to provide them an experienced supervisor without comprising an exterior IC, I'll make entry. Without both of those elements being met, I won't. It's really that simple.
    Sooooooo..... They'll never get experience then. Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Again, talk to my Chiefs. In fact talk to the vast majority of the volunteer and combo Chiefs in this state as physicals for volunteers statewide are very rare.
    No, I think I'll talk to you. YOU preach safety, YOU preach that your members are the priorty, period. So why aren't YOU advocating for physicals? Cardiac issues can be the silent killer. For the guy who preaches safety like there's no tomorrow. why haven't YOU made an issue of it? Is it because you won't pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    While you are at it, tell me how a department running on 20K per year will pay for them. And yes, it is about money, and what will have to be compromised in the budget to pay for them.
    I would assume you're not talking about your department, as you've stated repeatedly that your budget is 3x more than mine at Dept 1. How will you pay for it? The same way the rest of us accomplish anything else, find a way, and don't make excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I'm not talking about breaking a nail but I am talking about injuries that will keep a member from their full-time job and keep them from being able to pay their household bills.
    http://sfm.dps.louisiana.gov/fi-fd_f...-insurance.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Maybe that's not important to you. maybe putting out that fire should be more important, but to me, it's not, and never will be. Taking care of their families is a member's primary responsibility, not volunteer firefighting. And because of that, it's my primary responsibility.
    Everyone on my department knows that firefighting is inherently dangerous. Everyone knows we take risks. And everyone knows that those risks may have consequences. Guess what, we still take those risks. My members feel safe, falling back on their training, and the understanding that I wouldn't ask them to do anything I deemed excessively dangerous or suicidal, or that I wouldn't do myself. You like to make it seem like you're the only person who wants to send everyone home. We ALL want everyone to go home unscathed. But that doesn't mean we don't act. That's what we signed up to do. That's what the public expects when they call for help. They expect someone to show up and HELP.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    You call having an exterior IC "filling vests". I call it having a functional IC who is able to evaluate conditions from the exterior, interface face to face with incoming units and other agencies and effectively communicate with dispatch. To me, that is a functional IC.
    In your case, it's absolutely filling vests. Conditions can be evaluated by other members performing exterior functions, and relayed interior just as easily as if it were command. If you have to meet face to face with your MA departments on every call, you need to do more training with your MA departments. My MPO can communicate with dispatch just as easily as an exterior command member. If command is going to serve a better function by going interior with the handline, then guess what, that's what's going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    As far as saving lives and property, when I have adequate resources, experienced members and a scene that is safe, I do. When I don't have the above, we come first.
    So, you're never going to act, you're never going to save a life, or property. Got it. Your magical "safe" fire scene doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Yes, I have.
    Yes, many years ago, but yes, I have.
    Yes, she did.
    Guess you were wrong.
    And did I sleep at night? Yes. I had no other choice. Committing the members would have put them at significant risk, and it just wasn't worth it.
    You are one cold hearted motherf*cker.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    My members are the priority.
    Yeah, you've made the clear.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  7. #127
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So performing ventilation operations is silly? Having a backup line in place is silly? Having rapid intervention capabilities in place is silly? Having a water supply being established is silly? Having a functioning command structure in place is silly?

    Really?

    The fact is firefighting is more than pushing the line. Sure, not all fires will require ventilation as maybe it's self-ventilated on arrival. Water supply may be as simple as the first 2 engines in. And maybe RIT isn't even required.

    But in many fires, those will be needed elements.

    Fireground operations is FAR more than that handline.
    Yes, the way that you claim to operate and the excuses you manufacture in order to not have to do anything and the resources you don't have that you consider to be mandatory for a room and contents fire and letting gramma burn up because you don't have the vests filled. The fact that your safety stance is making your firefighters and citizens less safe is yes, frankly silly. Why don't you just put out the fire? You will save money preventing wear and tear on all of those vests.
    BoxAlarm187 likes this.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They need manpower for ventilation support. They need manpower for water supply support, especially in rural areas. They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.

    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.
    Yes, but making a good push with those guys on the handline puts the fire out. It's generally accepted notion in the modern fire service that when the fire goes out, the problem goes away.

