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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    If it weren't for the easily accessible gun pipeline from out of state, NYC might actually have less gun crime.
    So if current laws when't being broken with this "easily accessible", of which I would like you to provide a source that this in fact the root cause by the way, there would be less crime?
    Some acceptable facts would be:
    Proof felons are able to purchase guns out of state.
    Proof the 30 day federal waiting period for handguns is being ignored.
    Proof that there are no federally required background checks being performed out of state.

    What does "a well regulated militia" mean to YOU?
    I knew while posting you would not have the ability to answer my question concerning being infringed upon. It is usually the case when one has no substance other then their own emotion when arguing facts.
    But I will answer yours. A militia is of the people. I am people. I can guarantee I am well regulated. Expounding on SC's post, my guns are registered with me and they are regularly inspected.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 02-10-2014 at 06:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm betting there are parents in Littleton, CO and Newtown, CT that would disagree with you.

    I'd love for you to get up in front of that group and say, "no need to change anything, everything is fine."
    I could, for one very simple fact, every single gun law passed prior too, and since would have not prevented the tragedy.
    Passing laws for the sake of passing laws to feel good is akin to p i s s ing on a forest fire.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Maybe the only gun crime in your area is the illegal sale of guns to criminals in Chicago.
    Show me proof of one case of a law abiding, legal, gun owner in my area buying guns to transport to Chicago to sell. My bet is you won't find any. Most people with gun around here buy them for one, or all of the following reasons, hunting, target shooting, trap shooting, or self defense. Many have guns that were there grandfather's hunting guns.

    I don't disbelieve you that guns come into NYC from outside the city. But machine guns are not coming from gun shows. A machine gun owner is responsible for a paper trail every time that weapon is sold and a tax payment to the feds. No one is going to sell a legally owned machine gun in an illegal deal because it could be tracked right back to them.

    You want universal laws and universal enforcement. SC wants universal laws and each locality to decide punishment. With the rampant corrupton in some places that would allow for no penalties at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Show me proof of one case of a law abiding, legal, gun owner in my area buying guns to transport to Chicago to sell.
    When Cory Booker was mayor of Newark he addressed that issue. The majority of the guns used to commit crimes in his city were from out of state.

    Here is a recent article that addresses what's being called the:

    Iron Pipeline.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm betting there are parents in Littleton, CO and Newtown, CT that would disagree with you.

    I'd love for you to get up in front of that group and say, "no need to change anything, everything is fine."
    Both cases involved mentally disturbed individuals that gun laws would have had no effect on. Nice try.

    How about you get up in front of Randy Weaver and explain to him how having his unarmed wife executed by an FBI sniper while holding their baby in her arms and his son killed by federal agents is justified by a phony trumped up gun charge? Or the relatives of the children killed in Waco because of a botched federal firearms raid? The facts are David Koresh could have easily been arrested dozens of times on the streets of Waco, but they chose to assault the compound and in the end 76 people died.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    When Cory Booker was mayor of Newark he addressed that issue. The majority of the guns used to commit crimes in his city were from out of state.

    Here is a recent article that addresses what's being called the:

    Iron Pipeline.
    First of all, straw purchases are illegal. Thus the persons buying those guns are not law abiding legal gun owners. Yet nothing you propose would stop those purchases.

    Remember the 2 firefighters shot and killed in the ambush? Thse guns were purchased in a straw purchase by some lady friend of the murderer. How would you plan have stopped that? She was legally able to buy the guns, he was not.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Don, existing laws are already being broken in this so called "iron pipeline"? You don't say.....
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And most guns are not purchased for killing people.

    Target shooting. Hunting. Defense.

    And yes, in some cases, but few, very few, killing people.

    So that argument doesn't hold water.

    As far as middle ground, I'm more than willing to continue to restrict fully automatic weapons. I'm more than happy to continue to restrict felons.

    But to restrict based on a history, or lack of history of "responsible behavior" (Whatever the hell that is)? No. Restrict guns that are not fully automatic and do not meet the criteria for assault weapons, but "look like" assault weapons? Hell no. And limit the size of magazines? No.

    Those are all infringements on our constitutional rights and will not do anything for the problem, especially when the vast majority of murders are NOT committed using guns.

