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    Default Lt. Ray McCormack.. batting 1.000...

    From Urban Firefighter's Facebook page...
    Don't You Just Hate Traditions
    By Ray McCormack

    We hear a lot of blame being placed on fire service traditions. Get rid of the traditions and everything will be better!

    Some don't even have to be traditions in the true sense they can just be statements, such as "Firefighting is a dangerous profession."
    This one is bad to some because if you think it is dangerous it will be.
    I wonder what fires they are attending?

    Another tradition of having large, well attended firefighter funerals and referring to all firefighters as heroes is bad. Some believe not all firefighters are heroes and their death should reflect that and young firefighters may see glory in death and take unnecessary risk. Have the courage to tell their families they were not heroes.

    And that pesky tradition of saving lives and property some think that needs the boot too. How has that one stayed around so long? Oh thats right, thats at the core of what firefighters do, but you know to some the core is rotten.
    If you run a department and this is how you feel don't lie to the public, tell them you no longer provide life or property saving services, it will make your departments renaming or dismantling that much easier.

    Keep Fire in Your Life
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I agree with most everything Lt. McCormack says and does, but I cant help but be reminded of the south park episode when Kyle stands in front of the mirror and says biggie smalls three times and the rapper shows up and starts shooting everyone. Not that I think the LT. would do that, but I will not say his name three time while looking in a mirror or my computer screen.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    I believe in traditions. But I think that some people on both sides take things too far. I am kinda in the Lt. camp. I think the biggest problem is as things change on the fireground, people are either afraid, unwilling, or don't want to take the time to adapt. So instead of adjusting tactics, they say that it is impossible or not worth the work and condemn the rest of us as being suicidal and dinosaurs. From what I read the folks that accuse us of being dinosaurs are gaining support from national sources.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I believe in traditions. But I think that some people on both sides take things too far. I am kinda in the Lt. camp. I think the biggest problem is as things change on the fireground, people are either afraid, unwilling, or don't want to take the time to adapt. So instead of adjusting tactics, they say that it is impossible or not worth the work and condemn the rest of us as being suicidal and dinosaurs. From what I read the folks that accuse us of being dinosaurs are gaining support from national sources.
    Really? Please do tell.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I believe there are elements all around us who would like to change the core of the fireservice. I know instructors in our state that want us to never risk a thing, for life or property. Then I read the magazines and read from people who only talk about building construction and how everything is made of oil and they say we need to change, but never give an example of how, just that we need to. The volunteers around here eat this stuff up, they have been told that everything has changed and figure that they should not even bother now, so training suffers, health standards suffer, and the community suffers. Who benefited from that tradition being lost? I should not have said national sources, I meant sources from national magazines and such, if that makes any sense.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Opinions are like anal sphincters.... everybody has one, some of them stink.

    First of all... while a lot of home furnishing are now made from plastics (and have beeen since the mid 1950's) we have better smoke detectors to warn us of fire.

    The fire tactics from those days have evolved, plus we have better gear, SCBA, thermal imagers and such to help us do the job.

    In a lot of communities, legacy style construction is the norm rather than the exception. If there is new construction, go out on a drill night and go to one of these construction sites and see how these new structures are being built and the materials used.

    My house is a hybrid, the main house, built in 1997 is legacy platform, the garage addition has some zipboard. everything is regular lumber with the exception of the garage doors, which are insulated aluminum. the only other materials not wood are the decks and steps which are Trex and Azek.
    If you have balloon frames, go out and identify them. Lightweight trusses? go identify them

    There are a lot of authors who do know the job, those are the people you reading and should be paying attention to rather than some guy who went right into prevention because he was afraid to do the job. The people with the wall of certifications and no practical experience fall into the same category.

    If these "so callled instructors" don't want anyone to risk a thing... then what is the point of having a fire department? Why are they even teaching? If they are doing it for the money and spreading that bovine scat, they have literally spit on the graves of Brothers and Sisters who made the supreme sacrifice to protect life and property.

    One might as well just toss the money to the insurance companies and pray that they will not find some half azzed excuse not to pay a claim.
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    We as volunteers are bombarded with reasons not to do the job almost constantly. At one meeting we were talking about modern construction and the simple answer was to not make entry at all. I asked which houses were light weight construction and no one knew. Instead of doing preplans it was easier to make blanket policies to never go interior. We are quickly loosing our tradition of dedication, training and service and quickly working towards a tradition of putting ourselves ahead of everyone and everything. For what it's worth, it makes me proud to be a firefighter when I read articles by Lt. McCormack and others (even some on this forum!) that live the job every day. It is easy to get discouraged when you have people in your outfit who would like to make all the "changes" that Lt. McCormack and others fight so hard against. Sorry for the rant.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Opinions are like anal sphincters.... everybody has one, some of them stink.

