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Thread: Lt. Ray hits another home run!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I'm not talking about outside training, I'm talking about the basics of firefighting. Setting up your moblie water supply, dragging lines and squirting water, searches, and everthing else that goes along with firefighting. All the certifcations in the world don't make anyone a firefighter. Working your *** off on the basics is what makes a firefighter. If you can't do the basics like they are second nature then your not working hard enough.

    Which is exactly what we do for training.

    Guess what, our new guys get shoved in with a captain or an experienced firefighter. No where did I say anything about turning a virgin loose without someone with experience with them. But when you never take the chance and go interior because you want a bunch of postions filled before you make an interior attack you will end up with a department full of new guys.

    An IC is not a "bunch of positions". IC is the most critical position on the fireground, and IMO, as well as my Chief's cannot function as an IC when interior on a handline.

    This is simply about not having enough firefighters responding to make interior attack.


    You seem very content in throwing 'we can't get help/we can't get experience' flag, but show little interest in making yourself better. Spending money for outside training is a waste of money, take that money and build/buy some props that support the basics of firefighting.
    Disagree as live fire training in our situation is not a waste of money.

    We are in the process of starting our training ground.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    You guys know how much I like to make analogies right?
    So you get home and your significant other informs you that they are in the mood for a quickie. Instead of springing into action you first take a shower, shave, comb your hair, get dressed, light candles, fix a wonderful meal, look online for a romantic movie, watch said movie, get changed into you pajamas, go to bed, roll over and find your significant other asleep and then wonder why you didn't get lucky.

    So, gramma calls 911 for a pot of meat fire and instead of springing into action.........
    Really?

    So the senior officer establishing a command post is like ......?

    Gee ... Incident command ... That's not important ......
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Disagree as live fire training in our situation is not a waste of money.

    We are in the process of starting our training ground.
    What do you get out of live fire training other than going in a metal box and watching the fire grow, squirting a little water to watch steam converision, and feel some heat?

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What do you get out of live fire training other than going in a metal box and watching the fire grow, squirting a little water to watch steam converision, and feel some heat?
    Practice making sure that "his" personnel never do any of those things, as they might receive a boo-boo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What good are these classes if you only go to ones that agree with your philosophy or you discount anyone with a more aggressive one?

    Because I simply don't believe that in most cases in a rural environment aggressive firefighting is warranted or safe.

    It's that simple.


    Nope, what is simple is going to classes that nefver broaden your horizon is nothing more than a waste of time and money.

    In your area with the pathetic wreck of pretenders you call a fire department it isn't safe to do much of anything. You simply are a symptom of a disease in society, not what you can do for others but the what's in it for me and I ain't sticking my neck out for nobody attitude. Pathetic, sad, and even worse you accept it, not begrudgingly, but willingly with open arms.



    And because of what you have said here you don't want them to ever go interior because you can't provide 100% guarantee of safety.

    I would prefer that in the majority of our fires we do not operate interior, yes.

    Then quit, retire, go back to handing out coloring books and smoke detector batteries nd leave firefighting to those with the guts to do it.

    However there are situations where interior operations can be conducted assuming a reasonable response time, trained and experienced manpower and enough resources.


    You mean like when your chief enters with no scba and uses an extinguisher to put out a fire that yu say you would have let burn the house down? Yeah, right you believe in interior ops like I believe you are a firefighter.

    Duh? Because they all work out of town. Including you. Brillaint on your leadership's part that there was no planning put into a schedule for duty officer to guarantee any type of officer at all being available. Sometimes choices have to be made because of idiotic circumstances brought about by **** poor planning.


    So just out of curiosity what do you suggest. We do have a couple of members that are generally in town but neither one has ever been in a fire. Do you suggest we promote them?

    Not my problem to solve your idiotic command structure that doesn't take in to account that every command officer may be unavailable and your guys can't blow their nose without someone in a vest telling them to do so.

    By the way, the next two guys in line for LT both work 60 plus hours a week and are on call while they are off. Should we not promote them either?


    The fact that this is your only suggestion shows how completely screwed your VFD is. Truth is if that is their work schedule they are 100% worthless to the fire department. They can't even drive a tender because if they get called into work then what?

    Saying they don't have any experience and never letting them gain experience because of leadership having no desire to better themselves is just plain sad. Anyone in a leadership/training roll should always be looking for way to make their people the very best that they can be.


    And who says that we are not?

    How are you making them better? By teaching them where to stand on the lawn for optimum safety?

    We want them to be experienced interior members. We want them to gain knowledge. But the reality is that we have very few real-world chances for them to gain that experience. And we will not commit them interior unless we can supervise them.

    And since no officers may be available those chances get lost. Brilliant training plan. How about this idea...see if your AMA FD will allow ride alongs to allow your guys a chance to work with real firefighters going interior?

    I simply don't understand why this is such as issue.


    Because it is clear even with experience your attitude is don't go interior...


    Which sounds good until you realize you have admitted repeatedly that you can't guarantee officers will respond to provide supervision. Nice Catch 22, no experience gained without supervision, so officers responding...

