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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #26
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    I'm sorry to derail the thread but.. No one who is a civil servant weather it be cop, emt, firefighter... Should think that a riot is even an option..

    We're supposed to save life and property not state that destroying life and property is an appropriate response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    Honestly..No. Alot of talk about if Zimmerman stayed in the car.. Didn't follow him etc..

    How about if trayvon was home getting ready for bed.. Perhaps studying or reading. Researching colleges or military options online.. Watching TV with his father..

    When I was 17 if I wasn't working I was home by that time..and if I was working I came right home. I had a car and a cell phone and knew that was a privledge that could be taken away.. I understood consequences.

    If trayvon Just ran home, ran away, called the cops, called his dad... Called anyone.. He would still be alive.

    But instead... He chose to start a physical altercation with Zimmerman..
    Sorry, he didn't start anything. You may not like the truth here but if Zimmerman DOES STAY IN HIS CAR this event does NOT occur.

    Your insinuation that because he is out, walking back from the store, he provoked the incident is frankly ridiculous. Once again, ZIMMERMAN provoked the incident playing super hero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I'm sorry to derail the thread but.. No one who is a civil servant weather it be cop, emt, firefighter... Should think that a riot is even an option..

    We're supposed to save life and property not state that destroying life and property is an appropriate response.
    Yet you are okay with Zimmerman intervening, getting his *** kicked, and then shooting Trayvon...
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    Unless you sat in the courtroom for the entire case and heard all the evidence presented....you are all conjecturing.

    The "facts" were discussed in court. The news stations report (for the most part) their versions of those "facts".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Unless you sat in the courtroom for the entire case and heard all the evidence presented....you are all conjecturing.

    The "facts" were discussed in court. The news stations report (for the most part) their versions of those "facts".

    we arent arguing if zimmerman is guilty of murder or not, what i believe fyredup is arguing is the fact that none of this would even be if zimmerman didn't try to play hero and get out of his vehicle which he was directed would not be a smart move... there were no witnesses to anything in that altercation, 1 guy saw people wrestling that was it, but what happened before or after is only known between 2 people, 1 of those is dead

    i agree with fyredup, was he probably in the right to shoot martin after getting his *** kicked yea, but was the whole situation avoidable yes... there is nothing illegal about a 17 year old walking through ANY neighborhood, with skittles and an iced tea..

    and BigGriff im sorry you were what seems a goody goody but when I was 17, i also had a cell phone and access to my parents car with permission, but i would also walk to the corner store whenever i wanted... even on school nights if i was still awake at midnight i had no qualms with walking to the store... i also just looked it up, he was shot at like 7:30pm so let me know the last time you heard of someone going to sleep at 7:30pm that is under the age of 75
    Last edited by ladder9volley; 07-14-2013 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default "Innocent" 17 YO? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    ...there is nothing illegal about a 17 year old walking through ANY neighborhood, with skittles and an iced tea..
    Maybe not, unless you know about "Lean," also known in southern hip-hop culture as "Sizzurp" and "Purple Drank."

    More about it here, , along with an interesting timeline.

    Might change your opinion about the whole thing...
    Last edited by tree68; 07-14-2013 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Syntax Errors
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Maybe not, unless you know about "Lean," also known in southern hip-hop culture as "Sizzurp" and "Purple Drank."

    More about it here, , along with an interesting timeline.

    Might change your opinion about the whole thing...

    so where does it say he was high on "lean" during this whole thing?? all it says is he probably smoked a blunt before walking or running back to his dads g/fs house... marijuana has reportedly made people paranoid.. so he got paranoid that someone was following/watching him and started running.. im still not sure

    why did that make george get out of his truck and do any type of snooping.. i mean he is the neighborhood watch(edit: he isnt just a neighborhod watch, he is the captain of it) he should atleast know the layout of his complex and the surrounding streets.. as firefighters we know our cities layouts not just a couple blocks and a single neighborhood...
    his job is to observe the neighborhood and report to the police if he sees something suspicious(which he did do).. his job is not to play police and try and confront ANYBODY...

    and once again there is nothing illegal about a "cigar", or iced tea, or skittles... unless he replaces the tobacco inside that cigar with marijuana it is simply a cigar(which for 17 is still illegal i suppose) and unless he adds "cough syrup"(and thats only if he doesnt have a prescription) to that arizona and skittles then it is simply candy and a drink..

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Maybe not, unless you know about "Lean," also known in southern hip-hop culture as "Sizzurp" and "Purple Drank."

    More about it here, , along with an interesting timeline.