    First of all... while a lot of home furnishing are now made from plastics (and have beeen since the mid 1950's) we have better smoke detectors to warn us of fire.

    Doesn't help much when a room reaches flashover in less than 4 minutes vs. 24 minutes 20 minutes ago. Just about the time we are arriving the room has reached the full growth stage, or in the case of most VFDs, well after it has flashed and there is simply nothing of value to justify the risk.

    The fire tactics from those days have evolved, plus we have better gear, SCBA, thermal imagers and such to help us do the job.

    So explain to me why every 3rd or 4th day we read about members severely burned operating interior.


    In a lot of communities, legacy style construction is the norm rather than the exception. If there is new construction, go out on a drill night and go to one of these construction sites and see how these new structures are being built and the materials used.

    In my volunteer and combo communities we have seen very little lightweight. The new homes are stick lumber and nail, and even most of the commercial is still heavy beam, not lightweight.

    However, we have a high percentage of mobile homes in both communities, so while early collapse without warning is not an issue except in rare cases, heavy fire involvement on arrival is.


    My house is a hybrid, the main house, built in 1997 is legacy platform, the garage addition has some zipboard. everything is regular lumber with the exception of the garage doors, which are insulated aluminum. the only other materials not wood are the decks and steps which are Trex and Azek.
    If you have balloon frames, go out and identify them. Lightweight trusses? go identify them

    There are a lot of authors who do know the job, those are the people you reading and should be paying attention to rather than some guy who went right into prevention because he was afraid to do the job. The people with the wall of certifications and no practical experience fall into the same category.

    So if you go into prevention you are afraid to do the job? Really? What about if a firefighter gets his paramedic and rides the bus most of the time? Or goes into investigations?


    If these "so callled instructors" don't want anyone to risk a thing... then what is the point of having a fire department?

    They may see that risk only should be taken for realistic gain. Silly concept, I know.

    Why are they even teaching? If they are doing it for the money and spreading that bovine scat, they have literally spit on the graves of Brothers and Sisters who made the supreme sacrifice to protect life and property.

    So understanding that we are dealing with a very different world, and accepting the fact that killing firefighters is simply no longer acceptable is spitting on the graves of the brothers and sisters?

    Wow. 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.


    One might as well just toss the money to the insurance companies and pray that they will not find some half azzed excuse not to pay a claim.
    As much as I respect McCormack as a member of the FDNY, the more I am glad that i don't work under him.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo
    Opinions are like anal sphincters.... everybody has one, some of them stink.

    First of all... while a lot of home furnishing are now made from plastics (and have beeen since the mid 1950's) we have better smoke detectors to warn us of fire.

    Doesn't help much when a room reaches flashover in less than 4 minutes vs. 24 minutes 20 minutes ago. Just about the time we are arriving the room has reached the full growth stage, or in the case of most VFDs, well after it has flashed and there is simply nothing of value to justify the risk.

    So which is it? Your vfd is losing places because of delay in arrival due to travel times OR they are arriving in under 4 minutes and watching flashover from the front lawn?

    You can have flashover in a single room and if the door is closed to the rest of the house the fire may not have extended past that room...Golly, betcha didn't think of that now did ya?


    The fire tactics from those days have evolved, plus we have better gear, SCBA, thermal imagers and such to help us do the job.

    So explain to me why every 3rd or 4th day we read about members severely burned operating interior.

    Really? Every fourth day? Prove it.

    In a lot of communities, legacy style construction is the norm rather than the exception. If there is new construction, go out on a drill night and go to one of these construction sites and see how these new structures are being built and the materials used.

    In my volunteer and combo communities we have seen very little lightweight. The new homes are stick lumber and nail, and even most of the commercial is still heavy beam, not lightweight.

    Yet you have written off every lightweight constructed building before even arriving as a standard tactic...

    However, we have a high percentage of mobile homes in both communities, so while early collapse without warning is not an issue except in rare cases, heavy fire involvement on arrival is.


    Every FD faces heavy fire upon arrival on occasion. You seem to relish in it as an excuse and cover up for inaction.