    And again, it's not the way that we like it, but that is the way that it is.

    Ah, the woe is me, we can't fix this excuse...BORING!!


    How about committing time to having more officers that can actually respond and setting up a duty officer schedule to ensure that at least one officer will respond?

    See above. the work schedule is the work schedule, and the next two members in line work the same type of schedule.

    Then they are all virtually worthless and hold positions that are meaningless the majority of time. Thank you for finally admitting that.

    Our most experienced members are career firefighters and oilfield management. Our other lesser experienced members primarily work oil and gas field jobs, which represents a large chunk of the employment in this area, and they generally run 70-90 hours per week with shift and on-call time.

    Blah blah blah...a large number of our guys are farmers or work long hours too, hell I was working 56 a week at my career FD and up to 30 teaching and I still made the majority of calls and training.

    It5's pretty typical with many of the VFDs in this area.

    Then it is time to go paid and hire people so you actually have a fire department.

    Again, do you suggest we promote the guys who are around town with little experience?


    Nope, I suggest you close the FD and eliminate the illusion of fire protection.

    You can still train on fire attack tactics and skills and then when you have a fire do those things for real. Geez, why are excuses so much more important to you than doing the job?

    Funny thing is we do.

    Fire attack drills in the bay. Search drills in the bay. Self-rescue drills. Handline drills. Forcible entry drills.

    That never get used because they have no real world experience. Brilliant, that should motivate people to show up for training, and then actual calls.

    Pretty much the last 18 months 70% of the drills have been hands on, but it simply isn't like being in a fire and never will be. Confidence and experience comes from burn time and real-world operations, and they simply aren't there yet.

    And when fires occur you don't let them enter...

    If you want to call that excuses, have at it.


    It is excuses...plain and simple.

    Accepting just good enough will make for a poor department. Finding excuses to not better the people in your department because you have no pride in what you do should be criminal.

    We have plenty of pride. But we also know that right now the resources are simply not there for us to be a primarily interior department.

    YOU DO? Why?

    And frankly, I have doubts if we ever will be unless the manpower levels make a dramatic shift.

    BAM! There it is again, we suck and we always will. Pathetic.







    Nope, you don't even accept good enough, you accept the death of citizens and the loss of everything they own as a job well done as long as you and your vollies don't get a Boo Boo. If they can't commit then they are not of much value. That doesn't mean they are bad people, just for the most part of no value if they aren't available.

    And that is a common issue in every VFD in this area.

    Because you accept it...

    WHY??? Why buy new trucks and SCBA when you have NO ONE to use them? Geezus your priorities are so completely F***ED up it is almost beyond comprehension.

    We will be buying an engine and a tanker.

    Again, WHY?? You can't muster more than 5 guys for a night time structure fire and you need to buy new rigs? I think you would be better served taking that money and paying you vllies like $10 an hour so you could get some people to respond to calls.

    Because we have a 1966 responding first out of one station and a 1972 first due out of another. We have a 1990 E-One but that has an oil leak that is too expensive to fix, so that's our reserve.

    Aw. poor baby. With no one available to run them they will make amazing hangar queens.

    We are also down 2 tankers from what the rating requires for our district.


    Do you get the points if they never turn a wheel?


    Again, maybe if you offered some hope of a fire department that might actually save something more people might be interested in joining. Hell Bobby after a minute of listening to you and your philosophy I wouldn't walk away from joining I would sprint out the door. Sorry I don't belong to organizations that accept mediocrity with a rousing "It's all we can do and we will NEVER be better." Your department attitude is a morale killer.

    Frankly I don't think you would fit in here.

    Oh you are God D**N right I wouldn't because if we went to a fire with one room burning and you said exterior I would go right past you with a hose line and hopefully at least one of your guys with some balls and put the fire out. Same if gramma was hanging out of a window sceaming I would try to rescue her despite your rantings. With your "policy" of surrender I wouldn't even join so the problem of fitting in wouldn't be an issue. Thankfully I have my own fire engine and could at least try to save my own home instead of waiting for you to maybe arrive and slowly burn my house down.

    Never said "this is all we will ever be able to do" but the reality is the reality, and right now we have very limited capability, primarily due to manpower.


    You have said it so many times it has become boring.
    Just more of your pathetic blathering Bobby...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-19-2013 at 09:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What do you get out of live fire training other than going in a metal box and watching the fire grow, squirting a little water to watch steam converision, and feel some heat?
    Actually both of th facilities that we use are multiple unit Conex boxes that allow for hose work and actual fire attack.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What do you get out of live fire training other than going in a metal box and watching the fire grow, squirting a little water to watch steam converision, and feel some heat?
    Actually both of th facilities that we use are multiple unit Conex boxes that allow for hose work and actual fire attack.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually both of th facilities that we use are multiple unit Conex boxes that allow for hose work and actual fire attack.
    I've come to find that live fire training has made me a more confident, better firefighter..

    Yeah sure there's the real heat, real smoke, real fire..

