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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #341
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ]
    Again, Zimmerman was acting fully and completely within his rights to follow somebody who didn't look like they belonged in the neighborhood. And again, given the profile of his neighborhood, I would likely have done the same thing

    Stop dancing around it and play the racist card. You have admitted before it was because he was black and that you as an old white man are scared of young black people.

    He was doing nothing illegal and he was fully within his rights.

    Still makes him a moron responsible for the confrontation by not staying in his car, calling police and then staying out of it.

    It's the one's on the left that are somehow accusing Zimmerman of doing something wrong, when it is apparent that Martin is the one that doubled back to apparently confront Zimmerman.

    If I thought I was being followed I would do the same thing. However, most likely being armed myself the playing field is a lot more in my favor. Being armed doesn't mean the gun comes out at this point, but it does mean I can, and will, defend myself if it came to that. If I wasn't happy with Zimmerman's answers I would call the police and request assistance because I was being followed by a suspicious person.

    If those on the left would admit that Zimmerman did nothing illegal and was fully within his rights to follow what he considered a suspicious person in his neighborhood, I would probably have less passion for this issue.

    I would find you far more honest if you just admitted you are a racist afraid of black youth for nothing more than them being black. Martin had every right to be there and the only reason that Zimmerman believed he didn't was because he was black.
    Funny thing is I am a 54 year old white man. I own a 2013 Dodge Dart in Citrus Peel (Lime green) and it is amazing how many different young people want to talk about it, white, black, and hispanic. I was driving in Milwaukee and a couple of young black guys pulled up alongside me at a stop light in their car a jacked up Buick with 20 inch rims and spinners and we asked each other about our cars. No fear, no threats, just guys talking about cars. It would seem I might have been the suspicious one there because I was in an obviously black neighborhood...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 10-29-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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  2. #342
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Funny thing is I am a 54 year old white man. I own a 2013 Dodge Dart in Citrus Peel (Lime green) and it is amazing how many different young people want to talk about it, white, black, and hispanic. I was driving in Milwaukee and a couple of young black guys pulled up alongside me at a stop light in their car a jacked up Buick with 20 inch rims and spinners and we asked each other about our cars. No fear, no threats, just guys talking about cars. It would seem I might have been the suspicious one there because I was in an obviously black neighborhood...
    The scariest group of folks I've seen lately are white folks. We had a riot last summer after the U.S. Open of Surfing competition. Mostly white kids.
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    Stop dancing around it and play the racist card. You have admitted before it was because he was black and that you as an old white man are scared of young black people.

    I have no issue in stating that if I lived in a primarily white neighborhood, like I do, a young black male walking down the street would be suspicious and would garner the attention of most of our residents. Would most follow him? No. But they would defiantly keep an eye on him until he passed the next several homes.

    If you want to call that racist, fine.


    Still makes him a moron responsible for the confrontation by not staying in his car, calling police and then staying out of it.

    I never said that getting out of the car was a smart decision, but it was not a wrong decision in terms of his rights as a member of that community to keep tabs on somebody that simply looked out of place.


    If I thought I was being followed I would do the same thing. However, most likely being armed myself the playing field is a lot more in my favor. Being armed doesn't mean the gun comes out at this point, but it does mean I can, and will, defend myself if it came to that. If I wasn't happy with Zimmerman's answers I would call the police and request assistance because I was being followed by a suspicious person.

    And if Martin had done that, which was fully within his rights, rather than double back, we would likely not be having this conversation. But Martin made the decision to double back and likely confront Zimmerman rather than calling the police.

    I would find you far more honest if you just admitted you are a racist afraid of black youth for nothing more than them being black. Martin had every right to be there and the only reason that Zimmerman believed he didn't was because he was black.

    If you want to call me a racist, fine. But statically in this area the majority of the criminal activity including break-ins and violent crime is conducted by black youth. That isn't my opinion. That is the data. So yes, black youth in my area when the vast majority of my subdivision is white will raise a flag with me, as likely it would with many of the residents.

