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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Isn't it also conjecture that the government will come take your guns?

    Hint: The answer is yes.
    The only conjecture is will they take mine or someone else's. There is a track record of illegal raids and confiscation of firearms already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Many guns purchased are pistols, meant to be carried by the owner. These are carried for "defense". Question...when you are being taught to fire a pistol as defense...are you taught to shoot to wound or shoot to kill?

    Call it defense all you want....that gun's purpose is to kill the attacker.
    I am being taught to survive an attack by a CRIMINAL. If shooting them, and killing them, is the result of their illegal act then so be it. That doesn't mean I am looking for a fight, in fact for me it is just the opposite, I use situational awareness to hopefully keep me out of a fight/danger and to make a tactical withdrawal with my family and friends before a confrontation occurs. I pray that I never have to point a loaded gun at anyone ever. But I will not be harmed, or allow my family to be harmed, by someone intent to harm us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Solid and complete, for the law abiding citizen. What of those that won't follow the law?
    Stop, your silly logic that criminals won't obey yet another law is simply too realistic for them to debate against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I didn't say that. Since you agree it won't make any difference there is no harm in them.

    Unless you launch off on some tyranny rant again.
    Maybe you can launch off again on a rant of how more laws that criminals won't obey, added to the laws they already don't obey, will make us safer. Seriously you can't be that hopelessly ignorant.

    Laws are followed by law abiding citizens that are either just good people or fear the punishment attached to a criminal act. Criminals are law breakers fully aware of the risk, AND how completely phucked up and overloaded our "justice" system is and are willing to take the risk. All another unenforced, or unpunished, law does is give them more to chuckle about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    But in all these mass shootings, what of this process would have prevented it? Or those in the future?
    What of the mental health component?
    Maybe, maybe not. We do know the current system didn't prevent them from happening. We also know those types of incidents are almost non-existent in other countries. Maybe we could learn something from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    But in all these mass shootings, what of this process would have prevented it? Or those in the future?
    What of the mental health component?
    Maybe, maybe not. We do know the current system didn't prevent them from happening. We also know those types of incidents are almost non-existent in other countries. Maybe we could learn something from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. We do know the current system didn't prevent them from happening. We also know those types of incidents are almost non-existent in other countries. Maybe we could learn something from them.
    Do you really want t go down the road of emulating other countries again? that didn't end so well for you last time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. We do know the current system didn't prevent them from happening. We also know those types of incidents are almost non-existent in other countries. Maybe we could learn something from them.
    Well 2 big problems with that: 1) they don't have a Constitution like we do. 2) Every country that has banned the ability of its populace to defend its self, violent crime has skyrocketed. (this was proven with out a shadow of a doubt the last time this was brought up)

    So lets review this track record of failure:
    Outright bans-fail
    Various laws-fail
    numerous restrictions-fail
    cute signs banning guns at establishments-fail
    gun free facilities-fail

    What haven't we tried:
    strict enforcement the current laws we have now
    mandatory sentencing of those that use a gun to commit a crime
    making that sentencing immune from plea bargaining

    what has worked in various locations:
    conceal carry, castle doctrine, stand your ground
    armed citizens at the right place at the right time

    So what it boils down to; to we continue to rehash the same failures over and over again and a gain or do we take a serious look at what works and expand on it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    ...what has worked in various locations:
    conceal carry, castle doctrine, stand your ground
    armed citizens at the right place at the right time
    ...
    Granted....we are talking hypothetical on these two incidents....

    If the guy in the movie theatre that was shot because of his texting had a gun....there would probably be more people dead/hurt than just him.

    If the 4 kids in the vehicle with loud music had guns...there would probably be more people dead/hurt than just the 1.


    How is that "working"?

    Seems to me that more people having more guns would have been a worse outcome.
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    This is from the liberal mouthpiece, NBC:

    By Pete Williams, NBC News chief justice correspondent

    Gun violence in America has fallen dramatically over the past two decades, and the number of murders committed with a firearm is down too, though guns are still by far the leading type of crime weapon, according to a new report from the Justice Department.

    As for where crime guns came from, the study notes that less than two percent of convicted inmates reported buying their weapons at gun shows or flea markets. The highest number, 40 percent, said the guns came from a family member or a friend. About 37 percent said the weapons were stolen or obtained from an illegal source. The rest say the guns were bought at a retail store or pawn shop.

