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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thank you Captain Obvious.

    Well, we have seen how well the current administration addressed the details in ObamaCare before it was implemented.

    I would hate to trust them with gun control legislation.



    Actually it isn't. Being prohibited from owning a firearm for none of the reasons stated would be surrendering or being denied a freedom.
    Given the wording of the Constitution regarding gun ownership, any delay is impinging on our freedom to own those weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How is a background check surrendering my freedom?

    Only the paranoid believe that.
    What is it about "Shall not be infringed" that you don't understand?

    Funny how now you call people paranoid when for 8 years of Bush you were Captain Paranoid looking at every action as another conspiracy. It is not surprising now that your candidate is the prez and his utter disdain for the constitution tht you see no issue with dismantling th ammendments you aren't in favor of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What is it about "Shall not be infringed" that you don't understand?
    How are universal background checks infringing on one's right to bear arms?

    BTW, the Founding Fathers had no problem infringing on the right to bear arms for various groups.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How are universal background checks infringing on one's right to bear arms?

    BTW, the Founding Fathers had no problem infringing on the right to bear arms for various groups.
    Simple.

    It put's into the governments hands the qualifiers and disqualifiers for gun ownership, which frankly, is a right that per the constitution, the government has no right to take away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Simple.

    It put's into the governments hands the qualifiers and disqualifiers for gun ownership, which frankly, is a right that per the constitution, the government has no right to take away.
    Per the constitution, the government doesn't have the right to take ANY right away.

    I don't believe that putting qualifiers on a particular right takes that right away.

    Let's put it this way LAFE: Do you believe that there should be no restrictions whatsoever on gun ownership?
    Last edited by captnjak; 02-06-2014 at 07:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Per the constitution, the government doesn't have the right to take ANY right away.

    I don't believe that putting qualifiers on a particular right takes that right away.

    Let's put it this way LAFE: Do you believe that there should be no restrictions whatsoever on gun ownership?
    If you study and understand the reason the founding fathers included the 2nd Ammendment was to allow citizens to be armed to defend against a tyrannical government then NO, there should be no restrictions. Reality is that it is simply not practical to expect citizens to be armed similar to the military today. But that is already regulated and the fact is there is nothing in the constitution about background checks or registration of firearms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Simple.

    It put's into the governments hands the qualifiers and disqualifiers for gun ownership, which frankly, is a right that per the constitution, the government has no right to take away.
    Universal background checks don't take ones right to bear arms.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Universal background checks don't take ones right to bear arms.
    They certainy do not protect the right to bear arms. It is funny how you cried and moaned for 8 years about the intrusion of government into our private lives yet you are silent on the increase in spying, use of drones, and the intrusion of the current administration into private lives of the average American. Try to be just a bit less of a hypocrite and an agitator.

    Perhaps you should just go back to beating on your 2 favorite victims on FH.com because it is clear you are nothing but a political hack and mouthpiece for the left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem is, and always will be the abysmal diagnosis, and treatment, of the mentally ill in this country...
    Wanna save some money in the budget this year? Close a mental facility!

    And I'd bet there are still some states where possession of marijuana will get you a longer sentence than armed robbery. Not that I'm in favor of marijuana, but that's still messed up.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Personally I believe the issue deserves more scrutiny and examination than your alternative which is nothing.
    We've been asking you for details on the universal background checks to no avail. I'm not promoting do nothing, I want the laws we have to be enforced harshly and strengthened with better tools for prosecutors and judges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    They certainy do not protect the right to bear arms.
    Where in the Constitution does it state that protection is an absolute?

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It is funny how you cried and moaned for 8 years about the intrusion of government into our private lives yet you are silent on the increase in spying, use of drones, and the intrusion of the current administration into private lives of the average American. Try to be just a bit less of a hypocrite and an agitator.
    And the conservative response was that it shouldn't matter unless I was doing something illegal.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    We've been asking you for details on the universal background checks to no avail. I'm not promoting do nothing, I want the laws we have to be enforced harshly and strengthened with better tools for prosecutors and judges.
    Because I'm not an expert. I'm a retired firefighter responding on an obscure message board. I never said I had all the answers on the topic. I stated the issued should be studied to address the details you request. I'm sure that would be part of the process.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Universal background checks don't take ones right to bear arms.
    Maybe not right now to a great extent ....... But depending on who comes into power in the future the mechanisms will be there the limit those who they don't think (or those who they don't want to) have guns.

