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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    You're an idiot.

    That wasn't the point of the picture, but it's certainly the point of this response.
    So courage means we should always act?

    What about the courage not to act when it's not right for your men?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Don't really care what you buy. Again, those who work with me know who I am, and that is really all that counts.
    Do your lips ever get tired from tooting your own horn?
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So courage means we should always act?

    What about the courage not to act when it's not right for your men?
    YOU SHOULD ALWAYS ACT - yeah there are times when you should limit your actions and dang right sometimes it does take courage to limit your actions such as the Worchester cold storage. But always try your best. Years ago we were discussing wildfire tactics -talked about having a running head fire and a small crew. Point was made , don't wring your hands and watch, start flanking it and you never know, you might get a favorable wind shift and all of a sudden your little flank line pays big dividends. Ill be blunt -I tried for years to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you are just a coward and you are trying to pull the rest of the fire service down to your level so youll feel better about yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do your lips ever get tired from tooting your own horn?
    "I bet his lips get tired from "tooting the chiefs" horn". Only reason I can come up with for him keeping his "gig"
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  5. #65
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So courage means we should always act?

    What about the courage not to act when it's not right for your men?
    You do have a point there. One needs only to look at the Worchester fire to see the courage it took for command to say "no more". However, the men there have something you don't, guts.

    Once again, so you cannot use this to your advantage, not a single person is advocating making entry into structures that the conditions have deteriorated to untenable. They understand that there is a stopping point. Unfortunately, our stopping point and yours are so far apart, the Hubble Space Telescope couldn't see that far.
    IAFF

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice picture.

    And your point?

    I hope your not saying that we should be operating interior in that scenario.
    You are being silly again LAFE.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  7. #67
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    COLOR="#0000CD"]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny as I'm about to be promoted at my VFD and was just named the Education Trustee for the northwest LA chapter of a national firefighting fraternal organization.

    Brilliant move by your chief...promote yet another officer that lives AND works out of the district and hence is completely unavailable at times. Yet you continue to wonder why you have no officers available at fires. Pathetic continuation of the same nonsensical approach.

    So officers should be available at all times? How about when you were working at your FT gig ... 100 miles away?

    P.S .... I can respond in for daytime incidents as my FT is the neighboring district though I rarely do unless it's a working fire .


    First of all, I wasn't a LINE officer on either department until Monday night, I was the training officer. Now I am a Lieutenant on #1 POC FD. Further, I never said EVERY OFFICER should be able to respond, I said you can't guarantee ANY officer will respond. Reading is fundamental.

    Was just asked to come on as an hand-off instructor with state fire training agency.

    Golly that's pretty impressive. I have been teaching hand-off courses for the NFA for almost 2 decades. Of course that pales when you consider I have been a tech college fire instructor and certified teacher for 33 years. (Still want to try and impress us with your big accomplishments?) By the way, any decent instructor, or decent firefighter for that matter, will have other firefighters or neighboring departments ask them on occasion to show them a new skill or teach a class.

    Cool.

    Yepper, so you see Bobby, your resume and your continual need to post it really isn'tall that impressive.

    And I still have several other departments calling asking me to teach on a regular basis. In fact, I just did 2 classes for 2 departments in a neighboring parish.

    Well, since you have described your neighbors being as pathetic a train wreck as your VFD that makes complete sense. "Tonight guys I will teach you the top ten excuses for not going interior. 1) You might get a boo boo, 2) You have to clean equipment, 3) We need to fill command vests first, 4) ...

    Actually these were departments to the west of my FT gig with paid staffs, large budgets and good reputations.

    Sorry to disappoint ya.


    And they call you with your attitude to teach them? I was right then. [/COLOR]


    So .............................. .... Your point was??????

    His point was pretty clear...too bad you are too obtuse to see it.

    Ya, too bad it wasn't the case.

    Uh Huh...

    Thanks for the little resume show again...I hope mine wasn't too much of a bitch slap for you.


    Nope.

    Sure thing.

    Funny thing is that I been teaching regionally and statewide just as long, but hey, it's not like me to brag.


    Really? Are you serious? You can't wait to broadcast every little class you attend. yeah, you may not like to brag but you sure like to boast.
    Yepper, more blah, bla, blah...
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    You do have a point there. One needs only to look at the Worchester fire to see the courage it took for command to say "no more". However, the men there have something you don't, guts.

    Once again, so you cannot use this to your advantage, not a single person is advocating making entry into structures that the conditions have deteriorated to untenable. They understand that there is a stopping point. Unfortunately, our stopping point and yours are so far apart, the Hubble Space Telescope couldn't see that far.
    But they are advocating making entry into a structure with personnel who do not have adequate experience to operate interior without experienced supervision without experienced supervision.