    Murders committed with a gun dropped 39 percent to 11,101 in 2011, from a high of 18,253 in 1993, according to the report.

    Other crimes committed with guns were down even more sharply — from 1.53 million in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011, a drop of 70 percent, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    Around 70 percent of murders were committed with a firearm, and of those, the vast majority involved a handgun -- fluctuating between 70-80 percent.

    The report is strictly factual and offers no analysis about the reasons for the decline in gun violence.



    So yes, I admit, I was wrong about guns not be the leading weapon used in murders, however the DOJ in another report states that the majority of those murders involve gangs, and illegally acquired weapons that would not be impacted be universal background checks. This report even states that the criminals either stole weapons or got legally acquired weapons from family or friends at least 77% of the time.

    So gun violence is actually on the decrease. That's an inconvenient fact for liberals.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-11-2014 at 09:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Many guns purchased are pistols, meant to be carried by the owner. These are carried for "defense". Question...when you are being taught to fire a pistol as defense...are you taught to shoot to wound or shoot to kill?

    Call it defense all you want....that gun's purpose is to kill the attacker.
    The purpose is to defend yourself, and yes, that often means taking a shot that will kill, not disable your attacker.

    Sop the option is not to allow citizen's to carry guns and instead have them be injured or killed by the criminal?

    Is that really your argument?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The only conjecture is will they take mine or someone else's. There is a track record of illegal raids and confiscation of firearms already.
    We are talking about an administration that has told his own DOJ to ignore certain immigration laws.

    We are talking about an administration that has filed suit against states who are trying to protect borders by enforcing immigration laws that the feds have decided not to enforce.

    We are talking about an admin that has told the DOJ ignored voter ID laws and not prosecute some very obvious violations.

    We are talking about an admin that has illegally told insurance companies not to enforce to provisions of Obamacare, has illegally pushed back the employer mandate not once, but now twice as of yesterday to 2016, and has now as of yesterday told employers that if they decide to reduce their workforce they must under penalty of perjury, give a reason to the IRS as to why they, A PRIVATE BUSINNESS making a business decision, made that decision.

    And you ask why I don't trust the admin and why I have my doubts that they will not illegally and unconstitutionally reshape any gun legislation to meet their liberal agenda once it becomes law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Well 2 big problems with that: 1) they don't have a Constitution like we do. 2) Every country that has banned the ability of its populace to defend its self, violent crime has skyrocketed. (this was proven with out a shadow of a doubt the last time this was brought up)

    So lets review this track record of failure:
    Outright bans-fail
    Various laws-fail
    numerous restrictions-fail
    cute signs banning guns at establishments-fail
    gun free facilities-fail
    Yet other countries don't seem to have the problem of mass shootings like we do in the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Yet other countries don't seem to have the problem of mass shootings like we do in the US.
    Yet the data that I posted from of all places, liberal mouthpiece NBC, clearly indicates that gun violence has significantly decreased?

    In fact, gun murders have dropped 39% since 1993.

    How could that be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Granted....we are talking hypothetical on these two incidents....
    Speaking of which, I didn't know the court cases had concluded and a verdict met. So yes, very hypothetical.
    If the guy in the movie theatre that was shot because of his texting had a gun....there would probably be more people dead/hurt than just him.
    As of right now, it appears to by just murder, not a mass shooting.
    If the 4 kids in the vehicle with loud music had guns...there would probably be more people dead/hurt than just the 1.
    As of now, it appears to be just murder, not a mass shooting.

    How is that "working"?
    Its working just fine unless in the last 12 hours murder no longer became murder. Funny, I guess I always thought the court system was there to figure this stuff out. You must have other beliefs.
    Seems to me that more people having more guns would have been a worse outcome.
    Based on what, your personal prejudice against guns? Seriously, throw me a bone here, what makes you believe it would be worse? Neither of these where a mass shooting situation.
    How is what working? Your augments are swiftly falling into ludicrous. Taken on just face value, neither of these where a mass shooting. As of now, they are nothing more then murder committed by a gun. The very same exact thing that happens day in and day out in cities with the strictest gun laws on the books. So if you want to at least pretend to make a sensible argument, try with comparing apples to apples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yet the data that I posted from of all places, liberal mouthpiece NBC, clearly indicates that gun violence has significantly decreased?

    In fact, gun murders have dropped 39% since 1993.

    How could that be?
    That irony of you posting from NBC is pretty funny. You're like moonbat on the "Obama lying" thread.