    Watching the fire grow.. And it's behavior.. Along with the adrenaline rush from the heat/smoke and knowing that if you screw around something can seriously go wrong.. Has allowed me to act more calm and cooler at a real fire... Therefore making me a better firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    If "I" want to include those things "as a mandatory part of the job", are you freakin' kidding me? THAT IS "THE JOB"!!! THOSE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL CORE SERVICES A FIRE DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE!!!!!!!!!

    And in many places it simply isn't possible, and likely never will be possible.
    And that's been repeatedly acknowledged, but just because a particular department or type of department can't do it, that doesn't mean it's no longer part of "the job".

    For many rural VFDs the core service is to contain it to the building or origin, and in many of those places the community is happy with that role.
    While this may be true, it doesn't change what "the job" is.

    You may not like it, and it may not fit your expectation of what a fire department should do, but it's the reality in a lot of places in this country.

    And I (and others) have repeatedly acknowledged and addressed that reality.

    Then why do you keep fighting it and keep trying to press your expectations of a fire department on those communities?
    I'm not trying to press my expectations on them, that's just your impression. My contention is simply that if their "fire department" cannot provide at minimum, a victim search supported by interior fire attack, then they don't have an actual Fire Department. They have an organization that responds to incidents involving fires.

    If that's not your view, then you should re-think how you present it because you certainly present your view of the fire service that way.

    I understand the reality and have no issues with that reality. I have no desire to press expectations on any fire department that is either incapable or unwilling to operate interior.
    Right, you prefer to press your cowardly expectations on Fire Departments that ARE capable and willing to operate interior.

    It's perfectly fine with me if they operate that way, either by choice or by the reality of their circumstances.
    No surprise there.

    They may disagree, however they would be wrong and like you, they'd be missing the point being made. They may understand that their "fire department" is doing the best they can within their limitations and that may be the best effort that the community can realistically expect however, that doesn't mean that they are actually doing "the job" as he and many, many others see it to be. A true Fire Department makes the effort to fight fires and rescue victims.

    That's based on your definition of "the job". that doesn't make it the right definition.
    Like I already stated, it's not MY definition of what "the job" is, it's what "the job" actually IS!!

    It's not my portion of the fire service's definition, I was talking about the general expectations of the citizens we protect you buffoon!


    And you know the general expectations of those citizens? Not likely. As CaptOT said, often the citizens of those communities are damn happy with what they have and respectfully refer to the fire department in very positive terms.

    Don't superimpose the expectations of YOUR citizens on to THEM as they likely are very different.
    I'm not superimposing anything on anybody. I'm saying a "real" Fire Department is capable of performing certain specific tasks, like victim search supported by interior fire attack. I'm not trying to impose my or my citizens' expectations on them. I'm simply stating the inability or unwillingness to do those certain specific tasks means that they don't have a "real" Fire Department.

    Present the following scenerio to YOUR citizens: their house is on fire, a member of their family is trapped inside the house (viable), fire apparatus arrives. Now ask them if they have any expectations that the people that showed up on that fire apparatus will attempt to save their loved one (since that's what "real" Fire Departments typically do in those situations).

    If you think they will have absolutely no expectation of a rescue attempt by those people and be absolutely fine with no attempt being made, then you're a far bigger buffoon than any of us could have imagined.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 06-19-2013 at 10:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    BAM! There it is again, we suck and we always will. Pathetic.
    In summation your honor, I would like to submit Exhibit A.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-20-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Great, and in my combo department or previous VFD, where I both have/had some very experienced members who worked a number of fires, I might have done or do the same thing, depending on the circumstances, but that is not the case with my VFD.
    I think it's funny how you always resort to saying you would do something with your previous department that you wouldn't do with your current department, making it seem like it's strictly a department problem that you burn houses down and kill citizens....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If I am the incident commander, that means I likely have some very inexperienced members on scene with maybe on exterior member with some experience.
    Which you've painted to be the norm... And you've claimed you're trying to change that.... But here we are again, nothing's changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If that's the case I will be exterior and I will not commit those members interior without an experienced member. As I have stated before, if there is a rescue, I may commit myself interior, depending on the viability of the victim. If not a rescue, I have no issues with an exterior attack as a holding action until the far more experienced AMA engine arrives.
    You can claim that's the reason you'll remain exterior, but I don't believe you. I know why you stay exterior, and the day you can admit it is the day the world will stop spinning and the sun will implode. I also don't believe that you would attempt a rescue, period... You may instruct other members to attempt a rescue, but helping people is clearly not in your nature. You're all about yourself,.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And so do we when in the opinion of the IC, we can do so with minimum risk. As I have stated, both my DC and Captain would likely be more aggressive. I am not, and never will be. Simply not nor ever will be my nature. If I am going to commit interior with the experience level currently on the department, I want a backup line at a minimum, going on the ground, staffed with 2 experienced members as they make entry, and I will not compromise on that.
    I'm well aware that risking yourself to help someone else isn't in your nature. I'm also well aware that if all your ducks aren't in a row that you especially won't risk anything to save anyone. As much as I hate it, the fire service has to make do with what it has and still do the job, not burn houses down and kill civilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    I will write them off if I do not have enough members on scene to safely perform operations or my members are not adequately trained, or experienced enough, in my judgment to perform the task without risk of significant injury.
    That's sad, really. Someone calls you for help and you throw in the towel becuase things aren't perfect in your mind. Why are you in the fire service again? Oh that's right, for your ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    would hardly say that training hasn't meant dick, but it doesn't change my bottom line for what I consider to be a safe fireground operation.
    It's okay, you don't have to say it. I said it and we all know it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    As I have stated multiple times, if I have a viable victim I will go interior, even if I am the senior officer. That is the one exception.
    Yeah sorry not buying it. I don't believe you because that goes against everything you've preached here and your "personal operational standard."