    My house is a hybrid, the main house, built in 1997 is legacy platform, the garage addition has some zipboard. everything is regular lumber with the exception of the garage doors, which are insulated aluminum. the only other materials not wood are the decks and steps which are Trex and Azek.
    If you have balloon frames, go out and identify them. Lightweight trusses? go identify them

    There are a lot of authors who do know the job, those are the people you reading and should be paying attention to rather than some guy who went right into prevention because he was afraid to do the job. The people with the wall of certifications and no practical experience fall into the same category.

    So if you go into prevention you are afraid to do the job? Really? What about if a firefighter gets his paramedic and rides the bus most of the time? Or goes into investigations?

    Truth is some do use those positions as a way to hide from line duty. Not all but I guarantee you if you talk to firefighters across the country you will find more than not that know someone who skated that way. Doesn't mean they aren't doing a great job in their new area.

    If these "so callled instructors" don't want anyone to risk a thing... then what is the point of having a fire department?

    They may see that risk only should be taken for realistic gain. Silly concept, I know.

    If your never willing to risk anything then get out of the fire service. Every entry has risk, every response has risk, it is the nature of the business. Knowing when to enter and when not to is the core. If you are always looking for reasons not to enter then it is time to get out of the business.

    Why are they even teaching? If they are doing it for the money and spreading that bovine scat, they have literally spit on the graves of Brothers and Sisters who made the supreme sacrifice to protect life and property.

    So understanding that we are dealing with a very different world, and accepting the fact that killing firefighters is simply no longer acceptable is spitting on the graves of the brothers and sisters?

    That isn't what he said, not that I would expect YOU to understand what a firefighter feels about the job and his duty.

    Wow. 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.


    Geezus, can you do anything right? the saying is "200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress."

    One might as well just toss the money to the insurance companies and pray that they will not find some half azzed excuse not to pay a claim.

    As much as I respect McCormack as a member of the FDNY, the more I am glad that i don't work under him.

    Believe me you wouldn't last long in his company. You would be shipped out to do pub ed or inspections.
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    You come across as the most selfish, narcissistic, egotistical, closed minded, argumentative person I have come across LA, but at least you are consistent, oh, wait,....................nope.
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    Bossier Bobby loves to throw out stats that he makes up in his head.

    Really, people are getting severely burned every thrid or fourth day? Like FyredUp says.. post the god damned stats or shut up. Deflect and divert that!

    As far as people hiding from line duty in prevention or pub ed.. if the shoe fits, wear it. I know of a few that fit that description to a T. If they can't get into a day postion, they are the "doorway dancers" that always manage to have something go wrong with their gear or scba, then watch from the sidelines as they try to get their act together...they become blisters... manage to get their ducks in a row and go inside after the hard work is done.

    I also know a few that end up in Fire Prevention until a slot on a company opens up, or they volunteer to go into Fire Prevention as one friend of mine did after his wife died, his kids were in school and his Chief worked with him so that he could still get his time in and be home for his kids when they got off the bus.

    As much as I respect McCormack as a member of the FDNY, the more I am glad that i don't work under him
    You don't respect what he does or what he says.
    You wouldn't last three minutes in Ray's company or his firehouse.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-23-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bossier Bobby loves to throw out stats that he makes up in his head.

    As far as people hiding from line duty in prevention or pub ed.. if the shoe fits, wear it. I know of a few that fit that description to a T. If they can't get into a day postion, they are the "doorway dancers" that always manage to have something go wrong with their gear or scba, then watch from the sidelines as they try to get their act together...they become blisters... manage to get their ducks in a row and go inside after the hard work is done.
    I'll second this statement. We have quite a few that fall into that category. Short timers with 20 years left riding the car doing inspections or investigation.
    IAFF

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    Every third or fourth day? What about all the working fires and rescues where nobody got killed because they did their jobs with dedication and commitment and a desire to serve there fellow man? Did you want to mention those?
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    You can have flashover in a single room and if the door is closed to the rest of the house the fire may not have extended past that room...Golly, betcha didn't think of that now did ya?
    This post right here pretty much sums up my ENTIRE premise for arguing with this bumbling idiot... Just because condition in one room have gone to schitt, just because victims in that ONE room are more than likely gone already, DOESN'T MEAN WE WRITE OFF THE REST OF THE HOUSE AND POSSIBLE VICTIMS IN OTHER ROOMS OF THE GOD DAMN HOUSE.

