Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 14 of 61 FirstFirst ... 41112131415161724 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 280 of 1213
Like Tree82Likes

Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #261
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which neither you nor Zimmerman has stated what constituted "suspicious" activity. You must hate America. The rest of us believe in the concept of innocent till proven guilty. It's a bulwark of the US criminal justice system.
    One could make the argument that "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is little more than lip service and a nice slogan for our criminal justice system.

    The reality is that the system is technically based on the presumption of guilt, not innocence. If it wasn't, then the police would never arrest anybody until after the person is found guilty at trial since the basis for an arrest is in fact the presumption that the person is guilty of committing a crime of some sorts. Without that presumption of guilt, there'd be no reasonable basis for detainment and/or incarceration pending a preliminary hearing.


  2. #262
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You believe in innocent until proven guilty, but also guilty regardless of proven innocence? While they're not mutually exclusive, it's a little over the top to toss that out there.
    Not guilty does not necessarily mean innocent. It can mean a lack of a proponderence of the evidence was shown to prove guilt, or it can mean, as in the OJ trial, an incredibly poor job was done by the prosecution.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  3. #263
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not guilty does not necessarily mean innocent. It can mean a lack of a proponderence of the evidence was shown to prove guilt, or it can mean, as in the OJ trial, an incredibly poor job was done by the prosecution.
    You are correct with the first sentence, however, "preponderence of the evidence" is the standard in a civil trial. In a criminal trial, it is "proof beyond reasonable doubt".

  4. #264
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Your whole premise is built on the speculation that Martin started the physical confrontation and you simply can wish it all you want, but you can't prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The best part about this is everything you have stated as proof is pure specualtion on your part...
    Here's a scenario that is just as likely. Martin noticed a creepy looking guy following him. Realizing he was near his house he doubled back to see if the creepy looking guy was still following him. Lo and behold the creepy guy was outside his vehicle. Martin approached the creepy (who we now know was Zimmerman) and said, "why the eff are you following me cracker?" Whereupon Zimmerman tried to physically detain until the cops arrived (knowing they were on their way). Martin realized this person had no authority to detain him and didn't like being physically restrained by a fat tub of goo proceeded to resist (which was his right) to the point where he was able to gain the upper hand and started beating the crap out of him. Zimmerman realizing he was a fat piece of c*** and that this scrawny little teen was working him over managed to gain access to the handgun he was carrying and shot him. Pleading that he was in fear for his life. When in reality he was afraid that folks would realize he was getting his *** kicked by someone almost half his size.

    Now this fat of piece of goo goes on Sean Hannity's program saying it was God's will that he shot Martin. What an effing pile. If there is a God I doubt it wants to be the justification for this.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-24-2013 at 03:15 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #265
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You believe in innocent until proven guilty, but also guilty regardless of proven innocence? While they're not mutually exclusive, it's a little over the top to toss that out there.
    Yes I do. Do you? Do you also believe O.J. was innocent of murdering his wife and her friend and that President Clinton was innocent of perjury?

    See how this works?

    The jury spoke in both of those cases, right?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #266
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    One could make the argument that "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is little more than lip service and a nice slogan for our criminal justice system.

    The reality is that the system is technically based on the presumption of guilt, not innocence. If it wasn't, then the police would never arrest anybody until after the person is found guilty at trial since the basis for an arrest is in fact the presumption that the person is guilty of committing a crime of some sorts. Without that presumption of guilt, there'd be no reasonable basis for detainment and/or incarceration pending a preliminary hearing.
    Actually it isn't based on that at all. The prosecution has to prove your guilt. While the police may be able to arrest you, they cannot hold you indefinitely unless they have probable cause to detain past a certain time. I'm not sure of the limit. Then you are afforded your Miranda rights unless you waive them. Which a retired detective told to never do. His advice was to lawyer up immediately. Even if it is a traffic ticket. The police will claim that makes you look guilty but so what. The burden of proof is on them. Never give up your rights.

    Watch this video:

    http://youtu.be/w-WMn_zHCVo
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #267
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You are correct with the first sentence, however, "preponderence of the evidence" is the standard in a civil trial. In a criminal trial, it is "proof beyond reasonable doubt".
    I apologize for not using the correct legal term. I do not claim to be a lawyer.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  8. #268
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Actually it isn't based on that at all. The prosecution has to prove your guilt. While the police may be able to arrest you, they cannot hold you indefinitely unless they have probable cause to detain past a certain time. I'm not sure of the limit. Then you are afforded your Miranda rights unless you waive them. Which a retired detective told to never do. His advice was to lawyer up immediately. Even if it is a traffic ticket. The police will claim that makes you look guilty but so what. The burden of proof is on them. Never give up your rights.

    Watch this video:

    http://youtu.be/w-WMn_zHCVo
    I think you're either ignoring my point or didn't get it.

    All of what you said is true, but in order to be arrested and subsequently end up in the court system where the prosecution has to prove that a person is guilty of a crime, that person has to first be presumed guilty of that crime.

    "Probably cause" is pretty much the presumption that something illegal is/has taken place (not proof that something illegal is/has taken place) in order for the police to take actions that they would otherwise not be able to do without violating a person's rights.

