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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I say, it is fairly comical you get branded paranoid when you state a concern that registration will lead to confiscation. Yet not all that long ago, in the state of Louisiana, that very thing happened.
    After a quick Google search of that topic it turns out many of those weapons have been returned. And many of those that haven't been returned are because the owners couldn't prove they were legally obtained.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    That's not exactly why the 2nd Amendment was written and while they used conscription to define the "well regulated militia" they also ruled that individual ownership was absolute. The Founding Fathers recognized in many other works, the only free people were those who were able to defend themselves against any government, their won especially as was their immediate history at that time.
    As I also pointed out numerous times. The Founding Fathers also had no problem requiring registration and periodic inspection as being part of the "well regulated" militia.

    Yet you are opposed to that being part of the contemporary requirement for ownership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no issues with background checks for guns purchased from a dealer, or even at a gun show.

    My issue is the requirement for a check if I want to sell my gun to Joe down the street, or give Joe my gun. I also have issues with expanding the disqualifier beyond a felony, and have serious issues with banning the sales of anything but a fully automatic and large capacity clips.
    If you want to sell or give your car or boat or motorcycle to "Joe down the street" you have to register that transaction with the government. Where is the outrage? Why do you comply? You can't legally give or sell prescription drugs to Joe. Neither you nor Joe could legally transport or sell hazardous cargo without proper permits. In many places, you and Joe couldn't even get together and have a yard sale without government permission. It is illogical and inconsistent to enact, enforce and abide by laws like the ones I mentioned above and then turn around and resist so strongly any (constitutionally mandated) regulations on guns.

    The constitution grants the (well regulated) right to bear arms. It does not anywhere grant the right to wanton buying, selling trading or gifting of arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    If you want to sell or give your car or boat or motorcycle to "Joe down the street" you have to register that transaction with the government.
    And all of those items have been used to commit crimes as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    After a quick Google search of that topic it turns out many of those weapons have been returned. And many of those that haven't been returned are because the owners couldn't prove they were legally obtained.
    Legally obtained? You know that is completely ridiculous. How many people would have the receipt of a fire arm they bought last year? Let alone of a fire arm the inherited?
    Shows you just how asinine that requirement is.
    There wouldon't even be this issue if those sworn to uphold the law didn't effing break it! What's your response to that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Why should the onus be to prove a law will work before passing it? That standard does not apply in any other area; why should it apply to gun regulation?
    Because they are imposing on leagal ownership and restricting the rights of law abiding citizens. The burden to show why something is required in law is nearly always placed on those sponsoring the legislation. Look at what it took to make Bath Salts illegal and why when they're ever-changing the LE community cannot keep up.
    Well right now the ownership of fully automatic firearms is very heavily regulated and no one is trying to change that to less restriction. So we are in between right now. See if you can find a recent crime where a legally owned Class 3 firearm was used.

    That's not exactly why the 2nd Amendment was written and while they used conscription to define the "well regulated militia" they also ruled that individual ownership was absolute. The Founding Fathers recognized in many other works, the only free people were those who were able to defend themselves against any government, their won especially as was their immediate history at that time.[/QUOTE]

    I did remmeber incorrectly the wording of the amenment. I thought it stated national defense. It does not. It states "security of a free state". Honestly I'm not sure how that drastically changes the debate.

    You say that regulations "impose on legal ownership". So what if they impose? The constitution states that the militia be well regulated. You say regulations "restrict the rights of law abiding citizens. Not true. The right to bear arms will still be there. The right would merely be regulated as provided for in the constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And all of those items have been used to commit crimes as well.
    True, but I don't see that fact as having anything to do with the current debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Legally obtained? You know that is completely ridiculous. How many people would have the receipt of a fire arm they bought last year? Let alone of a fire arm the inherited?
    Shows you just how asinine that requirement is.
    There wouldon't even be this issue if those sworn to uphold the law didn't effing break it! What's your response to that?
    I can prove I am legal owner of all the firearms I own? Can you? Even the ones I've purchased from a private party I did so through an FFL dealer. Just like my cars, my homes, etc.

    If registration was performed as it was allowed under the Founding Fathers those records would be available so those firearms could be returned to their rightful owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    There wouldon't even be this issue if those sworn to uphold the law didn't effing break it! What's your response to that?
    They should be punished accordingly on a case by case basis.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-12-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    True, but I don't see that fact as having anything to do with the current debate.
    There is an analogy there. Weak at best. I admit that.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Legally obtained? You know that is completely ridiculous. How many people would have the receipt of a fire arm they bought last year? Let alone of a fire arm the inherited?
    Shows you just how asinine that requirement is.
    There wouldon't even be this issue if those sworn to uphold the law didn't effing break it! What's your response to that?
    I believe there should be requirements for gun owners to retain documentation of the purchase. I believe there should be requirements for dealers to retain documentation of all sales. I don't believe this constitutes an undue hardship for either party. We all keep drawers, cabinets, boxes, etc to retain records for all manner of dealings in our daily lives. No reason a responsible adult should not be able to do this. If this is too much of a challenge for any given individual, maybe he/she SHOULDN"T be allowed to have guns.