    And to me that is not acceptable.

    It is also, not acceptable under the current manpower and experience conditions of my VFD to operate without exterior incident command, yet there are posters here that know nothing of my VFD that are stating that I am wrong.

    Yes, is my idea of safety for my members likely a higher standard than most of the posters here? YES. And I'm not apologizing for that. Every one of my members will return home uninjured, and if that precludes them from making entry into situations where others would commit manpower, so be it, but I will not see my members injured, especially for property.

    It's fair to say that the citizens of our district do not have that expectation.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It's fair to say that the citizens of our district do not have that expectation.
    Until you've told them, up front, in plain English, "Look, we probably won't be able to go inside and save your family or possessions. I'm sorry, but that's the way things are," you can't assume that they have that expectation.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But they are advocating making entry into a structure with personnel who do not have adequate experience to operate interior without experienced supervision without experienced supervision.

    And to me that is not acceptable.

    It is also, not acceptable under the current manpower and experience conditions of my VFD to operate without exterior incident command, yet there are posters here that know nothing of my VFD that are stating that I am wrong.

    Yes, is my idea of safety for my members likely a higher standard than most of the posters here? YES. And I'm not apologizing for that. Every one of my members will return home uninjured, and if that precludes them from making entry into situations where others would commit manpower, so be it, but I will not see my members injured, especially for property.

    It's fair to say that the citizens of our district do not have that expectation.
    So to get there you just need a bunch of old guys that have done the job for forty years to join and then work forty miles away that are of little use to the vfd or the community.
    I would say that your idea of safety is crippling to the community, the initiative of your members and the morale of the unit. Not to mention that you health standards are dangerous to the community and the firefighters themselves. "Hey, your terribly fat have high BP?" "Under our 'warm body' philosophy towards volunteering you will fit in nicely!" "We don't do anything strenuous anyway because it might be dangerous."
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But they are advocating making entry into a structure with personnel who do not have adequate experience to operate interior without experienced supervision without experienced supervision.

    And to me that is not acceptable.

    It is also, not acceptable under the current manpower and experience conditions of my VFD to operate without exterior incident command, yet there are posters here that know nothing of my VFD that are stating that I am wrong.

    Yes, is my idea of safety for my members likely a higher standard than most of the posters here? YES. And I'm not apologizing for that. Every one of my members will return home uninjured, and if that precludes them from making entry into situations where others would commit manpower, so be it, but I will not see my members injured, especially for property.

    It's fair to say that the citizens of our district do not have that expectation.
    "Everyone of your member will return home uninjured" (unless one of your walking heart attacks goes down)-with your attitude -just leave em at home.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...and if that precludes them from making entry into situations where others would commit manpower, so be it, but I will not see my members injured, especially for property.

    It's fair to say that the citizens of our district do not have that expectation.
    Honest question, and this may have been asked/answered before....are you sure your citizens know the limits of their FD? What message/media has the FD used to notify the citizens of this policy?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    So to get there you just need a bunch of old guys that have done the job for forty years to join and then work forty miles away that are of little use to the vfd or the community.

    Given that most of the good paying jobs in this area have to do with either working out of town or working in the gasfields, are you suggesting that we turn away members with the physical ability to fulfill an interior role?

    I would say that your idea of safety is crippling to the community, the initiative of your members and the morale of the unit.

    No, right now I would say that my idea of safety will likely prevent a injury of LODD given our current staffing, which in the end, does trump the needs of the community.

    Not to mention that you health standards are dangerous to the community and the firefighters themselves.

    Given that I do not know of a VFD or combination department in this half of the state that requires physicals for their volunteer members, we're obviously not alone.

    "Hey, your terribly fat have high BP?" "Under our 'warm body' philosophy towards volunteering you will fit in nicely!"

    Members who want to operate as interior are required to complete an obstacle course in gear and PPE during the application process in a specified time, so we do have a performance and a a physical ability standard.


    "We don't do anything strenuous anyway because it might be dangerous."
    Ya, that's what we do.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Honest question, and this may have been asked/answered before....are you sure your citizens know the limits of their FD? What message/media has the FD used to notify the citizens of this policy?
    Common sense.

    They know what they pay in taxes vs. the city.

    They know we are volunteer.

    And they know the LE and EMS will also take longer.

    This really isn't rocket science. They know that living in the rural area has consequences. They see it everyday with road maintenance and other basic services. The folks in this area know that they are served by a VFD with extended response times.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Common sense.

    Isn't so common anymore. Not good enough reasoning.

    They know what they pay in taxes vs. the city.

    That doesn't mean that they know the response time, and actions, of the fire department will be any different than the city.

    They know we are volunteer.