    Additionally, Miranda Rights are not something afforded to you by the police. You have them right now. The reading of the Miranda Rights is a legal formality for being able to use what the suspect says in court to prosecute them.

  9. #269
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    WARNING: PREPARE FOR FACTS TO BE ADDED TO THIS GOAT ROPING OF A CONVERSATION

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls
    SPFDRum likes this.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  10. #270
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    "You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts."

    Some of you really need to let that sink in.
    SPFDRum and ATFDFF like this.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  11. #271
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,511

    Default

    Known thug.
    Man striving to be a police officer. Which was used against him because he applied a various departments but didn't make the hire. Well if that, as the media portrayed, gives him a hero complex, there is a whole crap load of wanna-be's that have applied at numerous career departments that didn't get hired. Who have the exact same thing....
    The video sums it up.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  12. #272
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    WARNING: PREPARE FOR FACTS TO BE ADDED TO THIS GOAT ROPING OF A CONVERSATION

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls
    Damn facts ....... Amazing how they can get in the way of a poor little innocent black kid vs. the big bad racist narrative.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #273
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Here's a scenario that is just as likely. Martin noticed a creepy looking guy following him. Realizing he was near his house he doubled back ....
    and if he didn't double back and did go home....end of story!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #274
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    WARNING: PREPARE FOR FACTS TO BE ADDED TO THIS GOAT ROPING OF A CONVERSATION

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls
    Watched it already. I don'tnecessarily find fault with most of it. The ultra right wingers posted it on a gun forum I frequent. In between their high fiving and celebrating.

    By the way, Bill Whittle is a conservative. So are we to believe HE is objective?
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  15. #275
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    "You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts."

    Some of you really need to let that sink in.
    Dispute any of this.

    IF you assume that Trayvon Martin threw the first punch THEN, AND ONLY THEN, is Zimmerman justified in using deadly force when the fight occurs and he feels his life is in danger.

    The jury found Zimmerman not guilty of murder.

    I have said that Zimmerman, according to the jury, was within his legal rights AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME when he shot Trayvon.

    I have said that while Zimmerman may have had the legal right to follow Trayvon, tactically it was ridiculously stupid to leave his vehicle to attempt to locate someone he deemed "suspicious."

    I have also said that if Zimmerman stays in his vehicle, a safe distance back, reports Trayvon's last location it is most likely no confrontation occurs.

    Where am I wrong?
    RFDACM02 likes this.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  16. #276
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Known thug.
    Man striving to be a police officer. Which was used against him because he applied a various departments but didn't make the hire. Well if that, as the media portrayed, gives him a hero complex, there is a whole crap load of wanna-be's that have applied at numerous career departments that didn't get hired. Who have the exact same thing....
    The video sums it up.
    Come on you are better than this. Zimmerman has a history of Domestic Violence and fighting with the police. Trayvon's "crimes" although never charged with anything are theft and vandalism.

    Yeah...now what?
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  17. #277
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    9,975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Damn facts ....... Amazing how they can get in the way of a poor little innocent black kid vs. the big bad racist narrative.
    We do know for a fact that Zimmerman is the one that had a history of being physically violent.

    So the likelihood of him throwing the first punch or engaging in physical activity is greater.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-24-2013 at 08:32 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  18. #278
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What biases?

    If you look at Zimmerman's past he demonstrated no significant biases against blacks.

    The fact is he saw somebody who he did not recognize, in his opinion, looking and walking around the homes in a suspicious manner rather than just walking down the street, wearing a hoodie, which is often used to cover up ones face so they cannot be recognized.

    If you wish to define that as bias, have at it. To me, it's just somebody picking up on what he considered suspicious activity.
    My response was directed at RFDACMO2, who posted that we all have built-in pre-programmed biases that we can't control. I was not referring to a racial bias.

    You say a hoodie is often worn to "cover up one's face so they cannot be recognized".

    There are some other reasons people wear hoodies. Like keeping their heads WARM or DRY!

    Which is more likely to you?

  19. #279
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    WARNING: PREPARE FOR FACTS TO BE ADDED TO THIS GOAT ROPING OF A CONVERSATION

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls
    I believe you're the second person to link us to that video. The problem is that video does not introduce any FACTS either, at least not concerning the case. Just more speculation and media bias. It's just bias in a different direction.

  20. #280
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    WARNING: PREPARE FOR FACTS TO BE ADDED TO THIS GOAT ROPING OF A CONVERSATION

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls
    What facts? All I saw was more speculation and media bias. Just happens to be bias in the other direction.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. PG soon.....we hope!?
    By arhaney in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-23-2007, 10:39 AM
  2. Not Exactly Fire Related, But It Fits.
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-28-2004, 10:48 AM
  3. Might there be hope?!!
    By BC79er_OLDDELETE in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 02-09-2004, 11:04 AM
  4. Any Hope?
    By Kiernan in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-26-2003, 08:48 PM
  5. Hope for the best?
    By Bones42 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-15-2003, 08:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts