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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Uh, if Zimmerman broke off contact and was heading back to his car, then it's on Trayvon. ESPECIALLY if HE initiated PHYSICAL CONTACT. I can follow someone all day and they have NO right to physical contact. (not that I would) Trayvon had his phone and was texting that girl, so he had a way to report what was happening.
    All these facts do nothing but get in the way of a good racial narrative.

    And I would bet every dollar that I have that the DOJ will bring charges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    All these facts do nothing but get in the way of a good racial narrative.

    And I would bet every dollar that I have that the DOJ will bring charges.
    I'd take that bet. They don't have anything pointing to a racial motivation. Zimmerman's own ethnicity won't play well in a race only fight over that case, not to mention his previous work involved with helping black youth. He might have been stupid, pumped up on false security (gun) and even possibly a vigilante but racist? Not likely to gain real traction. Not to mention the cliche it would be for the DOJ to bring this up given the Presidents' own ethnicity and his propensity to stick his foot in his mouth before getting all the facts. I think he's done with this one and that means so is the DOJ. Then again, I could be wrong...

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    I agree with my Brother from MidCoast Maine...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    This we agree on, but at the current time, there was/is no law preventing any of the known actions Zimmerman took. While this appears to have gone "bad", if good people are in fear of doing something and everyone "stays out of it", we all will be a little less safe.

    Much as the police hate to admit it, the US cannot afford to have everyone say "not my problem" whenever they see potential or actual criminal activity. Similarly, we the FD can't afford to have the citizens ignore their neighbors. Heck if it weren't for decent neighbors some places likely would have no chance of surviving a home regardless of their FD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    Consequently... if Trayvon kept walking, or chosen a different route, no confrontation could have occurred.
    johnsb likes this.
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    It appears we have all turned into a group of "firehouse lawyers"...
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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    It appears we have all turned into a group of "firehouse lawyers"...
    "Turned into"? Hell I've been a practicing firehouse attorney for over 25 years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I'd take that bet. They don't have anything pointing to a racial motivation. Zimmerman's own ethnicity won't play well in a race only fight over that case, not to mention his previous work involved with helping black youth. He might have been stupid, pumped up on false security (gun) and even possibly a vigilante but racist? Not likely to gain real traction. Not to mention the cliche it would be for the DOJ to bring this up given the Presidents' own ethnicity and his propensity to stick his foot in his mouth before getting all the facts. I think he's done with this one and that means so is the DOJ. Then again, I could be wrong...
    I just can't see Holder resisting the pressure that he will take to bring charges.

    And I fully agree that they basically have nothing, but after all we are dealing with a DOJ that had no issues with a group of Black Panthers in combat garb "hanging out" outside of a polling place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    Martin had the same choice not to double back after he had out run Zimmerman.

    He had the same choice not to push the issue and actually initiate the confrontation.

    The fact is there was zero evidence to indicate that Zimmerman has initiated anything and plenty of evidence to indicate that he had reason to fear for his life.
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    If I am walking some where and some one is OBVIOUSLY following me I am going to find out why. While it may be his right to follow me, it is also my right not to be harrassed if I am doing nothing wrong. When Zimmerman started following Trayvon he was doing nothing wrong, all he was doing was walking through the neighborhood. Not sure about where any of you live, but if walking through the neighborhood is a suspicious act I would be calling the police about 20 times a day on people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If I am walking some where and some one is OBVIOUSLY following me I am going to find out why. While it may be his right to follow me, it is also my right not to be harrassed if I am doing nothing wrong. When Zimmerman started following Trayvon he was doing nothing wrong, all he was doing was walking through the neighborhood. Not sure about where any of you live, but if walking through the neighborhood is a suspicious act I would be calling the police about 20 times a day on people.
    I think you're overlooking the fact that this was a "gated" community. The residents probably pay extra homeowner fees to keep people that don't live there out. When they say TM was not doing anything wrong, that may very well be as far as the law is concerned, but maybe not the homeowners assoc.

    I'm positive that had this been a gaggle of hoodie wearing emo kids cutting through that community, they would have been followed too to make sure that nothing malicious would happen. I'm not saying that was TM's intent either. I am saying that even a guy like you or me should expect to be followed and possibly even questioned if we are in an area that we don't belong.

    How did TM get in? Did he hop a fence? Did he come through the gate after a car passed through? I'm not condoning what GZ did, from all accounts he is a guy who wanted to be a cop but couldn't make it on the force, landed a position as a watchman in a gated community. Those are bad combinations. It just seems to me that with all the speculation, the gated community fact gets overlooked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    The fact is there was zero evidence to indicate that Zimmerman has initiated anything
    Bolshevik.

    He told the police dispatcher he was going to follow Trayvon Martin, and despite instruction to the contrary, he clearly did.

    He needed to be more Paul Blart and less Rambo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Bolshevik.

    He told the police dispatcher he was going to follow Trayvon Martin, and despite instruction to the contrary, he clearly did.

    He needed to be more Paul Blart and less Rambo.
    While I agree with your last sentence, the dispatchers' statement can hardly be called instruction to the contrary. The only two people who ever knew who initiated anything or did anything unlawful was Zimmerman and Martin. We only have one story to go with and a jury found it credible enough, which is our system of justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    No matter how you slice it, (in THIS instance) it take TWO to tango. If Martin didn't assault Zimmerman, he'd have no reason to pull his gun. Yours is a strawman argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    No matter how you slice it, (in THIS instance) it take TWO to tango. If Martin didn't assault Zimmerman, he'd have no reason to pull his gun. Yours is a strawman argument.
    And yours can't be proven as fact. So now what?

    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-17-2013 at 01:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I think you're overlooking the fact that this was a "gated" community. The residents probably pay extra homeowner fees to keep people that don't live there out. When they say TM was not doing anything wrong, that may very well be as far as the law is concerned, but maybe not the homeowners assoc.

    I'm positive that had this been a gaggle of hoodie wearing emo kids cutting through that community, they would have been followed too to make sure that nothing malicious would happen. I'm not saying that was TM's intent either. I am saying that even a guy like you or me should expect to be followed and possibly even questioned if we are in an area that we don't belong.

    How did TM get in? Did he hop a fence? Did he come through the gate after a car passed through? I'm not condoning what GZ did, from all accounts he is a guy who wanted to be a cop but couldn't make it on the force, landed a position as a watchman in a gated community. Those are bad combinations. It just seems to me that with all the speculation, the gated community fact gets overlooked.
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community.. once again nothing would have happened if zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood WATCHMEN.. and not a neighborhood cop or even security.. he was a watchmen


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"



    http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html
    highlighted portion makes it seem like hes tired of calling police(called police 46 times in the previous 2-3 years) or whatever and the problems not going away so he takes it upon himself to stop the subject.. which if you see the other link i provided is not something a neighborhood watchman should be doing...


    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him.. if he followed the directive of the neighborhood watch manual, if he decided not to play hero and just continue to let dispatch know of martins general location from his truck.. this would not have happened... because as a watchman you should know the area you are watching over, as the self-described watch captain you should have even more knowledge of the area..

    its a gated community with 250 town homes, if there's 10 houses on a 100 yard block, that puts it at around 25 blocks worth of houses.. and town homes being fairly skinny with not alot of yard.. i could that number of 10 being maybe 10 on each side of the street or 20 on each block equaling around 10 blocks... there is no reason he should not have been able to give a general perimeter of where the subject ran toward

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And yours can't be proven as fact. So now what?

    No matter how you slice it, no matter what you say, if Zimmerman stays in his car, observes from a safe distance, and keeps the police informed of Trayvons martin's location no confrontation occurs. You can sing, you can dance, you can say strawman all you want, this is the only truth that can't be denied.
    Even that cannot be absolutely factual. Who's to say that Martin didn't already deceide to attack Zimmerman and would have doubled back and attacked him in his car. While highly unlikely you cannot profess to know exactly what would or would not have happened if... It's pure speculation as likely or unlikely as we'd have the scenarios. Again, while I'm in agreement that Zimmerman likely would not have left his car without a gun, even that is not fact. The only facts are what actually took place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community..
    Did they live in the community?
    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"
    I think this will be a big problem in the civil suit for the watch group who knew he often carried while on watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him..
    It was not a request. None of the rest of your "what if's" make a bit of difference as he remained within his lawful rights as far as we know and has been upheld in our system of justice.

    I don't think that given what we know that Martin prior to the confrontation that no one else saw, brought this on himself, but our system remains true to the need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and in this case they had to show Zimmerman was not defending himself from fear of life and/or limb or he was the original aggressor. Again, beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-17-2013 at 07:07 AM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder9volley View Post
    you are aware that he was visiting his dad who lived with his girlfriend.. so im guessing he had a passcode or a key that allowed him entrance into the "gated" community.. once again nothing would have happened if zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood WATCHMEN.. and not a neighborhood cop or even security.. he was a watchmen


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook
    note #10: on the 15th slide
    " Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime.
    Do not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department"

    He has the right to follow. Nowhere does it indicate that he had made any effort to apprehend Martin.



    http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html
    highlighted portion makes it seem like hes tired of calling police(called police 46 times in the previous 2-3 years) or whatever and the problems not going away so he takes it upon himself to stop the subject.. which if you see the other link i provided is not something a neighborhood watchman should be doing...

    Where? He follows. As far as the ***holes comment he simply could be referring to those that have been doing the recent break-ins. Saying that's it's a racial reference is nothing but conjecture.


    if he heeded the request of the dispatcher not to keep following him.. if he followed the directive of the neighborhood watch manual, if he decided not to play hero and just continue to let dispatch know of martins general location from his truck.. this would not have happened... because as a watchman you should know the area you are watching over, as the self-described watch captain you should have even more knowledge of the area..

    And if Martin hadn't decided to come back after he lost him and more than likely jumped him, it would not have happened either.


    its a gated community with 250 town homes, if there's 10 houses on a 100 yard block, that puts it at around 25 blocks worth of houses.. and town homes being fairly skinny with not alot of yard.. i could that number of 10 being maybe 10 on each side of the street or 20 on each block equaling around 10 blocks... there is no reason he should not have been able to give a general perimeter of where the subject ran toward
    And when was the last time you were there? Never?. Exactly.
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    Zimmerman or his defenders have yet to prove what Martin was doing that was illegal that warranted further scrutiny.

    The jury has spoken and acquitted Zimmerman. But he is still responsible for Martin's death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Even that cannot be absolutely factual. Who's to say that Martin didn't already deceide to attack Zimmerman and would have doubled back and attacked him in his car. While highly unlikely you cannot profess to know exactly what would or would not have happened if... It's pure speculation as likely or unlikely as we'd have the scenarios. Again, while I'm in agreement that Zimmerman likely would not have left his car without a gun, even that is not fact. The only facts are what actually took place.
    The situation of attacking him in his car would clearly have defended Zimmerman's actions. His leaving his vehicle to follow Trayvon led to the confrontation. It doesn't matter to me who actually instigated the fight. Zimmerman leaving his vehicle led up to the possibility of it even happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Zimmerman or his defenders have yet to prove what Martin was doing that was illegal that warranted further scrutiny.

    The jury has spoken and acquitted Zimmerman. But he is still responsible for Martin's death.
    And Zimmerman's critics have yet to prove what he did was illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post


    He has the right to follow. Nowhere does it indicate that he had made any effort to apprehend Martin.

    I have the right to walk the street without being harassed. If I feel I am being followed one of two things is going to occur. Either I am going to pull out my cell phone and call police and tell them I am being followed and I fear for my safety, OR I am going to turn around and ask why are you following me? More than likely the second event wouldn't occur unless I was on a busy sidwalk, or until after I get my concealed carry permit, if I decide to.

    Frankly, how would any of you white guys feel if you were in a neighborhood and a black guy started following you? You all want to dance around the race issue but there it is. Trayvon was a black kid in a white neighborhood, Zimmerman immediately labeled him as suspicious and started following him, WHY?


    The whole thing stinks and is a pathetic issue of what fear will make people do.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And Zimmerman's critics have yet to prove what he did was illegal.
    Something doesn't have to be illegal for it not to be right. Look at your vfd for example, it isn't illegal but what you do certainly isn't right.

    The fact remains that if Zimmerman stays in his vehicle no confrontation would likely have occurred. he got out of his vehicle to play hero, got his *** kicked and ended up killing Trayvon over it. So even if the jury acquitted him he is still responsible.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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