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Thread: Antique Pierce Arrow just for fun

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    Default Antique Pierce Arrow just for fun

    I have a 1982 Pierce Arrow that is not in service. The truck was just retired from active use and is fully functional. I've never run the pumps and am slowly learning about how that process works.

    The truck has a 1000 gallon water tank and a 1,250 GPM Waterous pump.

    I was told by a firefighter that it would not be possible to pump water at low pressure "for fun" because the pump is designed to have hydrant support while in use and that the water tank is simply to maintain prime.

    Is this true? I can't shoot some water at low pressure without worrying about burning up the pump?

    I can fill the water tank with a garden hose but connecting to a hydrant or drafting from a stream is not an option.

    Thanks for any input!


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    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    I sure as heck whoever that firefighter is doesn't have driver or engineer in their title.

    You can pump all the water you want from the on-board tank...well, up to about 500GPM, since that's pretty much what the tank-to-pump valve is generally limited to. You stand a chance of burning the pump up by leaving it in gear for a long amount of time with no water circulating through it.

    Do you have hose on the truck? How about nozzles? If so, do you have any specifics on those, such as make, model, size, etc?
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    Thanks for the advice, BoxAlarm.

    The truck does have hose but I think I might need to buy some. I believe the crosslays are the narrowest hoses at about 1.5" in diameter. Would those be the safest to learn with? I assume they are easier to handle than the larger hoses that connect to the sides of the truck.

    I don't have nozzles - I need to buy one. Recommendation?

    The truck also has a deck (deluge?) gun that does have a long tapered nozzle.

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    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    As someone who doesn't have any formal training, I'd suggest you get a couple of sections of used 1.5" hose. This will provide plenty of water that can be pumped at a safe pressure.

    As for the nozzle, I'd suggest a smooth bore nozzle with a 7/8" tip on it. Less moving parts, less expensive, and easy to operate.

    You might check with your local SPAAMFAA chapter to see if anyone in your area as some hoses and/or nozzles they're willing to part with for cheap.

    Once you have some of these items, we can give you some basic principals and safety guidelines to follow.

    Also, you CAN use the deck/deluge gun, BUT - you'll discharge all of your water in a short amount of time, you can cause property and/or personal injury with it, and if you've never used one before, you'll have a hard time judging how far the stream will go (a couple of hundred feet wouldn't be unrealistic).
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    Thanks, I'll check with SPAAMFAA and will check back here when I have the hoses and nozzle for some tips.

    Thanks!

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    uogecko: I am pretty sure you and I have conversed on here before about the truck.

    1. Whoever gave you that information about the pump is a moron and sounds like he wouldn't know a fire pump from a gasoline pump to a morphine pump. I strongly encourage you NOT to seek his advice again.

    2. The truck is designed as a pumper-tanker with the intent to have a little bit more capacity than the average "city" pumper (who usually carry 500-750 gallons.) However Box is correct, the tank-to-pump valve will limit how much you can flow per minute.

    3. As I stated to you before, I cannot stress enough the need for you to get someone who is familiar with fire department pumpers to show you the basics of your rig before you hurt someone, yourself, or damage your truck to the tune of an expensive repair. AND NOT THE AFOREMENTIONED MORON.

    4. SPAAMFAA is a great resource to find used equipment, as are a bunch of facebook groups dedicated to antique apparatus, if you are on facebook please PM me here and I will guide you into these facebook groups.
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    Thanks FWDbuff, your post made me laugh. I'll PM ya.

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    If you're going to use the truck to spray kiddos and things of that sort I would find a combo nozzle. Momma's tend to get mad when you drill their baby with a smooth bore.

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    I bet they do!

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    I'm having trouble sourcing used fire - cross lay hoses and nozzles for playing around. Any ideas? If i have to buy it new, where should I get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uogecko View Post
    I'm having trouble sourcing used fire - cross lay hoses and nozzles for playing around. Any ideas? If i have to buy it new, where should I get it?


    Govdeals. Ebay. Simple is best.

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    Thanks - eBay looks like it has lots of hose. I measured the crosslay pump fittings (see attached photo). Originally I thought I'd need 1 1/2" hose but it looks like the fittings are larger. Based on this photo, the outside dimension looks like 2". Does that mean I need 2" hose? What is the standard length for crossays?