    If the black community has a problem with the suspicions of the white community, the solution is pretty simple .... Do what you need to do to change the data, and that will over time change the perceptions. Don't blame the white community for responding to the FACT that blacks commit a disproportionate share of the crime v. population when compared to whites.

    Until that changes, I will be far more suspicious around black youth as compared to white youth as the data indicates they ARE more likely to be involved in criminal activity.

    And that may be the data in that area which drove Zimmerman to make the decision about following Zimmerman.
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  4. #344
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Frankly Bobby, your what if Martin hadn't doubled back are trumped by the fact that if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, called police, and not gotten out of his vehicle to follow Martin, there is absolutely NO opportunity for confrontation. He would still have accomplished his need to be a super vigilant racist profiler without any chance of physical contact by doing all I suggested. But the problem is he couldn't play hero if he did that and being a dumb azz got his butt beat and became a killer. Nice work on his part.
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  5. #345
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But statically in this area the majority of the criminal activity including break-ins and violent crime is conducted by black youth. That isn't my opinion. That is the data.
    As usual there is more to the story of these types of STATISTICS!!

    That crime committed by black youths is directed towards other black youths.

    There was no indicator Martin had been involved with any type of that activity in his life.....ever.

    Fyerdup hits the nail on the head. Zimmerman is like your band of idiots in Bossier Parish that call themselves firefighters. Losers that are desperate to be thought heroes since their pathetic lives have led to them being insignificant.
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  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As usual there is more to the story of these types of STATISTICS!!

    That crime committed by black youths is directed towards other black youths.

    For the most part, yes. That being said, they are still responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime overall compared to population. That is not a fact that you can argue.


    There was no indicator Martin had been involved with any type of that activity in his life.....ever.

    Fyerdup hits the nail on the head. Zimmerman is like your band of idiots in Bossier Parish that call themselves firefighters. Losers that are desperate to be thought heroes since their pathetic lives have led to them being insignificant.
    Interesting.

    Point is that he was still within his legal rights to everything he chose to do and there is no way that even a liberal like you can deny that.
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  7. #347
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Interesting.

    Point is that he was still within his legal rights to everything he chose to do and there is no way that even a liberal like you can deny that.
    Except that he denied Martin "due process." You can't deny that.

    Martin wasn't doing anything wrong. You've yet to put forth a reason that required Zimmerman to follow him longer than a cursory observation other than your race baiting.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-29-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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  8. #348
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post

    Fyerdup hits the nail on the head. Zimmerman is like your band of idiots in Bossier Parish that call themselves firefighters. Losers that are desperate to be thought heroes since their pathetic lives have led to them being insignificant.
    Really? Come on man.
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  9. #349
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Interesting.

    Point is that he was still within his legal rights to everything he chose to do and there is no way that even a liberal like you can deny that.
    Here's the completely ironic part of your steadfast defense of Zimmerman's actions...Trayvon Martin was within his legal rights to do everything he chose until a racist profiling buffoon decided to overstep his bounds and harassed him by following him with the sole reason being he was black.
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  10. #350
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    It seems to be the answer to all our ills. If Zimmerman was a racist, or profiling, both of which the FBI discounted by the way, why? Was there a surge of crime in his neighborhood? Was it caused by a certain class or race of individuals? Was the surrounding neighborhood population a vast majority of a certain class or race of people? Is there a segment of the populace in this area responsible for a disproportion of crime? All very tough questions with large social implications that need to be honestly answered before anyone can prove someone was "racially profiling" But none of this will be touched with a 10' stick.
    As far as the what if argument, strawman at best. It's done and over, with consequences. There is no "what if". Period.
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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Except that he denied Martin "due process." You can't deny that.

    Martin wasn't doing anything wrong. You've yet to put forth a reason that required Zimmerman to follow him longer than a cursory observation other than your race baiting.
    If this wasn't so tragic I'd be laughing now.

