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Thread: To grab a hydrant or not

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitguy51 View Post
    All our ponds are 500' apart and pressurized.
    Discussions about putting in municipal water here some years ago died on the price tag.

    Most residents weren't interested in paying over $600 a year for something they get out of their wells for for cost of the electricity to run the pump. The biggest killer was a statement by one of the engineers during the town meeting on the topic - that the price had been set by some state flunky in Albany and even if we managed to find money (grant, etc) from another source, one of the existing planned sources would dry up. I might add that some $400 of that was debt service. I suspect that a lower cost would have been more likely to gain approval.

    Even that system only covered the hamlet (100 houses, 300 people) and the route of the waterline from another municipal system. All of the side roads would still be tanker operations. Oh, and the system was only designed for 500GPM...
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    We have been considering changing our sog's to give the first arriving engine more leeway in regards to grabbing a hydrant. Currently we always grab one, every time. There have been some fires lately that we would have lessened the damage to the home if we could have just used tank water. I know this sounds ridiculous to some but we don't have a guarantee that another engine will lay us a line. Sometimes we get our other engine to respond but sometimes not and our closest mutual aid is always at least thirty mins. out. So if we don't grab one, we may have to hand lay later. This would be left up to the first arriving officer as he does a window size up upon arriving.

    We know a quick knock down works, but under our circumstances do you guys think it is worth the risk? Our should we quit complaining and just get better at grabbing a hydrant?
    This is why I am a firm believer in laying out, not in. Coincidently, it is also the reason that every fire engine I know of carries between 500 and 1500 gallons of water. You can make a hell of a dent or certainly effect the rescue of a viable victim with tank water.

    In addition, regardless of how good you get at wrapping a hydrant and laying in, it will significantly delay the amount of time it takes to put water on the fire.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    This is why I am a firm believer in laying out, not in. Coincidently, it is also the reason that every fire engine I know of carries between 500 and 1500 gallons of water. You can make a hell of a dent or certainly effect the rescue of a viable victim with tank water.

    In addition, regardless of how good you get at wrapping a hydrant and laying in, it will significantly delay the amount of time it takes to put water on the fire.
    The amount of time it takes for one member to dismount and simply wrap the hydrant is inconsequential with the time needed to hand lay.

    Yes, it does delay fire operations by 30-45 seconds, but given the consequences of running out of water, IMO it's a pretty fair trade off if you are in a situation where the response of a second engine or hose cart to lay in is unknown or uncertain.
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    30-45 seconds in my book is a long time when you apply it to every operation that must occur on the fire ground - especially the primary search and rescue if needed.

    If tank water will allow you to rescue a still viable victim and you end up running out of water, I say job well done.

    If there is no rescue, tank water may buy you the time needed to establish the supply without additional damage to the structure.

    Lastly. Going to the fire allows you to make an informed decision as to whether you can attack with with tank water and be successful or if you need to reverse lay to establish a supply line without allowing the fire to go unchecked when you are down the street guessing what you think you might need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    30-45 seconds in my book is a long time when you apply it to every operation that must occur on the fire ground - especially the primary search and rescue if needed.

    If tank water will allow you to rescue a still viable victim and you end up running out of water, I say job well done.

    If there is no rescue, tank water may buy you the time needed to establish the supply without additional damage to the structure.

    Lastly. Going to the fire allows you to make an informed decision as to whether you can attack with with tank water and be successful or if you need to reverse lay to establish a supply line without allowing the fire to go unchecked when you are down the street guessing what you think you might need.

    Agree, to an extent.

    The OP stated that he had a 500g tank, which isn't very much water, and that it could be up to 30 minutes until another engine arrived.

    To me those are 2 major issues that scream lay in on just about anything with smoke showing.

    1000g tank, not so much, but 500g doesn't buy much time for handjacking hose while conducting fire attack with more than likely a pretty small crew.

    Again, to me, it's worth the time to at least wrap and lay a line every time in. If need be, don't charge it initially but have it on the ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Agree, to an extent.

    The OP stated that he had a 500g tank, which isn't very much water, and that it could be up to 30 minutes until another engine arrived.

    To me those are 2 major issues that scream lay in on just about anything with smoke showing.

    1000g tank, not so much, but 500g doesn't buy much time for handjacking hose while conducting fire attack with more than likely a pretty small crew.

    Again, to me, it's worth the time to at least wrap and lay a line every time in. If need be, don't charge it initially but have it on the ground.
    I agree about the 500 gal tank. I would much prefer 1000. I'm actually surprised that any smaller, rural department would opt for the smaller tank, assuming there was a choice.

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    We have a larger tank on our rural engine. We are very well hydranted in our town so when we got our
    '83 Grumman several years ago we were more concerned about price. It replaced a '68 IH/Howe that is a third out engine now, that replaced a '54 Ford.

    Some of the officers have suggested at times to respond with one or two and darken the fire on tank water if no one else shows up after the second page. I cant say that I disagree with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    We have a larger tank on our rural engine. We are very well hydranted in our town so when we got our
    '83 Grumman several years ago we were more concerned about price. It replaced a '68 IH/Howe that is a third out engine now, that replaced a '54 Ford.

    Some of the officers have suggested at times to respond with one or two and darken the fire on tank water if no one else shows up after the second page. I cant say that I disagree with that.
    I guess I am more of a "ducks in a row" man before beginning fire attack, and at least having my supply line on the ground, if possible, is one of those "ducks".

    And yes, I am generally willing to sacrifice 30-45 seconds of burn time to get that supply line laid if I have any fire condition at all, especially if I don't have the manpower to stretch that line, such as at my VFD.

    As a rule, my combo department does not lay in but we will generally have 2-3 additional engines with 4" on scene in under 3 minutes from the arrival of the attack engine.

    The same was true in my previous VFD where at night we easily get three or 4 engines responding plus an AMA engine or two. During the day I would get a couple on the air from my own department plus 2-3 from the AMA response.

    Rural department not so much, but only about 1% of our district is covered by hydrants.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-23-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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