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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So super genius, how did they carry it out in Lousiana during Katrina? Illegally, and with the threat of force, or imprisonment, firearms were taken from law abiding citizens whose supposed crime was protecting their own property from looters. Many have never had their illegally confiscated firearms returned and likely never will.
    Don't know. I wasn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I don't think anyone is as ridiculous as your premise and believes that instantly and immediately all guns would be confiscated. The point that escapes you is all this is is anoher intrusion into law abiding citizens lives and rights with no real benefit. The Sandy Hook killer, while mentally ill, stole the firearms from his mother to commit the crimes. How do backgrund checks prevent that?
    They don't prevent it. Not performing a background check has the same result. Is that okay for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    YOU may willingly accept regulation after restriction that certainly does not mean others do.

    I don't reject REASONABLE attempts to keep people safe. But until we seriously address the abysmal mental healthcare system and the revolving door policy of so called justice in this country everything else is a joke and nothing more than feel good BS.
    Let's face it. We ALL accept plenty of government mandated restrictions, prohibitions, etc. Maybe "willingly" was a poor choice of words, but we all (including you) DO accept them. Where is the outcry over any of these restrictions other than guns? Where are the bumper stickers? Why don't candidates argue over them?

    I agree that fixing the criminal justice system needs to get done. Along with fixing a social system that glorifies the breakdown of traditional families. Along with an education system that too often doesn't educate, but babysits instead. I don't pretend that a whole bunch of laws aimed at gun ownership will solve the problem of gun violence. We won't soon address anyof these issues because the cottage industry of professional victims and protesters will cry racism and sexism loud enough and often enough to scare away the lawmakers. Then we could all get back to arguing about gun control.

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    I am actually ok with universal background checks. They must follow these guidelines though:
    1 - No record of the check can be maintained by anyone
    2 - They must be able to be completed within 1 hour so as not to infringe on the right of a person who meets the requirements to purchase a firearm
    3 - If a person is found to fail a background check, they are immediately put in custody for trying to illegally purchase a firearm (as the current forms in PA clearly state will happen)

    Here are the problems:
    1 - We all know that the government keeps records as they wish and there is no recourse if they are found in violation of that
    2 - Any delay over an hour will be blamed on "poor technical connections" or "computer problems". If you apply, and are not denied within an hour, it should be yours. The burden must be on the government to prove why not.
    3 - How many failed background checks were prosecuted last year? If I remember right, it was around 1%. What good are the checks if they don't deter the person from purchasing a weapon and only let them move on to other sources. If they try to purchase one and are not eligible, they should be prosecute. Someone having something on their record incorrectly can be fixed through the proceedings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    I am actually ok with universal background checks. They must follow these guidelines though:
    1 - No record of the check can be maintained by anyone
    2 - They must be able to be completed within 1 hour so as not to infringe on the right of a person who meets the requirements to purchase a firearm
    3 - If a person is found to fail a background check, they are immediately put in custody for trying to illegally purchase a firearm (as the current forms in PA clearly state will happen)

    Here are the problems:
    1 - We all know that the government keeps records as they wish and there is no recourse if they are found in violation of that
    2 - Any delay over an hour will be blamed on "poor technical connections" or "computer problems". If you apply, and are not denied within an hour, it should be yours. The burden must be on the government to prove why not.
    3 - How many failed background checks were prosecuted last year? If I remember right, it was around 1%. What good are the checks if they don't deter the person from purchasing a weapon and only let them move on to other sources. If they try to purchase one and are not eligible, they should be prosecute. Someone having something on their record incorrectly can be fixed through the proceedings.
    No records?
    One hour?

    Again I ask: why so stringent in this one area? Do you (or anyone) insist on this standard in ANY other area of your dealings with various levels of government? I doubt it. I sure don't see or hear it.

    And why would a law abiding citizen object to record keeping?

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    And why would a law abiding citizen object to record keeping?
    How about we ask the law abiding citizens of Louisiana that had their legal fire arms confiscated. By cops using, wait for it, records! Amazing how that happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    How about we ask the law abiding citizens of Louisiana that had their legal fire arms confiscated. By cops using, wait for it, records! Amazing how that happens.
    BING FREAKING O!!

    It's amazing how quickly people forget, or choose to ignore, this simple fact.

