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Thread: If the demographic fits, hope they don't acquit

  1. #41
    Forum Member WVFD705's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Unless you sat in the courtroom for the entire case and heard all the evidence presented....you are all conjecturing.

    The "facts" were discussed in court. The news stations report (for the most part) their versions of those "facts".
    Very true. What the media reports and what actually goes on in court are often two very different things.

    I have been involved in many trials as a prosecutor. Sometimes because of typographical errors, sometimes because of a general lack or misunderstanding of the law as it applies to the case, and sometimes because of a bias or the desire to make the story more compelling, the facts and the results of the cases were often conflicting with the stories covering them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I didn't speculate at all.

    FACT: Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.

    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    Yet the timeline in the link I posted reads slightly differently:
    7:12

    When asked by the dispatcher, Zimmerman agrees not to follow Trayvon, and his heavy breathing ends. "He ran," says Zimmerman. Even if running slowly, Trayvon could have made it to Brandy's house in a half a minute. It was only 100 yards from the truck.

    7:13

    Zimmerman is hesitant to give out his address. "I don't know where this kid is." He looks around to see where Trayvon has gone, fails to spot him, terminates his call, and heads back to the truck.

    7:14 - 7:16

    These are the missing two minutes. After receiving a call from Dee-Dee, Trayvon has come back to confront Zimmerman. Their final confrontation takes place 70 yards from Brandy's townhouse and only 30 yards from Zimmerman's truck. No one hunted Trayvon down. Although he has kept the drink and candy on his person, Trayvon does not have a blunt with him.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I didn't speculate at all.

    FACT: Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.

    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    You originally stated that Zimmerman provoked the incident when he "got involved physically". Who says he got involved physically without being attacked first? We just don't know exactly what happened immediately prior to it getting physical. This is why I interpreted your statement as speculation. Don't get me wrong; I don't deny your right to do that. I did it myself. I just found it odd that you mentioned it when others did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The FBI found no evidence of the events being a hate crime.
    Fully aware of that.

    But when has facts stopped Holder and the DOJ.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet the timeline in the link I posted reads slightly differently:
    I took a look at that link. A bunch of stuff from "independent contributors" to a couple of web sites. Credibility level is pretty low in my book. Who exactly are these independent contributors? What are their qualifications? Who does the fact checking before their contributions are posted online and who do they answer to? Probably no one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Reckless endangerment - He provoked and altercation with another person, whom he suspected of "being on drugs"; a logical outcome would be a physical altercation.
    This is speculation. We just do not know if he provoked the altercation of not. Cause and affect are not evidence or provocation. It may very well have been as you imply, but short of actual evidence, this is pure speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Obstructing governmental affairs - After reporting a suspicious action, Mr. Zimmerman refused to obey the orders given on behalf of law enforcement.
    This is yet another gross overstatement of the actual facts. The dispatcher (with no authority to give lawful instructions) when told Zimmerman was following Martin said, "We don't need you to do that". That is far from refusing an order given on the behalf of LE.

    You don't have to like the outcome and I'd go so far as to say I'd support laws that could prevent the cause and affect of Zimmermans' actions, but if we all scrutinized every shooting case this heavily there'd be a lot of criminals walking the streets. Regardless of his poor decisions I do not think Zimmerman poses a threat to anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    FACT: Zimmerman contacted the police and was told by the dispatcher not to get involved.
    This is not factual. THe dispatcher told Zimmerman "you don't have to do that", when he said he was going to follow Martin.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    FACT: Zimmerman disobeyed that directive, got out of his car, approached Trayvon, and a fight ensued.
    It was not a directive but merely a liability reducing statement to ensure the dispatch center was not held liable. Thankfully the dispatcher said that, because without a doubt, had it not been said, they'd be high on the lawsuit list, regardless of their inability to lawfully order someone to stop doing anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    .
    So if you follow the logical sequence, Zimmerman exiting his car and approaching Trayvon provoked this incident. I don't care who started the fight, and we will never know for sure who did, the mere fact that Zimmerman, against the dispatchers directive got out of his car and approached Trayvon, provoked the confrontation.
    As I said above, cause and affect are not evidence of provocation. While Zimmerman could have avoided all this and Martin would still be alive, that doesn't make his following him a crime (under current law).

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I disagree. Zimmerman took one look, saw a black kid and decided the ONLY reason the kid could possibly be in the area was to rob houses. He basically said that to dispatcher. The incident was about race from the first minute.