    No one is advocating here that we run in a 100% involved occupancy with a 1.5" expecting to do the impossible, but there are times that we enter IDLH environments so we can do the right thing - protect lives and save property. Many times, you'll have to do this without every single member in place or function filled. Every day in the United States, career and volunteer fire departments in rural, suburban, and urban areas perform this way - and the firefighters go home safe, property is salvaged, and most importantly, we assist civilians that might not otherwise have been able to assist themselves.

    Having an outside IC isn't necessary for the initial stages of the call. An IC with good situational awareness should be able to use his knowledge, skills, and abilities to survey the scene, assist with fire suppression, and yes, even provide the IC function from inside the occupancy until he's either relieved of command or gives it to a later-arriving officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...as a department we have no choice, for the sake of firefighter safety, to accept the fact that we have to be much less aggressive, operate interior less and potentially have to sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives to keep our members safe and uninjured.
    Just when I've thought that I read it all. Have you brainwashed the members of your departments into thinking that ANY injury is unacceptable? Or do they realize that injuries are an inevitable part of the fire service and generally dismiss your attitude that writing off property and lives is acceptable?

    I am embarrassed and uncomfortable that you're associated with the US fire service.
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  9. #129
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    LAFE, what's your take on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Local News Story
    Dateline: Buggmest, LA

    A police sergeant in Buggmest, Louisiana is today justifying the death of a 37-year-old woman who was being held hostage by her estranged husband.

    Sergeant Bob Jones, who also oversees the department’s DARE program, was in charge of the event, which began in the 1200 block of Elm Street around 3:00pm yesterday.

    “Officers received a call from Ella Smith reporting that her ex-husband, Howard State, was at her home with a gun and he was threatening her life.”

    Jones, citing the likelihood that this was a false call, advised his officers via two-way radio that they were to respond non-emergency. “Sending my officers home safely is my paramount responsibility” Sergeant Jones stated.

    On their arrival, officers observed State holding Smith on the front porch of the home with a large kitchen knife to her throat. Negotiations started immediately, and after several hours, it was clear to officers and bystanders alike that State was growing tired and losing focus.

    Teresa Smeetz, who lives across the street from the scene, said that officers prepared to move in to secure the knife and take State under arrest. Their actions, however, were quickly stalled by Sergeant Jones. Despite pleas from officers and citizens alike, Jones would not listen to them, and refused to let them assist the woman. “The suspect clearly had a knife and presented a threat to our officers. I couldn’t let them get injured in an attempt to save the life of a stranger.”

    The uproar caused State to stir, and for reasons still unknown, he slit the throat of his ex-wife, causing her to die almost instantly.

    Jones stands by his decision: “My responsibility is to my officers and their families. There are times when I have to make difficult decisions, such as allowing people’s personal belongings to be stolen as we watch, or such as in yesterday’s event, the death of others.”

    The police chief hasn’t commented yet on this tragedy.
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    Originally Posted by LAFE
    My members are the priority.
    Ever notice that Bobby uses terms like "my members" and "my personnel", but it is always
    the "Chief's" rules, the "Chief's" policies and the "Chief's" decisions whenever he gets called out on something?

    He that is good at making excuses is seldom good for anything else...
    Benjamin Franklin
    Ben must have time traveled to Bossier Parish!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    By the time something would go wrong, there would be more personnel on scene. That's what you're missing. No one, not even myself, is advocating suicide. But I'm not gonna sit around and wait for everyone to show up before we go to work.

    Maybe that's the case where you are, but it's not the case in my VFD. Not uncommon, depending on the location for the AMA engine to be 10 minutes behind our initial responders. Next MA behind that with interior manpower is my combo department, which is easily a good 10-15 minutes behind our AMA engine, assuming we call for them when we're dispatched. If we call them on scene it's a good 15-25 minutes depending upon location.

    Big change from my previous VFD where I would get my entire AMA assignment within 2-10 minutes of our arrival.

    So no, for us, help is not close.

    As far as waiting for everybody, I never said that. But I will wait for a backup line who can also function as RIT. I owe that much to my members.



    That's nice. Tell me, how have you put all of this training you've taken this year into use? How has it bettered you as a "firefighter" and helped your departments out?

