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Thread: To grab a hydrant or not

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Our problem is that it is kind of a free for all as to who gets to sit where. We have a designated hydrant seat and it is always the last to get filled. Another problem was the driver/pump operator. Any old volunteer could learn to drive the engine, but would not learn how to engineer the engine. So there was always a Chinese fire drill at the scene. The Chief got ****ed and said who ever drives the truck sure as hell better be able to run the pump. I always sit in the hydrant seat because I am usually the last to the station. It is frustrating because someone who wont go interior usually wont sit in the hydrant seat, forcing me to do it.
    Should I suggest to the officers that they make a rule that less capable FFs sit in the hydrant seat? I like the idea.

    What does who sits wear have to do with it. The guy in the officers seat say hey john wrap the hydrant. Regardless of where the hellhe is sitting if you have a guy that only does outside jobs guess what he is taking the hydrant while the interior guys go in and be real firemen. It that simple. I understand in a planned enviroment where all personnel have the same training assigned seat to job functions. For example John is the ov man for the day he sits here. Frank has the can he sits here. But why do it when you have different personnel and training levels. What happens if the non interior guy sits in the nozzle seat?


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Should I suggest to the officers that they make a rule that less capable FFs sit in the hydrant seat? I like the idea.
    Having assigned seating positions should not make a difference in the Officers and Senior Members knowing the training/limits and capabilities of members- they SHOULD. And if the hydrant seat is left empty, he/she turns around from the right front seat and says "Hey YOU! You tap the plug." (again it should be done without question.)

    As for the drivers not knowing how to pump- that is absolutely one of the most asenine things I have ever had the displeasure to read- WTF kind of nut farm do you belong to??? Around here you dont drive unless you demonstrate operating the rig in all aspects in an efficient and orderly military manner.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Having assigned seating positions should not make a difference in the Officers and Senior Members knowing the training/limits and capabilities of members- they SHOULD. And if the hydrant seat is left empty, he/she turns around from the right front seat and says "Hey YOU! You tap the plug." (again it should be done without question.)

    As for the drivers not knowing how to pump- that is absolutely one of the most asenine things I have ever had the displeasure to read- WTF kind of nut farm do you belong to??? Around here you dont drive unless you demonstrate operating the rig in all aspects in an efficient and orderly military manner.
    I like all of the suggestions. For some reason if you sit in the hydrant seat, you are the hydrant man. I will pass on the idea of the officer paying more attention and making an appropriate call as to capabilities of the people riding in the jump seats. That makes a lot of sense.

    Like I said earlier it was/is kind of a free for all when running towards the engine. However, the driver not being able to pump is a problem that seems to have been addressed.
    Some of the members would rather look cool, and it looks cool when you drive the truck.

    Thanks for the discussion guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    The hydrants that work are three hundred yards part and the engines carry 500 gallons. I would say that more often than not, an officer would be on the engine capable of making the call, but then again maybe not. The main issue for us seems to be training. We have firefighters that should sit in the hydrant seat but will not because they would have to stay there until the engineer calls for water. They will not go interior but wont grab the hydrant either, preferring to put on a scba and stay in the yard. So one of our four interior guys has to grab a hydrant, wait for the engineer, and then run back to join the interior crew, which may be just him and another person. So yeah, it is all pretty slow, or at least seams slow. I would prefer yard breathers grab hydrants but I guess it is not glamorous enough.
    Sounds like it's time to either get some people properly trained or get rid of them.
    FyredUp likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    We have firefighters that should sit in the hydrant seat but will not because they would have to stay there until the engineer calls for water.

    They will not go interior but wont grab the hydrant either, preferring to put on a scba and stay in the yard.

    So one of our four interior guys has to grab a hydrant, wait for the engineer, and then run back to join the interior crew, which may be just him and another person.
    Dude......No offense, but what the hell kind of a goat fcuk fest is this place? Sounds like your chief and each and every one of his officers needs to be kicked in the nuts until they spit blood, and then 20 more times for good measure.
    FyredUp likes this.
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    Originally Posted by conrad427
    We have firefighters that should sit in the hydrant seat but will not because they would have to stay there until the engineer calls for water.