    Bedroom 1, Second floor, B-side catches fire, fire consumes the room and contents, the room flashovers, but the door was shut... Does that mean that we don't try to stop the fire from accessing the rest of the house? Does that mean we write off the possible victims in Bedroom 2 on the D-side FIRST floor? Um, no. Sorry.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Data from a NFPA report in 2012 "Patterns of Fireground Injuries"

    Here is the link if you wish to read the entire paper or check on the data: http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/OS.patterns.pdf







    Fireground injuries in the U.S. Of these, an average of 27,920 were minor, and 10,740 were
    moderate or severe.

    The leading types of minor injuries were: strain or sprain accounting for an annual average of
    6,880 injuries or (25%); pain only, accounting for 3,215 injuries (12%); thermal burns only,
    accounting for 2,885 injuries (10%); cut or laceration, accounting for 2,285 injuries (8%).

    The leading types of moderate and severe injuries were: strains or sprain accounting for an annual average of 3,705 injuries a year, or 34%; thermal burn, accounting for 1,090 injuries (10%); pain only, accounting for 985 injuries (9%).

    Activities related to extinguishing a fire accounted for half of the minor injuries (14,090 or
    50%), and for half of the moderate and severe injuries (5,440 or 51%).

    The leading causes of minor injuries were exposure to something (6,500, or 23%), while for
    moderate and severe injuries the leading cause of injuries were fell, slipped, or tripped (3,000 or
    28%).

    Keywords: firefighter fireground injuries, primary apparent symptom, type of activity while
    injured, age of injured firefighter, time of day, improving firefighter safety.






    Note the section in red. Moderate or severe thermal burns accounted for 10% of the fireground injuries or 1,090 injuries, or an average or 2.98 moderate or severe thermal burns per day.



    Also Note:

    Note: These are national estimates of fires and firefighter injuries reported to U.S. municipal fire departments and so
    exclude fires and firefighter injury reported only to federal or state agencies or industrial fire brigades. National estimates of
    total fireground injuries are made based on data reported by fire departments to the NFPA in its Annual Fire Experience
    Survey. Firefighter detailed casualty information is based on data reported by fire departments participating in NFIRS 5.0.
    Fires are rounded to the nearest hundred, and fireground injuries are rounded to the nearest five.




    So these numbers are likely lower than actual as they are based on what the fire department reports to NFPA, and we all know that there are many, many departments that do not report their data as it is voluntary.



    By the way, did you happen to note the story about the firefighter being burned in CA on today's home page?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-24-2013 at 12:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    This post right here pretty much sums up my ENTIRE premise for arguing with this bumbling idiot... Just because condition in one room have gone to schitt, just because victims in that ONE room are more than likely gone already, DOESN'T MEAN WE WRITE OFF THE REST OF THE HOUSE AND POSSIBLE VICTIMS IN OTHER ROOMS OF THE GOD DAMN HOUSE.

    Ya, if the doors happen to be closed or the occupants decide to close the doors on the way out. And yes, it happens, and has happened in fires that I have responded to, but it's certainly very much the exception and not the rule.

    What we do and "write off' as you put it depends on the manpower and level of training and experience that manpower possess, not the fire.

    As I have stated earlier, my manpower dictates my tactics, not the fire, and there are times that the manpower may simply not exist to save the structure, even in your scenario in most of the departments in my volunteer parish, including mine.


    Bedroom 1, Second floor, B-side catches fire, fire consumes the room and contents, the room flashovers, but the door was shut... Does that mean that we don't try to stop the fire from accessing the rest of the house? Does that mean we write off the possible victims in Bedroom 2 on the D-side FIRST floor? Um, no. Sorry.
    If manpower permits, no.

    And again, if manpower permits. If it permits me to commit members interior with a reasonable level of assurance that they will be able to go to their full-time job tomorrow morning.

    Given the size of my volunteer district and the response time to get to the station and get apparatus to the scene, unless this fire is in the core area of the district, called in very early by the residents and does not involve a mobile home, it's very unlikely that this fire would still be contained to the bedroom and possibly the hall, when we arrive, or more importantly arrive with enough manpower to safely make entry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ya, if the doors happen to be closed or the occupants decide to close the doors on the way out. And yes, it happens, and has happened in fires that I have responded to, but it's certainly very much the exception and not the rule.

    So it makes sense to just assume the door was left open, the whole house is on fire, and that Grandma and Little Suzy are dead.....