    Might change your opinion about the whole thing...
    AGAIN, and for the LOVE OF GOD, why people can't see the so F***ingly obvious with this case is beyond me, if Zimmerman calls the police, as he did, stays in his car at a safe distance, like the dispatcher told him to do, and reports Trayvon's movements to the police, no confrontation occurs, no fight breaks out, and no shooting and subsequent death occurs.

    I don't give a crap if he was stoned off his azz, if Zimmerman stays out of it, no confrontation occurs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nope, stated facts in evidence in post 6.
    You stated that you BELIEVE Zimmerman provoked it by getting involved physically. Sorry, but what you BELIEVE is not a fact. So you did speculate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    we arent arguing if zimmerman is guilty of murder or not, what i believe fyredup is arguing is the fact that none of this would even be if zimmerman didn't try to play hero and get out of his vehicle which he was directed would not be a smart move...
    While I totally agree with the fact that had Zimmerman stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened, he didn't. You can what-if it to any degree you want, but the fact is that he left his car, which did not violate any laws. He followed Martin, which also didn't violate any laws. He was legally carrying a firearm, again no violation of law. Similarly, Martin wen to the store. Didn't violate the law. Martin walked home cutting though the neighborhood. Didn't violate any law (question as to the legality of the "gated community" trespassing? Still not a actionable crime). At some point Martin and Zimmerman met and only one can say what happened and who violated the law. Zimmerman shot Martin and he died, which given the single story provided, under the law regarding Justifiable Use of Force, was not a violation.

    So while we might agree that under the "Cause and Affect" rules Zimmerman could have prevented all of this, he according to our system of justice and FL law, committed no crime. He will live with this for the rest of his life. How hard this is really depends on exactly what he knows to have happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    AGAIN, and for the LOVE OF GOD, why people can't see the so F***ingly obvious with this case is beyond me, if Zimmerman calls the police, as he did, stays in his car at a safe distance, like the dispatcher told him to do, and reports Trayvon's movements to the police, no confrontation occurs, no fight breaks out, and no shooting and subsequent death occurs.

    I don't give a crap if he was stoned off his azz, if Zimmerman stays out of it, no confrontation occurs.
    While we agree wholeheartedly, Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime for acting like an idiot. We might agree that future laws should be more detailed to ensure that armed citizens with no actual duty to act, should not be allowed to intervene unless an actual deadly force crime is imminent or taking place. Again, this would merely be an answer to any future case such as this.

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    Unfortunately for Zimmerman, this isn't over.

    It's probably likely that the feds will come after him, if for no other reason satisfy the political need that will ... or actually, already has been .... ginned up by the media and the NAACP, etc, etc.

    He likely will also face a civil suit, where the burden of proof is much lower.
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    The FBI found no evidence of the events being a hate crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You stated that you BELIEVE Zimmerman provoked it by getting involved physically. Sorry, but what you BELIEVE is not a fact. So you did speculate.
    I didn't speculate at all.

    FACT: Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.

    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-15-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While we agree wholeheartedly, Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime for acting like an idiot. We might agree that future laws should be more detailed to ensure that armed citizens with no actual duty to act, should not be allowed to intervene unless an actual deadly force crime is imminent or taking place. Again, this would merely be an answer to any future case such as this.
    Reckless endangerment - He provoked and altercation with another person, whom he suspected of "being on drugs"; a logical outcome would be a physical altercation. Provoking such a physical altercation when armed with deadly force (concealed carry) is reckless endangerment.

    Obstructing governmental affairs - After reporting a suspicious action, Mr. Zimmerman refused to obey the orders given on behalf of law enforcement. This directly affected the ability of law enforcement to investigate the complaint given by Mr. Zimmerman.

    There are 2 laws that he could have easily been found guilty of. At this time, Double Jeopardy is in effect and he can no longer be criminally charged with these offenses as he has been acquitted of charges from this one incident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Unless you sat in the courtroom for the entire case and heard all the evidence presented....you are all conjecturing.

    The "facts" were discussed in court. The news stations report (for the most part) their versions of those "facts".
    Very true. What the media reports and what actually goes on in court are often two very different things.

    I have been involved in many trials as a prosecutor. Sometimes because of typographical errors, sometimes because of a general lack or misunderstanding of the law as it applies to the case, and sometimes because of a bias or the desire to make the story more compelling, the facts and the results of the cases were often conflicting with the stories covering them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I didn't speculate at all.

    FACT: Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.