    They will not go interior but wont grab the hydrant either, preferring to put on a scba and stay in the yard.

    So one of our four interior guys has to grab a hydrant, wait for the engineer, and then run back to join the interior crew, which may be just him and another person.
    This is precisely the reason why a firefighter should be capable of doing every task required of the job, not exterior only/driver only/whatever position and title some people and FD's give to those who can't go inside.
    FyredUp and rm1524 like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Originally Posted by conrad427


    This is precisely the reason why a firefighter should be capable of doing every task required of the job, not exterior only/driver only/whatever position and title some people and FD's give to those who can't go inside.
    EXACTLY! Then there is no pain in the azz who is, or who can, do this job at an incident.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    The main issue for us seems to be training. We have firefighters that should sit in the hydrant seat but will not because they would have to stay there until the engineer calls for water. They will not go interior but wont grab the hydrant either, preferring to put on a scba and stay in the yard.
    Sounds more like discipline issue than a training issue. If you have people who aren't capable or wont' go in, someone needs to tell them what their tasks are. Make the person in the right front seat assign the hydrant man duty rather than a seating assignment that's first come first self-serve.

    We do exactly what you're asking about: on most PD's we stretch of the tank unless conditions indicate otherwise. For commercial jobs the "rule" is to lay in. These rules are made to be broken when the officer has a good reason, and followed in the absence of such factors. This is all predicated on our poor hydrant spacing, limited first due crew size and carrying 750 gallons of water. It works well when your officers understand the rules and understand their job. With regularly spaced hydrants and only 500 gallons I'd personally be erring toward laying the line and almost surely if the next due crew was more than 5 minutes out.

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    Sounds like there is a much bigger problem within your department. I'm not familiar with the very small departments that some of you work for (vollie or paid). I realize there are times where it is a challenge to get enough people with enough training. What I don't understand is treating the fire service like a game of musical chairs or a free for all. You NEED uniform operational policies that address these types of things. You NEED a ranking officer on scene ASAP whose orders WILL be followed. I believe members should either be in or out; complete all of the required training to become FIREFIGHTERS or find a different "club" to join. A small amount of support personnel is fine but they should not outnumber the firefighters on scene. Driving a pumper and being unable to operate pumps is not a good scenario, to say the least. As for members who are "unwilling" to perform a certain task, they should be cordially invited to hit the bricks.
    I think you and some like minded members need to start making a push within your department for some positive change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Sounds like there is a much bigger problem within your department. I'm not familiar with the very small departments that some of you work for (vollie or paid). I realize there are times where it is a challenge to get enough people with enough training. What I don't understand is treating the fire service like a game of musical chairs or a free for all. You NEED uniform operational policies that address these types of things. You NEED a ranking officer on scene ASAP whose orders WILL be followed. I believe members should either be in or out; complete all of the required training to become FIREFIGHTERS or find a different "club" to join. A small amount of support personnel is fine but they should not outnumber the firefighters on scene. Driving a pumper and being unable to operate pumps is not a good scenario, to say the least. As for members who are "unwilling" to perform a certain task, they should be cordially invited to hit the bricks.
    I think you and some like minded members need to start making a push within your department for some positive change.
    agreed ------------
    ?

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    While I agree with most of the comments, I am not sure the Chief needs to be kicked in the nuts!
    I am starting to get a lot of support from some of the firefighters, including the Chief. One HUGE problem is that the Captains are elected, not appointed. So, as horrible as it sounds, popularity is a factor. Discipline is a problem when the inmates run the asylum. Things are starting to get better now that the new Chief got his position changed to an appointed one, not elected. I hate all the democracy that we have and I think it is no good for the community.
    Anyway, I appreciate all of the discussion. I am trying to make changes but it is a slow process. I can appreciate the way most of you do business, in my paid gig we do things the right way so I am trying to implement those practices in my VFD.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
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    the first thing you need to do is set standards for officers -written/hands on test -and factor in attendance and training
    ?