    What we do and "write off' as you put it depends on the manpower and level of training and experience that manpower possess, not the fire.

    Because a room and contents fire, or a kitchen fire, deserve the same standoff-ish tactics as a fully engulfed structure with roof collapse.... Okay that almost makes sense too.....

    As I have stated earlier, my manpower dictates my tactics, not the fire, and there are times that the manpower may simply not exist to save the structure, even in your scenario in most of the departments in my volunteer parish, including mine.

    See above.


    If manpower permits, no.

    You're right, a room located as remote as possible from the room of origin, a room that is untouched by fire, doesn't deserve a search to make sure there's no one in there. Makes sense to me....

    And again, if manpower permits. If it permits me to commit members interior with a reasonable level of assurance that they will be able to go to their full-time job tomorrow morning.

    Right, if manpower permits. Which means you'll stand around and look important until your AMA shows up and does all the real work. "Well, we had a room and contents upon arrival, but we had to wait for you to show up, so now the entire second floor is engulfed." Yep, makes perfect sense...

    Given the size of my volunteer district and the response time to get to the station and get apparatus to the scene, unless this fire is in the core area of the district, called in very early by the residents and does not involve a mobile home, it's very unlikely that this fire would still be contained to the bedroom and possibly the hall, when we arrive, or more importantly arrive with enough manpower to safely make entry.

    Oh, okay. I gotcha. Just show up and watch "nature take it's course." Seems like a logical argument to me... It's not like we're the department they call to come put out the fire or anything..... Oh, wait......
    Logical argument, valid points. It all makes sense. How can I argue with that?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Note the section in red. Moderate or severe thermal burns accounted for 10% of the fireground injuries or 1,090 injuries, or an average or 2.98 moderate or severe thermal burns per day.
    These stats you cited don't actually support your claim of hearing about firefighters getting burned every 3 or 4 days. It only shows that the injuries have occurred and been reported.

    Besides, if these burn injuries are occurring on average at a rate of almost 3 per day, shouldn't we be hearing about them daily rather than every 3 or 4 days?

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    So it makes sense to just assume the door was left open, the whole house is on fire, and that Grandma and Little Suzy are dead.....

    No, I never stated that. But if there the door has been left open there will likely be smoke throughout the house, and if that's the case, there is a high likelihood that they are not viable.

    The decision on rescue if short staffed will depend on the conditions at the door and the viability of the potential victims.


    That being said, if manpower permits, a rescue attempt should be made. f operating with just myself, one other interior member and an exterior member, that would be a judgment call as the viability of the victims would have to be compared to the risk posed by both a short staffed crew operating as IC and a smoke filled structure.

    What we do and "write off' as you put it depends on the manpower and level of training and experience that manpower possess, not the fire.

    Because a room and contents fire, or a kitchen fire, deserve the same standoff-ish tactics as a fully engulfed structure with roof collapse.... Okay that almost makes sense too.....

    Depending 100% on the manpower and the training and experience levels of that manpower.

    If they are trained or experienced enough for the situation, or if the manpower is not adequate for safe operations, I will not commit them interior, even if it is a single room on fire.

    NIST has demonstrated that a single room fire can be effectively attacked and knocked down with an exterior operation.

    Again my tactics are manpower driven, not fire or situation driven.




    You're right, a room located as remote as possible from the room of origin, a room that is untouched by fire, doesn't deserve a search to make sure there's no one in there. Makes sense to me....

    Never said that it didn't deserve a search if there is unknown information about occupancy.

    If I have been told that the occupants are out by a reliable source, the building does not require a search.

    But I did state if the manpower does not exist for safe interior operations, or the manpower on scene does not in my mind have adequate training or experience, the building will not be entered.

    This in my mind is not about the incident, but about the safety of the manpower on scene. The manpower drives the tactics, not the other way around.




    Right, if manpower permits. Which means you'll stand around and look important until your AMA shows up and does all the real work. "Well, we had a room and contents upon arrival, but we had to wait for you to show up, so now the entire second floor is engulfed." Yep, makes perfect sense...

    That means that we will perform exterior firefighting through doors and windows, perform limited door based searches and manage utilities if the manpower on scene does not permit for safe interior operations.

    And if we are operating with limited manpower, that again, will drive the tactics, not the other way around.

    My personnel will go home unhurt, every time.



    Oh, okay. I gotcha. Just show up and watch "nature take it's course." Seems like a logical argument to me... It's not like we're the department they call to come put out the fire or anything..... Oh, wait......