    For the record I totally object to the illegal confiscation of guns in New Orleans. Not because of the second amendment but because it constituted illegal search and seizure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    cj, don't you love that mindset?
    Your childish BS, once again shows you've come to your useful end of this debate. You know full well no one is saying laws shouldn't be passed because they won't be 100% effective. What we're asking is to show the law abiding citizens who will see tighter restrictions imposed on them, where you see the benefit and allow them to weigh this. The anti-gun movement is totally basing itself on fear and have yet to provide any details on how this might even remotely have a measurable effect. We can't even begin to have a real debate on the merit if you won't show what those merits are.

    Using your childish logic, why doesn't the UN just ban war and killing? Ban poverty? Ban starvation and dehydration? I think we call agree these issues are worthy, why not just make some rules?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    After a quick Google search of that topic it turns out many of those weapons have been returned. And many of those that haven't been returned are because the owners couldn't prove they were legally obtained.
    How could they if they were purchased in a private sale? I do see this as a hole that should be corrected, but...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    What we're asking is to show the law abiding citizens who will see tighter restrictions imposed on them, where you see the benefit and allow them to weigh this. The anti-gun movement is totally basing itself on fear and have yet to provide any details on how this might even remotely have a measurable effect. We can't even begin to have a real debate on the merit if you won't show what those merits are.
    The pro-gun crowd is basing itself on fear as well. We do know the status quo isn't working.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Using your childish logic, why doesn't the UN just ban war and killing? Ban poverty? Ban starvation and dehydration? I think we call agree these issues are worthy, why not just make some rules?
    I don't know. Why don't you ask them? Though I know they have enacted many programs to address those issue.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    How could they if they were purchased in a private sale? I do see this as a hole that should be corrected, but...
    Then they can't prove those weapons belong to them. What's to stop me from walking into the NOPD and saying they have my (fill in the blank) weapon and could they return it to me. I can just keep doing that until I give them a make, model, and caliber that fits that description.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I can prove I am legal owner of all the firearms I own? Can you? Even the ones I've purchased from a private party I did so through an FFL dealer. Just like my cars, my homes, etc.

    If registration was performed as it was allowed under the Founding Fathers those records would be available so those firearms could be returned to their rightful owners.



    They should be punished accordingly on a case by case basis.
    Actually no, as 2 of them are over a hundred years old that I have from my great grandpa. But why should I need yo prove anything? If they are in my possesion, not reported as stolen, and I'm a legal gun owner, that should be plenty. But I guess to some, because I'm a gun owner, I must be automatically guilty, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Actually no, as 2 of them are over a hundred years old that I have from my great grandpa. But why should I need yo prove anything? If they are in my possesion, not reported as stolen, and I'm a legal gun owner, that should be plenty. But I guess to some, because I'm a gun owner, I must be automatically guilty, right?
    For the same reason you need to prove you own your car, boat, home etc.

    Are you guilty of something because you have to show proof that you own of those?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    You say regulations "restrict the rights of law abiding citizens. Not true. The right to bear arms will still be there. The right would merely be regulated as provided for in the constitution.
    I've not said "restricts the rights" on law abiding people. I, understand and agree that many restrictions do not infringe on the right, but some do. I've said the burden lies with those proposing legislation to show the benefits outweigh the restrictions placed on law abiding citizens.

    How about this, a true national gun registry, but also a national fingerprint and DNA database? Why not? A few years back the teachers fought hard against fingerprinting in the name of reducing child rapists in schools, as they felt the fingerprinting was requiring they prove they were innocent vs. the government proving someone is guilty. Same principle. Go after the criminals without making legal citizens suffer by guilty until proven innocent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then they can't prove those weapons belong to them. What's to stop me from walking into the NOPD and saying they have my (fill in the blank) weapon and could they return it to me. I can just keep doing that until I give them a make, model, and caliber that fits that description.
    Chain of evidence requirements. Period. That was way to easy....
    But then again, they did in fact break the law confiscating them. I guess it would be to much for them to follow the rest of the rules....

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    For the same reason you need to prove you own your car, boat, home etc.

    Are you guilty of something because you have to show proof that you own of those?
    They all have deeds and titles. You probably should have used a relative example, say a welder, or a TV.
    Next....

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then they can't prove those weapons belong to them. What's to stop me from walking into the NOPD and saying they have my (fill in the blank) weapon and could they return it to me. I can just keep doing that until I give them a make, model, and caliber that fits that description.
    The NOPD report stating they removed firearms from the owner isn't enough? They have records, they tried to turn it all over to the feds who slammed the door in their face. If I steal something from your house, do you have to prove you owned it before it's returned? No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As I also pointed out numerous times. The Founding Fathers also had no problem requiring registration and periodic inspection as being part of the "well regulated" militia.