    Implemented some new policies at my VFD regarding engine company operations and developed 2 new training classes based on that program. Implemented the position of door controlman, which is a very new concept to this area. Implemented Transitional Attack from last year's FDIC.

    Just a few examples. Happy?



    For someone who claims to understand the felxibility of ICS, you sure aren't willing to use that flexibility to your advantage.

    Sure ICS is flexible, but that does not mean you have to use working command. Bottom line is that I want to be able to view the entire scene. That, as an IC, is my preference. And given the experience level of my people, I feel I need to be outside, not inside.

    Sooooooo..... They'll never get experience then. Gotcha.

    They will get the experience when we have the fires and the supervisory resources to get that experience.

    Unless we go out and set the fires, we have very little control over the number of fires that occur in the district. As I have stated, we generally roll to 1-2 working building fires per year, and if the fire is out of the core, there is a very good chance that it will be fully involved on arrival. Just about any mutual aid run will also be fully involved.

    Again, we are trying to increase the number of lives burns our members are able to attend. For us, that is how our members will gain the vast majority of their experience, not through actual responses.



    No, I think I'll talk to you. YOU preach safety, YOU preach that your members are the priorty, period. So why aren't YOU advocating for physicals? Cardiac issues can be the silent killer. For the guy who preaches safety like there's no tomorrow. why haven't YOU made an issue of it? Is it because you won't pass?

    I do. if a member does not attend training, which to me is a safety issue, I make an issue of it. if a member does not demonstrate the physical ability to perform the job, which is a safety issue, I make an issue of it.

    But I also understand the feelings of my Chief officers. My combo department's command staff does not support physicals. My VFD Chief supports physicals and in next year's proposed budget, he has budgeted money for them, but he is concerned about the affects on our limited manpower. The topic is still under discussion among the officers, but in the end, it will be his call, along with the board.


    I would assume you're not talking about your department, as you've stated repeatedly that your budget is 3x more than mine at Dept 1. How will you pay for it? The same way the rest of us accomplish anything else, find a way, and don't make excuses.

    No, I'm not. I am talking about the departments in rural areas that operate on donations, pancake breakfasts or chicken BBQs or on a pittance from bottom-barrel tax revenues.

    Could my VFD afford them? maybe. They are budgeted for next year but we had to cut in other areas that will affect operations if we decide to implement them.




    http://sfm.dps.louisiana.gov/fi-fd_f...-insurance.htm

    Short-term disability will not help the injuries that require a week or two off.


    Everyone on my department knows that firefighting is inherently dangerous.

    And the level of danger is dependent on decisions that we make.

    Everyone knows we take risks.

    And those risks should be based on training, experience, resources, manpower and command structure, not "what a fire department should do".


    And everyone knows that those risks may have consequences.

    And it's perfectly acceptable not to take those risks because either as a department or an incident commander, you are uncomfortable with those consequences, or you do not have the resources to deal with the consequences (such as trained RIT).

    Guess what, we still take those risks.

    If you don't have the resources, training, experience, manpower or command structure, or you don't have the resources available to deal with those consequences, and you still take those risks, you are rolling the dice with the health of your members.

    My members feel safe, falling back on their training, and the understanding that I wouldn't ask them to do anything I deemed excessively dangerous or suicidal, or that I wouldn't do myself. You like to make it seem like you're the only person who wants to send everyone home. We ALL want everyone to go home unscathed. But that doesn't mean we don't act. That's what we signed up to do. That's what the public expects when they call for help. They expect someone to show up and HELP.

    And that's great.

    I will do what I can with the resources that I have, which vary widely on my VFD from response to response. I will evaluate what I have, and do what I can without putting my members at risk of significant injury. that is my line in the sand, and I choose that I will not cross it, no matter the circumstances of the incident.

    If you choose to put the incident needs above your members, fine.

    The abilities, experience and training of my members drive my decisions at an incident, NOT the incident. I will provide the level of HELP at an incident that the training and experience of my members and resources allow, and that is all that I will do. I owe service to my citizens, but I owe more to my members.