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Given that in 33 years I have responded on two situations where there was a rescue, I don't expect that to happen anytime in the near future.
    Completely wrong attitude. Because something hasn't happened often, you shouldn't prepare or train for it? You should just write it off that it happens so infrequently that you shouldn't worry about it? I haven't responded to a call where a rescue was needed, but I still train on it, I still mentally prepare myself for it. I haven't responded to anything that's needed RIT either, but I train on it, prepare for it, and have even, with Fyred, pushed both departments to buy RIT specific equipment and tools to make the job easier should it have to be performed. Should we just stop and write all that off because RIT hasn't been needed yet? I didn't think so.....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Given the limited availability of our officers, coupled with the limited number of fires there will be very limited opportunities.
    Soooo..... Never then. Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    The group it would likely affect would be our exterior members, so it would significantly hurt our operations in terms of tanker ops, and we may have to commit one of two of our interior members to pump ops or water supply.
    Hm... So you mean like a normal fire department then. You'd have to have people trained to do everything, not just task specific trained members... What a concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    We show up and make an interior attack when we have the manpower to do so.

    I really like how you twist my words, but I am very used to it by now.
    I haven't twisted anything. You've painted the clear picture that you can't get the response to make an interior attack. So I am not wrong in saying that you don't make an interior attack, nor am I wrong in saying that I can contain the fire to the building of origin with 3 guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Wrong.
    How is it wrong? Tell me why the DPW couldn't stand outside with a hose and spray water into a building. Is it because then you wouldn't have anywhere to get the fuel your ego so desires?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If manpower doesn't allow it, we should have enough concern for our members to not put them in dangerous situations simply to meet citizen expectations.
    I have plenty of concerns for my members. Hence why I'm a big supporter of increased training standards. If manpower doesn't allow it, work HARDER to change the manpower situation. Who's expectations are we to meet then? Last time I checked it was the citizens who paid the taxes to give you a budget... Are they not our customers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If you are on a fire department with no water rescue gear and no water rescue training, and you arrive at the scene of a water rescue incident, what do you do?
    Certainly not stand around and wait for the water rescue team, which could be between 10 and 30 minutes out, to show up. Improvise, adapt, overcome. Make do with what we have. If we can't enact a rescue, at least we TRIED.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    So you really feel that it's OK to take risks that are not supported by manpower levels, training, experience or backup resources?
    Nope. I guess I just have a better understanding of what I can do with the limited manpower I might get. I guess that's why I push hard for extra training, which in turn will gain them at least a little bit of experience. And I guess that's why I've looked into how far out MA will be, so I know when my backup resources will be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    It's not their job to determine what risks they will or will not take. That's the job of the IC. I really don't care how much they may want to enter. if I feel it's unsafe either due to experience, training, manpower, resources or the position of the moon the IC is the one that makes the call.
    This isn't about them not wanting to do it. it's about me as the IC deciding if I will allow them to do it.
    Which is why you're fire department will continue to remain pathetic. As long as you, and anyone with the same mindset as you, is in a command position, you will always fail to do the core functions of the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And if you want compare entering a burning building vs. getting hit by a car have at it, but it's not an apt comparison.
    Nah, it's a pretty apt comparison. You talk about risks, you risk getting killed on a daily basis by some unforeseen circumstance, regardless of if you're walking down the street, or entering a burning building. Where's your wage protection when you get hit by a drunk driver?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Never said you were reckless. My only issue was the IC being interior.
    Right, you didn't say reckless, you said unsafe. Good thing you weren't there then, because I would have gone interior as IC regardless of your assinine views of where I should have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    What I signed up to do was train, prepare and respond. Everything after that is a choice based on conditions, resources, manpower, experience and training.
    You train to pad your resume, you prepare your speech to the family who just lost grandma because of your inability to act, and you respond to watch the house burn down.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Because I fully grasp the level of training and experience in my CURRENT situation, and it simply, for me, will not work.

    I have enough experience not to use it. It's really that simple.
    Exactly, so you haven't tried it. You're just speculating that it won't work because you're the all knowing and all powerful Oz of Bossier Parish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I wish a "Can do" attitude was more viable to some than a "We can't do" was.
    No argument from me there.

    Frankly, the woe is me'ers, the we can't do anything because we don't have what someone else has, or we can't do anything because we don't have all shiny and new trucks and equipment make me want to puke. That is not the fire service I know. We do the best we can with what we have and that means going inside to fight fire and save lives when conditions allow. Not appointing an excuse officer to give reasons and explanations for inaction.
    Again, no argument from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I think it's funny how you always resort to saying you would do something with your previous department that you wouldn't do with your current department, making it seem like it's strictly a department problem that you burn houses down and kill citizens....

