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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It makes us appreciate how good we do have it today.

    Those steel cylinders sure sucked. Actually they still suck, as that is all that we have on my VFD to this day.
    I think they had it better back in their day.
    I'm wrapped in bunker gear that traps all the heat inside and is far more dangerous than a turnout coat. In the summer months we all overheat, in the winter months the gear doesn't provide much warmth when outside.

    Instead of 20 mins of air I've now got 45 mins. Much better to rotate crews at shorter rather than longer intervals of time.

    Guys in the house talked to each other back then, now everyone's glued to their cell phone and texting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    I think they had it better back in their day.
    I'm wrapped in bunker gear that traps all the heat inside and is far more dangerous than a turnout coat. In the summer months we all overheat, in the winter months the gear doesn't provide much warmth when outside.

    Instead of 20 mins of air I've now got 45 mins. Much better to rotate crews at shorter rather than longer intervals of time.

    Guys in the house talked to each other back then, now everyone's glued to their cell phone and texting.
    I agree with everything but the gear issue you brng up.. I started wearing my bunker pants after a friend got a real nasty burn on his leg after a large ember dropped into his pull up boot.. that was in 1984.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    [QUOTE=Whammer79;1375550]I think they had it better back in their day.
    I'm wrapped in bunker gear that traps all the heat inside and is far more dangerous than a turnout coat. In the summer months we all overheat, in the winter months the gear doesn't provide much warmth when outside.

    Instead of 20 mins of air I've now got 45 mins. Much better to rotate crews at shorter rather than longer intervals of time.

    Guys in the house talked to each other back then, now everyone's glued to their cell phone and texting.[/QUOTE]

    I am a young guy with little time and I really start to feel bad when I see examples of the brotherhood our house has never had. I HATE cellphones, or should I say ANTI-SOCIAL device.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    I think they had it better back in their day.
    I'm wrapped in bunker gear that traps all the heat inside and is far more dangerous than a turnout coat. In the summer months we all overheat, in the winter months the gear doesn't provide much warmth when outside.

    Instead of 20 mins of air I've now got 45 mins. Much better to rotate crews at shorter rather than longer intervals of time.

    Guys in the house talked to each other back then, now everyone's glued to their cell phone and texting.
    I caught that last few years of long coats and 3/4's, first at my college department and then at my next 2 departments. After that is was bunkers.

    I agree, though the tradeoff is better thermal protection.

    And I fully agree that cell phones, and the younger members fixation on playing games endlessly has taken a toll on station camaraderie.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    I know you do, that's what makes you such a pretender. You identify yourself with men who share nothing in common with you.
    Nice shot ... Wrong .... But nice shot anyway.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    I agree with everything but the gear issue you brng up.. I started wearing my bunker pants after a friend got a real nasty burn on his leg after a large ember dropped into his pull up boot.. that was in 1984.
    I agree. Embers down the boot was pretty common. Had it several times and it's not fun. Nozzleman could douse his own leg but if you were backup you just had to go with it.

    Bunker gear is better; that's why we use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice shot ... Wrong .... But nice shot anyway.
    I think it's a balls on accurate assessment...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Never had 3/4 boots. But I have made an attack in a coat, Survivair 9838 with a steel bottle, and my black Ben Davis pants. Kneeling on a hot ember or a 16 penny nail head taught you one thing....don't get on your knees. Also, make sure there's no insulation or other crap in your coat before you tuck that elephant trunk in there...(cough cough cough).
    IAFF

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    Ah the good old days...

    Rubber turn out coat, 3/4 boots, MSA (melt-away) topguard helmet, and the best leather gloves the hardware store had! Our SCBA, all 2 of them, were Scott 1800 psi Pak 1's.

    We finally got Nomex coats, and I bought my own bunker pants, Cairns N5A, hood, and actual firefighting gloves. The funny thing is if you tried to give a new guy the equivalent of the coat I had then today they would scream bloody murder. It was yellow nomex, green nomex needlepunch lined with a neoprene vapor barrier. In other words it was heavy, itchy and didn't breath at all. yet it was night and day over the rubber coat I had originally.