    RECORDS LEAD TO ILLEGAL CONFISCATION.
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    This is undeniably a valid point. It is but one instance in which a natural disaster was used as a reason to confiscate weapons. There have been many other instances in many other places in which this has not happenend. Should we use one example, just ONE, to make the case against restrictions on gun ownership? Should we use one example of gun violence, just ONE even though there are thousands per year, to make the case for applying restrictions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    This is undeniably a valid point. It is but one instance in which a natural disaster was used as a reason to confiscate weapons. There have been many other instances in many other places in which this has not happenend. Should we use one example, just ONE, to make the case against restrictions on gun ownership? Should we use one example of gun violence, just ONE even though there are thousands per year, to make the case for applying restrictions?
    That's a very good point. If I were to make the reverse I would make the case that all private ownership of guns should be tightly regulated or banned because one old man shot someone to death in a theater because the victim of the shooting was texting. Or another old man pulled a gun on an eight year old girl selling girl scout cookies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    This is undeniably a valid point. It is but one instance in which a natural disaster was used as a reason to confiscate weapons. There have been many other instances in many other places in which this has not happenend. Should we use one example, just ONE, to make the case against restrictions on gun ownership? Should we use one example of gun violence, just ONE even though there are thousands per year, to make the case for applying restrictions?
    Yet you judge EVERY gun owner because of the actions of a very, very few. With every single one of them breaking numerous laws already on the books.
    You can pretend otherwise, but your continued posts on restrictions on the legal gun owner speaks volumes...

    hy·poc·ri·sy
    hiˈpäkrisē
    noun
    1.
    the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense
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    SC, you toss out this universal background checks like its the holy grail. Yet I have provided 2 reasons it will fail, and fail it will. Your response, "it will get worked out in the details". Please expound on this. As this is the very same government that can't keep, maintain, or update a national criminal data base.
    Worse, when there is such a data base, the government can't even guarantee even the basics of security. As an example I give you VA medical records and the latest, the Obamacare fiasco.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    SC, you toss out this universal background checks like its the holy grail. Yet I have provided 2 reasons it will fail, and fail it will.
    There are probably more than two reasons why it will succeed. Other nations have models that work better than what we have in America. I'm sure they would be a good starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Worse, when there is such a data base, the government can't even guarantee even the basics of security. As an example I give you VA medical records and the latest, the Obamacare fiasco.
    I counter that with the Target stores getting hacked.

    Once again we have the paradox that government is incompetent so let's not do anything. You work for the government, are you part of that incompetent entity as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    BING FREAKING O!!

    It's amazing how quickly people forget, or choose to ignore, this simple fact.

    RECORDS LEAD TO ILLEGAL CONFISCATION.
    The history books are littered with tyrannical leaders doing just that, disarming their citizens. The very same history books spell out very clearly the death, destruction, and civil liberty violations of the people in those country. Hell, the rest of the world in some cases.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    This is undeniably a valid point. It is but one instance in which a natural disaster was used as a reason to confiscate weapons. There have been many other instances in many other places in which this has not happenend. Should we use one example, just ONE, to make the case against restrictions on gun ownership? Should we use one example of gun violence, just ONE even though there are thousands per year, to make the case for applying restrictions?
    Actually Katrina was the "Perfect Storm" for gun control advocates. It gave them the perfect opportunity to pull off gun confiscation from legal gun owners with no justification at all other than some made up nonsense. It is not the first circumstance of gun confiscation from law abiding citizens for dubious reasons and believe me it will not be the last.

    I am no fan of David Koresh but that whole Waco debacle began on the premise of weapons violations. The end result of that was 76 people killed, including children. Look at Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge. Through a vendetta brought on by a neighbor that involved the FBI, ATF and US Marshalls and phony weapons violations were brought against Randy Weaver. In the end this cost Weaver the lives of his son and wife. His wife was shot and killed by an FBI sniper while holding her baby in her arms. In the end the US government settled out of court to the tune of $3.1 million dollars and of course, admitted no guilt in this.

    The problems are while we have the major highlighted events like above, it is the hardly makes a blip on the radar confiscations and doors being kicked in in the middle of the night that should worry all of us, you included.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-08-2014 at 10:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There are probably more than two reasons why it will succeed. Other nations have models that work better than what we have in America. I'm sure they would be a good starting point.

    Well what, and who are they? Hell Nazi Germany was very good at this very same thing. Lets look closer, Chicago, and New York. How'd them work for ya...

    I counter that with the Target stores getting hacked.

    Once again we have the paradox that government is incompetent so let's not do anything. You work for the government, are you part of that incompetent entity as well?
    Well part of this is true. But you are advocating a government universal background check. So in the spirit of honest debate, I used government examples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Well what, and who are they? Hell Nazi Germany was very good at this very same thing. Lets look closer, Chicago, and New York. How'd them work for ya...
    Japan for starters. Most European nations for others. The number of firearms related homicides are negligible.