    Also, do I need to worry about getting a specific type of threading to make sure I can connect the hose to this outlet?

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    BoxAlarm187, I'm ready to start understanding the basics of pumping. See attached panel photo.

    I don't yet have crosslay hose to play with so I've been experimenting with the deck/deluge gun. Is the process for spraying through the deck gun different than through hose? Remember this is just for fun, not for fighting fire.

    Here are the steps I've been doing:

    1) Truck in neutral
    2) Open tank fill & recirculating valve (not really sure what this does)
    3) Open tank discharge valve
    4) Pull primer handle until water starts pooling under truck (I believe this fills the pump with water until it hits some sort of overflow indicating it's full - I can usually hear a motor kick on for a couple moments)
    5) Shift from drive to pump (engage pump)
    6) Shirt from neutral to drive
    7) Open Deluge Gun Discharge
    8) Turn relief valve off (I really don't understand what this does)
    9) Increase engine RPM to about 1500 and water sprays

    10) Reduce RPM to minium and water stops spraying from deluge gun
    11) Turn on relief valve (again, not sure why or what this is doing)
    12) Close deluge gun valve
    13) Shift truck to neutral
    14) Disengage pump (shift from pump to drive)
    15) Close tank discharge valve
    16) Close tank fill & recirculating value

    17) Should I open drain valves for pump and deluge gun or is it okay to keep water in them (in warm weather)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uogecko View Post
    Thanks - eBay looks like it has lots of hose. I measured the crosslay pump fittings (see attached photo). Originally I thought I'd need 1 1/2" hose but it looks like the fittings are larger. Based on this photo, the outside dimension looks like 2". Does that mean I need 2" hose? What is the standard length for crossays?

    Measure the opening not the outside diameter. The size of the opening is the size of the discharge. If the opening is 1 1/2 inches then you can use 1 1/2, 1 3/4, or 2 inch hose as long as they all have 1 1/2 inch couplings.

    The additional question you need to ask is are those threads National Standard thread or some local thread in a location that doesn't use NST threaded couplings. Are you acquainted with anyone on the local fire department? If so ask one of them if you can borrow a length of hose or a nozzle to check the threads before you buy hose that won't fit the couplings.


    Also, do I need to worry about getting a specific type of threading to make sure I can connect the hose to this outlet?

    See my comments above.

    Attachment 23000
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    Quote Originally Posted by uogecko View Post
    BoxAlarm187, I'm ready to start understanding the basics of pumping. See attached panel photo.

    I don't yet have crosslay hose to play with so I've been experimenting with the deck/deluge gun. Is the process for spraying through the deck gun different than through hose? Remember this is just for fun, not for fighting fire.

    Here are the steps I've been doing:

    1) Truck in neutral
    2) Open tank fill & recirculating valve (not really sure what this does)
    3) Open tank discharge valve
    4) Pull primer handle until water starts pooling under truck (I believe this fills the pump with water until it hits some sort of overflow indicating it's full - I can usually hear a motor kick on for a couple moments)
    5) Shift from drive to pump (engage pump)
    6) Shirt from neutral to drive
    7) Open Deluge Gun Discharge
    8) Turn relief valve off (I really don't understand what this does)
    9) Increase engine RPM to about 1500 and water sprays

    10) Reduce RPM to minium and water stops spraying from deluge gun
    11) Turn on relief valve (again, not sure why or what this is doing)
    12) Close deluge gun valve
    13) Shift truck to neutral
    14) Disengage pump (shift from pump to drive)
    15) Close tank discharge valve
    16) Close tank fill & recirculating value

    17) Should I open drain valves for pump and deluge gun or is it okay to keep water in them (in warm weather)?

    Attachment 23001
    Okay let's start over.