    The US still has one of the highest homicide rates by firearm in the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    How is what working? Your augments are swiftly falling into ludicrous. Taken on just face value, neither of these where a mass shooting. As of now, they are nothing more then murder committed by a gun. The very same exact thing that happens day in and day out in cities with the strictest gun laws on the books. So if you want to at least pretend to make a sensible argument, try with comparing apples to apples.
    As I pointed out. The highest murder rates are in states that are mostly rural.

    Believing this is only an urban problem is detailing ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Yet other countries don't seem to have the problem of mass shootings like we do in the US.
    Mass stabbing are all the rage. Suicide bombs are all the rage. Even sarin gas attacks where in vogue for a brief period.
    If some nut case is bent on killing a large number of people, all the bans, restrictions, or background checks doesn't appear to be a deterrent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As I pointed out. The highest murder rates are in states that are mostly rural.

    Believing this is only an urban problem is detailing ignorance.
    No, but the fact they have the strictest laws, to no avail is extremely telling. To ignore that speaks volumes of ones inability to accept facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Mass stabbing are all the rage. Suicide bombs are all the rage. Even sarin gas attacks where in vogue for a brief period.
    If some nut case is bent on killing a large number of people, all the bans, restrictions, or background checks doesn't appear to be a deterrent.
    Where are mass stabbings all the rage. I'll take my chances with a nutcase trying to stab a dozen people over a nutcase with a semi-auto or automatic rifle and 30 rd magazine any day.

    The others are mostly terrorist attacks. That's a different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    No, but the fact they have the strictest laws, to no avail is extremely telling. To ignore that speaks volumes of ones inability to accept facts.
    It's already been discussed on how many of those weapons get to areas with strict gun laws. They typically get there from areas with lax or no gun laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That irony of you posting from NBC is pretty funny. You're like moonbat on the "Obama lying" thread.

    The US still has one of the highest homicide rates by firearm in the world.
    We also have far more guns per capita than any other nation in the world.

    As far as quoting from NBC, yes, I did. You like to spout out about how biased FOX is, well, here's the data from your own mouthpiece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As I pointed out. The highest murder rates are in states that are mostly rural.

    Believing this is only an urban problem is detailing ignorance.
    Really?

    Here's some data from the National center for the Victims of Crime:

    •Metropolitan cities had a murder and nonnegligent manslaughter rate known to law enforcement of 5.0 per 100,000 persons. Cities outside metropolitan areas had a murder and nonnegligent manslaughter rate of 3.6 per 100,000 persons while non-metropolitan counties had a rate of 3.2 per 100,000 persons.[3]

    Here's a tidbit from the DOJ:

    Although most violent crimes in urban (60%), suburban (68%), and rural (70%) areas were committed without a weapon, firearm usage in the commission of a violent crime was higher in urban areas when compared to suburban or rural areas (12% urban versus 9% suburban and 8% rural).

    I'm sure that you'll find data that supports your points as well, as data can be skewed in many different ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    Here's some data from the National center for the Victims of Crime:

    •Metropolitan cities had a murder and nonnegligent manslaughter rate known to law enforcement of 5.0 per 100,000 persons. Cities outside metropolitan areas had a murder and nonnegligent manslaughter rate of 3.6 per 100,000 persons while non-metropolitan counties had a rate of 3.2 per 100,000 persons.[3]
    I said states. There are 50 of them. You cited a different data point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then they are doing something illegal and will be prevented from owning a firearm via the legal process.

    Will it stop all of them? No, but it makes the acquisition more difficult.
    Apparently some people will only accept laws that work 100% of the time. Otherwise they don't want to bother with pesky laws.

    But only when it comes to gun control! In every other area of life they are perfectly fine with laws that don't work 100%. Some people steal. Some commit sexual assault or rape. Some people sell drugs. No law stops 100% of these crimes. Yet no one proposes throwing all the laws that prohibit those things off the books. I challenge any member of this forum to go tell their wives, daughters, mothers, etc that laws against rape aren't working so we should just give up. There were laws on the books against rape. New laws were passed that allowed for DNA testing and DNA databases. The attempt was made to strenfthen the existing laws. This is a reasonable action to take. Why should it be any different for gun control laws?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    Why should it be any different for gun control laws?
    Cause, 'Murica and freedom....that's why. And black helicopters. And tyrants.

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