    Chicago and New York suffer from the migration of weapons bought in nearby areas with lax gun laws.
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    If a strong gun control / registration policy had been in place during colonial times, we would still be an English colony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Japan for starters. Most European nations for others. The number of firearms related homicides are negligible.
    And lets look at Japan, damn near completely defenseless and 100% dependent on the U.S. to maintain the sovereignty. But it wasn't all that long ago, these very same people where forced into world war 2. By who, I know, tyrannical leadership that could do with what they want with an unarmed, subjugated populace.
    Chicago and New York suffer from the migration of weapons bought in nearby areas with lax gun laws.
    A fine excuse, until you factor in these states also have background checks and the federal handgun waiting period.
    Another example of laws already on the books being broken. By guess who, the very same criminals that you expect to miraculously find the light and surrender their illegally obtained guns due to some frivolous background check, new law, or ban.
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    It's funny that the places with the strictest gun control laws, leaving law abiding citizens virtual sitting ducks, having the highest gun violence. Yet out here in the sticks where you would be hard pressed to find a home without at least one firearm, if not a dozen or more, our murder rate is virtually non-existent.

    Tell me how you explain that? And no, because of population differences the numbers of murders wouldn't be the same, but percentages should be if guns alone are the cause of gun violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Japan, damn near completely defenseless and 100% dependent on the U.S. to maintain the sovereignty.
    I am discussing firearms policy and the homicide rate as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    A fine excuse, until you factor in these states also have background checks and the federal handgun waiting period.
    Another example of laws already on the books being broken. By guess who, the very same criminals that you expect to miraculously find the light and surrender their illegally obtained guns due to some frivolous background check, new law, or ban.
    I am not one of those that allows the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I'm willing to examine the policy and make changes accordingly. Your argument immediately dissolves (and I knew it would) into tyranny.

    Hate to break the news to you, all the folks in the world are going to last long against a tyrant armed with the full force of the US military. But keep dreaming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It's funny that the places with the strictest gun control laws, leaving law abiding citizens virtual sitting ducks, having the highest gun violence. Yet out here in the sticks where you would be hard pressed to find a home without at least one firearm, if not a dozen or more, our murder rate is virtually non-existent.
    The highest murder rates in the US are in the South and Midwest.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Tell me how you explain that? And no, because of population differences the numbers of murders wouldn't be the same, but percentages should be if guns alone are the cause of gun violence.
    I just did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I am discussing firearms policy and the homicide rate as a result.

    If that's the case,what is your response to FyredUp's point?

    I am not one of those that allows the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I'm willing to examine the policy and make changes accordingly. Your argument immediately dissolves (and I knew it would) into tyranny.

    Hate to break the news to you, all the folks in the world are going to last long against a tyrant armed with the full force of the US military. But keep dreaming.
    Tthat's it, that's all you have? Where is the substance of your argument?
    What would you call what happened in Louisiana? How about a little history, Japan, Germany, or all those countries in Africa destroyed by the very same tyranny you are blind to?
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    A Harvard Study titled "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?" looks at figures for "intentional deaths" throughout continental Europe and juxtaposes them with the U.S. to show that more gun control does not necessarily lead to lower death rates or violent crime.
    Because the findings so clearly demonstrate that more gun laws may in fact increase death rates, the study says that "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths" is wrong.
    For example, when the study shows numbers for Eastern European gun ownership and corresponding murder rates, it is readily apparent that less guns to do not mean less death. In Russia, where the rate of gun ownership is 4,000 per 100,000 inhabitants, the murder rate was 20.52 per 100,000 in 2002. That same year in Finland, where the rater of gun ownership is exceedingly higher--39,000 per 100,000--the murder rate was almost nill, at 1.98 per 100,000.
    Looking at Western Europe, the study shows that Norway "has far and away Western Europe's highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate."
    And when the study focuses on intentional deaths by looking at the U.S. vs Continental Europe, the findings are no less revealing. The U.S., which is so often labeled as the most violent nation in the world by gun control proponents, comes in 7th--behind Russia, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine--in murders. America also only ranks 22nd in suicides.
    The murder rate in Russia, where handguns are banned, is 30.6; the rate in the U.S. is 7.8.
    The authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should "at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide)." But after intense study the authors conclude "those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world."
    In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Tthat's it, that's all you have? Where is the substance of your argument?
    What would you call what happened in Louisiana? How about a little history, Japan, Germany, or all those countries in Africa destroyed by the very same tyranny you are blind to?
    I could easily make the opposite case. There are no gun laws in Somalia. I don't see anyone wanting to use them as an example of firearms policy.

    But hey, at least they don't live under a tyrannical dictator.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    A Harvard Study titled "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?" looks at figures for "intentional deaths" throughout continental Europe and juxtaposes them with the U.S. to show that more gun control does not necessarily lead to lower death rates or violent crime.
    When was the last time there was a mass shooting of the type we see in America on an infrequent basis?
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    When was the last time there was a mass shooting of the type we see in America on an infrequent basis?
    Yet they continue to occur in Europe and around the world? Using your logic, how can this be possible?
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    I could easily make the opposite case. There are no gun laws in Somalia. I don't see anyone wanting to use them as an example of firearms policy.
    Your point is invalid, they have no government...

    Explain Chicago to me, with their myriad of gun laws and outright ban?
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