    1) Truck in neutral, parking brake on.
    2) Place truck in pump gear, transmission in drive.
    3) Open the tank to pump valve to get water to the pump.
    4) Increase the RPMs on the engine to about 1200 rpms
    5) Pull the primer. What this does is remove the air from the pump allowing water to flow into the pump and be discharged.
    6) Once the discharge gauge shows pressure throttle up a little more to maintain prime.
    7) Open the discharge valve to the deluge gun and increase the RPMs to get a pump pressure of about 100 psi for a smooth bore nozzle and 120 for a fog nozzle.
    8) Set the relief valve. What the relief valve does is to prevent an over pressure surge by dumping water and pressure. When ever you pump the relief valve should be used to prevent inury. Turn the adjuster handle all the way to the increase side, turn the relief valve on, turn the adjuster handle to the decrease side until the indicator light says open, turn back to the increase side until the light just goes off. Now the relief valve is set.
    9) it is not necessary to open the tank fill/recirculation line unless you are not actually discharging water, OR you are using an external water source to fill the tank while pumping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    1) Truck in neutral, parking brake on.
    2) Place truck in pump gear, transmission in drive.
    3) Open the tank to pump valve to get water to the pump.
    4) Increase the RPMs on the engine to about 1200 rpms
    5) Pull the primer. What this does is remove the air from the pump allowing water to flow into the pump and be discharged.
    6) Once the discharge gauge shows pressure throttle up a little more to maintain prime.
    7) Open the discharge valve to the deluge gun and increase the RPMs to get a pump pressure of about 100 psi for a smooth bore nozzle and 120 for a fog nozzle.
    8) Set the relief valve. What the relief valve does is to prevent an over pressure surge by dumping water and pressure. When ever you pump the relief valve should be used to prevent inury. Turn the adjuster handle all the way to the increase side, turn the relief valve on, turn the adjuster handle to the decrease side until the indicator light says open, turn back to the increase side until the light just goes off. Now the relief valve is set.
    9) it is not necessary to open the tank fill/recirculation line unless you are not actually discharging water, OR you are using an external water source to fill the tank while pumping.

    So you have the pump running before there is any water in it? Isn't that problematic?

    So should I always leave the relief valve in the ON position (as it is in the attached photo)? Why would I ever turn it off? This relief valve is very confusing to me.

    You said that the relief valve can prevent injury when an over pressure surge occurs. What could potentially happen in that case?

    Is the process of pumping to a crosslay hose any different than the deluge gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uogecko View Post
    So you have the pump running before there is any water in it? Isn't that problematic?

    So should I always leave the relief valve in the ON position (as it is in the attached photo)? Why would I ever turn it off? This relief valve is very confusing to me.

    You said that the relief valve can prevent injury when an over pressure surge occurs. What could potentially happen in that case?

    Is the process of pumping to a crosslay hose any different than the deluge gun?

    Attachment 23003
    Some things are becoming quite clear here.

    1. You need to acquire a pump operation textbook that includes the physics involved. You should have already had much of the physics when you were in high school. A good textbook will show the application of high school physics to pumping water. But you need an understanding of the physics in order to understand your pump.

    2. You need to contact Waterous Co. service department at 651 450 5200. Have the serial number of the pump and the serial number of the transfer case when you call. Ask for a service manual for your pump. They will send you one that is specific to your pump serial number. Info on the primer, the relief valve, transfer valve (assuming it's a two stage pump), discharge valves, etc. will be included.

    It is my understanding that you are not a member of a fire department. Nonetheless, it's quite clear that some pump school would be most useful to you. You should scout around an see if some school will let you buy your way in to a pump class.

    Now with respect to your priming system: Years ago pumps were primed while stationary. This is not the case today. The pump primes from the center of the impeller and is done while the pump is turning.

    Your relief valve, from the operator's standpoint, is quite simple. The big knob is used to adjust the pump discharge pressure at which you want it to open. The smaller On/Off valve allows you to take the relief valve out of action. Behind the knurled knob is a screen that needs to be removed and cleaned periodically. Leaving the relief valve in the on position is an acceptable practice in most cases.

    The relief valve's purpose is, as has been said, to prevent pressure surges. If you are flowing water through several lines, and one of them is suddenly shut down, the pump pressure will just as suddenly increase. That increase will appear at the other line being flowed and can cause the personnel operatintg that other line to lose control of it.

    If only one line is in operation, especially a large line or a deluge gun, and it is suddenly shut down, a large sudden pressure increase known as a water hammer can occur and can result in catastrophic failure of hose lines and parts, up to and including the pump castings.

    If the relief valve is properly set and is functioning correctly, the pressure surge causes the relief valve to open and divert the excess water and pressure from the discharge side of the pump harmlessly into the intake side.

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    Thanks, this is really helpful!

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