    Yet you are opposed to that being part of the contemporary requirement for ownership.
    My only opposition is more of an overall opposition to any step that takes us closer to the liberal end game of disarming legal citizens. On it's own and with proof that further restrictions are not possible, I'd be for all background checks and full registration. The issue with background checks is that it's easily shown the very limited effect they would have had on our crime problem and the list of who might be excluded gets very murky (generally by the same group proposing the checks).

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    For the same reason you need to prove you own your car, boat, home etc.

    Are you guilty of something because you have to show proof that you own of those?
    You do not need to have proof that you own your car, boat, camper, or even home. If it was paid for with cash, and purchased solely for use on private land and will not be used on public roads or waterways, boats, cars, campers, etc. do not need to be registered.

    Your home does not have to be registered. If you own land, it has to be recorded to prove ownership, but there is nothing stating that a house has to be "registered". Land only needs to be recorded if ownership is to be transferred and so that a property tax can be levied.

    But once again, you are trying to bypass the fact that you cannot point to proof positive that universal background checks will not lead to national registry and confiscation. If you get in touch with your representatives you will find that in the passage of a law, if a plausible negative effect is brought up, it must either be amended to address the problem, proven that the negative effect will only effect a small minority of the population covered by the legislation, provide a pathway for appeal, or it will have to be dropped and completely re-written.

    Why haven't universal checks been legislated into effect?
    - Because those pushing for them want a registry.
    - Because it cannot be shown where universal checks would be any more effective than current checks.
    - Because it has been shown that current laws are not being enforced, so creating stricter regulations cannot be assumed to be more effectively enforced
    - Because it does not address any of the current problems with gun violence
    - Cannot include mental health issues due to HIPAA
    - Will do nothing new for "straw purchases" that are already felonies

    In 2012 there were over 70,000 felonies involving firearms that were not prosecuted even though the perpetrator was known and identified. That is how many people applied to illegally purchase firearms that are ineligible to purchase them which is a felony. Only 0.1% of those felonies were prosecuted. Go ahead and say "well those people weren't able to by a gun then", because I will laugh at you and explain how because those people were allowed to leave the store and find someone else to buy the gun for them or purchase one some other way.

    Our current gun laws are not effective because they are not enforced. Adding new laws that will not be enforced is not going to change that. Enforce what we have and see how much of a problem there is left. Then we can talk about further regulation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    They all have deeds and titles. You probably should have used a relative example, say a welder, or a TV.
    Next....
    Why shouldn't firearms have the same documentation required. I have the receipts for my current home appliances as well.

    If your dad or granddad had given you a car and you didn't change the registration, what would happen if you were caught driving it? There's probably a good chance it would be impounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Chain of evidence requirements. Period. That was way to easy....
    But then again, they did in fact break the law confiscating them. I guess it would be to much for them to follow the rest of the rules....
    Agreed. They did break the law and should be punished accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I believe there should be requirements for gun owners to retain documentation of the purchase. I believe there should be requirements for dealers to retain documentation of all sales. I don't believe this constitutes an undue hardship for either party. We all keep drawers, cabinets, boxes, etc to retain records for all manner of dealings in our daily lives. No reason a responsible adult should not be able to do this. If this is too much of a challenge for any given individual, maybe he/she SHOULDN"T be allowed to have guns.
    Well it's not a requirement, so I don't and it would be impossible to do such. But face it, you are all about registration because you know damn well it leads to confiscation. History is littered with the affects. I'm not sure what constitutes under hardship in your book, but obtain proff of purchase for a 100+ year old gun from a man 40 years dead meets that requirement in my eyes. But I get the feeling that if that where to become law, you would be the first calling for confiscation of all guns that an owner does not have what you consider proper documentation.
    For the record I totally object to the illegal confiscation of guns in New Orleans. Not because of the second amendment but because it constituted illegal search and seizure.
    Oh, so violation of the 4th amendment is bad, but it's ok to trump the 2nd?
    What have you offered this debate in the form of constructive ideas that doesn't involve more laws, rules, regulation, bans, hardship, or restrictions on the law abiding gun owner?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Why shouldn't firearms have the same documentation required. I have the receipts for my current home appliances as well.
    You have hundred year old washer? Or any other antique for that matter?
    If your dad or granddad had given you a car and you didn't change the registration, what would happen if you were caught driving it? There's probably a good chance it would be impounded.
    Your hypocrisy here caused me to laugh and brought tear to my eye! It is hilarious how quickly you jump and anyone else for changing the subject, yet her you are trying to compare an antique car to a firearm.


    Agreed. They did break the law and should be punished accordingly.
    You know as well as I do, oh wait, I am assuming, we all know what that is. But I degrees. The reason for my vehicle registration is nothing more than a way for the government to collect a yearly tax on it. Period.
    Next..
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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