    Due process? Really?

    Where was the due process for Zimmerman as martin pounded his head against the ground and sat on top of him striking him over and over?

    Again... Zimmerman did absolutely nothing illegal by following Martin. He saw somebody that didn't, in his opinion, fit into the neighborhood acting in what he considered a suspicious manner .... and as much as you may not like it, race may have been a factor ... and followed him without confronting him in a physical manner. Fully legal and fully within his rights.

    We will never know who escalated this incident to a physical confrontation but we do know that Martin made the choice to double back.

    And the evidence available indicates that Zimmerman was being assaulted.

    The simple fact is that in most places blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of the crime. That's a fact. I'm sorry if that fact creates perceptions in some parts the white community that young black males need to be always treated as suspects, but maybe the black community needs to work a little bit harder on solving the root of the problem ... black crime .... as compared to spending most of it's energy on yelling and screaming about racism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Here's the completely ironic part of your steadfast defense of Zimmerman's actions...Trayvon Martin was within his legal rights to do everything he chose until a racist profiling buffoon decided to overstep his bounds and harassed him by following him with the sole reason being he was black.
    And exactly where did he overstep his bounds?

    He saw somebody ... yes, a young black male .... in a community (which had experienced a number of recent break-ins) where in his opinion, he didn't fit, and followed him.

    Last I knew that was perfectly legal.
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  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If this wasn't so tragic I'd be laughing now.

    Due process? Really?

    Where was the due process for Zimmerman as martin pounded his head against the ground and sat on top of him striking him over and over?
    You assume Martin initiated the confrontation. You're speculating. Especially given that of the two, Zimmerman is the one with a history of physical violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again... Zimmerman did absolutely nothing illegal by following Martin. He saw somebody that didn't, in his opinion, fit into the neighborhood acting in what he considered a suspicious manner .... and as much as you may not like it, race may have been a factor ... and followed him without confronting him in a physical manner. Fully legal and fully within his rights.
    In what way did he not fit? What was the indicator that made Zimmerman draw that conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We will never know who escalated this incident to a physical confrontation but we do know that Martin made the choice to double back.
    Yes we do. Zimmerman's pathetic desire to be a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And the evidence available indicates that Zimmerman was being assaulted.
    We don't know who initiated the physical confrontation. Again, we know Zimmerman is the one with a history of physical violence. Though I'm sure he got more than he wanted when his opponent was twice the size of the female he had beat up earlier in his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The simple fact is that in most places blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of the crime. That's a fact. I'm sorry if that fact creates perceptions in some parts the white community that young black males need to be always treated as suspects, but maybe the black community needs to work a little bit harder on solving the root of the problem ... black crime .... as compared to spending most of it's energy on yelling and screaming about racism.
    You throw the race card with a statistic that is meaningless in this scenario.

    Once again, Martin was doing nothing of the type of activity you describe that warranted the reaction from Zimmerman.
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  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You assume Martin initiated the confrontation. You're speculating. Especially given that of the two, Zimmerman is the one with a history of physical violence.

    And again, you ignore Martin's history of MMA interest and gang activity.


    In what way did he not fit? What was the indicator that made Zimmerman draw that conclusion?

    That would be a conclusion Zimmerman made based on his knowledge of the area as well as his past experiences.


    Yes we do. Zimmerman's pathetic desire to be a hero.

    So following somebody that looks out of place is "being a hero"?


    We don't know who initiated the physical confrontation. Again, we know Zimmerman is the one with a history of physical violence. Though I'm sure he got more than he wanted when his opponent was twice the size of the female he had beat up earlier in his life.

    Again, we ignore Martin's history.


    You throw the race card with a statistic that is meaningless in this scenario.

    So I bring up a fact and I'm tossing the race card? Really?