    The mental health restriction scares the hell out of me as it could easily be abused, assuming it could even make it past HIPPA. which right now it can't.

    Where we are right now is fine.
    The vast majority of murders are not committed using guns? That non-fact has already been debunked on this forum. Hang it up already!

    Why are you hung up om murder? What about the non lethal shootings? Do they not count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They would have that right, but the fact is that the kind of regulation that you are talking about would have done nothing to prevent those incidents.

    Sometimes bad things happen to good people.
    Bad things happen to good people? Like fires? Why then do we fight them? Shouldn't we just say, "Oh well too bad"? "Sorry for your misfortune?" Or do we take all reasonable measures to fight the fire?

    And where we are right now is NOT fine! Maybe YOU are fine. A whole lot of people are anything but.

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    Why are you hung up om murder? What about the non lethal shootings? Do they not count?
    Non-lethal and suicides are quickly jumped on by the anti-gun crowd. It has nothing to do with protecting children or saving society, but everything to do with how it skews the data. Making guns look like the anti-Christ to those sheep unwilling to fact check for themselves.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Bad things happen to good people? Like fires? Why then do we fight them? Shouldn't we just say, "Oh well too bad"? "Sorry for your misfortune?" Or do we take all reasonable measures to fight the fire?

    And where we are right now is NOT fine! Maybe YOU are fine. A whole lot of people are anything but.
    Perfectly stated. I won't restate other than to add the difference is that I believe the issue should be examined without folks frothing at the mouth that any changes in the system are going to immediately lead to confiscation.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Don, existing laws are already being broken in this so called "iron pipeline"? You don't say.....
    Because of lax gun laws in other locales.

    You missed that point.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because of lax gun laws in other locales.

    You missed that point.
    What lax laws are you talking about; The mandated federal background check? The federal mandated 30 day waiting period for handguns? The Illegality of straw purchases?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Bad things happen to good people? Like fires? Why then do we fight them? Shouldn't we just say, "Oh well too bad"? "Sorry for your misfortune?" Or do we take all reasonable measures to fight the fire?

    And where we are right now is NOT fine! Maybe YOU are fine. A whole lot of people are anything but.
    Another horrible strawman argument...
    Like shootings, we arrive at fires after the fact. So with that idiotic comparison, and to follow your logic, when it comes to fires, we would completely ban cooking in the home soon followed by a ban on smoking in the home.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Using Sandy Hook, or other mass shootings really is pointless. As tragic as they where, and don't miss quote me, they where tragic, all occurred in places that specifically banned guns. So no amount of restrictions would have lessened the horror. Why, they where the only one(s) there with a gun. They could shoot, reload and terrorize with impunity. Right up to the moment others responded with, wait for it........guns!!!!
    Does Colorado ban guns? I really don't know but I suspect their gun laws are more liberal than most.

    "No amount of restrictions would have lessened the horror." You don't know that. You may believe it but you don't know it. You may even be right, but you don't know it. Nobody does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I knew while posting you would not have the ability to answer my question concerning being infringed upon. It is usually the case when one has no substance other then their own emotion when arguing facts.
    But I will answer yours. A militia is of the people. I am people. I can guarantee I am well regulated. Expounding on SC's post, my guns are registered with me and they are regularly inspected.
    Infringed upon means to be encroached or tresspassed upon. Encroach means to approach BEYOND ESTABLISHED LIMITS. So we can establish limits without "infringing upon the right to bear arms".

    You say a militia is "of the people"? Where is the rest of the definition. A militia is directly related to a group of people who are trained as soldiers or are subject to be called upon to act as soldiers. Let's not forget the part about being "well regulated". I would think that well regulated could mean "subject to regulations". Is that so far-fetched?
    If you want to throw around definitions, that's fine with me but you don't get to make up your own.

    You guarantee that you are well regulated. By whom exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Show me proof of one case of a law abiding, legal, gun owner in my area buying guns to transport to Chicago to sell. My bet is you won't find any. Most people with gun around here buy them for one, or all of the following reasons, hunting, target shooting, trap shooting, or self defense. Many have guns that were there grandfather's hunting guns.