    It is a department issue.

    My previous VFD had 50 active members who had fire experience as we ran a lot more working incidents. We ran close to 800 fire calls a year. We had a 20 square mile response area vs. a 100 square mile response area. We had 2 other departments coming in AMA on every structural call with a response time of less than 7-8 minutes.

    Yes, my previous VFD was a very different world.


    Which you've painted to be the norm... And you've claimed you're trying to change that.... But here we are again, nothing's changed.

    I would not say it's the norm as on any given day we could have a very different set of responders, depending on what shift is working at the neighboring combo department. But it certainly can and has happened.

    Depending on the day we could have 3 officers and a couple of interior members or no officers and a driver and and an interior member.

    We have a response issue. I never denied that. On any given call I can't guarantee that we will have enough members to operate. I can't guarantee an officer. There have even been incidents recently where all we had respond was a driver/exterior member.

    So yes, we have a response issue.



    You can claim that's the reason you'll remain exterior, but I don't believe you. I know why you stay exterior, and the day you can admit it is the day the world will stop spinning and the sun will implode. I also don't believe that you would attempt a rescue, period... You may instruct other members to attempt a rescue, but helping people is clearly not in your nature. You're all about yourself,.

    Given that you know nothing about my history ......



    I'm well aware that risking yourself to help someone else isn't in your nature. I'm also well aware that if all your ducks aren't in a row that you especially won't risk anything to save anyone. As much as I hate it, the fire service has to make do with what it has and still do the job, not burn houses down and kill civilians.

    Again, wrong about me, but if you want to continue to make judgments about myself over the internet, have at it.

    And no the fire service does not have to "make do" with what we have and commit to any operation without the proper number of members who are properly trained, and the right resources.

    If we are shorthanded we have the right to not make entry or perform the rescue. if we do not have the right resources, we have the right to not commit to operations. If we do not have the specialized training for a specialized situation - water, ice, confined space, trench, collapse, cave, etc, etc - we have the right to standback until those specialized resources arrive.

    No son, you are dead wrong on that.

    We have the right to protect our men. Our lives are the priority.



    That's sad, really. Someone calls you for help and you throw in the towel becuase things aren't perfect in your mind. Why are you in the fire service again? Oh that's right, for your ego.

    Never said things had to be perfect but there has to be a level of safety for my personnel.

    Adequate members on the initial handline with adequate training and experience for the occupancy and/or task. A backup liner either on the ground or going on the ground with members trained for the occupany, who can also operate as RIT. EMS on scene or responding. Exterior command. And an adequate water supply in place or being put in place (such as tankers on the air and responding).

    That's not perfect. But that does give the members a level of safety. We owe them that much.



    It's okay, you don't have to say it. I said it and we all know it's true.

    I have yet to attend a training that recommends interior operations with much less than what I have described as above.

    In the situation where there is a rescue I may consider operating without the backup line, depending on the viability and fire conditions, and may operate on the line as the IC .


    Yeah sorry not buying it. I don't believe you because that goes against everything you've preached here and your "personal operational standard."

    Don't really care if you buy it or not, but that would be my only exception to not being exterior command.


    Completely wrong attitude. Because something hasn't happened often, you shouldn't prepare or train for it? You should just write it off that it happens so infrequently that you shouldn't worry about it? I haven't responded to a call where a rescue was needed, but I still train on it, I still mentally prepare myself for it. I haven't responded to anything that's needed RIT either, but I train on it, prepare for it, and have even, with Fyred, pushed both departments to buy RIT specific equipment and tools to make the job easier should it have to be performed. Should we just stop and write all that off because RIT hasn't been needed yet? I didn't think so.....

    We train on removing victims frequently. We train on search operations. We train on victim removal, both firefighter and civilian.

    My point was that rescues, especially in volunteer departments are very, very infrequent events. There is a very good chance that I will not encounter a rescue situation in my VFD until I retire. Of course, I could encounter one tonight but that is statistically unlikely.

    That being said, a rescue situation does not change the fact that the priority, in my mind, is my personnel.



    Soooo..... Never then. Gotcha.

    It could be tomorrow that we get a building where we can make entry. It could be this time next year.

    Our fires are that infrequent.



    Hm... So you mean like a normal fire department then. You'd have to have people trained to do everything, not just task specific trained members... What a concept...

    I would love to have enough interior members that I didn't need exterior personnel, but that's not going to happen here. Never will.

    And even if I did, I would still like to see exterior members and drivers.



    I haven't twisted anything. You've painted the clear picture that you can't get the response to make an interior attack. So I am not wrong in saying that you don't make an interior attack, nor am I wrong in saying that I can contain the fire to the building of origin with 3 guys.

    There is a reasonable possibility that we would not have the staffing to make an interior attack until the AMA engine arrives. That is the accurate statement.