    Again, if the black community doesn't like the facts .. Work harder to change the numbers. If they don't like the perceptions .. Work harder to change the facts. Don't blame white folks who perceive that black youth is more of threat than white youth when the facts bear that out. If you liberals want change demand that the black community and black leadership becomes accountable for changing the behavior of black youth. Stop accepting excuses. Demand that every part of the black community condemns what is occurring in terms of crime with black youth and demand that they change it.

    So what would you call those who demanded "justice" because it was a Latino that shot a black kid?


    Once again, Martin was doing nothing of the type of activity you describe that warranted the reaction from Zimmerman.
    Really?

    History of recent break-ins ..... A black youth hiding his face in a hoodie walking through the neighborhood. Again .. right or wrong following martin was perfectly legal and may be considered acceptable by many given the circumstances. profiling? Probably ... But once again we go back to the statistics.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And exactly where did he overstep his bounds?

    If he was in fact a mmber of the "Neighborhood Watch" as so many have claimed then he overstepped his bounds on 2 accounts: 1) Being armed, 2) Following the "Suspicious Individual". Both of those violate the rules of the Neighborhood Watch program whose rules say observe and report but do not follow or attempt to apprehend.

    He saw somebody ... yes, a young black male .... in a community (which had experienced a number of recent break-ins) where in his opinion, he didn't fit, and followed him.

    See above...

    Last I knew that was perfectly legal.

    So is the expectation of not be harrassed for simply walking hrough a neighborhood where your ethnicity automatically makes you a criminal even if you are doing nothing wrong.
    You have admitted openly that the entire reason for this confrontation, in your opinion, is because Trayvon martin was black. If that is the case it is absolutely pathetic. By the way, I believe that is EXACTLY the case.
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  16. #356
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It seems to be the answer to all our ills. If Zimmerman was a racist, or profiling, both of which the FBI discounted by the way, why? Was there a surge of crime in his neighborhood? Was it caused by a certain class or race of individuals? Was the surrounding neighborhood population a vast majority of a certain class or race of people? Is there a segment of the populace in this area responsible for a disproportion of crime? All very tough questions with large social implications that need to be honestly answered before anyone can prove someone was "racially profiling" But none of this will be touched with a 10' stick.
    As far as the what if argument, strawman at best. It's done and over, with consequences. There is no "what if". Period.
    There is absolutely a what if. The what if is clearly if Zimmerman had follwed the rules of the Neighborhood Watch program there is no confrontation, there is no fight, there is no shooting, there is no dead black young man. What if people would open their eyes and see that?
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  17. #357
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?
    Yes, really!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, you ignore Martin's history of MMA interest and gang activity.
    So taking MMA is now a sign of being a criminal? I'll have to tell that to all my former colleagues (of all ethnic groups) you believe they're criminals. A lot of them were taking MMA lessons.

    What criminal activity does he have in his past? None.

    One of the beligerents had a gun and one did not. That is a better indicator of intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    History of recent break-ins .
    WTF!! When did Martin ever get charged let alone convicted of doing B & E's?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .... A black youth hiding his face in a hoodie walking through the neighborhood.
    In the rain. You forgot to mention it was raining. That is one of the benefits of wearing a hoodie during inclement weather.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again .. right or wrong following martin was perfectly legal and may be considered acceptable by many given the circumstances. profiling? Probably ... But once again we go back to the statistics.
    To use your logic, Martin was perfectly within his rights to double back and verbally confront his follower. Something that is considered acceptable by many given the circumstances.

    The statistics don't support you in this circumstance. Though you've proven your incapable of understanding why.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-30-2013 at 01:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So taking MMA is now a sign of being a criminal? I'll have to tell that to all my former colleagues (of all ethnic groups) you believe they're criminals. A lot of them were taking MMA lessons.

    So we have a kid that has a history including pictures of making gang related signs and being moved into "alternative programs" in thee Miami-Dade school system. I guess we ignore that because he is black. Oh sorry .. I guess that's me being racist again.




    What criminal activity does he have in his history. None.