    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    Yet the timeline in the link I posted reads slightly differently:
    7:12

    When asked by the dispatcher, Zimmerman agrees not to follow Trayvon, and his heavy breathing ends. "He ran," says Zimmerman. Even if running slowly, Trayvon could have made it to Brandy's house in a half a minute. It was only 100 yards from the truck.

    7:13

    Zimmerman is hesitant to give out his address. "I don't know where this kid is." He looks around to see where Trayvon has gone, fails to spot him, terminates his call, and heads back to the truck.

    7:14 - 7:16

    These are the missing two minutes. After receiving a call from Dee-Dee, Trayvon has come back to confront Zimmerman. Their final confrontation takes place 70 yards from Brandy's townhouse and only 30 yards from Zimmerman's truck. No one hunted Trayvon down. Although he has kept the drink and candy on his person, Trayvon does not have a blunt with him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I didn't speculate at all.

    FACT: Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.

    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    You originally stated that Zimmerman provoked the incident when he "got involved physically". Who says he got involved physically without being attacked first? We just don't know exactly what happened immediately prior to it getting physical. This is why I interpreted your statement as speculation. Don't get me wrong; I don't deny your right to do that. I did it myself. I just found it odd that you mentioned it when others did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The FBI found no evidence of the events being a hate crime.
    Fully aware of that.

    But when has facts stopped Holder and the DOJ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet the timeline in the link I posted reads slightly differently:
    I took a look at that link. A bunch of stuff from "independent contributors" to a couple of web sites. Credibility level is pretty low in my book. Who exactly are these independent contributors? What are their qualifications? Who does the fact checking before their contributions are posted online and who do they answer to? Probably no one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Reckless endangerment - He provoked and altercation with another person, whom he suspected of "being on drugs"; a logical outcome would be a physical altercation.
    This is speculation. We just do not know if he provoked the altercation of not. Cause and affect are not evidence or provocation. It may very well have been as you imply, but short of actual evidence, this is pure speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Obstructing governmental affairs - After reporting a suspicious action, Mr. Zimmerman refused to obey the orders given on behalf of law enforcement.
    This is yet another gross overstatement of the actual facts. The dispatcher (with no authority to give lawful instructions) when told Zimmerman was following Martin said, "We don't need you to do that". That is far from refusing an order given on the behalf of LE.

    You don't have to like the outcome and I'd go so far as to say I'd support laws that could prevent the cause and affect of Zimmermans' actions, but if we all scrutinized every shooting case this heavily there'd be a lot of criminals walking the streets. Regardless of his poor decisions I do not think Zimmerman poses a threat to anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    This is not factual. THe dispatcher told Zimmerman "you don't have to do that", when he said he was going to follow Martin.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.
    It was not a directive but merely a liability reducing statement to ensure the dispatch center was not held liable. Thankfully the dispatcher said that, because without a doubt, had it not been said, they'd be high on the lawsuit list, regardless of their inability to lawfully order someone to stop doing anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    As I said above, cause and affect are not evidence of provocation. While Zimmerman could have avoided all this and Martin would still be alive, that doesn't make his following him a crime (under current law).

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I disagree. Zimmerman took one look, saw a black kid and decided the ONLY reason the kid could possibly be in the area was to rob houses. He basically said that to dispatcher. The incident was about race from the first minute.

    I do believe that the jury decision, unlike some other verdicts, was NOT based on race.
    Trayvon evidently took one look at Zimmerman and made a similar prejudiced decision, ergo the "Cracker" remark. This is nothing more than a thug and an idiot colliding. And that leads to bad things happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitFF View Post
    I have detected a lot of racism in response to this verdict. From the right wing media, on my Facebook feed, etc. If Martin were your son there is no way you would accept this verdict.

    I was on duty in America's arson capital when this verdict came down. A lot of my coworkers shook their heads, as did I (a white guy), but it didn't prompt civil unrest. I think it should have.
    If there's any racism, it's from the left. You think it should prompt civil unrest????? I'd have to say that line of thinking is idiocy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sorry, he didn't start anything. You may not like the truth here but if Zimmerman DOES STAY IN HIS CAR this event does NOT occur.

    Your insinuation that because he is out, walking back from the store, he provoked the incident is frankly ridiculous. Once again, ZIMMERMAN provoked the incident playing super hero.
    Uh, if Zimmerman broke off contact and was heading back to his car, then it's on Trayvon. ESPECIALLY if HE initiated PHYSICAL CONTACT. I can follow someone all day and they have NO right to physical contact. (not that I would) Trayvon had his phone and was texting that girl, so he had a way to report what was happening.

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