    As far as the 3 guys ... there are few places where it would be tough for three guys to do that, but certainly it would be affair statement for the majority of our district.


    How is it wrong? Tell me why the DPW couldn't stand outside with a hose and spray water into a building. Is it because then you wouldn't have anywhere to get the fuel your ego so desires?

    I guess the DPW could do that .....



    I have plenty of concerns for my members. Hence why I'm a big supporter of increased training standards.

    So am I.

    Internal standards developed by the department to meet their training needs, occupancies, district and equipment. Not a vanilla generic standard that may simply not meet their needs.


    If manpower doesn't allow it, work HARDER to change the manpower situation.

    And we have, with limited results.

    Bottom line is that our community is older. Much of the younger members of our community work in the oil and gas business and simply don't have the time to commit to the fire department, or simply don't have the interest in being a firefighter.


    Who's expectations are we to meet then? Last time I checked it was the citizens who paid the taxes to give you a budget... Are they not our customers?

    And we give them the service relative to the manpower that the community provides.



    Certainly not stand around and wait for the water rescue team, which could be between 10 and 30 minutes out, to show up. Improvise, adapt, overcome. Make do with what we have. If we can't enact a rescue, at least we TRIED.

    Sounds like a recipe for firefighter injuries and fatalities. Attempting any type of a technical rescue without the proper PPE, proper training, proper experience and proper resources often turns out badly for us.

    There are times that we simply have to say NO. Technical rescues that we are not trained and equipped to do is one of those times.

    Small departments often cannot be expected to handle all problems. Limited funding. Limited time. Limited resources. And we have to accept that reality.



    Nope. I guess I just have a better understanding of what I can do with the limited manpower I might get. I guess that's why I push hard for extra training, which in turn will gain them at least a little bit of experience. And I guess that's why I've looked into how far out MA will be, so I know when my backup resources will be there.

    I know exactly how far each of my MA departments are and exactly what they can and can't give me in terms of interior members.

    As far as pushing my personnel, I know exactly where the line is.




    Which is why you're fire department will continue to remain pathetic. As long as you, and anyone with the same mindset as you, is in a command position, you will always fail to do the core functions of the job.

    I will do the core functions when manpower allows me to.

    If I do not have the interior manpower to perform the core functions safely, I won't.

    It all comes down to bringing them home every time.

    And I understand that there are departments in this area that have even less interior manpower, and struggle even more to perform those functions. And that's OK.



    Nah, it's a pretty apt comparison. You talk about risks, you risk getting killed on a daily basis by some unforeseen circumstance, regardless of if you're walking down the street, or entering a burning building. Where's your wage protection when you get hit by a drunk driver?

    Difference is getting hit by a drunk driver is an occurrence which is not a result of a choice.

    Getting hurt in a fire is..... And I owe it to them to utilize them in a way that they will not get hurt. The department, the IC and the officer assigned to their team is responsible for them not being injured and being able to work their next scheduled shift.

    That is an obligation that we assumed when they made the choice to volunteer.



    Right, you didn't say reckless, you said unsafe. Good thing you weren't there then, because I would have gone interior as IC regardless of your assinine views of where I should have been.

    Anytime the IC is interior I consider it unsafe.

    And yes, that applies to the times that as an IC, I went interior.

    By me being interior, I had less control of the fireground. Therefor, the scene was unsafe.



    You train to pad your resume, you prepare your speech to the family who just lost grandma because of your inability to act, and you respond to watch the house burn down.

    Whatever dude.


    Exactly, so you haven't tried it. You're just speculating that it won't work because you're the all knowing and all powerful Oz of Bossier Parish.

    I know that getting bit by a Copperhead is a bad thing. I don't have to go out and beat the bushes to find a Copperhead to know that it would be a bad thing.

    I know how combat command works with a well trained and experienced department responding with adequate resources, as I have done it and have the t-shirt.

    I don't have to try utilizing combat command with a marginally trained department responding with marginal resources to know that it won't work.

    And no, I'm not going to prove it by trying it.

    And by the way, my VFD isn't in Bossier Parish.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Given that you know nothing about my history ......
    I don't have to know anything about your history to know what kind of person you are. You've made that clear through your posts on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Again, wrong about me, but if you want to continue to make judgments about myself over the internet, have at it.
    I will, don't worry. Your posts here have painted the picture of what kind of person you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    If we are shorthanded we have the right to not make entry or perform the rescue. if we do not have the right resources, we have the right to not commit to operations. If we do not have the specialized training for a specialized situation - water, ice, confined space, trench, collapse, cave, etc, etc - we have the right to standback until those specialized resources arrive.
    That may work for you, but I have this thing called a conscience. I will try my damnedest to do SOMETHING before I stand around and do NOTHING, and watch people die. Will that something be the ideal tactic, best suited for that situation? Probably not, but knowing I tried means a whole hell of a lot more to me than the guilt I'll have from standing around doing nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    No son, you are dead wrong on that.
    If I was your son, I would have ran away from home the second my little legs would have let me. I may be wrong about a lot of things, but I will hold fast that doing something is better than doing nothing until the day they put me in the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    We have the right to protect our men. Our lives are the priority.
    I'm not going to unnecessarily risk any one of my members lives. I'm also not going to stand around and do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    That's not perfect. But that does give the members a level of safety. We owe them that much.
    I owe them a level of safety as an officer, yes. However I will not achieve that level of safety by standing around doing nothing, or conducting exterior operations on a room and contents fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Whatever dude.
    Ah the defeatist response, the teenage equivalent to f*ck you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    as I have done it and have the t-shirt.
    I bet you have a lot of neat t-shirts that say you've done a lot of things... Doesn't impress me, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    And by the way, my VFD isn't in Bossier Parish.
    Didn't say your VFD was in Bossier Parish. All I simply said is that you were the all knowing Oz of Bossier Parish. Reading comprehension, try it sometime.