    Parts of the good old days were great, the PPE and SCBA sucked azz!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    I agree with everything but the gear issue you brng up.. I started wearing my bunker pants after a friend got a real nasty burn on his leg after a large ember dropped into his pull up boot.. that was in 1984.
    The first bunker gear we got was by Bristol. It was great stuff, it kept you warm in the winter and you didn't overheat too badly in summer. But technology has moved on and I don't think for the better. You are so insulated you can easily push into temperatures that you should not be pushing into.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to pullups boots, I prefer the bunker gear PANTS. The coat I'm not so thrilled with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    The first bunker gear we got was by Bristol. It was great stuff, it kept you warm in the winter and you didn't overheat too badly in summer. But technology has moved on and I don't think for the better. You are so insulated you can easily push into temperatures that you should not be pushing into.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to pullups boots, I prefer the bunker gear PANTS. The coat I'm not so thrilled with.
    My # 1 POC FD uses bristol and we have for over a decade, well except for a bad one year side trip to Quaker. Love that stuff, light, comfortable and very flexible.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    The first bunker gear we got was by Bristol. It was great stuff, it kept you warm in the winter and you didn't overheat too badly in summer. But technology has moved on and I don't think for the better. You are so insulated you can easily push into temperatures that you should not be pushing into.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to pullups boots, I prefer the bunker gear PANTS. The coat I'm not so thrilled with.
    Encapsulation can cause us to be unaware of true conditions , but for me it is not excuse for going too far. The gear doesn't bring us in; we bring it in. Size-up is everything. Look at the building, look at the fire and the smoke, and communicate inside to outside to roof etc. Know the status of handline(s). Use your TIC if available. Then use your best judgement, erring on the side of caution. KNOWN life hazard of course changes the formula, but if you've decided that the victim is savable then the heat level shouldn't be a problem for gear.
    One thing about the gear is that it only works if you wear all of it and wear it properly. Get sloppy with it and you'll eventually get hurt.
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    Another thing about modern PPE. It allows us to operate in environments that Dennis Smith and the brothers in 82 and 31 would never enter. This is not necessarily a good thing. With airtight construction and renovations, along with modern contents, the fire environment is much hotter and more volatile than it was then. In addition to the things mentioned in my above post it is essential that firefighters have a thorough understanding of modern fire behavior. I urge all to become familiar with the latest research (UL, NIST, etc). Some of the things we thought we knew about firefighting are no longer the most efficient way to fight fires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Another thing about modern PPE. It allows us to operate in environments that Dennis Smith and the brothers in 82 and 31 would never enter. This is not necessarily a good thing. With airtight construction and renovations, along with modern contents, the fire environment is much hotter and more volatile than it was then. In addition to the things mentioned in my above post it is essential that firefighters have a thorough understanding of modern fire behavior. I urge all to become familiar with the latest research (UL, NIST, etc). Some of the things we thought we knew about firefighting are no longer the most efficient way to fight fires.

    SSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... Now you are interjecting science into firefighting.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    no LAla -im thinking he is talking about taking scientific studies and applying them to real world knowledge and experience with a jolt of common sense thrown in. Not parroting something you read sitting in your basement in your underwear wearing a firehouse sub kids plastic helmet. Big difference
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    no LAla -im thinking he is talking about taking scientific studies and applying them to real world knowledge and experience with a jolt of common sense thrown in. Not parroting something you read sitting in your basement in your underwear wearing a firehouse sub kids plastic helmet. Big difference
    Yupppppppppppppers ... That's me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    no LAla -im thinking he is talking about taking scientific studies and applying them to real world knowledge and experience with a jolt of common sense thrown in. Not parroting something you read sitting in your basement in your underwear wearing a firehouse sub kids plastic helmet. Big difference
    I'm no science weenie but I don't fight it either. I've been exposed to the testing and research. They were real fires with realistic contents. The results speak for themselves. If we acknowledge it, accept it and MAKE IT WORK FOR US as opposed to against us we can continue to act agressively to save life and property.

    As slackjaw noted, we should APPLY the science in doing the job, not use it to STOP us from doing the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I'm no science weenie but I don't fight it either. I've been exposed to the testing and research. They were real fires with realistic contents. The results speak for themselves. If we acknowledge it, accept it and MAKE IT WORK FOR US as opposed to against us we can continue to act agressively to save life and property.