    The fact is universal background checks can become a very slippery slope ... Sorta like government operated healthcare ... to some very bad situations for our freedoms down the line.
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    I'll be honest, the last 2 days of news in the morning if enforcing the belief that background checks won't help at all.

    Yesterday news story - trial for a guy who shot another person dead in a movie theatre because he was texting his children's babysitter.

    Todays news story - trial for a guy who shot 4 kids in a car because they were playing loud music.

    Both were legally carrying their weapons. IMO, both should spend the rest of their lives in jail.


    I thank my parents for teaching me to avoid and exit from bad situations instead of pulling a gun out.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe not right now to a great extent ....... But depending on who comes into power in the future the mechanisms will be there the limit those who they don't think (or those who they don't want to) have guns.

    The fact is universal background checks can become a very slippery slope ... Sorta like government operated healthcare ... to some very bad situations for our freedoms down the line.
    I would say that it is bad policy to ignore a CURRENTproblem because we're worried about what MIGHT happen in the future. Laws, once passed, are not carved into stone. They can be, and are, changed when necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I would say that it is bad policy to ignore a CURRENTproblem because we're worried about what MIGHT happen in the future. Laws, once passed, are not carved into stone. They can be, and are, changed when necessary.
    But the problem is that restricting gun sales to law abiding persons will do little if anything for the current problem either.

    We are a country that is very used to far more freedom than most of the world, in a lot of areas, and that includes the right to own guns for whatever reason we so choose.

    While I have no major issues with universal background checks I do see it opening the door to restrictions down the line, and yes, that is a concern of mine that would preclude me from supporting universal background checks now, especially given the current president's history of executive orders and modifying legislation illegally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If you study and understand the reason the founding fathers included the 2nd Ammendment was to allow citizens to be armed to defend against a tyrannical government then NO, there should be no restrictions. Reality is that it is simply not practical to expect citizens to be armed similar to the military today. But that is already regulated and the fact is there is nothing in the constitution about background checks or registration of firearms.
    Constitution grants freedom of religion, yet in most places polygamy is illegal.

    Constitution grants free speech, yet inciting to riot is illegal. Slander and libel can bring punishment.

    Constitution grants protection from warrantless search, yet there are exceptions.

    The fact that the constitution doesn't mention it does not mean it is prohibited. There are literally millions of laws, regulations and qualifiers on almost every right we have. Why should gun ownership be any different?

    That is the crux of it for me. We willingly accept regulation after restriction after prohibition in practically every area of our lives on a daily basis. How can a responsible gun owner reject reasonable attempts to keep people safe? We'll spend half a day registering a car or waiting for the cable guy but God forbid we put up with a background check when buying a deadly weapon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But the problem is that restricting gun sales to law abiding persons will do little if anything for the current problem either.

    We are a country that is very used to far more freedom than most of the world, in a lot of areas, and that includes the right to own guns for whatever reason we so choose.

    While I have no major issues with universal background checks I do see it opening the door to restrictions down the line, and yes, that is a concern of mine that would preclude me from supporting universal background checks now, especially given the current president's history of executive orders and modifying legislation illegally.
    The restrictions are not aimed at law abiding persons. They are aimed at the non law abiding. Why is this a problem?

    In a political arguement, because that's all this is, both sides ratchet up the rhetoric to the extreme. Common sense and logic go out the window. Does anybody REALLY believe that this president (or any other) will send agents of the government to their houses to take their guns? Or somehow outlaw entirely the sale or manufacture of guns? The constitution that gun owners rely on so steadfastly for their rights also has measures in place to prevent such tyrannical actions. Do you believe in the constitution or not?

    Or is this the default position because you can't really make any other good arguement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe not right now to a great extent ....... But depending on who comes into power in the future the mechanisms will be there the limit those who they don't think (or those who they don't want to) have guns.

    The fact is universal background checks can become a very slippery slope ... Sorta like government operated healthcare ... to some very bad situations for our freedoms down the line.
    There it is. The paradox of government according to its critics. Every day we read that government is incompetent, inefficient, and run by corrupt individuals who can't find their arses with both hands. Yet at some magical time in the future they will be hypercapable of taking away all our guns.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'll be honest, the last 2 days of news in the morning if enforcing the belief that background checks won't help at all.

    Yesterday news story - trial for a guy who shot another person dead in a movie theatre because he was texting his children's babysitter.

    Todays news story - trial for a guy who shot 4 kids in a car because they were playing loud music.