    I don't disbelieve you that guns come into NYC from outside the city. But machine guns are not coming from gun shows. A machine gun owner is responsible for a paper trail every time that weapon is sold and a tax payment to the feds. No one is going to sell a legally owned machine gun in an illegal deal because it could be tracked right back to them.

    You want universal laws and universal enforcement. SC wants universal laws and each locality to decide punishment. With the rampant corrupton in some places that would allow for no penalties at all.
    I don't have proof. I only suggested it as a possibility because we all know that some people in some places do this. But if people in your area are buying guns to transport and sell in Chicago they would not be, by definition, law abiding legal gun owners, would they?

    You've mentioned law abiding gun owners several times. As have others. The type of legislation I support is aimed at the NONLEGAL (criminal) gun buyers and sellers. I have no interest in banning gun ownership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Does Colorado ban guns? I really don't know but I suspect their gun laws are more liberal than most.
    Actually the movie theater/mall had a sign stating "this premise bans guns.
    "No amount of restrictions would have lessened the horror." You don't know that. You may believe it but you don't know it. You may even be right, but you don't know it. Nobody does.
    True, I don't in fact know this. But in reading and researching the myriad of information on this and others, I have yet to read any report stating if we would have done "x", "y" wouldn't have happened. So I stand by my statement.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Non-lethal and suicides are quickly jumped on by the anti-gun crowd. It has nothing to do with protecting children or saving society, but everything to do with how it skews the data. Making guns look like the anti-Christ to those sheep unwilling to fact check for themselves.
    Are you saying that gun violence does not count unless it's murder? Are you saying the only gun crimes we should protect children (and society) against is murder? Are you saying the non lethal gun crimes are all right?
    What the hell are you saying here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Another horrible strawman argument...
    Like shootings, we arrive at fires after the fact. So with that idiotic comparison, and to follow your logic, when it comes to fires, we would completely ban cooking in the home soon followed by a ban on smoking in the home.
    You've gone way off the tracks here. My point is that we don't just throw up our hands and give up when bad things happen. We try to take reasonable measures to mitigate the problem. It was an analogy less than a comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Don, existing laws are already being broken in this so called "iron pipeline"? You don't say.....
    I know, the shocking fact that existing laws are already being broken isn't reason to step up enforcement of them, it is reason to pass another gun law that sadly won't be enforced properly either. All this is is a never ending loop of hopeless and useless legislation because none of the laws already on the books are enforced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Bad things happen to good people? Like fires? Why then do we fight them? Shouldn't we just say, "Oh well too bad"? "Sorry for your misfortune?" Or do we take all reasonable measures to fight the fire?

    And where we are right now is NOT fine! Maybe YOU are fine. A whole lot of people are anything but.
    Not the point at all. Enforce the laws on the books. If people are making straw purcases to bring guns into NYC they are criminals and laws on the books already can and should deal with that.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Perfectly stated. I won't restate other than to add the difference is that I believe the issue should be examined without folks frothing at the mouth that any changes in the system are going to immediately lead to confiscation.
    Enforce the laws in place currently. Your universal back ground checks would do nothing to stop the "iron pipeline" if those making the purchases are legally allowed to buy guns. The act of purchasing them for someone else is illegal but no one making the purchase and getting checked is going to say that is what they are doing. So if they come back clean the sale goes through. Now what Wile E. Coyote super genius?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    True, I don't in fact know this. But in reading and researching the myriad of information on this and others, I have yet to read any report stating if we would have done "x", "y" wouldn't have happened. So I stand by my statement.
    Holy Crap! The theatre had a sign? A SIGN? That's you arguement against restrictions on the selling of guns? I am shocked that sign didn't work. I guess nothing will ever work!
    You stated earlier that every place that had a mass shooting had wepons bans in effect. Now you say you don't know about Colorado. Which is it?

    So the reports didn't say "If we would have done x, y wouldn't have happened". Maybe that's because the reports can't responsibly deal in pure CONJECTURE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because of lax gun laws in other locales.

    You missed that point.
    Federal gun laws are federal gun laws and MUST be followed no matter where the purchase is made. Straw purchases violate federal gun law. Now what? Good Lord this is so easy.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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