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Thread: I was browsing Backstep Firefighter today....

  1. #1
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Default I was browsing Backstep Firefighter today....

    And I came across this piece. I can't remember if it's been posted or not, but I figured it needed to be posted again.

    From Brother Firefighter Dave LeBlanc:

    An excerpt from "Obligations"

    There is another part of this equation that is not so simple to explain. When your department is properly funded and provided for, and you have not been beating the bushes asking for more, and yet you are still not prepared to meet you obligation.

    Why arenít you prepared? Usually it is because of either a lack of leadership, allowing the department to have incomplete policies, procedures and poor training. Or it is because somewhere along the line your leadership has decided that programs like ĎEveryone Goes Homeí were actually developed as excuses for fire departments not to do their jobs. They wear these programs as a cape or shield, insulating their firefighters from the risks associated with firefighting.

    (Before the knives come out, the above statement is not an anti EGH statement. It is however an indictment of those that chooses to improperly use it to justify their unpreparedness)

    And as the fire service constantly goes down the path to become safer, we must realize that some of those choices may come at the expense of our 'customers', and they have the right to know that. If you donít tell your citizens, and you opt not to enter based on the belief no one could be alive inside, not that the conditions were untenable or beyond your capabilities, then expect to answer some hard questions on the news, in the paper and maybe in court.

    If your department is unable to meet the mission they are tasked with, you have the obligation to tell those you are responsible to protect that you can't. It may not prevent the uncomfortable interviews or even the lawsuit, but it sure as hell will be defense Exhibit A.
    http://backstepfirefighter.com/2013/01/06/obligations/
    FyredUp, Lewiston2FF and Miller337 like this.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse


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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    If your department is unable to meet the mission they are tasked with, you have the obligation to tell those you are responsible to protect that you can't. It may not prevent the uncomfortable interviews or even the lawsuit, but it sure as hell will be defense Exhibit A.
    I have said this, it seems a bajillion times, and it has fallen on deaf ears. I guess the only thing I would change is I would add unwilling to unable. Because it appears some departments are more unwilling than unable to do the job.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have said this, it seems a bajillion times, and it has fallen on deaf ears. I guess the only thing I would change is I would add unwilling to unable. Because it appears some departments are more unwilling than unable to do the job.
    And that is a choice that every fire department has the right to make.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that is a choice that every fire department has the right to make.
    NOT IF THEY DON'T PUBLICLY ANNOUNCE THEIR INTENTION TO LET PEOPLE DIE AND THERE PROPERTY BE DESTROYED WITHOUT EVEN GIVING THEM A CHANCE.

    The truth is all your BULL SCHITT, and all your blather, and all your "The public knows" is nothing more than a LIE if you haven't publicly announced it not only to your governing body but to the citizens. Not casually, not offhandedly, not telling Billy Joe or Betty Lou Who down in the diner, but PUBLICLY announcing what you refuse to do.

    I know you will NEVER advocate doing that because then your charade, your little house of cards, all crumbles into dust and you and your VFD look like the sham you are.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    NOT IF THEY DON'T PUBLICLY ANNOUNCE THEIR INTENTION TO LET PEOPLE DIE AND THERE PROPERTY BE DESTROYED WITHOUT EVEN GIVING THEM A CHANCE.

    The truth is all your BULL SCHITT, and all your blather, and all your "The public knows" is nothing more than a LIE if you haven't publicly announced it not only to your governing body but to the citizens. Not casually, not offhandedly, not telling Billy Joe or Betty Lou Who down in the diner, but PUBLICLY announcing what you refuse to do.

    I know you will NEVER advocate doing that because then your charade, your little house of cards, all crumbles into dust and you and your VFD look like the sham you are.
    And as I have stated many times, the citizens are quite aware of all of the public services in the rural areas.

    The fact is that you don't live here, so you have no grounds to make any comments on what the citizens know or don't know, and never will.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #6
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And as I have stated many times, the citizens are quite aware of all of the public services in the rural areas.

    The fact is that you don't live here, so you have no grounds to make any comments on what the citizens know or don't know, and never will.
    UNLESS YOU HAVE PUBLICLY TOLD THEM, AND TOLD ANYONE NEW MOVING IN, YOU ARE DELUSUONAL IF YOU BELIEVE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU WON'T GO INSIDE UNLESS EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND SINCE IT NEVER WILL BE, THEY WILL DIE AND LOSE EVERYTHING.