    Martin had been suspended twice already that school year when in the Miami-Dade system for offenses that should have gotten him arrested – once for getting caught with a burglary tool and a dozen items of female jewelry, the second time for getting caught with marijuana and a marijuana pipe.

    Ya, he's an angel.


    One of the beligerents had a gun and one did not. That is a better indicator of intent.

    So everybody that carries a gun around for self-protection has the intent to shoot somebody? Guess that would make most males and a fair number of women down here future killers.

    Sounds like one of those liberal anti-gun perceptions to me.



    WTF!! When did Martin ever get charged let alone convicted of doing B & E's?

    Was referring to the recent history in the complex. Within the past year there had been 9 thefts, 8 burglaries, dozens of attempt break-ins and one death.

    Just 2 weeks earlier Zimmerman had noticed a young, black male prying into windows. He was caught the next day with property from the complex.

    Zimmerman reported to the police that martin was "just sorta walking around looking into homes".

    And Martin did have a history of being found with a break-in tool while in the M-D school system.

    I think I would label that suspicious, especially given the recent criminal activity in the complex.



    In the rain. You forgot to mention it was raining. That is one of the benefits of wearing a hoodie during inclement weather.

    A hoodie is often used to cover one's face.

    Yup, suspicious given the recent history in the complex.



    To use your logic, Martin was perfectly within his rights to double back and verbally confront his follower. Something that is considered acceptable by many given the circumstances.

    Was he within his rights? Yes. Just the same that Zimmerman was 100% within his rights to follow this kid around.

    The statistics don't support you in this circumstance. Though you've proven your incapable of understanding why.
    Really?

    Let's put this into context.

    The crime rate in Sanford is considered high. The data tells the following story:

    Violent crime is more than 50% above the national average and far higher than any other city in the region.
    Rapes are almost double the national average.
    Robberies and burglaries are over double the national average.

    So Sanford apparently, from the data, has a major crime problem.

    And 30.5% of the population is black.

    So crime is an issue in Sanford. And using national data which clearly states that young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the crime compared to whites, one could surmise that young black males are responsible for much of that crime.

    So how out of line was Zimmerman when he labeled Martin suspicious?
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  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    So we have a kid that has a history including pictures of making gang related signs and being moved into "alternative programs" in thee Miami-Dade school system. I guess we ignore that because he is black. Oh sorry .. I guess that's me being racist again.
    You would have a point if Zimmerman knew all that. But he didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Let's put this into context.

    The crime rate in Sanford is considered high. The data tells the following story:

    Violent crime is more than 50% above the national average and far higher than any other city in the region.
    Rapes are almost double the national average.
    Robberies and burglaries are over double the national average.

    So Sanford apparently, from the data, has a major crime problem.

    And 30.5% of the population is black.
    How many of those statistics apply to that neighborhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So crime is an issue in Sanford. And using national data which clearly states that young, black males commit a disproportionate amount of the crime compared to whites, one could surmise that young black males are responsible for much of that crime.

    So how out of line was Zimmerman when he labeled Martin suspicious?
    Pretty far out of line since Martin wasn't doing anything illegal. Unless walking down the street is now considered suspicious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You would have a point if Zimmerman knew all that. But he didn't.

    Goes to Martin's behavior. Also goes toward stating that he may have been the aggressor when he doubled-back.

    How many of those statistics apply to that neighborhood?

    According to the census, Sanford is not a very big city in terms of square milage. The recent history of break-ins and attempted break-ins are consistent with the city-wide data.


    Pretty far out of line since Martin wasn't doing anything illegal. Unless walking down the street is now considered suspicious.
    History of young black males being involved and arrested for break-ins in the complex. Suspicious behavior "looking around the houses" as stated by Zimmerman. Overall crime rate in the city as well as recent break-ins in the complex itself.

    Martin being a young, black male "looking around the houses" in a hoodie, which can be easily perceived as being used to cover one's face.

    Suspicious? Very likely can be interpreted that way, especially in the context of recent criminal activity in the complex.
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