    In some cases yes, but not the case with a structure fire.

    Once again, if less than 4 interior members plus a dedicated IC, exterior operations which NIST studiers have proven are effective and does not drive fire, limited door based searches if we have been told there may be occupants, or possibly, in some cases, entry dependent upon conditions.

    If we have adequate members (4 interior plus an exterior command officer and a pump operator) I have no issues with operating interior.

    Why is this so damn hard to understand?



    Logical argument, valid points. It all makes sense. How can I argue with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Finally you see the light.
    You don't want the light to shine on you because if it does it will expose both you and your vfd for the absolute pathetic FRAUD you are. The most pathetic part is YOUR SO CALLED LEADERSHIP is entirely okay with perpetuating the illusion of your vfd actually being a fire department. He should be ashamed and embarassed by his lack of responsibility in informing the board and the citizens of the lack of volunteers, the lack of interior qualified volunteers, the lack of available officers since ALL of you work out of town, and the possibility of not only no officers responding but no volunteers too. You claim the citizens know all this but bristle at actually announcing it, golly that sounds like you are afraid they might actually really find out and that would be bad for your vfd...

    You love to post studies but only pick and choose the parts that back your outstanding on the front lawn behavior. You love to post statistics, whether you make them up like your latest injury nonsense until you got called on it and actually did research. You see Bobby, studies, research, and articles aren't meant to be used as excuses, they are meant to educate and define better ways to do the job. you pick and choose miniscule parts to defend **** poor recruitment, **** poor leadership, **** poor training that is seemingly voluntary, and all the other nonsense you expouse to defend not doing the core job of a fire department.

    It is all a house of cards built on a windy beach destined to tumble one day and believe me, it will.
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    Bobby, you're reading the NIST information wrong. They advocate a short burst of water to essentially "reset" the fire from pre-flashover back to the growth stage, buying time to do your search and make entry to extinguish the fire, not " dump the whole booster tank and flood the whole f'ing room until the contents are floating". Listen to the FE Podcasts where many of the hosts have spoken to the people who were performing the experiments, you might learn something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToDaRoof View Post
    Bobby, you're reading the NIST information wrong. They advocate a short burst of water to essentially "reset" the fire from pre-flashover back to the growth stage, buying time to do your search and make entry to extinguish the fire, not " dump the whole booster tank and flood the whole f'ing room until the contents are floating". Listen to the FE Podcasts where many of the hosts have spoken to the people who were performing the experiments, you might learn something.
    I fully understand that.

    If we lack the manpower, the AMA engine will provide that.

    As a rule they are less than 2-3 minutes behind or first due engine, so the exterior line will knock down the fire and then reset as needed until the AMA engine arrives and begins interior ops.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    My personnel will go home unhurt, every time.
    And what happens when they don't? What happens when you're the IC at an incident where something happens out of left field that no one could have seen coming, and one of your members gets hurt or killed. What then? Are you telling your personnel and their families that they're going to come home uninjured every time? You can't guarantee that, at all.

    What happens when your overweight, out of shape exterior member collapses from a heart attack? Sure he went home "uninjured" but he's still friggin dead... What then?

    What happens when you do EVERYTHING by your standards, by your mindset, with what you've deemed the appropriate number of personnel, apparatus, hoselines, interior firefighters, exterior firefighters, drivers, officers, etc, and something unexpected happens and someone dies or gets hurt? What then?

    What will you use to backup your claim that everyone of your members goes home uninjured everytime? Or is it only injuries that you're concerned with, and not death?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAFE
    Why is this so damn hard to understand?
    FINALLY, you feel like the rest of us do when we talk to you.
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    You don't get it... The reset does nothing to prevent the fire spread in the rest of the structure, it is to make THAT specific environment more tenable so that you can perform in it immediately. In the 2-3 minutes, you've wasted 50 gallons of water and effectively done nothing if you have't made entry because you're waiting for next due. Using that logic, why not just sit on the ramp in the rig, wait for next due to mark on scene, and then respond? You'd be accomplishing the same objective.
    "I am an aggressive firefighter, and that is not an apology."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully understand that.

    If we lack the manpower, the AMA engine will provide that.

    As a rule they are less than 2-3 minutes behind or first due engine, so the exterior line will knock down the fire and then reset as needed until the AMA engine arrives and begins interior ops.
    Jusssttttt keeeeppppp backpedaling......

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    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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