    Just because you say it, doesn't make it true, IF you haven't told them. Again, if I moved in there, and you refused to act and I lost a family member, or even just all my stuff, you would see what an uninformed citizen would do to your happy horse schitt.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    UNLESS YOU HAVE PUBLICLY TOLD THEM, AND TOLD ANYONE NEW MOVING IN, YOU ARE DELUSUONAL IF YOU BELIEVE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU WON'T GO INSIDE UNLESS EVERYTHING IS PERFECT AND SINCE IT NEVER WILL BE, THEY WILL DIE AND LOSE EVERYTHING.

    Things don't have to be perfect but there has to be a reasonable level of safety for the members, even if there are civilians inside of the structure.

    As I have stated both the Deputy Chief and the Captain and likely to take greater risks than myself as IC

    I am far more conservative and truly believe that any operation needs to be guided by the principal that everyone of my responding members will go home uninjured on every single call.


    Just because you say it, doesn't make it true, IF you haven't told them. Again, if I moved in there, and you refused to act and I lost a family member, or even just all my stuff, you would see what an uninformed citizen would do to your happy horse schitt.
    Again, if you moved in here and had a fire and was unhappy with our response, I suppose you would have the right to pursue any course of action that you wanted.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Every one of your members will go home uninjured on every call?????

    I don't know what you're running there but it's not a fire department. You think guys can't get hurt stretching supply lines or protecting exposures? Any time you have people in heavy gear moving heavy objects under heavy emotional stress you have the possibility of injury. Sometimes it's even dark out, or there's smoke (imagine that), and visibility is reduced. So even the most conservative, safety conscious, understaffed and undertrained department WILL have injuries.

    Except Fantasyland FD maybe?

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    I think this is the most disturbing when fire departments are cut and the Fire Chief feeds a load to City Council/Mayor/Public/Etc that response times will remain unchanged or become better. If they are going to cut the fire department, let them know the operational costs of those cost savings. When people and property are charred cinders aren't the time to say "whoops, guess we shouldn't have closed those companies."

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Every one of your members will go home uninjured on every call?????

    I don't know what you're running there but it's not a fire department. You think guys can't get hurt stretching supply lines or protecting exposures? Any time you have people in heavy gear moving heavy objects under heavy emotional stress you have the possibility of injury. Sometimes it's even dark out, or there's smoke (imagine that), and visibility is reduced. So even the most conservative, safety conscious, understaffed and undertrained department WILL have injuries.

    Except Fantasyland FD maybe?
    Certainly there will be periodic injuries exterior, especially in the way of sprains and strains.

    And in this state, heat injuries can be a major issue, but even those can be minimized through rotation, or if no relief manpower is available, simply backing away from the incident and allowing nature to take it's course.

    I'm talking about the significant injuries that can happen interior. i simply refuse to accept those and my decision making will revolve 100% around preventing those injuries, followed by incident mitigation.

    And yes, those injuries can be prevented through prudent operations.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Certainly there will be periodic injuries exterior, especially in the way of sprains and strains.

    And in this state, heat injuries can be a major issue, but even those can be minimized through rotation, or if no relief manpower is available, simply backing away from the incident and allowing nature to take it's course.

    I'm talking about the significant injuries that can happen interior. i simply refuse to accept those and my decision making will revolve 100% around preventing those injuries, followed by incident mitigation.

    And yes, those injuries can be prevented through prudent operations.
    Yet judging by that "creepy" picture posted, you are wagging around about 40 extra pounds and have known cardiac issues. And you refuse to push for physical fitness standards. You allow "exterior" members with heart problems get behind the wheel of a 40,000 lb vehicle endanger others. Hypocrite
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Yet judging by that "creepy" picture posted, you are wagging around about 40 extra pounds and have known cardiac issues. And you refuse to push for physical fitness standards. You allow "exterior" members with heart problems get behind the wheel of a 40,000 lb vehicle endanger others. Hypocrite
    Further regarding that picture...Where is his turnout gear? He never had it on because he doesn't have bunker pants on. This is the self proclaimed safety guru of the fire service? Yeah, okay...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    And in this state, heat injuries can be a major issue,
    Another hazard of the job unique to your area.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Further regarding that picture...Where is his turnout gear? He never had it on because he doesn't have bunker pants on. This is the self proclaimed safety guru of the fire service? Yeah, okay...
    You are correct. I never had on bunker pants or turnout gear on for this incident as I never was engaged in structural firefighting tasks.