    In your case, it's absolutely filling vests. Conditions can be evaluated by other members performing exterior functions, and relayed interior just as easily as if it were command. If you have to meet face to face with your MA departments on every call, you need to do more training with your MA departments. My MPO can communicate with dispatch just as easily as an exterior command member. If command is going to serve a better function by going interior with the handline, then guess what, that's what's going to happen.

    Disagree.

    The IC belongs exterior. That is what my Chief wants. That is how I prefer to operate. And in our situation, that is what works.

    Let's just agree to disagree as we could debate this point endlessly.



    So, you're never going to act, you're never going to save a life, or property. Got it. Your magical "safe" fire scene doesn't exist.

    I don't expect a "magical safe" scene, but I expect a minimum level of protection for my members.

    Functional exterior IC. Stable structure. Adequate staffing on the line. Backup line. And enough water for them to get out if needed.

    I don't really demand that much. But a single line and a couple of guys outside, and the next due engine 10 minutes out, doesn't cut it for me.



    You are one cold hearted motherf*cker.

    Maybe.

    But I can't change what I don't have the resources to change.

    Very heavy smoke condition with significant visible fire. Myself and 2 other members. 300 gallons of water. And the next due piece at least 10 minutes out.

    Not worth the risk. And nothing I could do to change that, or change the outcome.




    .
    You don't like the way I fight fire. Cool.

    I used to think like you, but I have changed my mind over the years. it just isn't worth the risk when you have minimum staffing.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Originally Posted by LAFE


    Ever notice that Bobby uses terms like "my members" and "my personnel", but it is always
    the "Chief's" rules, the "Chief's" policies and the "Chief's" decisions whenever he gets called out on something?

    When I am responsible for them either in a training, crew assignment or incident command capicity, yes, they are "my" members.

    And in the end, it is "the Chief's" department as he is responsible for the administrative decisions.



    Ben must have time traveled to Bossier Parish!
    Depends on what you define as excuses.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #133
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sure you can. And most of the time it will work out OK. But what happens when it doesn't?
    Sounds an awful lot like depending on interior and exterior members. What happens when your interior guys have someone go down inside and all you have left are exterior?

    Most of the time it works out fine; what happens when it doesn’t?


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    While you are at it, tell me how a department running on 20K per year will pay for them. And yes, it is about money, and what will have to be compromised in the budget to pay for them.
    Figure it out. That’s what all of the politicians that you love to emulate tell us to do with less budget. Figure it out. The solution is there but, again, it is far easier to just make excuses up and whine and complain. Real solutions take work and energy.



    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My members are the priority.
    Except for when they’re not.
    Chenzo and rm1524 like this.

  14. #134
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    LAFE, what's your take on this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Local News Story

    Dateline: Buggmest, LA

    A police sergeant in Buggmest, Louisiana is today justifying the death of a 37-year-old woman who was being held hostage by her estranged husband.

    Sergeant Bob Jones, who also oversees the department’s DARE program, was in charge of the event, which began in the 1200 block of Elm Street around 3:00pm yesterday.

    “Officers received a call from Ella Smith reporting that her ex-husband, Howard State, was at her home with a gun and he was threatening her life.”

    Jones, citing the likelihood that this was a false call, advised his officers via two-way radio that they were to respond non-emergency. “Sending my officers home safely is my paramount responsibility” Sergeant Jones stated.

    On their arrival, officers observed State holding Smith on the front porch of the home with a large kitchen knife to her throat. Negotiations started immediately, and after several hours, it was clear to officers and bystanders alike that State was growing tired and losing focus.

    Teresa Smeetz, who lives across the street from the scene, said that officers prepared to move in to secure the knife and take State under arrest. Their actions, however, were quickly stalled by Sergeant Jones. Despite pleas from officers and citizens alike, Jones would not listen to them, and refused to let them assist the woman. “The suspect clearly had a knife and presented a threat to our officers. I couldn’t let them get injured in an attempt to save the life of a stranger.”

    The uproar caused State to stir, and for reasons still unknown, he slit the throat of his ex-wife, causing her to die almost instantly.

    Jones stands by his decision: “My responsibility is to my officers and their families. There are times when I have to make difficult decisions, such as allowing people’s personal belongings to be stolen as we watch, or such as in yesterday’s event, the death of others.”