    As slackjaw noted, we should APPLY the science in doing the job, not use it to STOP us from doing the job.
    Unless the science tells us that we are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    When the science tells us that the resources, training and/or experience that a department brings to an incident is inadequate for the incident, it damn sure should prevent them from "doing the job" as you phrased it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    The way we operated and what we had to work with back in the 1950's and into the 1980's would make the members coming in now days to re think their career choice.


    No hoods, our necks and ears was the sensor for the heat. 3/4 boots that rarely got pulled up, most of the time they were folded down. 36 inch cotton duck or rubber turn out coats. Red Fire Ball, aka fuel oil driver, gloves were the choice or a regular gauntlet work glove.


    Rear step or side to the trailer riding, plus open cab apparatus was the norm.

    All service filter masks and in some cases SCBA for under the ground work or in a confined space element.

    Leather lungs was a must. Smoke a cigarette after a smoky job to clear the lungs out.

    Cotton jacket hose line, that had to be washed and hung to dry after each use.


    Report from Engine 82, was a good read. The Brothers in the FDNY earned their pay and retirement.

    Members now days, couldn't cut it like the old guys once did.


    There wasn't any room or place for yard breathers.
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    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unless the science tells us that we are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    Or in your VFDs case a rubber chicken.

    When the science tells us that the resources, training and/or experience that a department brings to an incident is inadequate for the incident, it damn sure should prevent them from "doing the job" as you phrased it.

    Blah Blah Blah...And as long as you keep making excuses for **** poor performance, **** poor attendance at drill and calls, your phony baloney two tiered firedfighter system, guys that are never aound, reaons why you can't go interior, and outright lying to your board by keeping them AND your citizens in the dark about your EXTREMELY limited capabilities and the fact the your AMA FD does the interior work for you you have absolutely no understanding of the JOB or the right to sound like you do.
    All of your excuses simply become BS when I can tell a true story of a POORLY publicly funded FD, your budget is 100 times theirs, that fund raisers the vast majority of their operating funds, that is aggressive, does interior firefighting and search, and is proud of everything they have. This is an EXTREMELY rural FD with not a single house in sight of their number 1 station. How do they do it? Maybe you should ask them. Because they make it work every day without excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unless the science tells us that we are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    When the science tells us that the resources, training and/or experience that a department brings to an incident is inadequate for the incident, it damn sure should prevent them from "doing the job" as you phrased it.
    NOTHING should prevent them from "doing the job". I believe that will be defined by the IC (whoever that may be) at any given scene. I do not endorse "bringing a knife to a gunfight". I endorse fighting fires as aggressively as possible without discarding all efforts at safety. It is a balancing act when done properly. Risk CAN and should be managed. Risk CANNOT be eliminated.
    As far as your department and it's policies: I feel it would be unwise and unfair for me to dictate how you should operate from my keyboard 1000 miles away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    The way we operated and what we had to work with back in the 1950's and into the 1980's would make the members coming in now days to re think their career choice.


    No hoods, our necks and ears was the sensor for the heat. 3/4 boots that rarely got pulled up, most of the time they were folded down. 36 inch cotton duck or rubber turn out coats. Red Fire Ball, aka fuel oil driver, gloves were the choice or a regular gauntlet work glove.


    Rear step or side to the trailer riding, plus open cab apparatus was the norm.

    All service filter masks and in some cases SCBA for under the ground work or in a confined space element.

    Leather lungs was a must. Smoke a cigarette after a smoky job to clear the lungs out.

    Cotton jacket hose line, that had to be washed and hung to dry after each use.


    Report from Engine 82, was a good read. The Brothers in the FDNY earned their pay and retirement.

    Members now days, couldn't cut it like the old guys once did.


    There wasn't any room or place for yard breathers.
    I think you are being unfair to the brothers who do the job today. No, we don't do what you did. But you never did what we do. Bunker gear is heavy and cumbersome and hot. On hot days dehydration and overheating set in very rapidly. If you do a bunch of emergency runs before going to work at a fire, you're already behind the eight ball before you even start.
    A room contents fire can go from ignition to free-burning/flashover within about 4 minutes; when you worked it was probably more like 20 minutes. There are no more natural materials (wool, cotton, wood). Fires now burn faster and hotter. There is more smoke and the smoke itself is highly combustible so the "seat" of the fire is actually all around you. The smoke is loaded with carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide so a few breaths without a mask can make you loopy, knock you out, or just plain kill you. You had single pane loosely fitted windows; we have tightly sealed double and triple pane windows. Fires rarely self vent, and when they do they escalate wildly. Gone are the days when you could crawl in under the smoke layer and douse a small fire with the can before it "takes off". It takes off long before we get there. Staffing seems to have gone down vs up so guys do more.
    I believe it's an apples and oranges thing. We do the job differently than you did; that doesn't makes us lesser firefighters. I started my career working with some of the "war years" firefighters. No bunker gear. We had SCBA but didn't necessarily use it. So I've seen a little of what you did. No disrespect intended, but we don't do what you did and you didn't do what we do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    The way we operated and what we had to work with back in the 1950's and into the 1980's would make the members coming in now days to re think their career choice.