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    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Attempting any type of a technical rescue without the proper PPE, proper training, proper experience and proper resources often turns out badly for us.
    care to show some examples of these "often" bad results?

    Small departments often cannot be expected to handle all problems. Limited funding. Limited time. Limited resources. And we have to accept that reality.
    Wrong. My department is smaller than yours. My budget is 1/3 of yours. There's an emergency in town...we are there....doing something about it. We don't sit back and say "Not our problem". There is not a thing in our area that we can't/won't respond and remediate in some way. Will it be the "NFPA
    way? Nope. It will be the "real life get the job done" way.

    PS - I'm willing to wager you have had more injury claims than my department has.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    care to show some examples of these "often" bad results?

    Untrained firefighter dies in manhole rescue:

    http://www.firerescue1.com/firefight...escue-dangers/

    Mississippi firefighter dies in water rescue without equipment:

    http://www.firefightingnews.com/arti...rticleID=91194

    Article discusses 3 technical rescue incidents where firefighters were either overcome or killed:

    http://www.firehouse.com/article/104...-rescue-part-1

    Article regarding the hazards of water rescue in bunker gear:

    http://firechief.com/water-amp-ice-rescue/water-rescue

    There are other examples as well.

    You and I both know that there have been a significant number of firefighters killed while performing technical rescues without the training or proper PPE/equipment.

    I guess if you want to take a shot, have at it. But it's certainly not someplace that I will put any of my personnel without either the training or equipment
    .



    Wrong. My department is smaller than yours. My budget is 1/3 of yours. There's an emergency in town...we are there....doing something about it. We don't sit back and say "Not our problem". There is not a thing in our area that we can't/won't respond and remediate in some way. Will it be the "NFPA
    way? Nope. It will be the "real life get the job done" way.

    PS - I'm willing to wager you have had more injury claims than my department has.
    I can't remember the last time my VFD had an injury claim.

    And again, if you want to assume the liability for putting a member into a situation, and in particular a technical rescue that he is untrained or unequipped to handle, have at it.

    It's not fair to him, his family or the department that will have to answer for it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-20-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Untrained firefighter dies in manhole rescue:

    http://www.firerescue1.com/firefight...escue-dangers/
    "Firefighter Kelly went to his pickup truck, put his boots on, and entered the manhole in civilian clothing with no PPE or SCBA, unbeknownst to his chief. He made it halfway down the access ladder and then fell to the bottom, according to the report."

    http://www.firerescue1.com/firefight...tored-in-LODD/


    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Mississippi firefighter dies in water rescue without equipment:

    http://www.firefightingnews.com/arti...rticleID=91194
    Never did I say I would attempt a rescue in the water without proper equipment. I said I would do something before I said I would do nothing. The firefighter in question here swam out to the boat, which was approximately 150' from shore. For one, I wouldn't swim that far because I know I would cause more danger to myself than help I could provide. 2. At Dept 1 we have a little john boat, I would have requested that and rowed out to him and done what I could from there. 3. At Dept 2, I don't believe we have any boat, however you'll be hard pressed to find only one boat in any of the lakes/ponds/rivers/etc in our response district, so I would attempt to ask a civilian to take me out there. Ta-Da. Doing something instead of nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Article discusses 3 technical rescue incidents where firefighters were either overcome or killed:

    http://www.firehouse.com/article/104...-rescue-part-1
    I don't have time to look up all three stories right nowm, but believe me I will. My only question regarding all of them is, where was their SCBA?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Article regarding the hazards of water rescue in bunker gear:

    http://firechief.com/water-amp-ice-rescue/water-rescue
    Common sense says don't go in the water with big heavy clothes on.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    My point was not specifically directed at you, or at anyone else in particular, but was addressing Bones comments that I should post some specific example.

    My point was that as a service, we have been taught that "because we are the fire department, we have to do something", and been told that doing that something is part of our traditions. Often that means we do "something" that we are untrained and unequipped to do and justify that with the tradition line.

    Sometimes, often through luck, it works out and everybody goes home.

    And then there are those cases where the bad stuff happens.

    These articles have to do with the technical rescue side, but they happen on the haz-mat and the structural firefighting side as well.

    The fact is that we need to teach our members that we don't have to do something if we are untrained and unequipped. We have to train them that as much as it goes against our nature, have to call for and wait for the folks that have the training and the equipment.