    Both were legally carrying their weapons. IMO, both should spend the rest of their lives in jail.


    I thank my parents for teaching me to avoid and exit from bad situations instead of pulling a gun out.
    The truth is EVERY person legally carrying a gun should make situational awareness their primary mission, and if at all possible exiting the trouble area over pulling your gun. The only time your gun should come out is when you fear for your safety or the safety of others around you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Constitution grants freedom of religion, yet in most places polygamy is illegal.

    Constitution grants free speech, yet inciting to riot is illegal. Slander and libel can bring punishment.

    Constitution grants protection from warrantless search, yet there are exceptions.

    The fact that the constitution doesn't mention it does not mean it is prohibited. There are literally millions of laws, regulations and qualifiers on almost every right we have. Why should gun ownership be any different?

    That is the crux of it for me. We willingly accept regulation after restriction after prohibition in practically every area of our lives on a daily basis. How can a responsible gun owner reject reasonable attempts to keep people safe? We'll spend half a day registering a car or waiting for the cable guy but God forbid we put up with a background check when buying a deadly weapon!
    YOU may willingly accept regulation after restriction that certainly does not mean others do.

    I don't reject REASONABLE attempts to keep people safe. But until we seriously address the abysmal mental healthcare system and the revolving door policy of so called justice in this country everything else is a joke and nothing more than feel good BS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There it is. The paradox of government according to its critics. Every day we read that government is incompetent, inefficient, and run by corrupt individuals who can't find their arses with both hands. Yet at some magical time in the future they will be hypercapable of taking away all our guns.
    So super genius, how did they carry it out in Lousiana during Katrina? Illegally, and with the threat of force, or imprisonment, firearms were taken from law abiding citizens whose supposed crime was protecting their own property from looters. Many have never had their illegally confiscated firearms returned and likely never will.

    I don't think anyone is as ridiculous as your premise and believes that instantly and immediately all guns would be confiscated. The point that escapes you is all this is is anoher intrusion into law abiding citizens lives and rights with no real benefit. The Sandy Hook killer, while mentally ill, stole the firearms from his mother to commit the crimes. How do backgrund checks prevent that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because I'm not an expert. I'm a retired firefighter responding on an obscure message board. I never said I had all the answers on the topic. I stated the issued should be studied to address the details you request. I'm sure that would be part of the process.
    Ultimately, if the only thing you're looking for is universal background checks, we're closer on this issue than we may think. I'm not opposed, but I'd like to see how they'll work, who will be affected, the anticipated reduction in crimes and some assurance that this is not just a first step in a far more restrictive plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    That is the crux of it for me. We willingly accept regulation after restriction after prohibition in practically every area of our lives on a daily basis. How can a responsible gun owner reject reasonable attempts to keep people safe? We'll spend half a day registering a car or waiting for the cable guy but God forbid we put up with a background check when buying a deadly weapon!
    The problem is that on both sides of this issue we hear a far stronger, less reasonable end game. On one hand we have the Constitutionalists who believe everyone should be able to carry whatever, whenever, the anti-gun folks use these people as the post child for whom they're fighting. On the other end, we have the people who beleive guns are too hazardous to be in the hands of any American thus any measure toward an all out ban is only a good start. These are the folks who many of us fear gain traction with every failed law. There is middle ground, but both sides need to assure the other that the fringe is just that, so the majority can move forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So super genius, how did they carry it out in Lousiana during Katrina? Illegally, and with the threat of force, or imprisonment, firearms were taken from law abiding citizens whose supposed crime was protecting their own property from looters. Many have never had their illegally confiscated firearms returned and likely never will.
    Brother, as much as I feel we're fighting the same fight, I feel compelled to clarify the Katrina confiscation was done by the NOPD as accounted in numerous sources. To start they'd been known as the most crooked PD in the country, personal rights wasn't their strong suit. They used the situation to stretch their mighty arm of the law and rounded up guns to "prevent" shootings. When NOPD tried to hand those firearms over to the ATF/FBI they were rebuffed and kept at arms length for violating these citizens rights. The Feds wanted nothing to do with this. This is at least how I came to understand the Katrina issue. The Feds told NOPD to return the firearms and good luck staying out of court and NOPD decided to ignore they'd ever done it.

    On the same track it was the dropping of a speedy investigation and firearms return portion of the Federal background check law that had the nation's second largest firearms support organization retract their support, likely leading to it's death.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-07-2014 at 12:15 PM.

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