    The primary reason was that I drove a piece of apparatus. Drivers in my combo department do not gear our before leaving the station and drive in their street clothes/station wear. The Chief does not want his drivers in turnout gear, especially fire boots, while driving.

    In addition, the driver of the rescue is responsible for assisting the driver of the first due engine in obtaining a water supply, then, if need be, bunkering out. In this case I hand-jacked 200' of 4" with the help of the parish medic crew to the hydrant, and made the hydrant. By the time that was completed, the fire was knocked down and we had enough members arriving POV that I simply didn't need to bunker out.

    ...... So now you know the rest of the story.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-17-2013 at 10:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Yet judging by that "creepy" picture posted, you are wagging around about 40 extra pounds and have known cardiac issues. And you refuse to push for physical fitness standards. You allow "exterior" members with heart problems get behind the wheel of a 40,000 lb vehicle endanger others. Hypocrite
    Funny thing is that I don't "allow" anything ...... The Chief officers make policy.

    And once again, my cardiologist has cleared me for any fireground activity, as long as my cholesterol numbers remain stable as I have no cardiac damage.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-17-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Another hazard of the job unique to your area.
    Not so much the heat, but the humidity accompanying the heat.

    It's not uncommon for most departments in this area to transport 3-5 members for heat related problems during significant fires and even extended MVA extrication operations.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not so much the heat, but the humidity accompanying the heat.

    It's not uncommon for most departments in this area to transport 3-5 members for heat related problems during significant fires and even extended MVA extrication operations.
    Which is a perfect example of the importance of yearly medicals, and required p/t standards.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Which is a perfect example of the importance of yearly medicals, and required p/t standards.
    I never stated that physicals and P/T standards did not have value in the fire service.

    Again, my biggest issue with required physicals for the rural fire service is the cost, and the fact that the money in many of these departments simply does not exist and to meet that requirement, they likely will have to cut equally important areas such as PPE and SCBA replacement, training and communications. In some departments with very limited budgets it could even impact the ability to purchase fuel.

    And there will be some very significant manpower impacts as well.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You are correct. I never had bunker pants or turnout gear on for this incident.

    The primary reason was I drove a piece of apparatus. Drivers in my combo department do not gear our before leaving the station. The Chief does not want his drivers in turnout gear, especially fire boots, while driving.

    In addition, the driver of the rescue is responsible for assisting the driver of the first due engine in obtaining a water supply, then, if need be, bunkering out. In this case I hand-jacked 200' of 4" with the help of the parish medic crew to the hydrant, and made the hydrant. By the time that was completed, the fire was knocked down and we had enough members arriving POV that I simply didn't need to bunker out.
    That's all well and good, but in the picture you sure as hell aren't standing by a pump panel. You are near the house ,and according to your tirade previously about the firefighter that climbed the ladder to take the baby from another firefighter without his helmet on he had no business being there, and neither do you. So you see Bobby, this situation is a catch 22, either you are supposed to wear your gear when near the building or there are exceptions. Apparetly when driving you don't need gear eve whe close to the buildig, but whe savig a life, from the exterior you do. Does your hypocrisy have any bounds at all?

    By the way, another busy day at work? I see you hit the computer right away this morning...Yeah, you sure are busy.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-17-2013 at 10:16 AM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I don't "allow" anything ...... The Chief officers make policy.

    I love this line of crap from you. When it suits you you are involved with decision making and policy and when it is easier to skate off and blame someone else when you get cornered you do that instead.

    And once again, my cardiologist has cleared me for any fireground activity, as long as my cholesterol numbers remain stable as I have no cardiac damage.

    Well Bobby, and I am not being mean, I guarantee you unless you are taking some heavy cholesterol eds your numbers aren't good. Exercise is the cure to most cholesterol issues...
    Still hard at it huh? Oh that's right, you said your boss approves of your spending hours on the net everyday.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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