    No hoods, our necks and ears was the sensor for the heat. 3/4 boots that rarely got pulled up, most of the time they were folded down. 36 inch cotton duck or rubber turn out coats. Red Fire Ball, aka fuel oil driver, gloves were the choice or a regular gauntlet work glove.


    Rear step or side to the trailer riding, plus open cab apparatus was the norm.

    All service filter masks and in some cases SCBA for under the ground work or in a confined space element.

    Leather lungs was a must. Smoke a cigarette after a smoky job to clear the lungs out.

    Cotton jacket hose line, that had to be washed and hung to dry after each use.


    Report from Engine 82, was a good read. The Brothers in the FDNY earned their pay and retirement.

    Members now days, couldn't cut it like the old guys once did.


    There wasn't any room or place for yard breathers.
    Of course, many of those brave men didn't enjoy very many years of retirement.....

    The advantage of the new stuff is that when things go sour, we can better survive what would undoubtebly kill those guys. Back then, a flashover was guaranteed death. And with SCBA, we're not dying little by little on every fire.

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    I read articles by a guy who grew up in the fifties and he is convinced that the fifties was the only good time to be a kid. Hell, I did pretty well in the eighties and my kids are doing well in the teens. I can however appreciate some of the aspects of being around in the olden years. I don't believe that there exists a brotherhood among the young firefighters in my area that once was. We are loosing some of the camaraderie and I think it is all them dad gum smartphones fault!
    I can appreciate the way things were done in the day, I also appreciate the technology I have now. But to hear the old guys talk about brotherhood makes me sad.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I think you are being unfair to the brothers who do the job today. No, we don't do what you did. But you never did what we do. Bunker gear is heavy and cumbersome and hot. On hot days dehydration and overheating set in very rapidly. If you do a bunch of emergency runs before going to work at a fire, you're already behind the eight ball before you even start.
    A room contents fire can go from ignition to free-burning/flashover within about 4 minutes; when you worked it was probably more like 20 minutes. There are no more natural materials (wool, cotton, wood). Fires now burn faster and hotter. There is more smoke and the smoke itself is highly combustible so the "seat" of the fire is actually all around you. The smoke is loaded with carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide so a few breaths without a mask can make you loopy, knock you out, or just plain kill you. You had single pane loosely fitted windows; we have tightly sealed double and triple pane windows. Fires rarely self vent, and when they do they escalate wildly. Gone are the days when you could crawl in under the smoke layer and douse a small fire with the can before it "takes off". It takes off long before we get there. Staffing seems to have gone down vs up so guys do more.
    I believe it's an apples and oranges thing. We do the job differently than you did; that doesn't makes us lesser firefighters. I started my career working with some of the "war years" firefighters. No bunker gear. We had SCBA but didn't necessarily use it. So I've seen a little of what you did. No disrespect intended, but we don't do what you did and you didn't do what we do.


    Being unfair? I don't think so. They guys back then were mostly veterans from World War 2 or Korea, later from Vietnam. They used and worked with what the department had at that time. It was the best that was available.

    As years progressed and department upgraded, new type of turnout gear were designed and procured. Helmets have changed so much in style, designs and composition as well. Breathing apparatus is another big change. Once having the All Service, Chemox and old SCBA's, that was all they was had. Yes the newer long, lighter breathers are so much better. The turnout gear newer styles are heavier but give the members a better chance of not being injured.


    When I retired about 8 years ago we had at that time the latest and greatest of PPE that funds could buy. I for one am glad that the members coning on board now have the best gear that can be issued.

    I am familiar with the styles and type of PPE on the street now days.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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