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    One pet peeve of mine is that I HATE the idea that officers are elected in ANY department. They should be appointed by chief(s) or board or who or whatever actually runs the department. It should be based on proven knowledge, leadership ability and experience. The most senior or most popular firefighter should not automatically be elected or appointed to officer role. Officers sometimes have to make difficult and/or unpopular decisions. They should not have to worry about how that decision will affect the next election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    One pet peeve of mine is that I HATE the idea that officers are elected in ANY department. They should be appointed by chief(s) or board or who or whatever actually runs the department. It should be based on proven knowledge, leadership ability and experience. The most senior or most popular firefighter should not automatically be elected or appointed to officer role. Officers sometimes have to make difficult and/or unpopular decisions. They should not have to worry about how that decision will affect the next election.
    Kinda hard to do when the 23 year old chief is put there the same way.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    One pet peeve of mine is that I HATE the idea that officers are elected in ANY department. They should be appointed by chief(s) or board or who or whatever actually runs the department. It should be based on proven knowledge, leadership ability and experience. The most senior or most popular firefighter should not automatically be elected or appointed to officer role. Officers sometimes have to make difficult and/or unpopular decisions. They should not have to worry about how that decision will affect the next election.
    So you believe the Chief should be allowed to appoint all the officers? So he can pick his friends and those that agree only with him? or those that suck up to a Board?

    Simple thing....whether elected/appointed/whatever.....set standards and duties for the positions and then follow those standards/duties. Won't matter if elected/appointed/whatever.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So you believe the Chief should be allowed to appoint all the officers? So he can pick his friends and those that agree only with him? or those that suck up to a Board?

    Simple thing....whether elected/appointed/whatever.....set standards and duties for the positions and then follow those standards/duties. Won't matter if elected/appointed/whatever.
    I think you should re-read my post. You've missed pretty much every point I made. But let me make it easy for you:

    1) Yes, I believe a REAL chief should be allowed to promote/appoint officers. Who better than a chief and his staff to do that? I say a REAL chief because only a pretender would base promotion on suck-ups or friendships.

    2) Yes, standards and duties should be set and followed.

    3) If you are electing officers you are saying that every member of the department has the training, background, technical expertise and judgement to make the decision as to who should be officers. This is just not the case.

    4) Big department or small, paid or vollie, it doesn't matter; performing the role of fire officer is an important and difficult thing to do and should not be taken lightly or turned into a popularity contest.

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    Default Water????

    I thought the discussion was on hitting a hydrant on the way in????? NEVER pass up water when heading to a fire...especially if your not sure of another Engine will respond.....NEVER
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I think you should re-read my post. You've missed pretty much every point I made. But let me make it easy for you:

    1) Yes, I believe a REAL chief should be allowed to promote/appoint officers. Who better than a chief and his staff to do that? I say a REAL chief because only a pretender would base promotion on suck-ups or friendships.

    2) Yes, standards and duties should be set and followed.

    3) If you are electing officers you are saying that every member of the department has the training, background, technical expertise and judgement to make the decision as to who should be officers. This is just not the case.

    4) Big department or small, paid or vollie, it doesn't matter; performing the role of fire officer is an important and difficult thing to do and should not be taken lightly or turned into a popularity contest.
    Where does this REAL chief and staff come from that are going to promote/appoint officers?

    Again, in a small volunteer department...how is this REAL chief appointed? By a Mayor and Council who know nothing of firefighting? or would it make more sense that the firefighters that the Chief is going to lead have a say in who leads them?

    Not missing your points at all. Just seeing them from the very small department side.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    I thought the discussion was on hitting a hydrant on the way in????? NEVER pass up water when heading to a fire...especially if your not sure of another Engine will respond.....NEVER
    The only time "never" should be used is to say "the words never and always should NEVER be spoken when discussing the fd".

  20. #40
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    Never pass a hydrant in the block the fire is in. Our policy was to get the hydrant going in, to the address.

    I have taken drivers off because of not knowing the district, hydrants and not being able to operate the pump.
    JayDudley likes this.
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