    Or else we will continue to lose members performing operations that they have no training in and no equipment for.

    As far as the structural side, yes this includes making entry when you do not have enough members to safely do so and making entry in situations where the fire conditions have clearly made victim survival unlikely.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Sometimes, often through luck, it works out and everybody goes home.
    If one believes in luck you would be correct. I don't. My crews went home because they were trained and knew how to do their jobs.

    Now that we know you depend on luck, it explains your reluctance to do anything that requires more effort than standing around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If one believes in luck you would be correct. I don't. My crews went home because they were trained and knew how to do their jobs.

    Now that we know you depend on luck, it explains your reluctance to do anything that requires more effort than standing around.
    And there was a good chance that in your environment, your members were trained to do water, collapse, trench and technical rescue, or were at least trained at the awareness level and could perform as trained while waiting for your specialized companies.

    The problem is that most VFDs, especially rural VFDs, do not have that level of training in technical response and often try to take actions just because "we are supposed to".

    If you look at the firefighter fatality data from untrained members operating at those incidents, it's generally volunteers.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Which goes to show that training, if even for the "unexpected" will make a difference. I say "will" because, when people are in trouble, they call 9-1-1. If we're not going to do it, who will? Every community has confined spaces, or tenches or even buildings that may fall down with people in them. This is all basic, job essential stuff. It is so tiring watching you make excuse, after excuse, after excuse. F*ck, it's almost like being at a union meeting. Are you really that much of a slug that all you're going to do is make excuses?

    If the fraternal organization you're talking about in a previous post is the FOOLS, all I can say is that I'm shocked. You are absolutely nothing that the organization stands for, represents or desires to be like.
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 06-20-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "because we are the fire department, we have to do something", and been told that doing that something is part of our traditions.
    No no no... See this is where you're wrong... I'm not doing "something" because I'm the fire department and I feel I have to uphold tradition, I'm doing ANYTHING versus NOTHING because I would rather fail at doing something than succeed at doing nothing.

    Regardless of if I was with the fire department or not, I would still do something, because it's in my nature and upbringing to help, not make excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    No no no... See this is where you're wrong... I'm not doing "something" because I'm the fire department and I feel I have to uphold tradition, I'm doing ANYTHING versus NOTHING because I would rather fail at doing something than succeed at doing nothing.

    Regardless of if I was with the fire department or not, I would still do something, because it's in my nature and upbringing to help, not make excuses.
    The problem is that "failing at doing something" could mean that one of us gets hurt or killed trying to do something that they are untrained to do or unequipped to do.

    Bottom line is that any kind of a technical rescue - water, ice, trench, confined space, cave, wilderness, - requires a very specialized skill set and usually a specialized set of PPE and equipment. Failing to have that training or that PPE, and trying to do "something" without it often ends badly for us.

    And by the way, Awareness level training generally doesn't allow us to anything except evaluate the situation, call for help and secure the incident. Even operations level training allows for a minimum level of very defined offensive operations which the vast majority of the fire departments in this country are not trained to do, and for many that are, that training and equipment does not extend to the standard company level.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-20-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    No no no... See this is where you're wrong... I'm not doing "something" because I'm the fire department and I feel I have to uphold tradition, I'm doing ANYTHING versus NOTHING because I would rather fail at doing something than succeed at doing nothing.
    Regardless of if I was with the fire department or not, I would still do something, because it's in my nature and upbringing to help, not make excuses.
    With you Brother Chenzo, shoulder to shoulder. We are often the last bastion of hope people have when they call. I can tell you don't take that trust in us lightly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Which goes to show that training, if even for the "unexpected" will make a difference. I say "will" because, when people are in trouble, they call 9-1-1. If we're not going to do it, who will? Every community has confined spaces, or tenches or even buildings that may fall down with people in them. This is all basic, job essential stuff. It is so tiring watching you make excuse, after excuse, after excuse. F*ck, it's almost like being at a union meeting. Are you really that much of a slug that all you're going to do is make excuses?

    That being said, there is simply no way that most volunteer departments would have the time to train most of thier personnel to operate at the operations, much rather the technician level for water/ice, trench, confined space and collapse rescue operations.

    And no, this is not "basic stuff". This, on the volunteer level is specialized, advanced stuff that the typical volunteer will simply not have the time to train on.

    That being said, I do know some volunteer departments that have some crackerjack specialty teams, but as a rule they tend to specialize in one or two areas particular to their response areas, not the whole. In addition, many of these teams use members from the community who do not operate at fire scenes, but simply operate with these specialized teams.

    The fact is it's simply not realistic to expect most FDs, and especially VFDs to be able to provide response to these advanced operations as a part of their basic, essential response package.

    I know on my combo department, we struggle to just keep our high-angle team. We do no confined space, trench or collapse response beyond Awareness as the time simply does not exist to train on them.


    If the fraternal organization you're talking about in a previous post is the FOOLS, all I can say is that I'm shocked. You are absolutely nothing that the organization stands for, represents or desires to be like.
    The members of the board know my dedication to the fire service and training, and feel that I do possess the values of the organization.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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