    I do believe that the jury decision, unlike some other verdicts, was NOT based on race.
    Trayvon evidently took one look at Zimmerman and made a similar prejudiced decision, ergo the "Cracker" remark. This is nothing more than a thug and an idiot colliding. And that leads to bad things happening.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitFF View Post
    I have detected a lot of racism in response to this verdict. From the right wing media, on my Facebook feed, etc. If Martin were your son there is no way you would accept this verdict.

    I was on duty in America's arson capital when this verdict came down. A lot of my coworkers shook their heads, as did I (a white guy), but it didn't prompt civil unrest. I think it should have.
    If there's any racism, it's from the left. You think it should prompt civil unrest????? I'd have to say that line of thinking is idiocy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sorry, he didn't start anything. You may not like the truth here but if Zimmerman DOES STAY IN HIS CAR this event does NOT occur.

    Your insinuation that because he is out, walking back from the store, he provoked the incident is frankly ridiculous. Once again, ZIMMERMAN provoked the incident playing super hero.
    Uh, if Zimmerman broke off contact and was heading back to his car, then it's on Trayvon. ESPECIALLY if HE initiated PHYSICAL CONTACT. I can follow someone all day and they have NO right to physical contact. (not that I would) Trayvon had his phone and was texting that girl, so he had a way to report what was happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Uh, if Zimmerman broke off contact and was heading back to his car, then it's on Trayvon. ESPECIALLY if HE initiated PHYSICAL CONTACT. I can follow someone all day and they have NO right to physical contact. (not that I would) Trayvon had his phone and was texting that girl, so he had a way to report what was happening.
    All these facts do nothing but get in the way of a good racial narrative.

    And I would bet every dollar that I have that the DOJ will bring charges.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    All these facts do nothing but get in the way of a good racial narrative.

    And I would bet every dollar that I have that the DOJ will bring charges.
    I'd take that bet. They don't have anything pointing to a racial motivation. Zimmerman's own ethnicity won't play well in a race only fight over that case, not to mention his previous work involved with helping black youth. He might have been stupid, pumped up on false security (gun) and even possibly a vigilante but racist? Not likely to gain real traction. Not to mention the cliche it would be for the DOJ to bring this up given the Presidents' own ethnicity and his propensity to stick his foot in his mouth before getting all the facts. I think he's done with this one and that means so is the DOJ. Then again, I could be wrong...

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    I agree with my Brother from MidCoast Maine...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    This we agree on, but at the current time, there was/is no law preventing any of the known actions Zimmerman took. While this appears to have gone "bad", if good people are in fear of doing something and everyone "stays out of it", we all will be a little less safe.

    Much as the police hate to admit it, the US cannot afford to have everyone say "not my problem" whenever they see potential or actual criminal activity. Similarly, we the FD can't afford to have the citizens ignore their neighbors. Heck if it weren't for decent neighbors some places likely would have no chance of surviving a home regardless of their FD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    Consequently... if Trayvon kept walking, or chosen a different route, no confrontation could have occurred.
    johnsb likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    It appears we have all turned into a group of "firehouse lawyers"...
    scfire86 likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    It appears we have all turned into a group of "firehouse lawyers"...
    "Turned into"? Hell I've been a practicing firehouse attorney for over 25 years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I'd take that bet. They don't have anything pointing to a racial motivation. Zimmerman's own ethnicity won't play well in a race only fight over that case, not to mention his previous work involved with helping black youth. He might have been stupid, pumped up on false security (gun) and even possibly a vigilante but racist? Not likely to gain real traction. Not to mention the cliche it would be for the DOJ to bring this up given the Presidents' own ethnicity and his propensity to stick his foot in his mouth before getting all the facts. I think he's done with this one and that means so is the DOJ. Then again, I could be wrong...
    I just can't see Holder resisting the pressure that he will take to bring charges.

    And I fully agree that they basically have nothing, but after all we are dealing with a DOJ that had no issues with a group of Black Panthers in combat garb "hanging out" outside of a polling place.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you slice it...If Zimmerman stays out of it no confrontation occurs.
    Martin had the same choice not to double back after he had out run Zimmerman.

    He had the same choice not to push the issue and actually initiate the confrontation.

    The fact is there was zero evidence to indicate that Zimmerman has initiated anything and plenty of evidence to indicate that he had reason to fear for his life.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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