    The police chief hasn’t commented yet on this tragedy.

    Given that there is no such community, I suspect that this "news story" is a well laid trap.

    That being said, if a commander feels that the safety of his personnel are his priority, I have no issues with his actions.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #135
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Yes, its completely made up, which is why I used a name of a community that anyone could Google and verify it didn't exist. Good lord, man.

    Your response is laughable, yet sad.
    Chenzo likes this.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Maybe that's the case where you are, but it's not the case in my VFD. Not uncommon, depending on the location for the AMA engine to be 10 minutes behind our initial responders. Next MA behind that with interior manpower is my combo department, which is easily a good 10-15 minutes behind our AMA engine, assuming we call for them when we're dispatched. If we call them on scene it's a good 15-25 minutes depending upon location.
    I didn't have any additional help for at least 10, if not 15 minutes from the time of arrival.... I also didn't make excuses, we went to work. Not one member felt unsafe, in danger, or feared for their life during the initial stage, or any stage for that matter, of the incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    As far as waiting for everybody, I never said that. But I will wait for a backup line who can also function as RIT. I owe that much to my members.
    I had two guys interior, two guys exterior, with two lines pulled. With the size and layout of the house, myself and the other 3 were more than comfortable with what we did. But then again, we train to actually fight the fire, not "let nature take its course."

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Implemented some new policies at my VFD regarding engine company operations and developed 2 new training classes based on that program. Implemented the position of door controlman, which is a very new concept to this area. Implemented Transitional Attack from last year's FDIC.

    Just a few examples. Happy?
    Nope. You're still okay with writing off civilians and salvagable property. You can have all the training in the world for all I care, if you show up and don't put the fire out, all that training didn't mean dick anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Sure ICS is flexible, but that does not mean you have to use working command. Bottom line is that I want to be able to view the entire scene. That, as an IC, is my preference. And given the experience level of my people, I feel I need to be outside, not inside.
    I guess if you're outside, it makes it harder to hear your viable victims screaming for help.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    They will get the experience when we have the fires and the supervisory resources to get that experience.
    So never then.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    But I also understand the feelings of my Chief officers. My combo department's command staff does not support physicals. My VFD Chief supports physicals and in next year's proposed budget, he has budgeted money for them, but he is concerned about the affects on our limited manpower. The topic is still under discussion among the officers, but in the end, it will be his call, along with the board.
    What effects could it possibly have on your manpower? You show up and and don't make an interior attack anyway. I can contain the fire to the building of origin with 3 god damn guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And the level of danger is dependent on decisions that we make.
    Making the decision to stand in the yard and spray water in the building is hardly the goal of the fire service. If it was, the DPW workers could do it and you wouldn't need a fire department.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And those risks should be based on training, experience, resources, manpower and command structure, not "what a fire department should do".
    You're right, because someone who calls the fire department because their house is on fire doesn't expect the fire department to show up and do "what a fire department should do," like put the fire out.....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And it's perfectly acceptable not to take those risks because either as a department or an incident commander, you are uncomfortable with those consequences, or you do not have the resources to deal with the consequences (such as trained RIT).
    By everyone else's standards, sure. By your standards, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If you don't have the resources, training, experience, manpower or command structure, or you don't have the resources available to deal with those consequences, and you still take those risks, you are rolling the dice with the health of your members.
    And I guess my members are more willing to take those risks than your members because we don't tell them it's acceptable to write off people and structures with the blanket of safety being the reason. You're rolling the dice with your health everytime you wake up. You could get hit by a bus. You could die of sudden cardiac arrest. Do you stop living? Is there wage compensation if you walk out your front door and get hit by a drunk driver?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If you choose to put the incident needs above your members, fine.
    And this is why you're consistently wrong and battled on here. Where am I putting the needs of the incident above my members? Because we actually make a fire attack without everything YOU deem necessary in place? I haven't killed or injured one member or student ever, period. Nor have I been told that someone with me or under my command felt an immediate threat to their life. I'm not advocating reckless cowboy behavior, I'm advocating doing what you signed up to do, and doing what you were called to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    The IC belongs exterior. That is what my Chief wants. That is how I prefer to operate. And in our situation, that is what works.
    In your CURRENT situation, have you tried anything else? How do you know working command doesn't work better than exterior command in your CURRENT situation? Has your chief tried it? How does he know it doesn't work better? What's your benchmark for what works and what doesn't work if you haven't tried it in your situation?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  17. #137
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Given that there is no such community, I suspect that this "news story" is a well laid trap.