    That's nice. The community where Dept 1 is knows we are volunteer... They also know that when we show up, we're there to help, not wring our hands and say we're sorry. Same goes for the village and townships Dept 2 covers. Again, being a volunteer doesn't justify inaction.

    And they know the LE and EMS will also take longer.

    But I bet they also know that when LE shows up, they're going to do their job. And I bet they know the same about EMS, they're going to show up and go to work.

    This really isn't rocket science. They know that living in the rural area has consequences. They see it everyday with road maintenance and other basic services. The folks in this area know that they are served by a VFD with extended response times.
    But what do they expect you to do when you show up? They may understand that it's going to be a longer response, but do they know that when you show up you may or may not do anything but confine the fire to the building of origin? Do they know you might "let nature take it's course?"
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Common sense.

    They know what they pay in taxes vs. the city.

    They know we are volunteer.

    And they know the LE and EMS will also take longer.

    This really isn't rocket science. They know that living in the rural area has consequences. They see it everyday with road maintenance and other basic services. The folks in this area know that they are served by a VFD with extended response times.
    My town knows we are volunteer as well. And extended response times are one bit of the puzzle.

    There is a big difference in believing the FD will come to rescue a person vs not committing their members for safety reasons. And you know that.

    Do the citizens know that the likelihood of the FD making entry to attack the fire and/or search for a victim is very low or not expected of the FD? Has your FD told them that fact?

    It's a very simple yes/no question.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    My town knows we are volunteer as well. And extended response times are one bit of the puzzle.

    There is a big difference in believing the FD will come to rescue a person vs not committing their members for safety reasons. And you know that.

    Do the citizens know that the likelihood of the FD making entry to attack the fire and/or search for a victim is very low or not expected of the FD? Has your FD told them that fact?

    It's a very simple yes/no question.
    They do not have the same expectations that they would of the neighboring city combo department.

    And again, I would not say that we are not likely to make entry. if the manpower exists we will, however, at this time, however, manpower levels fluctuate significantly.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They do not have the same expectations that they would of the neighboring city combo department.

    Until you've TOLD them, and they've ACKNOWLEDGED that, don't for one second think that their expectations lie with what you're capable of doing.

    And again, I would not say that we are not likely to make entry. if the manpower exists we will, however, at this time, however, manpower levels fluctuate significantly.

    Which means you wont.... Because you've made repeated claims that the manpower doesn't exist.
    Mr. PubEd, why don't you sack up and educate the public on what you're capable of doing? Here's an example for ya....

    http://fox6now.com/2013/01/25/sherif...r-best-option/

    Can you do that word for word? Of course not, you're the "fire department," not the police. But something along those lines would be a great start.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    He's never going to admit that his sham of a VFD is built on the delusionary belief that the people of the community know that the $160K they fund annually essentially buys them a burn down your house and recover the bodies service.

    He absolutely cannot go to any sort of public forum and report this, either to the governing body or the citizens. He won't report that they can't guarantee any response at all, he can't report if there is a response that they can't guarantee a single officer will respond, he can't report that because of a lack of training and a number of exterior only members that he can't guarantee an adequate number of firefighters to go inside and fight the fire or attempt to rescue any trapped victims.

    You see if he or the chief actually go public with this news, instead of pretending that everyone already knows, the house of cards collapses and the light of reality creaps in. People will begin to wonder why they need multiple stations, and new trucks, when there is no one to operate them and no one to actually fight the fire in a way that might save their home and their very lives.

    It is delusions built on false premises hidden by smoke, mirrors and lies. Nothing more.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    He's never going to admit that his sham of a VFD is built on the delusionary belief that the people of the community know that the $160K they fund annually essentially buys them a burn down your house and recover the bodies service.

    He absolutely cannot go to any sort of public forum and report this, either to the governing body or the citizens. He won't report that they can't guarantee any response at all, he can't report if there is a response that they can't guarantee a single officer will respond, he can't report that because of a lack of training and a number of exterior only members that he can't guarantee an adequate number of firefighters to go inside and fight the fire or attempt to rescue any trapped victims.

    You see if he or the chief actually go public with this news, instead of pretending that everyone already knows, the house of cards collapses and the light of reality creaps in. People will begin to wonder why they need multiple stations, and new trucks, when there is no one to operate them and no one to actually fight the fire in a way that might save their home and their very lives.

    It is delusions built on false premises hidden by smoke, mirrors and lies. Nothing more.
    First of all, I am not in a position to make the decision on what to tell and not tell the citizens.

    That is the decision of the Chief and the Board.

    I personally would have no issues. It may stimulate recruitment.

    And there is not a VFD in this area that can guarantee anything that you have mentioned. So should they all fold?

    And again, what would be your solution since you seem to have all the answers?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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