    You're an idiot. I hate to resort to 8 year old name calling, but I can't believe the stupidty of this post.

    That being said, if a commander feels that the safety of his personnel are his priority, I have no issues with his actions.
    Of course you don't.

    Why are you in the fire service? Is it strictly for your own egotistical gain?

    1. You don't care if you lose a house that could have been saved.
    2. You don't care if every possession a family owns is ruined.
    3. You don't care if your inaction kills a civilian.

    What exactly are you doing here?
    scfire86 likes this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Sounds an awful lot like depending on interior and exterior members. What happens when your interior guys have someone go down inside and all you have left are exterior?

    Most of the time it works out fine; what happens when it doesn’t?

    That's why I would love to have a roster full of interior members as well as the exterior members supporting them. But for my VFD it's not in the cards right now.

    We have a shortage of young, physically able folks who want to volunteer, so are tactics reflect that shortage.

    Actually, for most of the VFDs in the state, it's not in the cards either.





    Figure it out. That’s what all of the politicians that you love to emulate tell us to do with less budget. Figure it out. The solution is there but, again, it is far easier to just make excuses up and whine and complain. Real solutions take work and energy.

    Unless you give them the permission to print money, and you decide to mandate physicals, something would have to give. Training? PPE/SCBA replacement? Communications? Fuel?

    Yup .. those are some really good choices.


    Except for when they’re not.
    Every member can make the choice to volunteer knowing their physical condition. They know where they stand. My doctor clears me, but I realize that there is a risk given my history, and I have talked about it with my wife, and we have determined a point in the near future where I likely will go to exterior only status.

    The other member we have with a cardiac history also knows his situation, and performs a very limited list of tasks that does not exceed what he does at work and what his physician clears him for.

    Some of this is about personal responsibility.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #139
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The issue is that lowest common denominator as you call it, does not work in a vacuum.

    It works better than your excuse officer position for justifying not doing a God Damn thing. The truth is it takes 2 or 3 people to pull a hoseline and advance it interior to fight a house fire. Venting can usually be done from the inside with the hose stream if necessary. Next excuse Bobby!

    They need manpower for ventilation support. They need manpower for water supply support, especially
    in rural areas. They need support moving the line at the door. They need search support. And yes, they need chief officers need command support.

    Since you have previously claimed you have no 2 story houses, if 3 firefighters, or even 2 firefighters, can't advance a hoseline into a room on the first floor of a home without more people outside to help move the line it is just plain time for you VFD to shut down. Hell Bobby, Chenzo and one firefighter advanced a 2 inch line to the upper level of a split level home by themselves. Venting in your single story homes is most often horizontal since you said you don't do roof ops so one guy, even the pump operator can punch out a window with a tool. Or like I said above the hose stream can blow out the window.

    I'll give you they need tender drivers or someone to hook the hydrant. Use your exterior flunkies for that.

    If you have no one else a preiminary search can be done by the attack crew as they advance to the fire. Shutting any doors they come across can buy time for potential victims.

    Yepper, fill in those command vests so each side can radio the other that the roof and walls have fallen in because no one is left to fight the fire.

    Just more excuses for not acting...


    Fireground operations is much more than "the 2 or 3 guys" on the handline.

    Not initially. Further if that was true why do you wait for the 4 guys coming from your PAID AMA department for them to go interior and save the building? It seems they ARE the 2 or 3 that you say it takes much more than? At least you can have a water and a sandwhich waiting for them after they put out your fire, yet AGAIN.
    Just more balther, BS and excuses. Common place Bobbyisms.
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  20. #140
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rm1524
    The day you quit trying to better yourself and be the best firefighter you can be is the day you need to turn your gear. This goes for the chief down to the newest zit faced kid you have.

    Agreed, which is why I have attended more outside training this year, most of it on the weekends on my own time, than any other member of my VFD.

    There have been several other members that have also made that effort, but there have also been several that have not. You can't force members to take outside training.


    What good are these classes if you only go to ones that agree with your philosophy or you discount anyone with a more aggressive one?

    We have several new kids that have never been in a working fire, but guess what they have been trained, they drill and practice on a regular basis, and are excitied about getting their first fire. They have no expereince but if tones drop in the next five mintues they are going to be able to say in the morning they have some experience.

    And my guys at my VFD want to go interior at every opportunity as well, except it is our job as officers to determine when the situation is right to allow that to happen. Without enough experienced members to go interior with them, until they gain that experience, you are potentially setting the new guys upon for failure, or even worse.

    And because of what you have said here you don't want them to ever go interior because you can't provide 100% guarantee of safety.

    At this time we, at my VFD, have a significant problem putting enough officers on scene to both remain exterior and run the fire and supervise the inexperienced folks interior. Sometimes choices have to be made in the interest of firefighter safety.


    Duh? Because they all work out of town. Including you. Brillaint on your leadership's part that there was no planning put into a schedule for duty officer to guarantee any type of officer at all being available. Sometimes choices have to be made because of idiotic circumstances brought about by **** poor planning.

    Saying they don't have any experience and never letting them gain experience because of leadership having no desire to better themselves is just plain sad. Anyone in a leadership/training roll should always be looking for way to make their people the very best that they can be.

    Experience needs to be gained in manageable situations under supervision. See above.

    Which sounds good until you realize you have admitted repeatedly that you can't guarantee officers will respond to provide supervision. Nice Catch 22, no experience gained without supervision, so officers responding...

    We want them to gain experience which is why we have committed more of our budget to training, and are we doing much more live fire training, both locally and regionally, than we have in the past.

    How about committing time to having more officers that can actually respond and setting up a duty officer schedule to ensure that at least one officer will respond?

    Training, and more training, as long as it on real skills and not how to wear a command vest properly is crucial to a fire department.


    The more basic issue is simply a lack of fires to gain experience, and there is nothing that we can do about that.


    You can still train on fire attack tactics and skills and then when you have a fire do those things for real. Geez, why are excuses so much more important to you than doing the job?

    Accepting just good enough will make for a poor department. Finding excuses to not better the people in your department because you have no pride in what you do should be criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did we say that we are accepting good enough, but we do understand that our members have a lot of things, including some pretty hefty workplace demands (70-80 hours per week is not uncommon for several of our members) that limit the amount of time they can spend on fire department activities.

    Nope, you don't even accept good enough, you accept the death of citizens and the loss of everything they own as a job well done as long as you and your vollies don't get a Boo Boo. If they can't commit then they are not of much value. That doesn't mean they are bad people, just for the most part of no value if they aren't available.

    We have increased training requirements. We have budgeted increased money for outside training. We are purchasing 2 new trucks this year as well as updated SCBA. I have improved public education programming. So nowhere are we just sitting around.

    WHY??? Why buy new trucks and SCBA when you have NO ONE to use them? Geezus your priorities are so completely F***ED up it is almost beyond comprehension.

    As far as the community interest in becoming firefighters and our very limited manpower, that is the reality, and as much as we don't like it, until we can create bodies or recruit more members, it's where we stand. And it's the reality in EVERY VFD in our parish as well as neighboring parishes as there is in LA, or at least this part of LA, very little interest in the community regarding volunteer firefighting. Because of that we are now using AMA to give us that additional manpower. The reality is that the situation is likely not to change, at least in the short term, and as a department we have no choice, for the sake of firefighter safety, to accept the fact that we have to be much less aggressive, operate interior less and potentially have to sacrifice property and possibly civilian lives to keep our members safe and uninjured.


    Again, maybe if you offered some hope of a fire department that might actually save something more people might be interested in joining. Hell Bobby after a minute of listening to you and your philosophy I wouldn't walk away from joining I would sprint out the door. Sorry I don't belong to organizations that accept mediocrity with a rousing "It's all we can do and we will NEVER be better." Your department attitude is a morale killer.
    Just more of your same old schitt...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-20-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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